TEDGlobal>Geneva
Yanis Varoufakis: Capitalism will eat democracy -- unless we speak up
亚尼斯·瓦鲁法基斯: 资本主义会消灭民主 -- 除非我们站出来
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你有没有想过，为什么政治家们不再是过去的自己，为什么政府无法解决真正的问题？经济学家亚尼斯·瓦鲁法基斯，前希腊财长说，因为今天你身处政治却没有权利 -- 因为当今真正的权利掌握在那些掌控经济的人手里。他认为巨富和大型企业吞噬了政治，导致财政危机。在演讲中，他描述了梦想中的世界，在这个世界里资本和劳动力不再是彼此挣扎对抗，“一个同时实现自由的，马克思和凯恩斯式的社会。”
Yanis Varoufakis - Economist and professor
Yanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism. Full bio
Yanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Democracy.
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民主。
00:14
In the West,
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在西方，
00:16
we make a colossal mistake
taking it for granted.
taking it for granted.
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我们犯了巨大的错误，
认为民主是理所应当的。
认为民主是理所应当的。
00:20
We see democracy
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我们没有把民主
00:21
not as the most fragile
of flowers that it really is,
of flowers that it really is,
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视为它本应该是的最脆弱的花朵，
而是把它视为社会家具的一部分。
00:26
but we see it as part
of our society's furniture.
of our society's furniture.
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00:29
We tend to think of it
as an intransigent given.
as an intransigent given.
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我们倾向于认为它是
无需妥协的赋予。
无需妥协的赋予。
00:34
We mistakenly believe that capitalism
begets inevitably democracy.
begets inevitably democracy.
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我们错误地相信
资本主义必然导致民主。
资本主义必然导致民主。
00:39
It doesn't.
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然而并不是的。
00:41
Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew
and his great imitators in Beijing
and his great imitators in Beijing
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新加坡总理李光耀，
和他在北京的伟大模仿者们，
和他在北京的伟大模仿者们，
00:45
have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt
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在超出合理的怀疑声中证明了，
00:48
that it is perfectly possible
to have a flourishing capitalism,
to have a flourishing capitalism,
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在没有民主的政治情况下，
00:52
spectacular growth,
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资本主义可以以惊人的速度
00:54
while politics remains democracy-free.
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繁荣起来。
00:58
Indeed, democracy is receding
in our neck of the woods,
in our neck of the woods,
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确实，民主在我们所在的区域
正在退步。
正在退步。
01:02
here in Europe.
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就在欧洲，
01:04
Earlier this year,
while I was representing Greece --
while I was representing Greece --
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今年的早些时候，
当我作为财政部长带领希腊 --
当我作为财政部长带领希腊 --
01:07
the newly elected Greek government --
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新选举产生的希腊政府 --
01:10
in the Eurogroup as its Finance Minister,
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在欧元集团参加会议。
01:12
I was told in no uncertain terms
that our nation's democratic process --
that our nation's democratic process --
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我被明确地告知
我们国家的民主过程 --
我们国家的民主过程 --
01:17
our elections --
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我们的选举 --
01:19
could not be allowed to interfere
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不被允许介入
01:21
with economic policies
that were being implemented in Greece.
that were being implemented in Greece.
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将要在希腊实施的经济政策。
01:25
At that moment,
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在那一刻，
01:26
I felt that there could be no greater
vindication of Lee Kuan Yew,
vindication of Lee Kuan Yew,
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我感到这是对李光耀总理，
01:30
or the Chinese Communist Party,
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或者是中国共产党来说
是绝佳的辩护，
是绝佳的辩护，
01:32
indeed of some recalcitrant
friends of mine who kept telling me
friends of mine who kept telling me
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事实上一些反对我的朋友
不断地告诉我，
不断地告诉我，
01:36
that democracy would be banned
if it ever threatened to change anything.
if it ever threatened to change anything.
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民主会被禁止，
当它威胁要改变些什么的时候。
当它威胁要改变些什么的时候。
01:41
Tonight, here, I want to present to you
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今天，在这里，我想要向你们展示，
01:44
an economic case
for an authentic democracy.
for an authentic democracy.
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一个关于真实民主的经济案例。
01:48
I want to ask you
to join me in believing again
to join me in believing again
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我想要邀请你们加入我
来一起重新相信，
来一起重新相信，
01:53
that Lee Kuan Yew,
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李光耀、
01:56
the Chinese Communist Party
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中国共产党、
01:57
and indeed the Eurogroup
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和欧元集团
01:59
are wrong in believing
that we can dispense with democracy --
that we can dispense with democracy --
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错误地相信
我们可以不需要民主 --
我们可以不需要民主 --
02:03
that we need an authentic,
boisterous democracy.
boisterous democracy.
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我们需要真正的和
强有力的民主。
强有力的民主。
02:07
And without democracy,
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没有民主的话，
02:10
our societies will be nastier,
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我们的社会就会是污秽龌龊的，
02:13
our future bleak
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我们的未来会是惨淡的
02:15
and our great, new technologies wasted.
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我们伟大的新科技会被浪费。
02:18
Speaking of waste,
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提到浪费，
02:19
allow me to point out
an interesting paradox
an interesting paradox
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请允许我来指出
一个正在威胁着我们的经济的
一个正在威胁着我们的经济的
02:22
that is threatening
our economies as we speak.
our economies as we speak.
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有意思的悖论。
02:25
I call it the twin peaks paradox.
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我称之为双峰悖论。
02:27
One peak you understand --
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第一个高峰你们理解 --
02:28
you know it, you recognize it --
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你们知道，你们认识它 --
02:30
is the mountain of debts
that has been casting a long shadow
that has been casting a long shadow
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它是一座债务的高山，
投射着长长的阴影，
投射着长长的阴影，
02:35
over the United States,
Europe, the whole world.
