TED2012
Jon Ronson: Strange answers to the psychopath test
Jon Ronson：精神病测试的另类答案
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正常和发疯之间是否有明确的界限呢？在这个毛骨悚然的演讲里，Jon Ronson，《精神病测试》的作者，为我们揭开了正常和发疯之间的灰色地带。（由Julian Treasure现场制作音效和Evan Grant制作动画）
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmaker
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
This story starts: I was at a friend's house,
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故事的开头是这样的：我在一个朋友家里
00:19
and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual,
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在她的架子上有一本《DSM手册》
00:23
which is the manual of mental disorders.
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就是《精神疾病诊断与统计手册》
00:26
It lists every known mental disorder.
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它列举了所有已知的精神疾病
00:29
And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet.
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而在50年代的时候，它还是本苗条的小册子
00:32
And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger,
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然后一步一步被增加成大胖子
00:35
and now it's 886 pages long.
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现在已经有886页厚了
00:38
And it lists currently 374 mental disorders.
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目前手册列举了374种精神疾病
00:42
So I was leafing through it,
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所以我大致翻阅了一下
00:44
wondering if I had any mental disorders,
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好奇我是否有任何精神疾病
00:46
and it turns out I've got 12.
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结果显示我得了12种
00:49
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
00:50
I've got generalized anxiety disorder,
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我得了广泛性焦虑症
00:52
which is a given.
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这是与生俱来的
00:54
I've got nightmare disorder,
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我还得了梦魇症
00:55
which is categorized
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这是根据分类得来的
00:57
if you have recurrent dreams of being pursued or declared a failure --
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只要你周期性地梦见被追逐或者被宣判失败
01:01
and all my dreams involve people chasing me down the street
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而我的梦里都有人在街道上追赶我
01:05
going, "You're a failure."
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向我叫道,"你太失败了"
01:07
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
01:09
I've got parent-child relational problems,
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我还有亲子关系问题
01:11
which I blame my parents for.
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这得归咎于我父母
01:14
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
01:15
I'm kidding. I'm not kidding.
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我开玩笑的，我还真没开玩笑
01:18
I'm kidding.
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好吧，开玩笑的
01:19
And I've got malingering.
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我还得了诈病症
01:21
And I think it's actually quite rare
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我觉得同时拥有诈病症和广泛性焦虑症
01:23
to have both malingering and generalized anxiety disorder,
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这并不是很常见
01:26
because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious.
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因为诈病症会让我觉得非常焦虑
01:29
Anyway I was looking through this book,
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总之我浏览了这本书
01:30
wondering if I was much crazier than I thought I was,
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惊讶我比我想象中还要不正常
01:33
or maybe it's not a good idea to diagnose yourself with a mental disorder
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又或许给自己诊断精神病并不是一个很好的想法
01:37
if you're not a trained professional,
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如果你不是一个受过培训的专家
01:39
or maybe the psychiatry profession has a strange desire
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又或许精神病学专家有一种怪癖
01:43
to label what's essentially normal human behavior as a mental disorder.
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想要将正常的人类行为定义为精神疾病
01:49
I didn't know which of these things was true,
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我不知道这哪些是真的
01:50
but I thought it was kind of interesting.
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但我觉得还蛮有趣的
01:52
And I thought maybe I should meet a critic of psychiatry
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然后我想我应该和一个精神病学评论家见一面
01:55
to get their view.
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看看他有什么想法
01:56
Which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists.
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所以我就和一个科学论派学者共进午餐
02:01
It was a man called Brian
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他叫Brian
02:03
who runs a crack team of Scientologists
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他管理着一个一流的科学论派团队
02:05
who are determined to destroy psychiatry wherever it lies.
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同时也下定决心捣毁所有的精神医学
02:10
They're called the CCHR.
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他们被称为公民人权委员会（CCHR）
02:11
And I said to him, "Can you prove to me
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我就跟他说,"你能向我证明
02:14
that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that can't be trusted?"
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精神医学是一门不值得信任的伪科学吗？”
02:18
And he said, "Yes, we can prove it to you."
