TED2008
Philip Zimbardo: The psychology of evil
Philip Zimbardo: Hvordan normale mennesker bliver monstre ... eller helte
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Philip Zimbardo ved, hvor let det er for gode mennesker at blive dårlige. I denne tale deler han indsigt og levende, ikke før sete billeder fra Abu Ghraib-retssagerne. Derefter taler han om det modsatte: hvor let det er at blive en helt, og hvordan vi kan tage udfordringen op.
Philip Zimbardo - Psychologist
Philip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib. His book The Lucifer Effect explores the nature of evil; now, in his new work, he studies the nature of heroism. Full bio
Philip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib. His book The Lucifer Effect explores the nature of evil; now, in his new work, he studies the nature of heroism. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Philosophers, dramatists, theologians
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Filosoffer, dramatikere, teologer
00:16
have grappled with this question for centuries:
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har kæmpet med dette spørgsmål i århundreder:
00:18
what makes people go wrong?
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hvad får folk til at blive dårlige?
00:20
Interestingly, I asked this question when I was a little kid.
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Interessant nok stillede jeg dette spørgsmål, da jeg var lille.
00:23
When I was a kid growing up in the South Bronx, inner-city ghetto
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Da jeg var barn og voksede op i det sydlige Bronx' ghetto
00:25
in New York, I was surrounded by evil,
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i New York, var jeg omringet af ondskab,
00:28
as all kids are who grew up in an inner city.
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som alle børn er, der vokser op i den indre by.
00:30
And I had friends who were really good kids,
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Og jeg havde venner, der var virkelig gode børn,
00:32
who lived out the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde scenario -- Robert Louis Stevenson.
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der udlevede Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde-scenariet -- Robert Louis Stevenson.
00:36
That is, they took drugs, got in trouble, went to jail.
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Det vil sige, de tog stoffer, kom i problemer, kom i fængsel.
00:40
Some got killed, and some did it without drug assistance.
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Nogle blev dræbt, nogle uden stoffernes hjælp.
00:44
So when I read Robert Louis Stevenson, that wasn't fiction.
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Så, da jeg læste Robert Louis Stevenson, var det ikke fiktion.
00:47
The only question is, what was in the juice?
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Det eneste spørgsmål er, hvad var i juicen?
00:48
And more importantly, that line between good and evil --
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Og vigtigere, den linje mellem godt og ondt --
00:53
which privileged people like to think is fixed and impermeable,
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som priviligerede folk kan lide at tænke på som fast og uigennemtrængelig,
00:56
with them on the good side, and the others on the bad side --
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med dem på den gode side og de andre på den dårlige side --
00:59
I knew that line was movable, and it was permeable.
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Jeg vidste, den linje var bevægelig og gennemtrængelig.
01:02
Good people could be seduced across that line,
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Gode mennesker kunne forføres over den linje,
01:05
and under good and some rare circumstances, bad kids could recover
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og under gode og sjældne omstændigheder kunne dårlige børn komme sig
01:08
with help, with reform, with rehabilitation.
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med hjælp, med forbedring, med afvænning.
01:12
So I want to begin with this this wonderful illusion
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Så jeg vil begynde med denne skønne illusion
01:14
by [Dutch] artist M.C. Escher.
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af [hollandske] kunstner M.C. Escher.
01:17
If you look at it and focus on the white,
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Hvis man ser på den og fokuserer på det hvide,
01:18
what you see is a world full of angels.
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hvad man ser, er en verden fuld af engle.
01:20
But let's look more deeply, and as we do,
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Men lad os se dybere, og som vi gør det,
01:23
what appears is the demons, the devils in the world.
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kommer dæmonerne, verdens djævle frem.
01:27
And that tells us several things.
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Og det fortæller flere ting.
01:28
One, the world is, was, will always be filled with good and evil,
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Ét, verden er, var, vil altid være fyldt med godt og ondt,
01:31
because good and evil is the yin and yang of the human condition.
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for godt og ondt er den menneskelige tilværelses yin og yang.
01:34
It tells me something else. If you remember,
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Det fortæller mig noget andet. Hvis I husker,
01:36
God's favorite angel was Lucifer.
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var Guds yndlingsengel Lucifer.
01:39
Apparently, Lucifer means "the light."
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Åbenbart betyder Lucifer "Lyset."
