TEDIndia 2009
Shekhar Kapur: We are the stories we tell ourselves
謝加‧凱普爾: 我們就是說給自己聽的故事
Filmed:
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究竟創作靈感從那裡來? 在 TED 印度的會議之中，好萊塢/寶萊塢(印度電影工業)的導演謝加‧凱普爾(作品包括: 伊麗莎白女王、印度先生) 指出，他的創作靈感來自純粹的、完全的恐慌。他也分享了佷有力量的方法，去解放你內心那個的會說故事的人。
Shekhar Kapur - Director and writer
Shekhar Kapur is a visionary filmmaker and storyteller who works at the intersection of art, myth and activism. Full bio
Shekhar Kapur is a visionary filmmaker and storyteller who works at the intersection of art, myth and activism. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
So, I was just asked to go and shoot this film called "Elizabeth."
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所以, 我就被要求去拍攝這電影: 伊莉莎白女王
00:18
And we're all talking about this great English icon and saying,
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接著, 我們談著這個英國代表性人物, 說著:
00:21
"She's a fantastic woman, she does everything.
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她真是一個了不起的女人, 她做了許多事
00:23
How are we going to introduce her?"
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我們應該怎樣去介紹她呢?
00:25
So we went around the table with the studio and the producers and the writer,
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於是, 我們一群人, 包括編劇, 監製, 圍著拍攝廠的大枱踱步盤算著
00:27
and they came to me and said, "Shekhar, what do you think?"
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跟著, 他們走過來跟我說: 謝加, 你認為怎樣?
00:29
And I said, "I think she's dancing."
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我說: 我想她應該在跳舞
00:32
And I could see everybody looked at me,
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我看到所有人都望著我
00:35
somebody said, "Bollywood."
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有人說: 寶萊塢的電影人
00:37
The other said, "How much did we hire him for?"
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另一個人說: 我們出了多少錢請他?
00:39
And the third said, "Let's find another director."
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第三個說: 不如我們另外找個導演吧
00:42
I thought I had better change.
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我在想, 也許我應該改變
00:44
So we had a lot of discussion on how to introduce Elizabeth,
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於是, 我們仍繼續討論怎樣去介紹伊莉莎白
00:46
and I said, "OK, maybe I am too Bollywood.
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跟著我說, 好吧, 或許我還是太印度式吧
00:49
Maybe Elizabeth, this great icon, dancing?
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但伊莉莎白, 這個偉大的人物, 或許仍可跳舞吧?
00:51
What are you talking about?"
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你在說些什麼?
00:53
So I rethought the whole thing,
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於是, 我再重新思考這件事
00:55
and then we all came to a consensus.
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最後, 我們全部都達成了協議
00:57
And here was the introduction of this
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而這就是, 英國偉大的代表性人物,
00:59
great British icon called "Elizabeth."
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名叫: 伊莉莎白的出場介紹
01:06
Leicester: May I join you, my lady?
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箂斯特: 我的女士, 我可以跟你一起嗎?
01:18
Elizabeth: If it please you, sir.
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伊莉莎白:先生, 如果你喜歡的話
01:21
(Music)
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音樂
02:05
Shekhar Kapur: So she was dancing.
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謝加. 凱普爾: 於是, 她在跳舞
02:07
So how many people who saw the film did not get
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有多少人看過這電影, 會感受不到
02:10
that here was a woman in love,
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這女士墜入愛河
02:12
that she was completely innocent
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她是如此的純真
02:14
and saw great joy in her life, and she was youthful?
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讓人看到她生命裡的快樂, 還有她的青春
02:17
And how many of you did not get that?
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你們有多少人不會看到這些?
02:21
That's the power of visual storytelling,
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這就是用影像來說故事的力量
02:23
that's the power of dance, that's the power of music:
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這是舞蹈的力量, 這是音樂的力量
02:26
the power of not knowing.
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還是, 「不知道」的力量
02:29
When I go out to direct a film,
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當我開始去導一齣電影
02:31
every day we prepare too much, we think too much.
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通常我們都會準備得太多, 想得太多
02:33
Knowledge becomes a weight upon wisdom.
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但知識有時會變成智慧的負擔
02:36
You know, simple words lost
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你知, 在快速流轉的經驗之中
02:38
in the quicksand of experience.
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簡單的言詞便會失去
02:42
So I come up, and I say,
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於是, 我走出來, 我說
02:44
"What am I going to do today?" I'm not going to do what I planned to do,
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「我今天要做什麼事?」, 我今天不準備做我計劃了的事
02:47
and I put myself into absolute panic.
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於是, 我把自己放置在一個絕對恐慌的狀態裡
02:50
It's my one way of getting rid of my mind,
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這是一種掏空自己的方法
02:53
getting rid of this mind that says,
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掏空自己的意思是
02:55
"Hey, you know what you're doing. You know exactly what you're doing.
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「喂, 你知道你應該怎做, 你知道很清楚自己該怎做
02:57
You're a director, you've done it for years."
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你是一個導演, 你做了導演許多年」
02:59
So I've got to get there
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於是我到了那個空白的狀態
03:01
and be in complete panic.