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然后他说，“可以，我证明给你看。”
02:20
And I said, "How?"
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我又问，“怎么证明？”
02:22
And he said, "We're going to introduce you to Tony."
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他说，“我打算介绍Tony给你认识。”
02:26
And I said, "Who's Tony?"
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我问，“谁是Tony？"
02:28
And he said, "Tony's in Broadmoor."
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他说，“Tony现在在布罗德莫。”
02:31
Now Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital.
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布罗德莫，就是布罗德莫精神病院
02:34
It used to be known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane.
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过去被称为精神病犯人的庇护所
02:39
It's where they send the serial killers
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连环杀手就是被送到那里的
02:41
and the people who can't help themselves.
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还有那些无法自控的人
02:43
And I said to Brian, "What did Tony do?"
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我又问Brian，“Tony干过什么事？”
02:46
And he said, "Hardly anything.
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他说，“基本什么也没干
02:49
He beat someone up or something,
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他好像打了人还是其他什么事
02:52
and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence.
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然后他决定装疯以此逃过牢狱之灾
02:57
But he faked it too well, and now he's stuck in Broadmoor
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但他装得太像了，现在就在那里出不来了
03:02
and nobody will believe he's sane.
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但没人相信他是正常的
03:04
Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?"
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你想让我们把你弄进去和Tony见面吗？”
03:08
So I said, "Yes, please."
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然后我说，“嗯，劳烦你了。”
03:10
So I got the train to Broadmoor.
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所以我踏上了前往布罗德莫精神病院的列车
03:12
I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park,
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我开始控制不住在坎普顿公园附近打哈欠
03:16
which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious --
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显然，当狗在焦虑的时候
03:19
they yawn uncontrollably.
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也会情不自禁地打哈欠
03:21
And we got to Broadmoor.
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之后就到了布罗德莫精神病院
03:22
And I got taken through gate after gate after gate after gate
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然后我又不停地穿过一道又一道又一道的大门
03:27
into the wellness center,
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这才进到健康中心那儿
03:29
which is where you get to meet the patients.
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在那里你才能和病人会面
03:30
It looks like a giant Hampton Inn.
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它看起来就像大型的汉普顿酒店
03:34
It's all peach and pine and calming colors.
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到处都是桃子菠萝和让人宁静的颜色
03:38
And the only bold colors are the reds of the panic buttons.
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唯一比较大胆的颜色则是应急按钮上的红色
03:43
And the patients started drifting in.
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然后病人开始挪进来
03:46
And they were quite overweight and wearing sweatpants
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他们看起来很笨重，穿着宽松的裤子
03:51
and quite docile looking.
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倒是挺温顺的样子
03:53
And Brian the Scientologist whispered to me,
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科学论派学者Brian低声跟我说
03:55
"They're medicated,"
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他们这是服药后的效果
03:57
which to the Scientologists is like the worst evil in the world,
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对于科学论派的人来说，这简直就是最残忍的魔鬼
04:01
but I'm thinking it's probably a good idea.
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我倒不觉得是件坏事
04:03
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
04:05
And then Brian said, "Here's Tony."
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然后Brian说，“Tony来了。”
04:08
And a man was walking in.
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然后有个男人走了进来
04:10
And he wasn't overweight, he was in very good physical shape.
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他看起来并不笨重，身材还挺不错
04:14
And he wasn't wearing sweatpants,
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也没有穿宽松的裤子
04:15
he was wearing a pinstriped suit.
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他穿着带有细条纹的西服
04:18
And he had his arm outstretched
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他张开双臂
04:20
like someone out of The Apprentice.
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像《飞黄腾达》里的人一样
04:23
He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit
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他看起来像是想在着装方面显得得体的人
04:25
that would convince me that he was very sane.
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这样似乎会让我相信他是正常人
04:30
And he sat down.
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然后他坐下来
04:31
And I said, "So is it true that you faked your way in here?"
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我说，“你是在这里装疯的对吧？”
04:34
And he said, "Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I beat someone up when I was 17.