Europe, the whole world.
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遍及美国，欧洲，乃至全球。
02:38
We all recognize the mountain of debts.
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我们都认识到这座债务高山。
02:40
But few people discern its twin.
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但很少人意识到它有一个双胞胎。
02:45
A mountain of idle cash
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一座闲置现金堆砌而成的山峰。
02:48
belonging to rich savers
and to corporations,
and to corporations,
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它来自于有钱人和大公司的存款。
02:53
too terrified to invest it
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他们（有钱人和大公司）害怕去投资，
02:55
into the productive activities
that can generate the incomes
that can generate the incomes
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去投资可以产生收入的
生产活动。
生产活动。
02:59
from which you can extinguish
the mountain of debts
the mountain of debts
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这样的生产活动能够
尝清那座债务高山，
尝清那座债务高山，
03:02
and which can produce all those things
that humanity desperately needs,
that humanity desperately needs,
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还可以制造出
人类急需的物品，
人类急需的物品，
03:06
like green energy.
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比如绿色能源。
03:07
Now let me give you two numbers.
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现在，让我向你们
展示两个数字。
展示两个数字。
03:10
Over the last three months,
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在过去的三个月里，
03:11
in the United States,
in Britain and in the Eurozone,
in Britain and in the Eurozone,
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在美国，
英国和欧元区，
英国和欧元区，
03:14
we have invested, collectively,
3.4 trillion dollars
3.4 trillion dollars
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我们投入了总计
3.4 万亿美元
3.4 万亿美元
03:18
on all the wealth-producing goods --
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在能够创造财富的物品上--
03:21
things like industrial plants, machinery,
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例如工业厂房，机械，
03:24
office blocks, schools,
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办公大楼，学校，
03:26
roads, railways, machinery,
and so on and so forth.
and so on and so forth.
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道路，铁路，机器，
等等，等等。
等等，等等。
03:29
$3.4 trillion sounds like a lot of money
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3.4 万亿美元听起来
似乎是一笔巨款
似乎是一笔巨款
03:32
until you compare it to the $5.1 trillion
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直到你拿去跟在相同国家中、
03:36
that has been slushing around
in the same countries,
in the same countries,
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在我们的金融机构中，
03:39
in our financial institutions,
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闲置的5.1万亿美元比较。
03:41
doing absolutely nothing
during the same period
during the same period
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在同样的时间段内，
什么也没做，
什么也没做，
03:45
except inflating stock exchanges
and bidding up house prices.
and bidding up house prices.
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除了让股票市场膨胀，
让房产价格上涨。
让房产价格上涨。
03:50
So a mountain of debt
and a mountain of idle cash
and a mountain of idle cash
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所以一座债务大山，
和一座闲置现金大山，
和一座闲置现金大山，
03:55
form twin peaks,
failing to cancel each other out
failing to cancel each other out
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形成了两座山峰，
没能够让正常的市场运营
没能够让正常的市场运营
03:59
through the normal
operation of the markets.
operation of the markets.
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来使两者平衡。
04:02
The result is stagnant wages,
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结果就是薪酬停滞，
04:05
more than a quarter of 25- to 54-year-olds
in America, in Japan and in Europe
in America, in Japan and in Europe
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有超过四分之一的25-54岁的
04:11
out of work.
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美国人、日本人、
和欧洲人没有工作。
和欧洲人没有工作。
04:12
And consequently, low aggregate demand,
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随之而来地，是总需求的降低，
04:14
which in a never-ending cycle,
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循环往复，
04:17
reinforces the pessimism of the investors,
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加剧投资者对前景的悲观，
04:20
who, fearing low demand,
reproduce it by not investing --
reproduce it by not investing --
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投资者们惧怕着低需求量，
于是就不再投资 --
于是就不再投资 --
04:24
exactly like Oedipus' father,
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就像俄狄浦斯王的父亲，
04:27
who, terrified
by the prophecy of the oracle
by the prophecy of the oracle
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神预言他的儿子长大之后会杀了他，
04:29
that his son would grow up to kill him,
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而他对此感到害怕，
04:32
unwittingly engineered the conditions
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于是不知不觉中创造了各种条件，
04:34
that ensured that Oedipus,
his son, would kill him.
his son, would kill him.
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以至于后来俄狄浦斯王，
他的儿子，真的杀了他。
他的儿子，真的杀了他。
04:38
This is my quarrel with capitalism.
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这是我对于资本主义的争论。
04:41
Its gross wastefulness,
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它的挥霍无度，
04:43
all this idle cash,
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所有闲置的现金，
04:44
should be energized to improve lives,
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应该用于改善人民的生活，
04:49
to develop human talents,
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发展人类的才能，
04:50
and indeed to finance
all these technologies,
all these technologies,
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和真正地去资助所有的科技，
04:53
green technologies,
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绿色科技，
04:54
which are absolutely essential
for saving planet Earth.
for saving planet Earth.
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这对于保护地球来说
绝对是很重要的。
绝对是很重要的。
04:58
Am I right in believing
that democracy might be the answer?
that democracy might be the answer?
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相信民主可能是这一切的
答案的我是对的吗？
答案的我是对的吗？
05:01
I believe so,
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我相信是的，
05:02
but before we move on,
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但在我们继续之前，
05:04
what do we mean by democracy?
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我们所说的民主是什么？
05:06
Aristotle defined democracy
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亚里士多德将民主定义为
05:08
as the constitution
in which the free and the poor,
in which the free and the poor,
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是一个体制，在这个体制中，
政府是由占着绝大多数比例的
政府是由占着绝大多数比例的
05:13
being in the majority, control government.