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也變成了非常的恐懼
03:03
It's a symbolic gesture. I tear up the script,
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加上一個很有象徵意義的姿態, 我會撕掉手上的劇本
03:05
I go and I panic myself, I get scared.
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我繼續, 讓自己變得恐慌。我很驚
03:08
I'm doing it right now; you can watch me. I'm getting nervous,
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我現在就做著, 你看看我, 我很緊張呢
03:11
I don't know what to say, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't want to go there.
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我不知道要說什麼, 我不知道我在做什麼, 我不知要到那裡去
03:14
And as I go there, of course, my A.D. says,
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我到了那裡, 當然, 我的副導演說:
03:16
"You know what you're going to do, sir." I say, "Of course I do."
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「先生, 你知道自己打算怎樣做.」 我說, 「當然, 我知道」
03:20
And the studio executives, they would say,
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跟著, 攝影廠的管事人會說
03:22
"Hey, look at Shekhar. He's so prepared."
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「你看, 謝加, 他是如此的有備而來。」
03:24
And inside I've just been listening to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan
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可是, 在我的裡面, 我聽到一些聲音
03:26
because he's chaotic.
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因為他現在一片混亂
03:28
I'm allowing myself to go into chaos
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我容讓我自己走進這種混亂之中
03:31
because out of chaos, I'm hoping some moments of truth will come.
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因為在混亂中, 我在期待著一些真理的時刻會來臨
03:35
All preparation is preparation.
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所有的準備就是準備
03:37
I don't even know if it's honest.
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我甚至不知道這是否誠實
03:39
I don't even know if it's truthful.
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我也不知道這是否真實
03:41
The truth of it all comes on the moment, organically,
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真相有時只在那一剎那間出現, 有生命的
03:44
and if you get five great moments
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如果你在那些偉大的, 有感染力的東西之中
03:46
of great, organic stuff
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有五個偉大的時刻
03:48
in your storytelling, in your film,
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在你的故事, 在你的電影裡
03:50
your film, audiences will get it.
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你的電影觀眾會感受得到它的
03:52
So I'm looking for those moments, and I'm standing there
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我為了尋找那樣的時刻, 我站在那裡
03:54
and saying, "I don't know what to say."
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說著 : 『我不知要說什麼。』
03:56
So, ultimately, everybody's looking at you,
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最後, 每個人都看著你
03:58
200 people at seven in the morning
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早上七時, 有二百人
04:00
who got there at quarter to seven, and you arrived at seven,
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在六時四十五分已經到了, 而你在七時出現
04:02
and everybody's saying,
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每個人都說
04:04
"Hey. What's the first thing? What's going to happen?"
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「喂, 什麼是第一件要做的事? 跟著有些什麼會發生?」
04:06
And you put yourself into a state of panic
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而你, 卻把你自己放在那恐慌的處境裡
04:08
where you don't know, and so you don't know.
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你連自己在那裡也不知道, 所以你不知道
04:11
And so, because you don't know,
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就是這樣, 因為你不知道
04:13
you're praying to the universe because you're praying to the universe
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你向天地祈禱, 因為你向天地祈禱,
04:16
that something -- I'm going to try and access the universe
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這樣的, 我便嘗試走進了天地之中
04:19
the way Einstein -- say a prayer --
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就好像愛因斯坦那樣的---誠心祈禱
04:21
accessed his equations,
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去到--- 他的方程式
04:23
the same source. I'm looking for the same source
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同一個源頭, 我在尋找同一個源頭
04:26
because creativity comes from absolutely the same source
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因為創造力其實是來自同一個源頭
04:28
that you meditate somewhere outside yourself,
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那裡, 你好像在自身之外默想
04:30
outside the universe.
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在天地之外
04:32
You're looking for something that comes and hits you.
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你在找著一些會來走過來觸動你的東西
04:34
Until that hits you, you're not going to do the first shot.
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直等到這一刻的觸動, 否則, 你實在不會開始第一個鏡頭
04:36
So what do you do?
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所以, 你可以做些什麼？
04:38
So Cate says, "Shekhar, what do you want me to do?"
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就正如凱特所說: 「謝加, 你想我怎樣做?」
04:40
And I say, "Cate, what do you want to do?" (Laughter)
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跟著我說: 「凱特, 你想我怎樣做?」 (笑聲)
04:43
"You're a great actor, and I like to give to my actors --
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「你是一個偉大的演員, 我喜歡我的演員能自我發揮
04:46
why don't you show me what you want to do?"
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為什麼你不展示給我看你想怎樣做」
04:48
(Laughter)
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笑聲
04:50
What am I doing? I'm trying to buy time.
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我在做什麼? 其實我想去拖延時間
04:52
I'm trying to buy time.
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我嘗試去拖延時間
04:54
So the first thing about storytelling that I learned,
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這是我學懂講故事的第一件事
04:56
and I follow all the time is: Panic.
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我接下來的時間, 仍是---恐慌
04:58
Panic is the great access of creativity
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恐慌就是開啟我創作力的鑰匙
05:01
because that's the only way to get rid of your mind.
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因為這是唯一的方式, 讓你去清空你自己
05:03
Get rid of your mind.
