TED2012
Jon Ronson: Strange answers to the psychopath test
Jon Ronson：精神病測試的另類解答
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是否有明確的界線可區隔瘋狂和清醒？藉由令人恐懼的演講方式，《精神病患測試》的作者 Jon Ronson，闡明兩者間的灰色地帶 (搭配 Julian Treasure 的現場混音和 Evan Grant 的動畫)。
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmaker
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
This story starts: I was at a friend's house,
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故事是這樣開頭的：我當時在一個朋友家，
00:19
and she had on her shelf a copy of the DSM manual,
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她書櫃上有一本 DSM 手冊，
00:23
which is the manual of mental disorders.
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也就是精神疾病診斷與統計手冊。
00:26
It lists every known mental disorder.
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裡頭列出每個已知的精神疾病。
00:29
And it used to be, back in the '50s, a very slim pamphlet.
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在 1950 年代的時候，這只是一本很薄的手冊。
00:32
And then it got bigger and bigger and bigger,
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接著它愈變愈厚
00:35
and now it's 886 pages long.
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現在它已經有 886 頁這麼多了。
00:38
And it lists currently 374 mental disorders.
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目前列出 374 種精神疾病。
00:42
So I was leafing through it,
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我匆匆翻閱一下，
00:44
wondering if I had any mental disorders,
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好奇我有沒有任何精神疾病，
00:46
and it turns out I've got 12.
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結果我得了12種。
00:49
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
00:50
I've got generalized anxiety disorder,
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我有廣泛性焦慮症，
00:52
which is a given.
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這大家都知道。
00:54
I've got nightmare disorder,
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我有夢魘症，
00:55
which is categorized
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這被歸類為
00:57
if you have recurrent dreams of being pursued or declared a failure --
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如果你定期作有關被追趕或者被稱為失敗者的夢 --
01:01
and all my dreams involve people chasing me down the street
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而我所有的夢都涉及人們在街上追趕我，
01:05
going, "You're a failure."
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那麼：「你是個失敗者。」
01:07
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
01:09
I've got parent-child relational problems,
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我還有親子關係問題，
01:11
which I blame my parents for.
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這要怪到我父母頭上。
01:14
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
01:15
I'm kidding. I'm not kidding.
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我在開玩笑。我是認真的。
01:18
I'm kidding.
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我是在開玩笑。
01:19
And I've got malingering.
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我還會裝病。
01:21
And I think it's actually quite rare
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我覺得同時擁有
01:23
to have both malingering and generalized anxiety disorder,
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詐病和廣泛性焦慮症是很不尋常的事，
01:26
because malingering tends to make me feel very anxious.
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因為詐病時容易使我感覺非常焦慮。
01:29
Anyway I was looking through this book,
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於是我當時在翻閱這本手冊，
01:30
wondering if I was much crazier than I thought I was,
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好奇我是否比想像中更瘋狂，
01:33
or maybe it's not a good idea to diagnose yourself with a mental disorder
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或者如果你不是受過訓練的專業人士，
01:37
if you're not a trained professional,
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診斷你自己的精神疾病不是個好主意，
01:39
or maybe the psychiatry profession has a strange desire
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又或者精神病學有個奇怪的慾望
01:43
to label what's essentially normal human behavior as a mental disorder.
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將本來正常的人類行為貼上精神疾病的標籤。
01:49
I didn't know which of these things was true,
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我不知道什麼才是真的，
01:50
but I thought it was kind of interesting.
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但我覺得這滿有趣的。
01:52
And I thought maybe I should meet a critic of psychiatry
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我想說或許我可以跟精神學批判家見面，
01:55
to get their view.
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了解他們的想法。
01:56
Which is how I ended up having lunch with the Scientologists.
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這也是我為什麼最後會和山達基教徒吃午餐的原因。
02:01
It was a man called Brian
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這位男子名叫 Brian，
02:03
who runs a crack team of Scientologists
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他經營一個有聲有色的山達基教徒團隊，
02:05
who are determined to destroy psychiatry wherever it lies.
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他們下定決心要摧毀所有的精神病學。
02:10
They're called the CCHR.
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他們被稱為國際公民人權委員會。
02:11
And I said to him, "Can you prove to me
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我跟他說：「你能向我證明
02:14
that psychiatry is a pseudo-science that can't be trusted?"
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精神病學是不能相信的假科學嗎？」
02:18
And he said, "Yes, we can prove it to you."