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自由人和穷人来掌控的。
05:17
Now, of course Athenian democracy
excluded too many.
excluded too many.
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当然，雅典时代的民主制度
把很多人排除在外。
把很多人排除在外。
05:20
Women, migrants and,
of course, the slaves.
of course, the slaves.
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女人，移民以及，
当然地，奴隶。
当然地，奴隶。
05:24
But it would be a mistake
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但是，如果仅基于
有多少人被排除在外，
有多少人被排除在外，
05:25
to dismiss the significance
of ancient Athenian democracy
of ancient Athenian democracy
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就去否定古老的
雅典民主制度的意义的话，
雅典民主制度的意义的话，
05:28
on the basis of whom it excluded.
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这么做是错误的。
05:31
What was more pertinent,
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雅典民主中更值得肯定的，
05:32
and continues to be so
about ancient Athenian democracy,
about ancient Athenian democracy,
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而且时至今日仍值得肯定的，
05:36
was the inclusion of the working poor,
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是它包括了贫穷的劳工们，
05:40
who not only acquired
the right to free speech,
the right to free speech,
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授予他们不仅仅言论自由，
05:45
but more importantly, crucially,
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更重要的，最重要的是，
05:47
they acquired the rights
to political judgments
to political judgments
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给予他们政治批判的权利。
05:50
that were afforded equal weight
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他们在国家事务政策的制定过程中
05:52
in the decision-making
concerning matters of state.
concerning matters of state.
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被赋予同等的权利。
05:56
Now, of course, Athenian
democracy didn't last long.
democracy didn't last long.
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现在，当然，
雅典民主没有延续下去。
雅典民主没有延续下去。
05:59
Like a candle that burns brightly,
it burned out quickly.
it burned out quickly.
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就像燃烧得十分明亮的蜡烛，
很快就燃烧殆尽。
很快就燃烧殆尽。
06:03
And indeed,
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确实，
06:04
our liberal democracies today
do not have their roots in ancient Athens.
do not have their roots in ancient Athens.
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我们当今的自由民主制度
并不是产自于古代雅典。
并不是产自于古代雅典。
06:09
They have their roots in the Magna Carta,
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他们产自于大宪章、
06:11
in the 1688 Glorious Revolution,
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1688年的光荣革命，
06:14
indeed in the American constitution.
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还有美国宪法。
06:17
Whereas Athenian democracy
was focusing on the masterless citizen
was focusing on the masterless citizen
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雅典民主集中于无主的平民，
06:22
and empowering the working poor,
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和赋予贫穷的劳工们权力，
06:25
our liberal democracies are founded
on the Magna Carta tradition,
on the Magna Carta tradition,
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我们的自由民主制度
是建立在大宪章的传统上，
是建立在大宪章的传统上，
06:29
which was, after all,
a charter for masters.
a charter for masters.
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一个为富人所建立的宪章。
06:32
And indeed, liberal democracy
only surfaced when it was possible
only surfaced when it was possible
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确实，自由民主，
只有在它可以完全
只有在它可以完全
06:36
to separate fully the political sphere
from the economic sphere,
from the economic sphere,
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分割政治领域和经济领域，
06:40
so as to confine the democratic process
fully in the political sphere,
fully in the political sphere,
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从而把民主过程
限定在政治领域，
限定在政治领域，
06:45
leaving the economic sphere --
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使经济领域 —
06:47
the corporate world, if you want --
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商业企业，如果你想的话 --
06:49
as a democracy-free zone.
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成为一个不受民主限制的地带
的时候浮现。
的时候浮现。
06:53
Now, in our democracies today,
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现在，在我们当今的民主，
06:56
this separation of the economic
from the political sphere,
from the political sphere,
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经济领域和政治领域的分离，
07:00
the moment it started happening,
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当它开始发生的时候，
07:02
it gave rise to an inexorable,
epic struggle between the two,
epic struggle between the two,
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这种分离引发了两者间
无情的、史诗般的较量，
无情的、史诗般的较量，
07:06
with the economic sphere
colonizing the political sphere,
colonizing the political sphere,
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经济领域侵占统治着政治领域，
07:10
eating into its power.
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把政治领域的权力吞噬掉。
07:12
Have you wondered why politicians
are not what they used to be?
are not what they used to be?
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你们有没有想过，
为什么政治人物不是他们原有的样子？
为什么政治人物不是他们原有的样子？
07:16
It's not because their DNA
has degenerated.
has degenerated.
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这并不是因为他们DNA退化了。
07:19
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
07:20
It is rather because one can be
in government today and not in power,
in government today and not in power,
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而是因为，今天在政府里面的人
并没有权力，
并没有权力，
07:25
because power has migrated
from the political to the economic sphere,
from the political to the economic sphere,
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因为权力已经从政治领域转移到了
07:28
which is separate.
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分离的经济领域中。
07:31
Indeed,
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确实，
07:32
I spoke about my quarrel
with capitalism.
with capitalism.
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我说出了我对资本主义的争论。
07:35
If you think about it,
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如果你们仔细想想，
07:36
it is a little bit like
a population of predators,
a population of predators,
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这有点像一群肉食动物，
07:41
that are so successful in decimating
the prey that they must feed on,
the prey that they must feed on,
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成功地大批杀害了
它们赖以生存的猎物，
它们赖以生存的猎物，
07:46
that in the end they starve.