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清空自己的思想
05:05
Get out of it, get it out.
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掏空自己, 清淨自己
05:07
And let's go to the universe because
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讓我們一起走進宇宙的天地, 因為
05:09
there's something out there that is more
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那裡存著有些比起你的思想
05:11
truthful than your mind,
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更真實的東西
05:13
that is more truthful than your universe.
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比起你的宇宙更真實的存在
05:15
[unclear], you said that yesterday. I'm just repeating it
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你昨天說, 我現在只在覆述
05:17
because that's what I follow constantly
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因為這是我一直跟隨
05:19
to find the shunyata somewhere, the emptiness.
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去那在某處的空性, 那虛空的感覺
05:22
Out of the emptiness comes a moment of creativity.
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那刻的創造力就是存在於虛空之中
05:25
So that's what I do.
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這就是我的做法
05:27
When I was a kid -- I was about eight years old.
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當我還是小孩---大約八歲的時候
05:29
You remember how India was. There was no pollution.
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你也許會想起印度是怎樣的, 那裡沒有汚染
05:32
In Delhi, we used to live -- we used to call it a chhat or the khota.
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在德里, 我們以前住的地方---- 我們曾經叫它chata 或是khota.
05:36
Khota's now become a bad word. It means their terrace --
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Khota現在變成了一句壞話, 意思是他們的陽台
05:39
and we used to sleep out at night.
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我們以前通常會在街上睡覺
05:41
At school I was being just taught about physics,
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在學校, 我們會學到物理
05:43
and I was told that
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於是, 我就是被教導
05:46
if there is something that exists,
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假如有些東西是真實存在的
05:48
then it is measurable.
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它是可以量度的
05:51
If it is not measurable,
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假如它是不可以量度的
05:53
it does not exist.
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它便不是存在的
05:55
And at night I would lie out, looking at the unpolluted sky,
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那一個晚上, 我睡在沒有汚染的天空下
05:58
as Delhi used to be at that time when I was a kid,
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以前德里常常是這樣的, 當我還是孩子的時候
06:01
and I used to stare at the universe and say,
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我想會凝視著宇宙, 然後說
06:04
"How far does this universe go?"
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「這個宇宙走了多遠?」
06:06
My father was a doctor.
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我的爸爸是一個醫生
06:08
And I would think, "Daddy, how far does the universe go?"
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我會問: 「爸爸, 宇宙走了多遠?」
06:11
And he said, "Son, it goes on forever."
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他說, 「兒子, 宇宙是永遠的走下去的」
06:14
So I said, "Please measure forever
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我說: 「請量度永遠
06:17
because in school they're teaching me
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因為學校的老師教我
06:19
that if I cannot measure it, it does not exist.
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假如我不能够量度它, 它便不是存在的
06:22
It doesn't come into my frame of reference."
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它便不是在我的理解範圍之內的了」
06:25
So, how far does eternity go?
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所以, 究竟永恒可以走多遠
06:27
What does forever mean?
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永遠是什麼的意思
06:29
And I would lie there crying at night
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於是, 我便會在夜裡躺著哭
06:32
because my imagination could not touch creativity.
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因為我的想像力不能接觸到那樣的創造力
06:35
So what did I do?
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我可以做些什麼呢?
06:37
At that time, at the tender age of seven,
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在那時, 一個幼小的七歲孩子
06:39
I created a story.
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我創造了一個故事
06:41
What was my story?
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什麼是我的故事?
06:43
And I don't know why, but I remember the story.
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我不知道為什麼, 但我記得那故事
06:46
There was a woodcutter
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那裡有一個樵夫
06:48
who's about to take his ax and chop a piece of wood,
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他準備去用他的斧刀砍開一塊木頭
06:51
and the whole galaxy is one atom of that ax.
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整個星球, 就是那樵夫手上斧刀上的一粒原子
06:56
And when that ax hits that piece of wood,
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而當斧刀砍進木頭的時候
06:59
that's when everything will destroy
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所有的東西都會被毀滅
07:01
and the Big Bang will happen again.
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巨大的爆炸便會發生
07:03
But all before that there was a woodcutter.
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可是回到一切之前, 這只是一個樵夫
07:05
And then when I would run out of that story,
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接著, 當我走出這故事之外
07:07
I would imagine that woodcutter's universe
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我想像這樵夫的宇宙
07:10
is one atom in the ax of another woodcutter.
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也是一粒原子, 其實就是另一個樵夫手持的那斧刀的其中一粒原子
07:13
So every time, I could tell my story again and again
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所以每一次, 我都可以重覆的去講說我的故事
07:16
and get over this problem,
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跟著便處理了這個問題
07:18
and so I got over the problem.
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於是, 我便解決了這問題
07:21
How did I do it? Tell a story.
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我怎樣做成的? 講故事
07:24
So what is a story?
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什麼是故事?
07:26
A story is our -- all of us --
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故事是我們的 --- 所有的我們
07:29
we are the stories we tell ourselves.