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他说，“对，绝对是。我在17岁的时候把别人打伤了
04:38
And I was in prison awaiting trial,
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之后在监狱里等待审判
04:40
and my cellmate said to me,
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我的狱友跟我说
04:42
'You know what you have to do?
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你知道你得做些什么吗
04:43
Fake madness.
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装疯
04:45
Tell them you're mad. You'll get sent to some cushy hospital.
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告诉他们你疯了，你就会被送到某间舒适的医院
04:48
Nurses will bring you pizzas.
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护士会给你带来比萨饼
04:51
You'll have your own Playstation.'"
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你会有自己的PS游戏机。”
04:53
So I said, "Well how did you do it?"
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我又说，“那你是怎么做的？”
04:54
He said, "I asked to see the prison psychiatrist.
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他说，“我要求去见监狱里的精神病专家
04:57
And I'd just seen a film called 'Crash'
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而且我又看过《冲击效应》这部电影
04:59
in which people get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.
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电影里的人用车去撞墙以获得性快感
05:03
So I said to the psychiatrist,
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所以我跟精神病专家说
05:05
'I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'"
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我通过开车撞墙活得性快感。”
05:09
And I said, "What else?"
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我说，“还有吗？”
05:11
He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist
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他说，“哦对了，我告诉那个精神病专家
05:13
that I wanted to watch women as they died
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我喜欢看女人死去
05:17
because it would make me feel more normal."
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因为这让我觉得我比较正常。”
05:19
And I said, "Where'd you get that from?"
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我说，“你这是从哪学来的？”
05:21
He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy
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他说，“哦，从Ted Bundy（连环杀手）的自传
05:23
that they had at the prison library."
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监狱图书馆里有这本书。”
05:25
Anyway he faked madness too well, he said.
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总之，他说他装得太像了
05:29
And they didn't send him to some cushy hospital.
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结果他们没把他送到某间舒适的医院
05:31
They sent him to Broadmoor.
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反而送到了布罗德莫精神病院
05:33
And the minute he got there,
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他到这里的那一刻
05:35
he said he took one look at the place, asked to see the psychiatrist,
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他说他看了下四周的环境，然后要求去见精神病医生
05:38
said, "There's been a terrible misunderstanding.
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说，“这当中有着难以解释的误会
05:40
I'm not mentally ill."
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我并没有任何精神疾病。”
05:42
I said, "How long have you been here for?"
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我问，“你在这待了多长时间了？”
05:44
He said, "Well, if I'd just done my time in prison for the original crime,
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他说，“唉，如果我只在狱中服刑的话
05:49
I'd have got five years.
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我只要待五年
05:50
I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years."
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但我在布罗德莫精神病院已经12年了。”
05:56
Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane
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Tony说，要使别人相信你是正常人是十分困难的
06:00
than it is to convince them you're crazy.
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而使别人相信你疯了则简单得多
06:03
He said, "I thought the best way to seem normal
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他说，“要显得正常，我觉得最好的方法
06:04
would be to talk to people normally about normal things
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就是和他人正常地交谈，聊一聊正常的事物
06:07
like football or what's on TV.
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像足球或电视上的事情
06:09
I subscribe to New Scientist,
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我有订阅《新科学家》这份杂志
06:11
and recently it had an article
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最近他们发表了一篇文章
06:13
about how the U.S. Army was training bumblebees to sniff out explosives.
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关于美国军队训练大黄蜂来侦查爆炸物的
06:18
So I said to a nurse,
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然后我跟护士说
06:18
'Did you know that the U.S. army is training bumblebees
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你知道美国军队正在训练大黄蜂
06:22
to sniff out explosives?'
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来侦查爆炸物吗
06:23
When I read my medical notes,
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当我看到我的医疗记录时
06:25
I saw they'd written:
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我看到他们写到
06:26
'Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'"
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“相信蜜蜂能侦查爆炸物”
06:30
He said, "You know, they're always looking out
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他说，“你知道，他们总是在寻找
06:33
for non-verbal clues to my mental state.