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最终自己挨饿。
07:48
Similarly,
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同理，
07:49
the economic sphere has been colonizing
and cannibalizing the political sphere
and cannibalizing the political sphere
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经济领域殖民统治
并蚕食了政治领域，
并蚕食了政治领域，
07:53
to such an extent
that it is undermining itself,
that it is undermining itself,
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在这样的一种状况下
逐渐削弱了自己，
逐渐削弱了自己，
07:57
causing economic crisis.
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造成了经济危机。
07:58
Corporate power is increasing,
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企业的力量正在崛起，
08:00
political goods are devaluing,
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而政治产出正在贬值，
08:03
inequality is rising,
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不平等正在上升，
08:05
aggregate demand is falling
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总需求正在降低，
08:06
and CEOs of corporations are too scared
to invest the cash of their corporations.
to invest the cash of their corporations.
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大公司的总裁们害怕
用他们公司的资金进行投资。
用他们公司的资金进行投资。
08:13
So the more capitalism succeeds
in taking the demos out of democracy,
in taking the demos out of democracy,
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资本主义越是成功地把人民群众
从民主中剔除，
从民主中剔除，
08:20
the taller the twin peaks
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两座山峰就会越来越高，
08:21
and the greater the waste
of human resources
of human resources
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人力资源和人类的财富
08:25
and humanity's wealth.
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也就更多地被浪费掉了。
08:27
Clearly, if this is right,
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无疑的，如果这是正确的，
08:30
we must reunite the political
and economic spheres
and economic spheres
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我们必须重新把
政治和经济领域连结在一起，
政治和经济领域连结在一起，
08:33
and better do it
with a demos being in control,
with a demos being in control,
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并且让人民群众来掌控着
使它变得更好。
使它变得更好。
08:37
like in ancient Athens
except without the slaves
except without the slaves
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就像是古代的雅典民主，
在没有奴隶，
在没有奴隶，
08:40
or the exclusion of women and migrants.
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也不把女人和移民排除在外
的前提下。
的前提下。
08:44
Now, this is not an original idea.
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现在，这不是一个新颖的想法。
08:45
The Marxist left
had that idea 100 years ago
had that idea 100 years ago
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马克思主义左翼分子
在100多年前就有这样的想法，
在100多年前就有这样的想法，
08:48
and it didn't go very well, did it?
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然而并没有做得很好，不是吗？
08:50
The lesson that we learned
from the Soviet debacle
from the Soviet debacle
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我们从苏联解体中
吸取到的教训是
吸取到的教训是
08:54
is that only by a miracle
will the working poor be reempowered,
will the working poor be reempowered,
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只有当贫穷的劳工们被重新授权，
奇迹才会发生。
奇迹才会发生。
09:00
as they were in ancient Athens,
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1976
就像古代雅典时代那样，
09:02
without creating new forms
of brutality and waste.
of brutality and waste.
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没有制造新形式的暴行和浪费。
09:06
But there is a solution:
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但有现在有一个另外的解决方案：
09:08
eliminate the working poor.
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消灭贫穷的劳工。
09:11
Capitalism's doing it
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资本主义正在这样做，
09:12
by replacing low-wage workers
with automata, androids, robots.
with automata, androids, robots.
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通过用自动装置，安卓系统，机器人
来取代低薪的劳工。
来取代低薪的劳工。
09:19
The problem is
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问题是，
09:20
that as long as the economic
and the political spheres are separate,
and the political spheres are separate,
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只要经济和政治领域是分离的，
09:23
automation makes the twin peaks taller,
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自动化会让两座山峰越来越高，
09:28
the waste loftier
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浪费会更加巨大，
09:30
and the social conflicts deeper,
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社会矛盾会加剧，
09:32
including --
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包括 --
09:34
soon, I believe --
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很快，我相信 --
09:35
in places like China.
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在像中国这样的地方。
09:38
So we need to reconfigure,
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因此，我们需要重新装配，
09:41
we need to reunite the economic
and the political spheres,
and the political spheres,
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我们需要使经济和政治领域
连结在一块，
连结在一块，
09:44
but we'd better do it
by democratizing the reunified sphere,
by democratizing the reunified sphere,
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但我们更应该要做的，是使那块
重新团结在一起的领域民主化，
重新团结在一起的领域民主化，
09:50
lest we end up with
a surveillance-mad hyperautocracy
a surveillance-mad hyperautocracy
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以免我们最终落入
监视狂般的超级独裁政权，
监视狂般的超级独裁政权，
09:55
that makes The Matrix, the movie,
look like a documentary.
look like a documentary.
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让电影黑客帝国，
看起来像是纪录片。
看起来像是纪录片。
10:00
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
10:01
So the question is not
whether capitalism will survive
whether capitalism will survive
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所以，问题并不是资本主义能否在
10:05
the technological innovations
it is spawning.
it is spawning.
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在它推动的科技创新中存活下来。
10:07
The more interesting question
194
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更有趣的问题是，
10:09
is whether capitalism will be succeeded
by something resembling a Matrix dystopia
by something resembling a Matrix dystopia
195
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5736
资本主义是否会被
像是黑客帝国这样的反乌托邦社会取代，
像是黑客帝国这样的反乌托邦社会取代，
10:15
or something much closer
to a Star Trek-like society,
to a Star Trek-like society,
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或是被更类似于
星际迷航的社会取代，
星际迷航的社会取代，
10:19
where machines serve the humans
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由机器来服务人类，
10:22
and the humans expend their energies
exploring the universe
exploring the universe
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人们把精力花费在探索宇宙当中，
10:26
and indulging in long debates
about the meaning of life
about the meaning of life
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和沉迷于冗长的
有关于在某些古代，例如雅典时代的，
有关于在某些古代，例如雅典时代的，
10:30
in some ancient, Athenian-like,
high tech agora.
high tech agora.