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我們就是說給自己聽的故事
07:32
In this universe, and this existence,
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在這個宇宙, 在這個存有
07:36
where we live with this duality
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我們是跟這個二元性共存的
07:38
of whether we exist or not
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其一是, 我們究竟有沒有存在
07:40
and who are we,
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以及, 我們是誰
07:42
the stories we tell ourselves are the stories
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那些我們告訴自己的故事, 是故事
07:45
that define the potentialities
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當中定義了我們存在的
07:47
of our existence.
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可能性
07:49
We are the stories we tell ourselves.
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我們是我們說給自己聽的故事
07:54
So that's as wide as we look at stories.
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就好像我們看著故事一樣的
07:56
A story is the relationship
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一個故事是一份關係
07:58
that you develop between who you are,
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是你跟你是誰所建立的關係
08:02
or who you potentially are,
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或是你跟你可能是誰之間所建立的關係
08:04
and the infinite world, and that's our mythology.
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以及那個無限之間的關係, 這就是我的神話
08:07
We tell our stories,
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我們講述自己的故事
08:10
and a person without a story does not exist.
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一個沒有故事的人, 是不存在的
08:13
So Einstein told a story
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所以愛因斯坦講了一個故事
08:16
and followed his stories and came up with theories
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隨著他的故事, 出現了他的理論
08:19
and came up with theories and then came up with his equations.
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有了理論, 便有了他的方程式
08:22
Alexander had a story that his mother used to tell him,
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亞歷山大有一個他媽媽告訴他的故事
08:25
and he went out to conquer the world.
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所以他走出去統治了全世界
08:27
We all, everybody, has a story that they follow.
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我們所有人, 每一個人, 都有一個我們跟隨的故事
08:30
We tell ourselves stories.
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我們告訴自己故事
08:32
So, I will go further, and I say,
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所以, 接下去, 我會說
08:35
"I tell a story, and therefore I exist."
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我講一個故事, 所以我存在
08:37
I exist because there are stories,
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我存在, 因為這裡有故事
08:39
and if there are no stories, we don't exist.
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如果這裡沒有故事, 我們並不存在
08:41
We create stories to define our existence.
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我們創造故事去解說自己的存在
08:44
If we do not create the stories,
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如果我們沒有創造這些故事
08:46
we probably go mad.
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也許我們會發瘋
08:49
I don't know; I'm not sure, but that's what I've done all the time.
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我不知道, 我不太肯定, 但我卻常常會做的
08:52
Now, a film.
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現在, 一齣電影
08:56
A film tells a story.
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電影講故事
08:58
I often wonder when I make a film -- I'm thinking of making a film of the Buddha --
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當我拍電影的時候, 我常想弄清楚 --- 我正在想拍一齣有關佛陀的電影
09:01
and I often wonder: If Buddha had all the elements
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我常常懷疑, 假如佛陀把所有的元素
09:05
that are given to a director --
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都給了導演
09:07
if he had music, if he had visuals, if he had a video camera --
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假如他有音樂, 假如他有影像, 假如他有攝影機
09:10
would we get Buddhism better?
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我們會不會更能領受佛教的教義
09:12
But that puts some kind of burden on me.
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但這樣想法卻讓我有負擔
09:14
I have to tell a story
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我要講;一個故事
09:16
in a much more elaborate way,
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用一種更詳盡的方法
09:18
but I have the potential.
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但我有這樣的潛質
09:20
It's called subtext.
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這叫做潛台詞
09:22
When I first went to Hollywood, they said --
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當我第一次跑到好箂塢, 他們說
09:24
I used to talk about subtext, and my agent came to me,
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我常說到潛台詞, 我的經理人告訴我
09:26
"Would you kindly not talk about subtext?"
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你是否可以不再講潛台詞
09:29
And I said, "Why?" He said, "Because nobody is going to give you a film
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我問: 「為什麼? 」他說:「 因為這裡沒有人會給你一齣電影
09:31
if you talk about subtext.
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如果你要說潛台詞
09:34
Just talk about plot
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你就說有關劇本
09:36
and say how wonderful you'll shoot the film,
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同時說你會怎樣把電影拍得很好
09:38
what the visuals will be."
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那些畫面怎樣」
09:40
So when I look at a film,
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所以當我看一齣電影
09:42
here's what we look for:
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這就是我們想要看到的東西
09:44
We look for a story on the plot level,
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我們想看到劇情裡的故事
09:47
then we look for a story
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接著我們會想看到故事裡
09:49
on the psychological level,
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的心理層面
09:51
then we look for a story on the political level,
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我們跟著也想看到故事的政治層面
09:54
then we look at a story
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然後, 我們又會想看到故事裡
09:56
on a mythological level.
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神話部份
09:58
And I look for stories on each level.
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其實我是想看到故事裡的每一個不同層面
10:00
Now, it is not necessary
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現在, 但故事之間卻不一定必然
10:02
that these stories agree with each other.
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的會調合起來
10:05
What is wonderful is,
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最奇妙的是
10:07
at many times, the stories will contradict with each other.
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在許多的時候, 故事會互相矛盾起來
10:11
So when I work with Rahman who's a great musician,
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所以, 當我跟偉大的音樂家拉赫曼合作的時候
10:13
I often tell him, "Don't follow what the script already says.