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他說：「可以，我們可以證明給你看。」
02:20
And I said, "How?"
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我說：「怎麼做？」
02:22
And he said, "We're going to introduce you to Tony."
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他說：「我們會介紹你給 Tony。」
02:26
And I said, "Who's Tony?"
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我說：「Tony 是誰？」
02:28
And he said, "Tony's in Broadmoor."
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他說：「Tony 在布羅德莫。」
02:31
Now Broadmoor is Broadmoor Hospital.
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布羅德莫指的是布羅德莫醫院。
02:34
It used to be known as the Broadmoor Asylum for the Criminally Insane.
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以前被稱為布羅德莫精神病院，用來監禁發瘋的罪犯。
02:39
It's where they send the serial killers
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連續殺人犯
02:41
and the people who can't help themselves.
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還有不能自救的人們被送到這裡。
02:43
And I said to Brian, "What did Tony do?"
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我跟 Brian說；「Tony 做了什麼事？」
02:46
And he said, "Hardly anything.
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他說：「沒做什麼。
02:49
He beat someone up or something,
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他打了某人一頓之類的，
02:52
and he decided to fake madness to get out of a prison sentence.
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然後他決定假裝他發瘋了所以不用坐牢。
02:57
But he faked it too well, and now he's stuck in Broadmoor
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但是他裝得太像了，現在他被困在布羅德莫，
03:02
and nobody will believe he's sane.
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沒有人相信他是神智正常。
03:04
Do you want us to try and get you into Broadmoor to meet Tony?"
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你想要我們試著將你送進布羅德莫醫院和 Tony 見面嗎？」
03:08
So I said, "Yes, please."
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我回答：「是的，請這麼做。」
03:10
So I got the train to Broadmoor.
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於是我火車到布羅德莫。
03:12
I began to yawn uncontrollably around Kempton Park,
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當我到肯普頓公園附近時，我開始無法控制地打呵欠。
03:16
which apparently is what dogs also do when anxious --
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很明顯就像狗焦慮時會做的事 --
03:19
they yawn uncontrollably.
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牠們不能控制地打呵欠。
03:21
And we got to Broadmoor.
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於是我們到了醫院。
03:22
And I got taken through gate after gate after gate after gate
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我被引導通過一道接著一道接著一道的大門，
03:27
into the wellness center,
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才進入健康中心，
03:29
which is where you get to meet the patients.
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你可以在這裡和病人見面。
03:30
It looks like a giant Hampton Inn.
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裝潢看起來像是超大的漢普頓飯店。
03:34
It's all peach and pine and calming colors.
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所間皆是粉橘色，木頭色和令人安穩的顏色。
03:38
And the only bold colors are the reds of the panic buttons.
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唯一大膽的顏色是緊急按鈕的紅色。
03:43
And the patients started drifting in.
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接著病患開始進來。
03:46
And they were quite overweight and wearing sweatpants
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他們明顯地過胖，穿著寬鬆的運動長褲，
03:51
and quite docile looking.
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看起來很溫馴。
03:53
And Brian the Scientologist whispered to me,
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身為山達基教徒的 Brian 在我耳邊低聲說，
03:55
"They're medicated,"
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「他們有接受藥物控制。」
03:57
which to the Scientologists is like the worst evil in the world,
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這對山達基教徒們就像是世界上最邪惡的事，
04:01
but I'm thinking it's probably a good idea.
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但我心想這或許是最好的做法。
04:03
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
04:05
And then Brian said, "Here's Tony."
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接著 Brian 說：「Tony 來了。」
04:08
And a man was walking in.
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於是一個男人走進來。
04:10
And he wasn't overweight, he was in very good physical shape.
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他沒有過胖，他體態非常好。
04:14
And he wasn't wearing sweatpants,
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他也沒有穿寬鬆的運動褲，
04:15
he was wearing a pinstriped suit.
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他穿著細直條紋的西裝。
04:18
And he had his arm outstretched
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而且他的手臂向外延展，
04:20
like someone out of The Apprentice.
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像是電視實境節目《誰是接班人》裡面的人物。
04:23
He looked like a man who wanted to wear an outfit
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他看起來像是一個把精心打扮體面
04:25
that would convince me that he was very sane.
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想要說服我他很清醒的人。
04:30
And he sat down.
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他坐了下來。
04:31
And I said, "So is it true that you faked your way in here?"