01:42
It also means "the morning star," in some scripture.
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Det betyder også "morgenstjernen" i nogle tekster.
01:44
And apparently, he disobeyed God,
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Og han adlød ikke Gud,
01:47
and that's the ultimate disobedience to authority.
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og det er den ultimative autoritetsulydighed.
01:50
And when he did, Michael, the archangel, was sent
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Og da han gjorde det, blev ærkeenglen Mikael sendt
01:54
to kick him out of heaven along with the other fallen angels.
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for at sparke ham ud af himlen sammen med de andre faldne engle.
01:57
And so Lucifer descends into hell, becomes Satan,
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Og så stiger Lucifer ned i helvede, bliver Satan,
02:01
becomes the devil, and the force of evil in the universe begins.
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bliver Djævelen, og ondskabens kraft i universet begynder.
02:03
Paradoxically, it was God who created hell as a place to store evil.
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Paradoksalt nok skabte Gud helvede for at opbevare ondskab.
02:09
He didn't do a good job of keeping it there though.
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Han var dog ikke god til at holde den der.
02:10
So, this arc of the cosmic transformation
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Så denne bue af kosmisk forvandling
02:13
of God's favorite angel into the Devil,
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af Guds yndlingsengel til Djævelen
02:15
for me, sets the context for understanding human beings
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giver for mig sammenhængen til at forstå folk,
02:19
who are transformed from good, ordinary people
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der bliver forvandlet fra gode, normale folk
02:22
into perpetrators of evil.
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til udøvere af ondskab.
02:24
So the Lucifer effect, although it focuses on the negatives --
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Så Lucifer-effekten, selvom den fokuserer på de negative --
02:28
the negatives that people can become,
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de negative ting, folk kan blive,
02:31
not the negatives that people are --
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ikke de negative ting, folk er --
02:32
leads me to a psychological definition. Evil is the exercise of power.
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leder mig til en psykologisk definition. Ondskab er udøvelsen af magt.
02:38
And that's the key: it's about power.
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Og det er nøglen: det handler om magt.
02:40
To intentionally harm people psychologically,
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Til bevidst at skade mennesker psykologisk,
02:44
to hurt people physically, to destroy people mortally, or ideas,
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til at skade folk fysisk, til at ødelægge folk dødeligt, eller idéer,
02:47
and to commit crimes against humanity.
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og til at begå forbrydelser imod menneskeheden.
02:51
If you Google "evil," a word that should surely have withered by now,
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Hvis man googler "ondskab," et ord der sikkert er visnet nu,
02:54
you come up with 136 million hits in a third of a second.
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får man 136 millioner resultater på en tredjedel af et sekund.
02:58
A few years ago -- I am sure all of you were shocked, as I was,
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For et par år siden -- I blev nok alle chokerede, som jeg blev,
03:02
with the revelation of American soldiers
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over afsløringen af amerikanske soldater,
03:05
abusing prisoners in a strange place
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der misbrugte fanger et mærkeligt sted
03:08
in a controversial war, Abu Ghraib in Iraq.
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i en kontroversiel krig, Abu Ghraib i Irak.
03:11
And these were men and women
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Og disse var mænd og kvinder,
03:12
who were putting prisoners through unbelievable humiliation.
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der trak fanger igennem utrolig ydmygelse.
03:18
I was shocked, but I wasn't surprised,
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Jeg blev chokeret, men jeg blev ikke overrasket,
03:19
because I had seen those same visual parallels
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for jeg havde set de samme visuelle paralleller,
03:22
when I was the prison superintendent of the Stanford Prison Study.
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da jeg var fængselsdirektøren i Stanford Fængselsforsøget.
03:25
Immediately the Bush administration military said ... what?
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Straks sagde Bush-administrationens militær ... hvad?
03:28
What all administrations say when there's a scandal.
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Hvad alle administrationer siger, når der er en skandale.
03:30
"Don't blame us. It's not the system. It's the few bad apples,
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"Giv ikke os skylden. Det er ikke systemet, men de få dårlige æblers,
03:34
the few rogue soldiers."
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de få uberegnelige soldaters."
03:35
My hypothesis is, American soldiers are good, usually.
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Min hypotese er, amerikanske soldater er gode, som regel.
03:38
Maybe it was the barrel that was bad.