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我常告訴他: 「不要跟隨著劇本已經說了的部份
10:17
Find that which is not.
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去找劇本沒有說的部份
10:19
Find the truth for yourself,
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去找你自己內裡的真實
10:21
and when you find the truth for yourself,
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當你能够找到你自己的真實
10:23
there will be a truth in it, but it may contradict the plot,
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這就是一個故事裡的真實, 但它可能會跟劇情違背
10:25
but don't worry about it."
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但不用擔心」
10:29
So, the sequel to "Elizabeth," "Golden Age."
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所以, 伊莉莎白的續集 ---黃金歲月
10:32
When I made the sequel to "Elizabeth," here was a story that
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當我在準備拍伊莉莎白的續集時, 這裡已經有一個
10:34
the writer was telling:
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編劇寫了的故事
10:36
A woman who was threatened
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一個被菲臘二世威脅
10:39
by Philip II
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的女人
10:41
and was going to war,
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她準備去打仗
10:43
and was going to war, fell in love with Walter Raleigh.
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就在準備去打扙的時候, 跟雷利墮入了愛河
10:45
Because she fell in love with Walter Raleigh,
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就是因為她愛上了雷利
10:48
she was giving up the reasons she was a queen,
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她放棄了當一個女皇的憑藉
10:50
and then Walter Raleigh
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跟著瓦爾特. 雷利
10:52
fell in love with her lady in waiting,
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愛上了女王的宮女
10:54
and she had to decide whether she was a queen going to war
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於是, 她需要決定究竟她需要去準備打仗
10:56
or she wanted...
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還是去爭取她所愛的
11:00
Here's the story I was telling:
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這就是我要說的故事
11:03
The gods up there,
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這裡有上帝
11:05
there were two people.
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這裡有二個人
11:07
There was Philip II, who was divine
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菲臘二世, 他是神聖的
11:10
because he was always praying,
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因為他常常禱告
11:13
and there was Elizabeth, who was divine,
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這裡也有伊莉莎白, 她也是神聖的
11:15
but not quite divine because she thought she was divine,
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但也不是很神聖, 因為她以為自己應該神聖
11:17
but the blood of being mortal flowed in her.
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但是她身上也流著凡人的血
11:20
But the divine one was unjust,
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這個神聖的人也不是很公義
11:23
so the gods said,
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所以上帝說
11:25
"OK, what we need to do is
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「好吧, 我們需要做的是
11:27
help the just one."
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去幫公義的那個」
11:30
And so they helped the just one.
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他們去幫那個公義
11:32
And what they did was, they sent Walter Raleigh down
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他們怎樣做, 他們派遣雷利下到凡間
11:35
to physically separate her mortal self
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去讓伊莉莎白的凡人的自我
11:38
from her spirit self.
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從她的靈性的自我, 具體地分裂出來
11:40
And the mortal self was the girl
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那個凡人的自我就是那女孩
11:42
that Walter Raleigh was sent,
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雷利被派送下來
11:44
and gradually he separated her
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後來, 他離開了她
11:47
so she was free to be divine.
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讓她可以自由的變成神聖
11:49
And the two divine people fought,
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同時, 那兩個神聖的人打鬥
11:51
and the gods were on the side of divinity.
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於是, 上帝始於站在神聖的一方
11:53
Of course, all the British press got really upset.
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當然, 許多英國媒體會感到不滿
11:57
They said, "We won the Armada."
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他們說, 我們贏了西班牙艦隊
12:00
But I said, "But the storm won the Armada.
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但我說, 可是風暴卻戰勝了艦隊
12:02
The gods sent the storm."
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上帝把風暴送下來
12:04
So what was I doing?
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我可以做些什麼?
12:06
I was trying to find a mythic reason
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我在嘗試去找一個神話式的原因
12:08
to make the film.
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去拍這電影
12:10
Of course, when I asked Cate Blanchett, I said, "What's the film about?"
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當然, 當我去問凱特.布蘭切特的時候, 這電影是關於什麼的?
12:13
She said, "The film's about a woman
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她說, 這電影是關於一個女人
12:15
coming to terms with growing older."
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老化過程的故事」
12:18
Psychological.
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心理學
12:20
The writer said "It's about history, plot."
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編劇說這電影是關於歷史的 ---- 劇情
12:23
I said "It's about mythology,
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我會說這是一個神話
12:25
the gods."
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上帝
12:27
So let me show you a film --
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所以, 讓我給你看電影
12:29
a piece from that film --
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的這個片段
12:31
and how a camera also --
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以及攝影機怎樣同時.....
12:33
so this is a scene, where in my mind,
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表達在我腦海中的這樣的一個場景,
12:35
she was at the depths of mortality.
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她是在人性的深處
12:38
She was discovering what mortality actually means,
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她僈僈的發現人性的真相
12:41
and if she is at the depths of mortality,
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假如她是在有限的生命深處
12:44
what really happens.
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有些什麼是在真實的發生著
12:46
And she's recognizing the dangers of mortality
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她慢慢的發現了死亡的危險
12:48
and why she should break away from mortality.