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我說：「所以你裝瘋混進來這裡是真的嗎？」
04:34
And he said, "Yep. Yep. Absolutely. I beat someone up when I was 17.
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他說：「對，對，當然。我 17 歲時打了某人一頓。
04:38
And I was in prison awaiting trial,
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當時我在監獄裡等審判，
04:40
and my cellmate said to me,
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我的牢友跟我說：
04:42
'You know what you have to do?
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「你知道你該怎麼做嗎？
04:43
Fake madness.
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假裝你瘋了。
04:45
Tell them you're mad. You'll get sent to some cushy hospital.
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告訴他們你發瘋了。你就會被送到很可以過得很輕鬆的醫院。
04:48
Nurses will bring you pizzas.
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護士會送披薩給你吃。
04:51
You'll have your own Playstation.'"
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你會有你自己的 PS 遊戲機。」
04:53
So I said, "Well how did you do it?"
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於是我說：「你當時是怎麼做的？」
04:54
He said, "I asked to see the prison psychiatrist.
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他說：「我要求要見監獄的精神醫生。
04:57
And I'd just seen a film called 'Crash'
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我當時剛看完一齣叫《超速性追緝》的電影，
04:59
in which people get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.
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當中人們藉由開車撞牆達到性愛的愉悅。
05:03
So I said to the psychiatrist,
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所以我跟那位精神醫生說，
05:05
'I get sexual pleasure from crashing cars into walls.'"
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「我從開車撞牆中得到性愛的愉悅。」
05:09
And I said, "What else?"
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我說：「還有呢？」
05:11
He said, "Oh, yeah. I told the psychiatrist
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他說：「喔，對了，我告訴那位精神醫生
05:13
that I wanted to watch women as they died
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我想要看女人死亡
05:17
because it would make me feel more normal."
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因為那會讓我感到更正常。」
05:19
And I said, "Where'd you get that from?"
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我說：「你從哪得到這想法？」
05:21
He said, "Oh, from a biography of Ted Bundy
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他說：「從泰德邦迪 (美國七十年代連續殺人犯) 的傳記，
05:23
that they had at the prison library."
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監獄圖書館有這本書。」
05:25
Anyway he faked madness too well, he said.
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反正他說他裝瘋裝得太像了，
05:29
And they didn't send him to some cushy hospital.
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所以他們沒有將他送到一些可以混得很輕鬆的醫院。
05:31
They sent him to Broadmoor.
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他們將他送到布羅德莫。
05:33
And the minute he got there,
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當他一到達這裡，
05:35
he said he took one look at the place, asked to see the psychiatrist,
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他說他看了這個地方一眼，要求要見精神醫生，
05:38
said, "There's been a terrible misunderstanding.
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他要說：「有一個很嚴重的誤會。
05:40
I'm not mentally ill."
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我沒有精神異常。」
05:42
I said, "How long have you been here for?"
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我說：「你在這裡多久了？」
05:44
He said, "Well, if I'd just done my time in prison for the original crime,
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他說：「嗯，如果我要為我原本犯的罪坐牢的話，
05:49
I'd have got five years.
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必須被關五年。
05:50
I've been in Broadmoor for 12 years."
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我已經在布羅德莫12年了。」
05:56
Tony said that it's a lot harder to convince people you're sane
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Tony 說要說服別人你是神智正常的
06:00
than it is to convince them you're crazy.
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比你瘋了還要困難得多。
06:03
He said, "I thought the best way to seem normal
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他說：「我心想表現正常的最佳方式是
06:04
would be to talk to people normally about normal things
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跟人們正常地聊普通的事情，
06:07
like football or what's on TV.
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像是足球或者電視上的節目。
06:09
I subscribe to New Scientist,
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我訂閱了《新科學家》雜誌，
06:11
and recently it had an article
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最近雜誌上有一則文章
06:13
about how the U.S. Army was training bumblebees to sniff out explosives.
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關於美國軍隊正在訓練大黃蜂能嗅出爆裂物。
06:18
So I said to a nurse,
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於是我告訴一位護士：
06:18
'Did you know that the U.S. army is training bumblebees
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『你知道美國軍隊正在訓練大黃蜂
06:22
to sniff out explosives?'
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能嗅出爆裂物嗎？』
06:23
When I read my medical notes,
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當我讀我自己的診療紀錄時，
06:25
I saw they'd written:
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我看到他們寫了：
06:26
'Believes bees can sniff out explosives.'"