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Måske var det tønden, der var dårlig.
03:40
But how am I going to -- how am I going to deal with that hypothesis?
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Men hvordan vil jeg håndtere den hypotese?
03:43
I became an expert witness
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Jeg blev ekspertvidne
03:44
for one of the guards, Sergeant Chip Frederick,
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for en af vagterne, Sergent Chip Frederick,
03:46
and in that position, I had access to the dozen investigative reports.
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og i den position havde jeg adgang til alle efterforskningsrapporterne.
03:50
I had access to him. I could study him,
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Jeg havde ham, kunne studere ham,
03:54
have him come to my home, get to know him,
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få ham med hjem, lære ham at kende,
03:55
do psychological analysis to see, was he a good apple or bad apple.
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lave psykologisk analyse og se, var han et godt eller dårligt æble.
03:59
And thirdly, I had access to all of the 1,000 pictures
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Og for det tredje havde jeg alle 1.000 billeder,
04:03
that these soldiers took.
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som disse soldater tog.
04:05
These pictures are of a violent or sexual nature.
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Disse billeder er af voldelig eller seksuel natur.
04:07
All of them come from the cameras of American soldiers.
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De kommer alle fra amerikanske soldaters kameraer.
04:11
Because everybody has a digital camera or cell phone camera,
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Fordi alle har et digitalt kamera eller mobiltelefonkamera,
04:13
they took pictures of everything. More than 1,000.
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tog de billeder af alt. Mere end 1.000.
04:16
And what I've done is I organized them into various categories.
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Og det, jeg har gjort, er, jeg organiserede dem under forskellige kategorier.
04:18
But these are by United States military police, army reservists.
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Men disse er af det amerikanske militærpoliti, reservesoldater.
04:24
They are not soldiers prepared for this mission at all.
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De er ikke soldater, der er forberedt på denne mission overhovedet.
04:27
And it all happened in a single place, Tier 1-A, on the night shift.
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Og det skete alt sammen et enkelt sted, Afdeling 1-A, på nattevagten.
04:32
Why? Tier 1-A was the center for military intelligence.
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Hvorfor? Afdeling 1-A var centeret for militærefterretningsvæsnet.
04:35
It was the interrogation hold. The CIA was there.
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Det var forhørsfæstningen. CIA var der.
04:39
Interrogators from Titan Corporation, all there,
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Forhørsledere fra Titan Corp. (efterretningsfirma)
04:41
and they're getting no information about the insurgency.
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og de får ingen informationer om opstanden.
04:45
So they're going to put pressure on these soldiers,
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Så de lægger pres på disse soldater,
04:46
military police, to cross the line,
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militærpolitiet, til at krydse linjen,
04:49
give them permission to break the will of the enemy,
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give dem tilladelse til at knække fjendens vilje,
04:52
to prepare them for interrogation, to soften them up,
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til at forberede dem på forhør, til at bløde dem op,
04:54
to take the gloves off. Those are the euphemisms,
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til at tage fløjlshandskerne af. Disse er de pæne formuleringer,
04:56
and this is how it was interpreted.
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og sådan her blev det fortolket.
05:00
Let's go down to that dungeon.
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Lad os gå ned i det fangehul.
05:01
(Camera shutter)
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(Kameraklik)
05:38
(Thuds)
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(Dump lyd)
05:45
(Camera shutter)
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(Kameraklik)
05:59
(Thuds)
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(Dump lyd)
06:09
(Breathing)
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(Åndedrag)
06:17
(Bells)
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(Klokker)
06:49
So, pretty horrific.
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Så, ret rædsomt.
06:52
That's one of the visual illustrations of evil.
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Det er en af de visuelle illustrationer af ondskab.
06:55
And it should not have escaped you that
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Og I bør have set, at
06:56
the reason I paired the prisoner with his arms out
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grunden til, jeg placerede fangen med sine arme ude
07:00
with Leonardo da Vinci's ode to humanity
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med Leonardo da Vincis hyldest til mennesket,
07:03
is that that prisoner was mentally ill.
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er, at den fange var psykisk syg.
07:05
That prisoner covered himself with shit every day,
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Den fange dækkede sig selv med lort hver dag,
07:07
and they used to have to roll him in dirt so he wouldn't stink.
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og de plejede at skulle rulle ham i skidt, så han ikke stank.