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以及她為什麼要逃避死亡
12:51
Remember, in the film, to me,
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記住, 在電影裡, 對我來說
12:53
both her and her lady in waiting
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她和那個宮女
12:55
were parts of the same body,
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其實是同一個人的不同部份
12:57
one the mortal self
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一個是凡人的自我
12:59
and one the spirit self.
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一個是靈性的自我
13:02
So can we have that second?
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那我們可以有這樣的一刻?
13:04
(Music)
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音樂
13:06
Elizabeth: Bess?
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貝絲
13:10
Bess?
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貝絲
13:13
Bess Throckmorton?
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貝絲 斯羅克莫頓
13:20
Bess: Here, my lady.
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貝絲: 對, 我在, 我的女王
13:22
Elizabeth: Tell me, is it true?
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伊莉莎白: 告訴我, 這是不是真的
13:24
Are you with child?
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你有了孩子嗎?
13:28
Are you with child?
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你有了孩子嗎?
13:30
Bess: Yes, my lady.
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貝絲: 是的, 女王
13:32
Elizabeth: Traitorous.
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伊莉莎白: 你這個叛徒
13:35
You dare to keep secrets from me?
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你竟然敢對著我說謊
13:37
You ask my permission before you rut,
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你向我要求批准
13:40
before you breed.
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在你呼吸之前
13:42
My bitches wear my collars.
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我的母狗穿了我的頸圈
13:44
Do you hear me? Do you hear me?
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你聽到我嗎? 你聽到我嗎?
13:46
Walsingham: Majesty. Please, dignity. Mercy.
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沃辛漢: 女王, 請你, 尊重
13:49
Elizabeth: This is no time for mercy, Walsingham.
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伊莉莎白: 現在沒有時間講禮貌
13:52
You go to your traitor brother and leave me to my business.
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你去你的叛徒兄弟那裡, 讓我自己處理我的事
13:55
Is it his?
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是他嗎?
13:57
Tell me. Say it. Is the child his? Is it his?
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告訴我, 說, 那個孩子, 是他嗎?
14:00
Bess: Yes.
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貝絲: 是
14:02
My lady,
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女王
14:04
it is my husband's child.
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他是我丈夫的孩子
14:09
Elizabeth: Bitch! (Cries)
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哭聲
14:12
Raleigh: Majesty.
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雷利: 女王
14:14
This is not the queen I love and serve.
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這不是我所愛以及服待的女王
14:22
Elizabeth: This man has seduced a ward of the queen,
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伊莉莎白:這男子竟然引誘女王的婢女
14:25
and she has married without royal consent.
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還有, 她結婚沒有得到皇室的認可
14:29
These offenses are punishable by law. Arrest him.
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這些都是犯法的, 捉他
14:33
Go.
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去
14:39
You no longer have the queen's protection.
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你不再會有女王的保護了
14:43
Bess: As you wish, Majesty.
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貝絲: 女王, 如你所願
14:46
Elizabeth: Get out! Get out! Get out!
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伊莉莎白: 走, 走
14:53
Get out.
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走
14:55
(Music)
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音樂
15:16
Shekhar Kapur: So, what am I trying to do here?
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謝加. 凱普爾: 所以, 我在這裡想做些什麼?
15:20
Elizabeth has realized,
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伊莉莎白已經發現
15:22
and she's coming face-to-face
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以及, 她要面對面的
15:24
with her own sense of jealousy,
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去接觸她自己的妒忌
15:26
her own sense of mortality.
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她自己的死亡
15:28
What am I doing with the architecture?
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我在這些建築當中做了些什麼?
15:31
The architecture is telling a story.
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那些建築也在說故事
15:33
The architecture is telling a story
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那些建築也在說故事
15:35
about how, even though she's the most powerful woman
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在說明, 即使她是當時
15:37
in the world at that time,
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世上最有權力 的女人
15:39
there is the other, the architecture's bigger.
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可是仍有其他的, 那些建築比她更大
15:43
The stone is bigger than her because stone is an organic.
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石頭比她更大因為石頭是死物
15:45
It'll survive her.
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這拯救了她
15:47
So it's telling you, to me, stone is part of her destiny.
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這是告訴你, 對我來說, 石頭是她的天命的部份
15:51
Not only that, why is the camera looking down?
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不單止這樣, 為什麼攝影機的鏡頭會向下望?
15:54
The camera's looking down at her because she's in the well.
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鏡頭向下望是因為她是在一個井裡
15:57
She's in the absolute well
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她是在一個絕對
15:59
of her own sense of being mortal.
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陷於死亡的井
16:02
That's where she has to pull herself out
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這裡是那個她讓自己
16:05
from the depths of mortality,
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掙脫死亡的地方
16:07
come in, release her spirit.
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在那裡, 釋放她的靈魂
16:09
And that's the moment where, in my mind,
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也是在我腦海中的, 那個時刻
16:11
both Elizabeth and Bess are the same person.
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伊莉莎白和貝絲都是同一個人
16:14
But that's the moment
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但在這個時刻
16:16
she's surgically removing herself from that.
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她好像外科手術一樣的把自己切離
16:19
So the film is operating on
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所以這電影這場景, 其實
16:21
many many levels in that scene.