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『相信蜜蜂可以嗅出爆裂物。』」
06:30
He said, "You know, they're always looking out
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他說：「你知道嗎，他們總是
06:33
for non-verbal clues to my mental state.
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為我的精神狀態找尋不能用言語表達的線索。
06:35
But how do you sit in a sane way?
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但你要怎麼神智清楚地坐著？
06:39
How do you cross your legs in a sane way?
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但你要怎麼神智清楚地翹腿？
06:41
It's just impossible."
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這根本就不可能。」
06:43
And when Tony said that to me,
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當 Tony 跟我說時，
06:44
I thought to myself, "Am I sitting like a journalist?
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我心想：「我現在像個記者坐著嗎？
06:48
Am I crossing my legs like a journalist?"
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我像個記者翹腳嗎？」
06:51
He said, "You know, I've got the Stockwell Strangler on one side of me
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他說：「你知道嗎，我的一邊是斯托克維爾殺人案兇手，
06:57
and I've got the 'Tiptoe Through the Tulips' rapist on the other side of me.
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另一邊是約會強暴犯。
07:00
So I tend to stay in my room a lot because I find them quite frightening.
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所以我傾向於多待在我的房間裡，因為我覺得他們很嚇人。
07:04
And they take that as a sign of madness.
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而他們將那視為瘋狂的一種徵象。
07:06
They say it proves that I'm aloof and grandiose."
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他們說那證明了我很冷漠又誇張。」
07:09
So only in Broadmoor would not wanting to hang out with serial killers
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所以只有在布羅德莫，不想跟連續殺人犯相處
07:14
be a sign of madness.
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會被視為瘋狂的徵象。
07:15
Anyway he seemed completely normal to me -- but what did I know?
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反正我覺得他十分正常 -- 但是我怎麼知道？
07:19
And when I got home I emailed his clinician, Anthony Maden.
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當我回到家，我傳 email 給他的臨床醫生，Anthony Maden。
07:22
I said, "What's the story?"
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我說：「到底有什麼故事？」
07:23
And he said, "Yep. We accept that Tony faked madness to get out of a prison sentence
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他說：「沒錯，我們接受 Tony 假裝發瘋以逃避牢獄之災，
07:29
because his hallucinations that had seemed quite cliché to begin with
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因為他那陳腔老調的幻想
07:33
just vanished the minute he got to Broadmoor.
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在他抵達布羅德莫的時候就消失了。
07:36
However, we have assessed him.
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然而，我們重新評估他。
07:38
And we have determined that what he is is a psychopath."
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我們判斷他是個精神病患者。」
07:42
And in fact, faking madness
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事實上，假裝發瘋
07:44
is exactly the kind of cunning and manipulative act of a psychopath.
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就是那種精神病患會操作的狡猾手段。
07:49
It's on the checklist: cunning and manipulative.
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這有列在檢查表上：狡猾和會操控的。
07:51
So faking your brain going wrong
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於是假裝你的腦袋不正常
07:53
is evidence that your brain has gone wrong.
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變成你的腦袋不正常的證據。
07:56
And I spoke to other experts,
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我跟其他專家談過，
07:58
and they said the pinstriped suit -- classic psychopath.
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他們說細直條紋的西裝 -- 典型精神病患。
08:02
Speaks to items one and two on the checklist --
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講到檢查表上的第一和第二項 --
08:04
glibness, superficial charm and grandiose sense of self-worth.
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能言善道，表面的魅力和誇大的自我價值。
08:08
And I said, "Well, what, he didn't want to hang out with the other patients?"
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我說：「什麼，就因為他不想跟其他病患相處？」
08:11
Classic psychopath -- it speaks to grandiosity and also lack of empathy.
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典型的精神病患 -- 代表浮誇且不具有同理心。
08:16
So all the things that had seemed most normal about Tony
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於是所有有關 Tony 看似正常的事，
08:20
was evidence, according to his clinician,
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根據他的臨床醫生，
08:22
that he was mad in this new way.
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都是他新的瘋狂形式的證據。
08:24
He was a psychopath.
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他是一個精神病患。
08:26
And his clinician said to me,
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而且他的臨床醫生跟我說，
08:28
"If you want to know more about psychopaths,
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「如果你想要知道更多有關精神病患的事，
08:30
you can go on a psychopath spotting course
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你可以參加發現精神病患的課程，
08:33
run by Robert Hare who invented the psychopath checklist."