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非言语的线索来判断我的心理状态
06:35
But how do you sit in a sane way?
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但你是如何用正常人的方式坐的？
06:39
How do you cross your legs in a sane way?
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你又如何用正常人的方式翘脚的？
06:41
It's just impossible."
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这简直就是天荒夜谈。”
06:43
And when Tony said that to me,
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当Tony告诉我这些的时候
06:44
I thought to myself, "Am I sitting like a journalist?
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我心想，“我坐得像个记者吗
06:48
Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?"
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我翘脚翘得像个记者吗？”
06:51
He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me
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他说，“我的邻居一边住着斯托克威尔扼杀者案的凶手
06:57
and I've got the 'Tiptoe Through the Tulips' rapist on the other side of me.
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另一边住着整天哼唱着踮起脚尖穿过郁金香花丛的强奸犯
07:00
So I tend to stay in my room a lot because I find them quite frightening.
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因为他们其实挺可怕的，所以我大部分时间是在自己房间的
07:04
And they take that as a sign of madness.
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但他们将此当作发疯的征兆
07:06
They say it proves that I'm aloof and grandiose."
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他们说这表明我冷漠并浮夸。”
07:09
So only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers
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所以只有在这里，不想和连环杀手交往
07:14
be a sign of madness.
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才是发疯的征兆
07:15
Anyway he seemed completely normal to me -- but what did I know?
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总之他对我来说完全正常——但我又知道些什么呢
07:19
And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden.
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当我回到家时我给他的临床医生Anthony Maden发了电邮
07:22
I said, "What's the story?"
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我问，“这里面有什么故事吗？”
07:23
And he said, "Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness to get out of a prison sentence
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他说，“对，我们知道Tony装疯以逃牢狱之灾
07:29
because his hallucinations that had seemed quite cliché to begin with
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因为起初他陈述的老掉牙的幻想
07:33
just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor.
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在他踏入布罗德莫精神病院那刻便了无踪影
07:36
However, we have assessed him.
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但是，我们对他进行了测试
07:38
And we have determined that what he is is a psychopath."
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所以我们才决定把他诊断为精神病患者
07:42
And in fact, faking madness
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事实上，装疯
07:44
is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath.
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正是一种精神病患者狡猾和控制欲强的表现行为
07:49
It's on the checklist: cunning and manipulative.
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它就写在检核表上：狡猾且控制欲强
07:51
So faking your brain going wrong
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所以假装大脑出了问题
07:53
is evidence that your brain has gone wrong.
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就是你大脑真的出问题的证据
07:56
And I spoke to other experts,
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然后我又跟其他专家交流了
07:58
and they said the pinstriped suit -- classic psychopath.
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他们说带条纹的西服——典型的精神病患者
08:02
Speaks to items one and two on the checklist --
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证明了检核表上的第一和第二项——
08:04
glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth.
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口若悬河，迷人外表和自恋的浮夸感
08:08
And I said, "Well, what, he didn't want to hang out with the other patients?"
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我又说，“好吧，那他不想和其他病人来往又怎么说呢？”
08:11
Classic psychopath -- it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy.
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典型精神病患者——这证明了浮夸和缺乏同理心
08:16
So all the things that had seemed most normal about Tony
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所以那些对于Tony来说都是十分正常的事
08:20
was evidence, according to his clinician,
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都是病证，根据他的医生的说法
08:22
that he was mad in this new way.
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这是一种新型的发疯
08:24
He was a psychopath.
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他就是个精神病患者
08:26
And his clinician said to me,
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然后他的医生又跟我说
08:28
"If you want to know more about psychopaths,
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“如果你想多一些了解精神病患者
08:30
you can go on a psychopath spotting course
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你可以去参加“观察精神病患者课程”
08:33
run by Robert Hare who invented the psychopath checklist."
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是由发明“病态人格检核表”的Robert Hare授课的
08:36
So I did.