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和高科技集市当中生命的意义。
10:36
I think we can afford to be optimistic.
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我想，我们能够乐观起来。
10:41
But what would it take,
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但是像星际迷航一样的乌托邦，
10:42
what would it look like
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1976
而不是黑客帝国那样的反乌托邦，
10:44
to have this Star Trek-like utopia,
instead of the Matrix-like dystopia?
instead of the Matrix-like dystopia?
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看起来是怎么样的呢？
而创造它需要些什么呢？
而创造它需要些什么呢？
10:50
In practical terms,
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实际上，
10:51
allow me to share just briefly,
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请允许我简略地
10:53
a couple of examples.
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分享一些例子。
10:55
At the level of the enterprise,
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在企业层面，
10:56
imagine a capital market,
209
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试想一个资本市场，
10:59
where you earn capital as you work,
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在其中你工作赚取资本，
11:02
and where your capital follows you
from one job to another,
from one job to another,
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你的资本跟着你，
从一个工作到下一个工作，
从一个工作到下一个工作，
11:08
from one company to another,
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从一个公司到下一个公司，
11:09
and the company --
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而这个公司--
11:11
whichever one you happen
to work at at that time --
to work at at that time --
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3456
你正巧在那时工作的那间公司--
11:14
is solely owned by those who happen
to work in it at that moment.
to work in it at that moment.
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4320
被某个正巧在那里工作的人
全权拥有。
全权拥有。
11:19
Then all income stems
from capital, from profits,
from capital, from profits,
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所有的收益流，从资本，到收益，
11:24
and the very concept
of wage labor becomes obsolete.
of wage labor becomes obsolete.
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以及雇佣劳动的概念都会被废弃。
11:28
No more separation between those
who own but do not work in the company
who own but do not work in the company
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消除掉不工作却拥有着公司
和在公司工作
和在公司工作
11:35
and those who work
but do not own the company;
but do not own the company;
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却不曾拥有这间公司之间的人的间距，
11:38
no more tug-of-war
between capital and labor;
between capital and labor;
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3200
消除掉资本和劳动之间的
拔河比赛；
拔河比赛；
11:42
no great gap between
investment and saving;
investment and saving;
221
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消除掉投资和存款间的
巨大缺口；
巨大缺口；
11:46
indeed, no towering twin peaks.
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最后，两个高耸的山峰
就会消失。
就会消失。
11:50
At the level of the global
political economy,
political economy,
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在全球政治经济学层面，
11:53
imagine for a moment
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试想某个时刻，
11:54
that our national currencies
have a free-floating exchange rate,
have a free-floating exchange rate,
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4976
我们的国家货币有一个
自由浮动的兑换汇率，
自由浮动的兑换汇率，
11:59
with a universal,
global, digital currency,
global, digital currency,
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伴随着一个通用的，
全球的，电子的，
全球的，电子的，
12:03
one that is issued
by the International Monetary Fund,
by the International Monetary Fund,
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由国际货币基金组织，
12:07
the G-20,
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二十国集团G20所发行的，
12:09
on behalf of all humanity.
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代表全人类的货币。
12:11
And imagine further
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并且进一步想象一下，
12:12
that all international trade
is denominated in this currency --
is denominated in this currency --
231
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所有的跨国交易
都用这种货币来标价 --
都用这种货币来标价 --
12:17
let's call it "the cosmos,"
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我们称它为 “宇宙币”，
12:19
in units of cosmos --
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1400
用宇宙币为单元--
12:21
with every government agreeing
to be paying into a common fund
to be paying into a common fund
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4376
每个政府都会同意
根据他们国家的贸易逆差，
根据他们国家的贸易逆差，
12:26
a sum of cosmos units proportional
to the country's trade deficit,
to the country's trade deficit,
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或是根据他们国家的贸易顺差，
12:31
or indeed to a country's trade surplus.
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来向一个共同基金
投入成比例的宇宙币。
投入成比例的宇宙币。
12:35
And imagine that that fund is utilized
to invest in green technologies,
to invest in green technologies,
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试想这个基金
是被用于投资绿色科技，
是被用于投资绿色科技，
12:40
especially in parts of the world
where investment funding is scarce.
where investment funding is scarce.
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尤其是在世界上
缺乏投资基金的地方。
缺乏投资基金的地方。
12:46
This is not a new idea.
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这不是一个新的想法。
12:48
It's what, effectively,
John Maynard Keynes proposed
John Maynard Keynes proposed
240
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3336
实际上，这是约翰·梅纳德·凯恩斯
12:51
in 1944 at the Bretton Woods Conference.
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在1944年的布莱顿森林会议上
所提出来的。
所提出来的。
12:56
The problem is
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但问题是，
12:57
that back then, they didn't have
the technology to implement it.
the technology to implement it.
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在那时，他们没有科技去实现它。
13:00
Now we do,
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现在我们有了，
13:01
especially in the context
of a reunified political-economic sphere.
of a reunified political-economic sphere.
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尤其是在一个重新连结的
政治和经济领域的背景下。
政治和经济领域的背景下。
13:08
The world that I am describing to you
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我向你们描述的这个世界，
13:11
is simultaneously libertarian,
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2456
同时是自由的，
13:13
in that it prioritizes
empowered individuals,
empowered individuals,
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因为它使被赋予权力的
个体们优先化，
个体们优先化，
13:18
Marxist,
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马克思主义，
13:19
since it will have confined
to the dustbin of history
to the dustbin of history
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由于它将局限于历史的垃圾箱，
13:22
the division between capital and labor,
251
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资本和劳动之间的分割，
13:25
and Keynesian,
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还有凯恩斯主义，
13:27
global Keynesian.