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由發明精神病患檢查表的 Robert Hare 授課。」
08:36
So I did.
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於是我照做。
08:37
I went on a psychopath spotting course,
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我參加了一個發現精神病患的課程，
08:39
and I am now a certified --
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所以我是個有證照的 --
08:43
and I have to say, extremely adept --
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還有我必須說，非常內行的 --
08:46
psychopath spotter.
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發現精神病患的人。
08:48
So here's the statistics:
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統計數據是
08:51
One in a hundred regular people is a psychopath.
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一百個正常人之中，有一個是精神病患。
08:56
So there's 1,500 people in his room.
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這裡有 1500 個人。
08:59
Fifteen of you are psychopaths.
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所以你們當中有 15 個人是精神病患。
09:05
Although that figure rises to four percent
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當對象是執行長和企業領導人時，
09:07
of CEO's and business leaders.
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這數值提高到百分之四。
09:10
So I think there's a very good chance
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於是我認為很有可能的是
09:13
there's about 30 or 40 psychopaths in this room.
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這房間裡有大概 30 個或 40 個精神病患。
09:18
It could be carnage by the end of the night.
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今晚到最後可能是一場大屠殺。
09:21
(Laughter) (Laughs)
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(笑聲)
09:24
Hare said the reason why is because capitalism at its most ruthless
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Hare 說原因是最殘酷的資本主義
09:30
rewards psychopathic behavior --
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帶來了精神病患的行為 --
09:33
the lack of empathy, the glibness,
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缺乏同理心，油嘴滑舌，
09:38
cunning, manipulative.
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奸詐，愛操弄的。
09:40
In fact, capitalism, perhaps at its most remorseless,
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事實上，毫無悔意的資本主義
09:43
is a physical manifestation of psychopathy.
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是一種精神病態的心理操作。
09:47
It's like a form of psychopathy
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像是一種會影響我們全部人的
09:49
that's come down to affect us all.
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精神病態模式。
09:53
And Hare said to me, "You know what? Forget about some guy at Broadmoor
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Hare 跟我說：「你知道嗎？忘掉在布羅德莫
09:56
who may or may not have faked madness.
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某個可能有或沒有假裝發瘋的人。
09:57
Who cares? That's not a big story.
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誰在乎啊？那不是大新聞。
09:59
The big story," he said, "is corporate psychopathy.
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大新聞，」他接著說：「是企業的精神病態。
10:02
You want to go and interview yourself some corporate psychopaths."
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你會想要去採訪一些企業裡的精神病患。」
10:06
So I gave it a try. I wrote to the Enron people.
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於是我嘗試了。我寫信給安隆案相關人士。
10:09
I said, "Could I come and interview you in prison
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我說：「我是否可以到監獄採訪你，
10:11
to find out it you're psychopaths?"
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以確認你是不是精神病患？」
10:13
And they didn't reply.
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他們沒有回信。
10:17
So I changed tack.
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所以我改變策略。
10:20
I emailed "Chainsaw Al" Dunlap,
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我寄 email 給日光企業(Sunbeam)前總裁「鏈鋸」艾爾‧鄧樂普("Chainsaw" Al Dunlap)，
10:23
the asset stripper from the 1990s.
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1990 年代的資產剝奪者。
10:26
He would come into failing businesses and close down 30 percent of the workforce,
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他會接手式微的企業且刪減百分之三十的人力，
10:31
just turn American towns into ghost towns.
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將美國的城鎮變成無人居住的鬼城。
10:34
And I emailed him and I said,
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於是我寄 email 給他，我說：
10:36
"I believe you may have a very special brain anomaly
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「我相信你應該有個非常特別的異常頭腦，
10:38
that makes you special
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所以你很特別，
10:40
and interested in the predatory spirit and fearless.
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而且你對掠奪的精神很有興趣，沒有懼怕。
10:45
Can I come and interview you
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我可否來採訪你
10:46
about your special brain anomaly?"
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有關你特別的異常頭腦？」
10:48
And he said, "Come on over."
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他回覆：「來吧。」
10:52
So I went to Al Dunlap's grand Florida mansion
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所以我去 Al Dunlap 位在的佛羅里達的大宅，
10:55
that was filled with sculptures of predatory animals.
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裡頭充滿掠奪性動物的雕像。
10:59
There were lions and tigers.
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有獅子和老虎。
11:02
He was taking me through the garden.