07:10
But the guards ended up calling him "Shit Boy."
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Men vagterne endte med at kalde ham "Lortedrengen."
07:12
What was he doing in that prison
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Hvad lavede han i det fængsel
07:14
rather than in some mental institution?
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frem for på et sindssygehospital?
07:17
In any event, here's former Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld.
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Uanset hvad, her er tidligere Forsvarsminister Rumsfeld.
07:20
He comes down and says, "I want to know, who is responsible?
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Han kommer ned og siger, "Jeg vil vide, hvem er ansvarlig?
07:22
Who are the bad apples?" Well, that's a bad question.
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Hvem er de dårlige æbler?" Altså, det er et dårligt spørgsmål.
07:25
You have to reframe it and ask, "What is responsible?"
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Man må omformulere det og spørge, "Hvad er ansvarligt?"
07:28
Because "what" could be the who of people,
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For "hvad" kunne være hvem som i folk,
07:30
but it could also be the what of the situation,
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men det kunne også være hvad som i situationen,
07:32
and obviously that's wrongheaded.
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og det tydeligvis, hvor jeg vil hen.
07:34
So how do psychologists go about understanding
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Så hvordan bærer psykologer sig ad med at forstå
07:36
such transformations of human character,
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sådanne forvandlinger af menneskets karakter,
07:38
if you believe that they were good soldiers
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hvis man tror på, at de var gode soldater,
07:40
before they went down to that dungeon?
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før de gik ned i det fangehul?
07:42
There are three ways. The main way is -- it's called dispositional.
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Der er tre måder. Hovedmåden hedder dispositionel.
07:44
We look at what's inside of the person, the bad apples.
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Vi ser på det, der inden i personen, de dårlige æbler.
07:48
This is the foundation of all of social science,
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Dette er grundlaget for al samfundsvidenskab,
07:51
the foundation of religion, the foundation of war.
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grundlaget for religion, grundlaget for krig.
07:55
Social psychologists like me come along and say, "Yeah,
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Socialpsykologer som jeg kommer og siger, "Jah,
07:57
people are the actors on the stage,
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folk er skuespillerne på scenen,
07:59
but you'll have to be aware of what that situation is.
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men man skal være bevidst om, hvordan den situation er.
08:01
Who are the cast of characters? What's the costume?
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Hvem er de medvirkende? Hvordan er udklædningen?
08:04
Is there a stage director?"
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Er der en regissør?"
08:05
And so we're interested in, what are the external factors
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Og derfor er vi interesserede i, hvad er de eksterne faktorer
08:08
around the individual -- the bad barrel?
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omkring individet -- den dårlige tønde?
08:10
And social scientists stop there, and they miss the big point
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Og samfundsforskere stopper der, og de går glip af den store pointe,
08:13
that I discovered when I became an expert witness for Abu Ghraib.
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som jeg opdagede, da jeg blev ekspertvidne i Abu Ghraib.
08:16
The power is in the system.
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Magten er i systemet.
08:18
The system creates the situation that corrupts the individuals,
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Systemet skaber situationen, der fordærver individerne,
08:21
and the system is the legal, political, economic, cultural background.
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og systemet er den retslige, politiske, økonomiske, kulturelle baggrund.
08:26
And this is where the power is of the bad-barrel makers.
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Og her ligger magten hos dårlige-tønder-magerne.
08:29
So if you want to change a person, you've got to change the situation.
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Så vil man ændre en person, må man ændre situationen.
08:32
If you want to change the situation,
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Hvis man vil ændre situationen,
08:33
you've got to know where the power is, in the system.
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må man vide, hvor magten er i systemet.
08:35
So the Lucifer effect involves understanding
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Så Lucifer-effekten involverer at forstå
08:37
human character transformations with these three factors.
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forvandlinger af menneskelig karakterer med disse tre faktorer.
08:43
And it's a dynamic interplay.
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Og det er et dynamisk samspil.
08:44
What do the people bring into the situation?
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Hvad bringer personerne med ind i situationen?
08:46
What does the situation bring out of them?
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Hvad bringer situationen ud af dem?
08:48
And what is the system that creates and maintains that situation?
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Og hvordan er systemet, der skaber og opretholder den situation?
08:52
So my book, "The Lucifer Effect," recently published, is about,
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Så min nye bog, "The Lucifer Effect," handler om,
08:54
how do you understand how good people turn evil?