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795320
1480
全球化的凯恩斯主义。
13:30
But above all else,
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总的来说，
13:31
it is a world in which we will be able
to imagine an authentic democracy.
to imagine an authentic democracy.
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它是一个我们能够想象的，
一个真正的民主世界。
一个真正的民主世界。
13:37
Will such a world dawn?
256
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这样的世界会出现吗？
13:40
Or shall we descend
into a Matrix-like dystopia?
into a Matrix-like dystopia?
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或者我们会沦落到变成
一个黑客帝国般的反乌托邦吗？
一个黑客帝国般的反乌托邦吗？
13:44
The answer lies in the political choice
that we shall be making collectively.
that we shall be making collectively.
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答案就在我们将要共同做出的
政治选择中。
政治选择中。
13:49
It is our choice,
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这是我们的选择，
13:51
and we'd better make it democratically.
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我们最好用民主的方法
来进行选择。
来进行选择。
13:54
Thank you.
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谢谢。
13:55
(Applause)
262
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（鼓掌）
14:01
Bruno Giussani: Yanis ...
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829480
1200
布鲁诺·吉桑尼：亚尼斯 ...
14:03
It was you who described yourself
in your bios as a libertarian Marxist.
in your bios as a libertarian Marxist.
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你在自我介绍中称自己为
自由派马克思主义者。
自由派马克思主义者。
14:10
What is the relevance
of Marx's analysis today?
of Marx's analysis today?
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马克思主义与今天的演讲
有怎样的相关性呢？
有怎样的相关性呢？
14:14
Yanis Varoufakis: Well, if there was
any relevance in what I just said,
any relevance in what I just said,
266
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亚尼斯·瓦鲁法基斯：
如果与我刚刚的演讲内容相关，
如果与我刚刚的演讲内容相关，
14:17
then Marx is relevant.
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马克思主义就是与此相关的。
14:18
Because the whole point of reunifying
the political and economic is --
the political and economic is --
268
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3496
因为重新连结
政治和经济最主要的意义在于—
政治和经济最主要的意义在于—
14:22
if we don't do it,
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如果我们不这么做，
14:23
then technological innovation
is going to create
is going to create
270
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2256
那么科技创新就会促使
14:25
such a massive fall in aggregate demand,
271
853640
2296
总需求呈现大幅下跌，
14:27
what Larry Summers
refers to as secular stagnation.
refers to as secular stagnation.
272
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4776
也就是拉瑞·萨默斯所说的
长期性经济停滞。
长期性经济停滞。
14:32
With this crisis migrating
from one part of the world,
from one part of the world,
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随着这个危机
从世界某个区域向外扩散，
从世界某个区域向外扩散，
14:35
as it is now,
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1536
就像现在这样，
14:37
it will destabilize
not only our democracies,
not only our democracies,
275
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2696
它将使得我们的民主不稳定，
14:39
but even the emerging world that is not
that keen on liberal democracy.
that keen on liberal democracy.
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甚至是那些不是特别热衷于自由民主的
新兴国家。
新兴国家。
14:44
So if this analysis holds water,
then Marx is absolutely relevant.
then Marx is absolutely relevant.
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如果这个论述成立的话，
那么马克思主义绝对是相关的。
那么马克思主义绝对是相关的。
14:48
But so is Hayek,
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但同时哈耶克，
14:49
that's why I'm a libertarian Marxist,
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这就是为什么
我是一个自由派马克思主义者，
我是一个自由派马克思主义者，
14:51
and so is Keynes,
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还有凯恩斯，
14:52
so that's why I'm totally confused.
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这也就是为什么
我自己都感到不清醒了。
我自己都感到不清醒了。
14:54
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
14:56
BG: Indeed, and possibly we are too, now.
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BG：确实是，可能
我们现在也很迷惑。
我们现在也很迷惑。
14:58
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
14:59
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
15:01
YV: If you are not confused,
you are not thinking, OK?
you are not thinking, OK?
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YV: 如果你没有感到困惑，
说明你没有思考，对吧？
说明你没有思考，对吧？
15:04
BG: That's a very, very Greek
philosopher kind of thing to say --
philosopher kind of thing to say --
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BG：这是非常，非常
希腊哲学家一样的看法 --
希腊哲学家一样的看法 --
15:07
YV: That was Einstein, actually --
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YV：实际上那是爱因斯坦 --
15:09
BG: During your talk
you mentioned Singapore and China,
you mentioned Singapore and China,
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BG：在你的演讲中，
你提到了新加坡和中国，
你提到了新加坡和中国，
15:11
and last night at the speaker dinner,
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还有在昨天晚上的演讲嘉宾晚宴上，
15:13
you expressed a pretty strong opinion
about how the West looks at China.
about how the West looks at China.
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你对西方是如何看待中国的
表达了非常强烈的观点。
表达了非常强烈的观点。
15:18
Would you like to share that?
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你愿意分享一下吗？
15:20
YV: Well, there's a great
degree of hypocrisy.
degree of hypocrisy.
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YV：好吧，这有
很大程度上的虚伪。
很大程度上的虚伪。
15:23
In our liberal democracies,
we have a semblance of democracy.
we have a semblance of democracy.
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在我们的自由民主制度下，
一种民主的假象。
一种民主的假象。
15:27
It's because we have confined,
as I was saying in my talk,
as I was saying in my talk,
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因为我们被限制了，
正如我在演讲中所说的，
正如我在演讲中所说的，
15:30
democracy to the political sphere,
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民主仅在于政治领域，
15:32
while leaving the one sphere
where all the action is --
where all the action is --
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然而一切活动发生的那个领域 --
15:35
the economic sphere --
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经济领域 --
15:36
a completely democracy-free zone.