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他帶我走過花園。
11:03
There were falcons and eagles.
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有隼和鷹。
11:06
He was saying to me, "Over there you've got sharks."
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他跟我說：「在那裡你可以看到鯊魚。」
11:08
He was saying this in a less effeminate way.
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他用比較不柔弱的語氣說話。
11:11
"You've got more sharks and you've got tigers."
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「你可看到更多的鯊魚，還有老虎。」
11:16
It was like Narnia.
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那簡直就像納尼亞。
11:18
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
11:22
And then we went into his kitchen.
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接著我們走進他的廚房。
11:24
Now Al Dunlap would be brought in to save failing companies.
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Al Dunlap 總是被帶來拯救快倒閉的公司。
11:28
He'd close down 30 percent of the workforce.
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他會刪減百分之三十的人力。
11:31
And he'd quite often fire people with a joke.
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而且他開除人時通常會開點玩笑。
11:34
For instance, one famous story about him,
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舉例來說，他有個有名的故事，
11:37
somebody came up to him and said, "I've just bought myself a new car."
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有個人來到他面前說：「我剛買給我自己一台新車。」
11:40
And he said, "You may have a new car,
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他接著說：「你可能有一台新車，
11:42
but I'll tell you what you don't have, a job."
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但我會告訴你你沒有的，就是工作。」
11:47
So in his kitchen -- he was standing there with his wife, Judy,
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於是我們在他的廚房中 --他和他的太太 Judy 站在一起，
11:50
and his bodyguard Sean -- and I said, "You know how I said in my email
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還有他的保鑣 Sean -- 於是我說：「就如同我在 email 中所說，
11:53
that you might have a special brain anomaly that makes you special?"
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你可能有個特別的異常頭腦，使你變得特別？」
11:57
He said, "Yeah, it's an amazing theory.
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他說：「是的，這是個驚人的理論。
11:58
It's like Star Trek. You're going where no man has gone before."
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就像星際爭霸戰。你要去人類從來沒有到過的地方。」
12:02
And I said, "Well, some psychologists might say
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接著我說：「嗯，一些心理學家可能會說
12:09
that this makes you ... " (Mumbles)
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這使你 ...」(含糊的話)
12:12
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
12:14
And he said, "What?"
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他說：「什麼？」
12:16
And I said, "A psychopath."
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我接著說：「變成精神病患。」
12:18
And I said, "I've got a list of psychopathic traits in my pocket.
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我說：「我口袋裡有一張精神病患的特徵表。
12:22
Can I go through them with you?"
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我可以問你有沒有這些特稱嗎？」
12:24
And he looked intrigued despite himself,
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他看起來很好奇，儘管他本意不是如此，
12:27
and he said, "Okay, go on."
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他說：「好吧，開始吧。」
12:28
And I said, "Okay. Grandiose sense of self-worth."
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我說：「沒問題。過度膨脹的自我價值。」
12:32
Which, I have to say, would have been hard for him to deny
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我必需說，對他來說這是很難否定的，
12:34
because he was standing underneath a giant oil painting of himself.
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因為他站在一幅以他為主角的巨大的油畫下面。
12:37
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
12:42
He said, "Well, you've got to believe in you!"
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他說：「嗯，你一定要相信你自己！」
12:45
And I said, "Manipulative."
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我接著說：「習於操弄。」
12:48
He said, "That's leadership."
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他說：「那叫做領導。」
12:51
And I said, "Shallow affect:
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我接著說：「沒有感情：
12:53
an inability to experience a range of emotions."
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不能體會各種情緒。」
12:55
He said, "Who wants to be weighed down by some nonsense emotions?"
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他說：「誰想到承受一些愚蠢的情緒？」
12:59
So he was going down the psychopathic checklist,
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於是他回答了精神病檢查表上接下來的特點，
13:01
basically turning it into "Who Moved My Cheese?"
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基本上就像是《誰搬走了我的乳酪？》那樣。
13:05
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
13:09
But I did notice something happening to me the day I was with Al Dunlap.
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但我注意到我和 Al Dunlap 在一起的那天，我有了變化。
13:11
Whenever he said anything to me that was kind of normal --
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當他跟我說任何滿正常的事 --
13:14
like he said no to juvenile delinquency.
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像是他否認少年犯罪。
13:17
He said he got accepted into West Point,
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他說到他收到西點軍校的入學許可，
13:18
and they don't let delinquents in West Point.