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我还真参加了
08:37
I went on a psychopath spotting course,
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我报名参加了“观察精神病患者课程”
08:39
and I am now a certified --
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现在我是一名持证的
08:43
and I have to say, extremely adept --
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不得不说，还挺资深的
08:46
psychopath spotter.
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精神病患者观察员
08:48
So here's the statistics:
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这有些数据：
08:51
One in a hundred regular people is a psychopath.
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100个普通正常人当中就有一个精神病患者
08:56
So there's 1,500 people in his room.
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而这个大厅里有1500人
08:59
Fifteen of you are psychopaths.
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所以当中有15个人是精神病患者
09:05
Although that figure rises to four percent
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并且这个比例会在CEO和商业领导者中
09:07
of CEO's and business leaders.
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上升到4%
09:10
So I think there's a very good chance
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所以我觉得这是非常难得的机会
09:13
there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room.
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在这个大厅里约有30到40名精神病患者
09:18
It could be carnage by the end of the night.
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可能在今晚结束的时候会有大屠杀
09:21
(Laughter) (Laughs)
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（笑声）
09:24
Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless
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Hare解释说原因来自资本主义的冷酷无情
09:30
rewards psychopathic behavior --
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造就了精神疾病的行为
09:33
the lack of empathy, the glibness,
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缺乏同理心，口若悬河
09:38
cunning, manipulative.
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狡猾，控制欲强
09:40
In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless,
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事实上，或许冷酷无情的资本主义
09:43
is a physical manifestation of psychopathy.
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正是精神疾病的物质表现
09:47
It's like a form of psychopathy
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这也是精神疾病的一种形式
09:49
that's come down to affect us all.
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归根到底会影响着我们
09:53
And Hare said to me, "You know what? Forget about some guy at Broadmoor
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Hare还跟我说，“你知道吗？别再想布罗德莫精神病院里
09:56
who may or may not have faked madness.
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哪个可能装疯，哪个是真疯
09:57
Who cares? That's not a big story.
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谁在乎呢？那并不重要，
09:59
The big story," he said, "is corporate psychopathy.
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重要的是，”他接着说，“是企业型变态人格
10:02
You want to go and interview yourself some corporate psychopaths."
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你可以亲自去采访一些'企业里的精神病患者'。”
10:06
So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people.
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所以我就试了下。我给安然公司（Enron）写了信
10:09
I said, "Could I come and interview you in prison
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我说，“我能来你们这并在狱中采访下你们
10:11
to find out it you're psychopaths?"
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看看你们是不是精神病患者吗？”
10:13
And they didn't reply.
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之后就杳无音讯了
10:17
So I changed tack.
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所以我换了另一种方式
10:20
I emailed "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap,
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我电邮了“杀手艾尔”Dunlap
10:23
the asset stripper from the 1990s.
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90年代开始的资产掠夺者
10:26
He would come into failing businesses and close down 30 percent of the workforce,
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他能让企业倒闭并失去30%的劳动力
10:31
just turn American towns into ghost towns.
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他能将美国的城镇变成荒凉之地
10:34
And I emailed him and I said,
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所以我给他发了电邮说道
10:36
"I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly
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“我相信您有一颗独特异常的大脑
10:38
that makes you special
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使您变得如此出众
10:40
and interested in the predatory spirit and fearless.
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您崇尚掠夺精神并且无所畏惧
10:45
Can I come and interview you
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那我能采访下您
10:46
about your special brain anomaly?"
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关于你那颗特别独特的大脑吗？”
10:48
And he said, "Come on over."
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然后他说，“过来吧。”
10:52
So I went to Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion
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所以我去了他佛罗里达的大豪宅
10:55
that was filled with sculptures of predatory animals.
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到处都是食肉动物的雕塑
10:59
There were lions and tigers.
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还有狮子和老虎
11:02
He was taking me through the garden.
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他带着我穿过花园
11:03
There were falcons and eagles.
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那儿有猎鹰和老鹰
11:06
He was saying to me, "Over there you've got sharks."
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他跟我说，“在那儿你能看到鲨鱼。”
11:08
He was saying this in a less effeminate way.