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成为了完全不民主的区域。
15:39
In a sense,
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在某种意义上，
15:40
if I am allowed to be provocative,
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用比较前瞻的话说就是，
15:43
China today is closer to Britain
in the 19th century.
in the 19th century.
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中国今天就像是19世纪的英国。
15:48
Because remember,
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因为请记得，
15:49
we tend to associate
liberalism with democracy --
liberalism with democracy --
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我们想要把自由主义和民主
连在一起的意图 --
连在一起的意图 --
15:51
that's a mistake, historically.
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是错误的，历史上来说。
15:53
Liberalism, liberal,
it's like John Stuart Mill.
it's like John Stuart Mill.
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2536
自由主义，自由，
就像是约翰·斯图加特·密尔。
就像是约翰·斯图加特·密尔。
15:56
John Stuart Mill was particularly
skeptical about the democratic process.
skeptical about the democratic process.
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约翰·斯图加特·密尔对于民主过程
持非常怀疑的观点。
持非常怀疑的观点。
16:00
So what you are seeing now in China
is a very similar process
is a very similar process
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所以你所看到的现代中国的发展，
就是一个跟英国在工业革命时期
就是一个跟英国在工业革命时期
16:06
to the one that we had in Britain
during the Industrial Revolution,
during the Industrial Revolution,
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非常相似的发展过程，
16:09
especially the transition
from the first to the second.
from the first to the second.
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尤其是从第一次工业革命
和第二次工业革命的之间的过渡期。
和第二次工业革命的之间的过渡期。
16:12
And to be castigating China
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所以对中国在
16:15
for doing that which the West did
in the 19th century,
in the 19th century,
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做西方社会19世纪做过的事
16:18
smacks of hypocrisy.
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1320
而进行苛责是很虚伪的。
16:21
BG: I am sure that many people here
are wondering about your experience
are wondering about your experience
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BG：我想这里的很多人
都对你今年早期
都对你今年早期
16:25
as the Finance Minister of Greece
earlier this year.
earlier this year.
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出任希腊财政部长的经验感到好奇。
16:27
YV: I knew this was coming.
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YV：我知道这个问题会出现的。
16:29
BG: Yes.
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977365
1251
BG：是的。
16:30
BG: Six months after,
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1336
BG：在六个月之后，
16:32
how do you look back
at the first half of the year?
at the first half of the year?
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2400
你是怎样看待今年前半年的经历的？
16:35
YV: Extremely exciting,
from a personal point of view,
from a personal point of view,
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2616
YV：就我个人来看，非常兴奋，
16:38
and very disappointing,
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1256
也很失望，
16:39
because we had an opportunity
to reboot the Eurozone.
to reboot the Eurozone.
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3896
因为我们有机会重振欧元区。
16:43
Not just Greece, the Eurozone.
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不只是希腊，是欧洲。
16:45
To move away from the complacency
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2936
走出自满
16:48
and the constant denial
that there was a massive --
that there was a massive --
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2456
和不断地否认欧洲以前已经出现了巨大的 --
16:51
and there is a massive
architectural fault line
architectural fault line
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2856
和现在正在发生的巨大的结构上的裂痕，
16:54
going through the Eurozone,
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2176
它横穿着欧洲，
16:56
which is threatening, massively,
the whole of the European Union process.
the whole of the European Union process.
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4416
沉重地威胁着整个欧盟进程。
17:00
We had an opportunity
on the basis of the Greek program --
on the basis of the Greek program --
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3176
我们有一个基于希腊项目的机会 --
17:04
which by the way,
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顺便一提，
17:05
was the first program
to manifest that denial --
to manifest that denial --
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4376
是第一个证明那种否定的存在，
17:09
to put it right.
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1216
并想要解决它的项目。
17:11
And, unfortunately,
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1216
不幸的是，
17:12
the powers in the Eurozone,
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因为欧元区的权势，
17:14
in the Eurogroup,
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欧元集团的权势，
17:16
chose to maintain denial.
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1024079
1977
他们选择继续否认这个问题。
17:18
But you know what happens.
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但是你知道这会导致什么。
17:19
This is the experience
of the Soviet Union.
of the Soviet Union.
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苏联的经验告诉过我们。
17:21
When you try to keep alive
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当你想要让已经无法存活的经济系统
17:23
an economic system
that architecturally cannot survive,
that architecturally cannot survive,
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3879
得以继续存活，
17:28
through political will
and through authoritarianism,
and through authoritarianism,
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2655
通过政治意愿和霸权主义这样的方式，
17:31
you may succeed in prolonging it,
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你也许能够成功地将它延迟，
17:32
but when change happens
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但是当转变发生的时候，
17:34
it happens very abruptly
and catastrophically.
and catastrophically.
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2496
便会是突发的，而且是灾难性的。
17:37
BG: What kind of change
are you foreseeing?
are you foreseeing?
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2007
BG：你预见到怎样的转变呢？
17:39
YV: Well, there's no doubt
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1254
YV：嗯，无异议的是
17:40
that if we don't change
the architecture of the Eurozone,
the architecture of the Eurozone,
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2667
如果我们不改变欧元区的结构，
17:43
the Eurozone has no future.
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1051001
1894
欧元区是没有未来的。
17:44
BG: Did you make any mistakes
when you were Finance Minister?
when you were Finance Minister?
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2896
BG：当你在做希腊财长的时候有做过错误的决定吗？
17:47
YV: Every day.
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1216
YV：每一天。
17:49
BG: For example?