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西點軍校不會收青少年罪犯。
13:22
He said no to many short-term marital relationships.
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他否認有很多段短期的婚姻關係。
13:25
He's only ever been married twice.
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他只有結婚兩次。
13:26
Admittedly, his first wife cited in her divorce papers
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眾所皆知的是，他的第一任妻子在她的離婚書上寫到
13:29
that he once threatened her with a knife
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他有一次拿刀威脅她，
13:31
and said he always wondered what human flesh tasted like,
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說他一直想知道人肉吃起來是什麼味道，
13:34
but people say stupid things to each other in bad marriages in the heat of an argument
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但在糟糕的婚姻關係中，人們激烈地爭吵時會互相說些愚蠢的話，
13:38
and his second marriage has lasted 41 years.
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而且他的第二段婚姻維持 41 年。
13:41
So whenever he said anything to me that just seemed kind of non-psychopathic,
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每當他跟我說些聽起來似乎相當不像有精神病的話，
13:45
I thought to myself, well I'm not going to put that in my book.
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我心想，我才不要把這寫到我的書中。
13:48
And then I realized that becoming a psychopath spotter
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接著我發現成為一個發現精神病患的人
13:52
had turned me a little bit psychopathic.
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已經把我變得有點像有精神病。
13:56
Because I was desperate to shove him in a box marked psychopath.
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因為我如此急切地想把他推進一個寫上精神病患的箱子裡。
14:01
I was desperate to define him by his maddest edges.
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我迫不急待用他瘋狂的特徵來定義他。
14:05
And I realized, oh my God. This is what I've been doing for 20 years.
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於是我了解了，我的天啊。這是我 20 年來一直在做的事。
14:09
It's what all journalists do.
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是記者在做的事。
14:10
We travel across the world with our notepads in our hands,
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我們手拿筆記本在世界各國遊走，
14:14
and we wait for the gems.
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我們等待難能可貴的事物。
14:16
And the gems are always the outermost aspects
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這些事物總是我們受訪者的人格特質中
14:20
of our interviewee's personality.
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最外表的樣子。
14:22
And we stitch them together like medieval monks.
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我們像中世紀僧侶一樣把它們縫補在一塊兒。
14:26
And we leave the normal stuff on the floor.
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我們捨棄平凡的東西。
14:30
And this is a country that over-diagnoses certain mental disorders hugely.
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這是一個大量地過度診斷特定精神疾病的國家。
14:37
Childhood bipolar -- children as young as four
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兒童雙極性障礙 -- 年紀僅四歲的兒童
14:40
are being labeled bipolar
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被貼上有躁鬱症的標籤，
14:42
because they have temper tantrums,
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因為他們會發脾氣，
14:44
which scores them high on their bipolar checklist.
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這讓他們在雙極性檢查表上得到高分。
14:48
When I got back to London, Tony phoned me.
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當我回到倫敦時，Tony 打電話給我。
14:53
He said, "Why haven't you been returning my calls?"
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他說：「你為什麼不回我的電話？」
14:56
I said, "Well they say that you're a psychopath."
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我說：「他們說你是精神病患。」
14:59
And he said, "I'm not a psychopath."
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他說：「我沒有精神病。」
15:01
He said, "You know what, one of the items on the checklist is lack of remorse,
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他說：「你知道嗎，檢查表上有一項是缺乏悔意，
15:04
but another item on the checklist is cunning, manipulative.
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但表上另外一項是奸詐，愛操作的。
15:08
So when you say you feel remorse for your crime,
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於是當你說你對你犯下的罪感到後悔，
15:10
they say, 'Typical of the psychopath
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他們說：『典型的精神病患，
15:12
to cunningly say he feels remorse when he doesn't.'
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很奸詐地說他感到後悔，其實他心裡不這麼想。』
15:15
It's like witchcraft. They turn everything upside-down."
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這就像巫術，他們顛倒一切。」
15:19
He said, "I've got a tribunal coming up.
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他說：「我即將要上法庭，
15:21
Will you come to it?"
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你要來嗎？」
15:24
So I said okay.
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我答應了。
15:26
So I went to his tribunal.
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於是我參加了他的法庭。
15:28
And after 14 years in Broadmoor, they let him go.
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在被監禁在布羅德莫 14 年之後，他們釋放他了。
15:33
They decided that he shouldn't be held indefinitely
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他們決定不應該因為他在檢查表中得到高分
15:36
because he scores high on a checklist
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這高分代表他可能有高於平均值的再犯機率。
15:39
that might mean that he would have a greater than average chance of recidivism.