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在很多很多的層面上運作著
16:23
And how we tell stories
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這就是我們透過
16:25
visually, with music, with actors,
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影像, 音樂, 透過演員
16:28
and at each level it's a different sense
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在每一個層面, 不同的觀感在說故事
16:30
and sometimes contradictory to each other.
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但有時, 這些是會互相矛盾的
16:34
So how do I start all this?
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為什麼我會這樣開始
16:39
What's the process of telling a story?
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說故事的過程又是什麼?
16:42
About ten years ago,
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大概十年前
16:44
I heard this little thing from a politician,
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我從一個政治家那裡聽到一些小事
16:47
not a politician that was very well respected in India.
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其實政治家在印度並不是十分受到尊重
16:50
And he said that these people in the cities,
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他說那些住在城市的人
16:53
in one flush, expend as much water
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在每一次沖廁, 所用的水
16:57
as you people in the rural areas
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會讓那些住在鄉間地區的人
16:59
don't get for your family for two days.
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兩天沒有水用
17:02
That struck a chord, and I said, "That's true."
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這是真的
17:05
I went to see a friend of mine,
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我曾經去探望過我一個朋友
17:07
and he made me wait
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他叫我等一下
17:09
in his apartment in Malabar Hill
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就在他在馬拉巴山的房子裡
17:11
on the twentieth floor,
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是在二十樓的
17:13
which is a really, really upmarket area in Mumbai.
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這真是一個在孟買十分十分高尚的住宅
17:15
And he was having a shower for 20 minutes.
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他在浴室洗了二十分鐘的澡
17:17
I got bored and left, and as I drove out,
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我感到悶了, 便離開, 開了車出去
17:19
I drove past the slums of Bombay,
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我開車經過孟買的貧民窟
17:21
as you always do,
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就好像你經常做的
17:23
and I saw lines and lines in the hot midday sun
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我看到烈日當空下一行又一行的
17:25
of women and children with buckets
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婦女和孩子, 帶著水桶的
17:28
waiting for a tanker
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在一個水車前排隊
17:30
to come and give them water.
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為的是去取水
17:32
And an idea started to develop.
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當時立刻有一個念頭閃過
17:34
So how does that become a story?
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怎樣去把這個變成一個故事
17:36
I suddenly realized that we are heading towards disaster.
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我突然之間感到, 我們好像快要遇到災難了
17:39
So my next film is called "Paani"
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所以我下一部電影名叫「帕亞尼」
17:41
which means water.
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意思是水
17:43
And now, out of the mythology of that,
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現在, 在我的神話之中
17:45
I'm starting to create a world.
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我開始去創造這樣的一個世界
17:47
What kind of world do I create,
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我在創造怎樣的世界
17:49
and where does the idea, the design of that come?
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那些點子, 設計從那裡來?
17:52
So, in my mind, in the future,
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在我的腦海裡, 在未來
17:54
they started to build flyovers.
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他們開始去建那些天橋
17:57
You understand flyovers? Yeah?
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你知道天橋嗎? 對?
17:59
They started to build flyovers
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他們開始去建天橋
18:01
to get from A to B faster,
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那就從A 去到B 可以快一點
18:03
but they effectively went from one area of relative wealth
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但他們是從一個相對富有的地方
18:06
to another area of relative wealth.
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去另一個相對富有的地方
18:08
And then what they did was
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這就是他們所做的
18:10
they created a city above the flyovers.
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他們建造了一個在天橋上的城市
18:12
And the rich people moved to the upper city
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那些有錢的人搬到最上層的城市
18:15
and left the poorer people in the lower cities,
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讓那些窮人住在下面的城市
18:18
about 10 to 12 percent of the people
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大約10%到12%的人
18:21
have moved to the upper city.
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搬到上層的城市
18:23
Now, where does this upper city and lower city come?
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現在, 那些上層城市和下層城市是在那裡的?
18:25
There's a mythology in India about --
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這是印度的一個神話
18:27
where they say, and I'll say it in Hindi,
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他們說, 我用印地文說出來
18:30
[Hindi]
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(印地文)
18:34
Right. What does that mean?
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對, 是什麼的意思?
18:36
It says that the rich are always sitting on the shoulders
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我說, 那些有錢的, 總是坐在, 活在
18:39
and survive on the shoulders of the poor.
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窮人的肩膊上
18:41
So, from that mythology, the upper city and lower city come.
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於是, 由這個神話, 上層城市和下層城市
18:43
So the design has a story.
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就讓這個設計有了故事
18:46
And now, what happens is that the people of the upper city,
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現在, 那些上層城市的人有什麼事
18:49
they suck up all the water.
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他們吸乾了所有的水
18:51
Remember the word I said, suck up.
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記住我說的這個字: 吸乾
18:53
They suck up all the water, keep to themselves,
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他們把水吸乾了, 留給自己
18:55
and they drip feed the lower city.
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跟著滴飼給下層城市
18:57
And if there's any revolution, they cut off the water.
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假如有什麼的革命, 他們就切掉水源
18:59
And, because democracy still exists,
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同時, 因為民主仍然存在
19:02
there's a democratic way in which you say
419
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你會說, 這是一個民主的方法
19:05
"Well, if you give us what [we want], we'll give you water."