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他说这话的语气还挺霸气的
11:11
"You've got more sharks and you've got tigers."
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“你还会看到更多的鲨鱼和老虎”
11:16
It was like Narnia.
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那里就像纳尼亚王国
11:18
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
11:22
And then we went into his kitchen.
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之后我们来到他的厨房
11:24
Now Al Dunlap would be brought in to save failing companies.
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现在Al Dunlap会被聘请去拯救那些濒临破产的公司
11:28
He'd close down 30 percent of the workforce.
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他会将劳动力减少30%
11:31
And he'd quite often fire people with a joke.
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他经常会用开玩笑的口吻炒别人鱿鱼
11:34
For instance, one famous story about him,
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举个例子，一个关于他的经典传闻
11:37
somebody came up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car."
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有人找到他，跟他说，“我刚给自己买了新车。”
11:40
And he said, "You may have a new car,
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他说，“你或许有了一辆新车，
11:42
but I'll tell you what you don't have, a job."
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但我告诉你，你没有的，是一份工作。”
11:47
So in his kitchen -- he was standing there with his wife, Judy,
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话说在厨房——他正和妻子Judy站在一起
11:50
and his bodyguard Sean -- and I said, "You know how I said in my email
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还有他的保镖Sean，然后我会说，“你记得我在电邮里写的
11:53
that you might have a special brain anomaly that makes you special?"
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关于你有一颗让你出众的独特奇异的大脑吗？”
11:57
He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing theory.
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他说，“记得，这说法还真不赖
11:58
It's like Star Trek. You're going where no man has gone before."
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感觉就像《星际迷航》一样。现在还没人做到像你这样。”
12:02
And I said, "Well, some psychologists might say
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然后我又说，“其实，一些心理学家或许会说
12:09
that this makes you ... " (Mumbles)
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这颗大脑让你变成...”（ 喃喃而语）
12:12
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
12:14
And he said, "What?"
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他紧接着问，“啥？”
12:16
And I said, "A psychopath."
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我说，“一个疯子。”
12:18
And I said, "I've got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket.
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我接着说，“我口袋里有张清单列举了些精神病患特征
12:22
Can I go through them with you?"
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我能和你将这些过一遍吗？”
12:24
And he looked intrigued despite himself,
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尽管他自己看起来很迷惑
12:27
and he said, "Okay, go on."
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但他还是说，“行，继续。”
12:28
And I said, "Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth."
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我说，“那开始吧。自我价值的浮夸感。”
12:32
Which, I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny
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就这个，我得说，他还挺难去否认的
12:34
because he was standing underneath a giant oil painting of himself.
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因为他就站在一幅巨大的油画自画像下面
12:37
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
12:42
He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!"
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他说，“好吧，你总要相信自己对吧！”
12:45
And I said, "Manipulative."
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我又接着，“控制欲强。”
12:48
He said, "That's leadership."
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他说，“这叫领导能力。”
12:51
And I said, "Shallow affect:
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我接着，“淡化影响：
12:53
an inability to experience a range of emotions."
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无法承受一系列的情绪波动
12:55
He said, "Who wants to be weighed down by some nonsense emotions?"
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他说，“谁又想被无意义的情绪波动给压倒呢？”
12:59
So he was going down the psychopathic checklist,
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接着他过了一遍精神病检核表
13:01
basically turning it into "Who Moved My Cheese?"
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基本和《谁动了我的奶酪》里面一样（为自己辩解）
13:05
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
13:09
But I did notice something happening to me the day I was with Al Dunlap.
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但我确实觉察到和Al Dunlap在一起的那天发生的一些事
13:11
Whenever he said anything to me that was kind of normal --
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无论他说什么，我听起来都觉得挺正常的
13:14
like he said no to juvenile delinquency.
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就像他反对少年违法犯罪一样
13:17
He said he got accepted into West Point,
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他说他被西点军校（West Point）录取了
13:18
and they don't let delinquents in West Point.