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就無限期地關他。
15:45
So they let him go.
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於是他們讓他走了。
15:47
And outside in the corridor he said to me,
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在外面的走道上，他跟我說：
15:48
"You know what, Jon?
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「你知道嗎，Jon？
15:50
Everyone's a bit psychopathic."
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每個人都有點精神病。」
15:52
He said, "You are. I am. Well obviously I am."
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他說：「你有，我有，很明顯地我有。」
15:56
I said, "What are you going to do now?"
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我說：「你接下來要做什麼？」
15:59
He said, "I'm going to go to Belgium
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他說：「我要去比利時
16:02
because there's a woman there that I fancy.
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因為那裏有個我喜歡的女人。
16:03
But she's married, so I'm going to have to get her split up from her husband."
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但她結婚了，所以我要讓她跟她老公離婚。」
16:07
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
16:11
Anyway, that was two years ago,
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不論如何，那是兩年前的事了，
16:14
and that's where my book ended.
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也是我的書的結尾。
16:16
And for the last 20 months everything was fine.
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過去 20 個月來，一切安好。
16:21
Nothing bad happened.
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沒什麼壞事發生。
16:23
He was living with a girl outside London.
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他跟一個女孩住在倫敦之外。
16:25
He was, according to Brian the Scientologist,
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根據山達基教徒 Brian，
16:27
making up for lost time -- which I know sounds ominous,
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他在彌補遺失的時間 -- 我知道這聽起來不是好預兆，
16:30
but isn't necessarily ominous.
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但這不是必要的壞兆頭。
16:32
Unfortunately, after 20 months,
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不幸地，20 個月之後，
16:34
he did go back to jail for a month.
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他的確回去坐牢一個月。
16:37
He got into a fracas in a bar, he called it --
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他捲入在一家酒吧裡的紛爭，這是他說的 --
16:41
ended up going to jail for a month,
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結果是坐牢一個月，
16:43
which I know is bad,
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我知道這不好，
16:44
but at least a month implies that whatever the fracas was,
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但至少一個月代表的是不管這紛爭是什麼，
16:47
it wasn't too bad.
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這並沒有太糟。
16:50
And then he phoned me.
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之後他打電話給我。
16:53
And you know what, I think it's right that Tony is out.
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你知道嗎，我覺得 Tony 出獄是對的。
16:58
Because you shouldn't define people by their maddest edges.
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因為你不應該用人們瘋狂的特徵來評斷它們。
17:02
And what Tony is, is he's a semi-psychopath.
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至於 Tony 到底是怎樣，他是半個神經病嗎。
17:05
He's a gray area in a world that doesn't like gray areas.
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他處在一個這個世界不喜歡的灰色地帶。
17:11
But the gray areas are where you find the complexity,
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但是灰色地帶是你發現複雜的地方，
17:15
it's where you find the humanity
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是你發現人性
17:19
and it's where you find the truth.
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還有發現真相的地方。
17:22
And Tony said to me,
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於是 Tony 跟我說，
17:24
"Jon, could I buy you a drink in a bar?
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「Jon，我可以請你到酒吧喝杯酒嗎？
17:28
I just want to thank you for everything you've done for me."
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我只是想謝謝你幫我做的所有事。」
17:31
And I didn't go. What would you have done?
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我沒有去。你還能怎麼做呢？
17:36
Thank you.
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謝謝。
17:37
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmakerJon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession.
Why you should listen
For his latest book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed, Jon Ronson spent three years traveling the world and talking to people who'd been subjected to high-profile public shamings. Whatever their transgression, the response was to be faced by an angry mob, as Ronson calls them "collective outrage circles" devoted to tearing down said person from any position of power. It does not, Ronson suggests gently, reflect so well on society as a whole.
In a previous book, The Psychopath Test, Ronson explored the unnerving world of psychopaths -- a group that includes both incarcerated killers and, one of his subjects insists, plenty of CEOs. In his books, films and articles, Ronson explores madness and obsession of all kinds, from the US military's experiments in psychic warfare to the obscene and hate-filled yet Christian rap of the Insane Clown Posse. He wrote a column for the Guardian, hosted an essay program on Radio 4 in the United Kingdom, and contributes to This American Life.
Jon Ronson | Speaker | TED.com