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對, 如果你給我們所要的, 我們會給你水
19:08
So, okay my time is up.
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啊, 對了, 我的時間够了
19:10
But I can go on about telling you
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但我仍可以繼續告訴你
19:12
how we evolve stories,
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我們怎樣衍生故事
19:14
and how stories effectively are who we are
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以及故事怎樣有效的變成我們是誰
19:17
and how these get translated into the particular discipline
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以及故事怎樣在不同的專業之中被傳譯
19:19
that I am in, which is film.
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就好像我, 在電影
19:21
But ultimately, what is a story? It's a contradiction.
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但最後, 什麼是故事? 這是一個矛盾
19:24
Everything's a contradiction.
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每一樣東西都是矛盾
19:26
The universe is a contradiction.
429
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宇宙是矛盾
19:28
And all of us are constantly looking for harmony.
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我們所有人都持續地追求和諧
19:30
When you get up, the night and day is a contradiction.
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當你起來, 日和夜是矛盾
19:32
But you get up at 4 a.m.
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但當你在早上四時醒來
19:34
That first blush of blue is where the night and day
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第一抹的藍天就是日和夜
19:36
are trying to find harmony with each other.
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在尋找大家共存的和諧
19:39
Harmony is the notes that Mozart didn't give you,
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和諧是莫扎特不會給你的音符
19:42
but somehow the contradiction of his notes suggest that.
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但有時, 他那些矛盾的音符又會展現和諧
19:44
All contradictions of his notes suggest the harmony.
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所以他那些矛盾的音符都在展示和諧
19:48
It's the effect of looking for harmony
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這就是追尋和諧的效果
19:50
in the contradiction that exists in a poet's mind,
439
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存在於詩人那些矛盾的意念
19:53
a contradiction that exists in a storyteller's mind.
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存在於說故事的人的矛盾意念
19:56
In a storyteller's mind, it's a contradiction of moralities.
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死亡就是創作者意念的相反
19:59
In a poet's mind, it's a conflict of words,
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詩人的意念, 跟文字其實是一場衝突
20:01
in the universe's mind, between day and night.
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在宇宙的意念, 在日和夜之間
20:04
In the mind of a man and a woman,
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在男人和女人的思想之中
20:06
we're looking constantly at
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男性和女性都在持續
20:08
the contradiction between male and female,
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發生衝突
20:10
we're looking for harmony within each other.
447
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但我們都在追尋大家共存的和諧
20:12
The whole idea of contradiction,
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整個矛盾的概念
20:15
but the acceptance of contradiction
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但接納矛盾
20:18
is the telling of a story, not the resolution.
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是在說一個故事, 不是一個解決的方法
20:20
The problem with a lot of the storytelling in Hollywood
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在好箂塢, 說故事最大的問題
20:22
and many films, and as [unclear] was saying in his,
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在許多電影,
20:25
that we try to resolve the contradiction.
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就是我們嘗試去解決所有的矛盾
20:28
Harmony is not resolution.
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和諧不是解決
20:30
Harmony is the suggestion of a thing
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和諧是展現一些
20:32
that is much larger than resolution.
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比起解決最更大的事
20:34
Harmony is the suggestion of something
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和諧是展示一些
20:36
that is embracing and universal
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能够擁抱宇宙
20:39
and of eternity and of the moment.
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擁抱永恒, 以及那一刻的一些東西
20:41
Resolution is something that is far more limited.
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解決是一些很有限的東西
20:45
It is finite; harmony is infinite.
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它是有限的, 和諧是無限的
20:48
So that storytelling, like all other contradictions in the universe,
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所以講故事, 就好像宇宙裡所有的衝突
20:51
is looking for harmony and infinity
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都在追尋和諧和無限
20:54
in moral resolutions, resolving one, but letting another go,
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在世的處理, 解決了一件事, 但放棄了另一件事
20:57
letting another go and creating a question that is really important.
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放下和創造問題確實是很重要的
21:01
Thank you very much.
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謝謝大家
21:03
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Shekhar Kapur - Director and writerShekhar Kapur is a visionary filmmaker and storyteller who works at the intersection of art, myth and activism.
Why you should listen
Golden Globe-winning director Shekhar Kapur makes lush, international period films -- such as Elizabeth and The Four Feathers -- and Indian hits like Mr. India and Bandit Queen. Most recently, Kapur's short film "Passages"" is part of the October 2009 film anthology New York, I Love You. Also this October, he sat on the judging panel for 1 Minute to Save the World, a competition for short films about climate change. (And yes, last summer, he was a judge on India's Got Talent.)
His forthcoming film Paani – the hindi word for water – explores mumbai's shrinking supply of water and its distribution underworld. equally at home in hollywood and Bollywood, he's also a comics mogul; in 2006 he co-founded Virgin Comics as a venue for turning Indian and Hindu myths into pop-culture icons. For the company, now reorganized as Liquid Comics, he cocreated the series Ramayan 3392 A.D., based on the Ramayana. His newest Liquid series: Devi.
Shekhar Kapur | Speaker | TED.com