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在西点军校是不允许有过失的
13:22
He said no to many short-term marital relationships.
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他反对很多短期的婚姻关系
13:25
He's only ever been married twice.
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他只结过两次婚
13:26
Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers
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无可否认，他第一任妻子是在他拿刀威胁下
13:29
that he once threatened her with a knife
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才在离婚协议上签字的
13:31
and said he always wondered what human flesh tasted like,
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他妻子说他一直很好奇人肉尝起来是怎样的
13:34
but people say stupid things to each other in bad marriages in the heat of an argument
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但人们总会在失败的婚姻争吵中说些傻话
13:38
and his second marriage has lasted 41 years.
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而他的第二段婚姻持续了41年
13:41
So whenever he said anything to me that just seemed kind of non-psychopathic,
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所以无论他说什么，我听起来都不觉得他有精神病
13:45
I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book.
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我心想，好吧，我不打算把这些写进书里
13:48
And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter
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但之后我意识到成为一个精神病患观察员
13:52
had turned me a little bit psychopathic.
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倒是让我变得有点神神颠颠的
13:56
Because I was desperate to shove him in a box marked psychopath.
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因为我拼命想证明他是神经病患者
14:01
I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges.
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我拼命想用他最疯狂的举动来判定
14:05
And I realized, oh my God. This is what I've been doing for 20 years.
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突然我意识到，天啊，我干这都干了20年了
14:09
It's what all journalists do.
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记者就都是做这些啊
14:10
We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands,
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我们带着笔记本走遍世界
14:14
and we wait for the gems.
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等待着劲爆的料子
14:16
And the gems are always the outermost aspects
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而所谓的料子却总是那些和被采访人的人格
14:20
of our interviewee's personality.
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相差得十万八千里的花边
14:22
And we stitch them together like medieval monks.
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我们像中世纪僧侣（文化智慧的象征）将他们联系起来
14:26
And we leave the normal stuff on the floor.
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却把那些正常的方面抛掷脑外
14:30
And this is a country that over-diagnoses certain mental disorders hugely.
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而这正是一个大量过度诊断精神疾病的国家
14:37
Childhood bipolar -- children as young as four
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儿童双相障碍症——约4岁的儿童
14:40
are being labeled bipolar
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被诊断为双相障碍症
14:42
because they have temper tantrums,
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因为他们脾气暴躁
14:44
which scores them high on their bipolar checklist.
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这在双相障碍症的检核表上位居榜首
14:48
When I got back to London, Tony phoned me.
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当我回到伦敦时，Tony给我打了电话
14:53
He said, "Why haven't you been returning my calls?"
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他说，“你为什么还没给我回电？”
14:56
I said, "Well they say that you're a psychopath."
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我说，“因为他们说你确实有精神病。”
14:59
And he said, "I'm not a psychopath."
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他说，“我没精神病。”
15:01
He said, "You know what, one of the items on the checklist is lack of remorse,
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他说，“你知道吗，检核表上有一项是缺乏懊悔
15:04
but another item on the checklist is cunning, manipulative.
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但另一项却是狡猾，且控制欲强
15:08
So when you say you feel remorse for your crime,
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所以当你说你对犯罪感到懊悔时
15:10
they say, 'Typical of the psychopath
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他们会说，典型的精神病患者
15:12
to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn't.'
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狡猾地欺骗说他感到懊悔，其实不然
15:15
It's like witchcraft. They turn everything upside-down."
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这就像巫术，他们完全颠覆了一切。”
15:19
He said, "I've got a tribunal coming up.
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他说，“我接下来有个裁决
15:21
Will you come to it?"
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你要来吗？”
15:24
So I said okay.
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然后我答应了
15:26
So I went to his tribunal.
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之后我去了那个裁决
15:28
And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go.
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在布罗德莫精神病院住了14年后，他们总算让他离开了
15:33
They decided that he shouldn't be held indefinitely
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他们决定说他不应该被无限期拘留
15:36
because he scores high on a checklist
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因为他在检核表上分数很高
15:39
that might mean that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism.