YV: Anybody who looks back --
YV: Anybody who looks back --
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2536
BG：比如？
YV：任何人回看过往的时候 --
YV：任何人回看过往的时候 --
17:51
(Applause)
352
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2080
（鼓掌）
17:56
No, but seriously.
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1376
不，我是说真的。
17:57
If there's any Minister of Finance,
or of anything else for that matter,
or of anything else for that matter,
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3576
如果任何财政部长，
或是任何与此有相关的人，
或是任何与此有相关的人，
18:01
who tells you after six months in a job,
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告诉你在六个月的任期后，
18:03
especially in such a stressful situation,
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3696
尤其是在这样压力巨大的情况下，
18:07
that they have made no mistake,
they're dangerous people.
they're dangerous people.
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2696
他们没做错过任何事，
说明他们是非常危险的。
说明他们是非常危险的。
18:09
Of course I made mistakes.
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1296
当然我做过很多错误的事。
18:11
The greatest mistake
was to sign the application
was to sign the application
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最错误的事，
18:13
for the extension of a loan agreement
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2096
就是在2月底，
18:16
in the end of February.
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1616
签署了申请延长债务协议的申请书。
18:17
I was imagining
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1216
当时我想象着，
18:18
that there was a genuine interest
on the side of the creditors
on the side of the creditors
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2976
债权方是真的有兴趣来
18:21
to find common ground.
364
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1256
寻找一致。
18:23
And there wasn't.
365
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1216
可是并没有。
18:24
They were simply interested
in crushing our government,
in crushing our government,
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2616
他们的兴趣仅仅是压倒我们的政府，
18:27
just because they did not want
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1456
就因为他们不想要
18:28
to have to deal with
the architectural fault lines
the architectural fault lines
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3136
去处理横贯欧元区的
18:31
that were running through the Eurozone.
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2016
巨大的裂痕。
18:33
And because they didn't want to admit
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1816
他们也不想承认，
18:35
that for five years they were implementing
a catastrophic program in Greece.
a catastrophic program in Greece.
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3616
在过去的五年里
他们在希腊实施了灾难性的计划。
他们在希腊实施了灾难性的计划。
18:39
We lost one-third of our nominal GDP.
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2896
我们失去了三分之一名义上的GDP。
18:42
This is worse than the Great Depression.
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1936
这比大萧条时期更加惨烈。
18:44
And no one has come clean
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1256
没有任何三驾马车里的债权人，
18:45
from the troika of lenders
that have been imposing this policy
that have been imposing this policy
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2936
坦白承认实施这样的政策
18:48
to say, "This was a colossal mistake."
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2976
“是一个巨大的错误。”
18:51
BG: Despite all this,
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1216
BG：除了这些，
18:52
and despite the aggressiveness
of the discussion,
of the discussion,
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2336
除了这些激进的讨论，
18:55
you seem to be remaining
quite pro-European.
quite pro-European.
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2416
你似乎还是比较赞成欧洲一体化的。
18:57
YV: Absolutely.
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1216
YV：绝对是的。
18:58
Look, my criticism
of the European Union and the Eurozone
of the European Union and the Eurozone
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4136
我对欧盟和欧元区的批判
19:02
comes from a person
who lives and breathes Europe.
who lives and breathes Europe.
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4040
来自于生活在欧洲的个人经验。
19:07
My greatest fear is that
the Eurozone will not survive.
the Eurozone will not survive.
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3576
我最大的恐惧是欧元区无法存活下去。
19:11
Because if it doesn't,
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1456
因为如果欧元区无法存活，
19:12
the centrifugal forces
that will be unleashed
that will be unleashed
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2856
那么离心力就会被释放出来，
19:15
will be demonic,
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1696
是魔鬼般的释放，
19:17
and they will destroy the European Union.
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1976
最终将会摧毁欧盟。
19:19
And that will be catastrophic
not just for Europe
not just for Europe
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2416
不仅对欧洲，对全球经济来说
19:21
but for the whole global economy.
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1616
也将会是灾难性的。
19:23
We are probably the largest
economy in the world.
economy in the world.
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4096
我们可能是世界上最大的经济体。
19:27
And if we allow ourselves
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1736
如果我们允许自己
19:29
to fall into a route
of the postmodern 1930's,
of the postmodern 1930's,
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走上后现代1930年代的老路，
19:32
which seems to me to be what we are doing,
393
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虽然在我看来我们现在就在走着，
19:34
then that will be detrimental
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1816
那对欧洲的未来，和非欧洲国家的未来，
19:36
to the future of Europeans
and non-Europeans alike.
and non-Europeans alike.
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3416
都会是有害的。
19:40
BG: We definitely hope
you are wrong on that point.
you are wrong on that point.
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2416
BG：我们真的希望在这点上你错了。
19:42
Yanis, thank you for coming to TED.
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亚尼斯，谢谢你来到TED。
19:44
YV: Thank you.
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YV：谢谢
19:45
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Yanis Varoufakis - Economist and professorYanis Varoufakis thinks we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.
Why you should listen
Yanis Varoufakis describes himself as a "libertarian Marxist," although, he says, "It is not something that I volunteer to talk about much, because the very mention of Marx switches audiences off." He teaches economic theory at the University of Athens, where he challenges mainstream notions -- arguing that after the financial crash of 2008 we need a radically new way of thinking about the economy, finance and capitalism.
He became widely known in the first half of 2015 when, as Minister of Finance of the newly formed Greek government, he was a leading, outspoken and much-discussed figure in the renegotiations of Greece's debt.
In May 2017, Varoufakis released Adults in The Room: My Battle With Europe’s Deep Establishment, a personal account of Europe's hidden agenda and an urgent wake-up call to renew European democracy.
Yanis Varoufakis | Speaker | TED.com