318
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这意味着他再犯的几率要比平均数还高
15:45
So they let him go.
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所以他们让他离开了
15:47
And outside in the corridor he said to me,
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就在外面的走廊他跟我说
15:48
"You know what, Jon?
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1543
“Jon，你知道吗
15:50
Everyone's a bit psychopathic."
322
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每个人多少都有精神病。”
15:52
He said, "You are. I am. Well obviously I am."
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他说，“你有，我有，显然我是有的。”
15:56
I said, "What are you going to do now?"
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我说，“那你现在准备干什么呢？”
15:59
He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium
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2718
他说，“我打算去比利时
16:02
because there's a woman there that I fancy.
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因为那里有个我喜欢的女人
16:03
But she's married, so I'm going to have to get her split up from her husband."
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但她结婚了，所以我准备去让她和她丈夫离婚。”
16:07
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
16:11
Anyway, that was two years ago,
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总之，那是两年前的事了
16:14
and that's where my book ended.
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也是我书的最后情节
16:16
And for the last 20 months everything was fine.
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过去的20个月，一切正常
16:21
Nothing bad happened.
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安然无恙
16:23
He was living with a girl outside London.
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他和一个女孩住在伦敦以外
16:25
He was, according to Brian the Scientologist,
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按照科学论派学者Brian的说法
16:27
making up for lost time -- which I know sounds ominous,
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他在弥补失去的时间——我知道这听起来不是好兆头
16:30
but isn't necessarily ominous.
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不过也说不定
16:32
Unfortunately, after 20 months,
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20个月后，很可惜
16:34
he did go back to jail for a month.
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他又回到监狱里待了一个月
16:37
He got into a fracas in a bar, he called it --
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他在酒吧里和别人发生争吵，他是这样说的
16:41
ended up going to jail for a month,
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所以在监狱里待了一个月
16:43
which I know is bad,
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我知道这并不好
16:44
but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was,
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但至少一个月的刑期，说明不管是什么争吵
16:47
it wasn't too bad.
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后果应该不算严重
16:50
And then he phoned me.
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然后他打电话给我
16:53
And you know what, I think it's right that Tony is out.
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知道吗，我觉得Tony出来是对的
16:58
Because you shouldn't define people by their maddest edges.
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因为你不能单靠人的疯狂举止就去判定他们
17:02
And what Tony is, is he's a semi-psychopath.
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那Tony算什么呢，算半个疯子吧
17:05
He's a gray area in a world that doesn't like gray areas.
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他处在世界上一个不像灰色地带的灰色地带
17:11
But the gray areas are where you find the complexity,
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这个灰色地带是复杂和纠结的聚集地
17:15
it's where you find the humanity
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在这你能看到人道
17:19
and it's where you find the truth.
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也能看到真相
17:22
And Tony said to me,
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Tony跟我说
17:24
"Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar?
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“Jon，我能请你去酒吧喝一杯吗？
17:28
I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me."
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我想谢谢你为我所做的一切。”
17:31
And I didn't go. What would you have done?
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但我没去。换做你，你会去吗？
17:36
Thank you.
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谢谢
17:37
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmakerJon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession.
Why you should listen
For his latest book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed, Jon Ronson spent three years traveling the world and talking to people who'd been subjected to high-profile public shamings. Whatever their transgression, the response was to be faced by an angry mob, as Ronson calls them "collective outrage circles" devoted to tearing down said person from any position of power. It does not, Ronson suggests gently, reflect so well on society as a whole.
In a previous book, The Psychopath Test, Ronson explored the unnerving world of psychopaths -- a group that includes both incarcerated killers and, one of his subjects insists, plenty of CEOs. In his books, films and articles, Ronson explores madness and obsession of all kinds, from the US military's experiments in psychic warfare to the obscene and hate-filled yet Christian rap of the Insane Clown Posse. He wrote a column for the Guardian, hosted an essay program on Radio 4 in the United Kingdom, and contributes to This American Life.
Jon Ronson | Speaker | TED.com