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hvordan forstår man, hvordan gode personer bliver onde?
08:57
And it has a lot of detail
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Og den har en masse detaljer,
08:58
about what I'm going to talk about today.
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om hvad jeg vil tale om i dag.
09:01
So Dr. Z's "Lucifer Effect," although it focuses on evil,
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Så Dr. Z.'s "Lucifer Effect," selvom den fokuserer på ondskab,
09:04
really is a celebration of the human mind's
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er virkelig en fejring af det menneskelige sinds
09:06
infinite capacity to make any of us kind or cruel,
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uendelige kapacitet til at gøre enhver rar eller grusom,
09:10
caring or indifferent, creative or destructive,
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omsorgsfuld eller ligeglad, kreativ eller destruktiv,
09:13
and it makes some of us villains.
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og det gør nogle af os skurke.
09:15
And the good news story that I'm going to hopefully come to
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Og den gode nyhedshistorie, som jeg forhåbentlig når til
09:18
at the end is that it makes some of us heroes.
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til slut, er, at det gør nogle af os helte.
09:20
This is a wonderful cartoon in the New Yorker,
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Dette er en skøn tegning i The New Yorker,
09:23
which really summarizes my whole talk:
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som virkelig opsummerer hele min tale:
09:25
"I'm neither a good cop nor a bad cop, Jerome.
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"Jeg er hverken en god eller dårlig betjent, Jerome.
09:27
Like yourself, I'm a complex amalgam
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Som dig selv er jeg en kompleks blanding
09:29
of positive and negative personality traits
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af positive og negative personlige træk,
09:32
that emerge or not, depending on the circumstances."
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der kommer frem eller ej, afhængig af omstændighederne."
09:35
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
09:37
There's a study some of you think you know about,
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Der er en afhandling, nogle af jer tror, I kender til,
09:40
but very few people have ever read the story. You watched the movie.
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men meget få personer har nogensinde læst historien. I så filmen.
09:44
This is Stanley Milgram, little Jewish kid from the Bronx,
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Dette er Stanley Milgram, lille jødisk barn fra Bronx,
09:47
and he asked the question, "Could the Holocaust happen here, now?"
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og han stillede spørgsmålet, "Kunne Holocaust finde sted her, nu?"
09:51
People say, "No, that's Nazi Germany,
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Folk siger, "Nej, det var Nazityskland,
09:52
that's Hitler, you know, that's 1939."
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det var Hitler, du ved, det var 1939."
09:54
He said, "Yeah, but suppose Hitler asked you,
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Han sagde, "Jah, men forestil dig, Hitler spurgte dig,
09:56
'Would you electrocute a stranger?' 'No way, not me, I'm a good person.' "
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'Ville du give en fremmed strøm?' 'Aldrig, jeg er en god person.' "
10:00
He said, "Why don't we put you in a situation
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Han sagde, "Hvorfor sætter vi ikke dig i en situation
10:01
and give you a chance to see what you would do?"
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og giver dig en chance for at se, hvad du ville gøre?"
10:03
And so what he did was he tested 1,000 ordinary people.
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Og så, hvad han gjorde var, han testede 1.000 normale personer.
10:07
500 New Haven, Connecticut, 500 Bridgeport.
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500 New Haven, Connecticut, 500 Bridgeport.
10:10
And the ad said, "Psychologists want to understand memory.
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Og annoncen sagde, "Psykologer vil forstå hukommelsen.
10:14
We want to improve people's memory,
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Vi vil forbedre folks hukommelse,
10:15
because memory is the key to success." OK?
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fordi hukommelsen er nøglen til succes." OK?
10:18
"We're going to give you five bucks -- four dollars for your time."
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"Vi vil give jer 30 kroner -- 20 kroner for jeres tid."
10:24
And it said, "We don't want college students.
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Og den sagde, "Vi vil ikke have universitetsstuderende.
10:25
We want men between 20 and 50."
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Vi vil have mænd mellem 20 og 50."
10:27
In the later studies, they ran women.
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I de senere studier, brugte de kvinder.
10:28
Ordinary people: barbers, clerks, white-collar people.
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Normale mennesker: barberer, kontorfolk, funktionærer.
10:32
So, you go down, and one of you is going to be a learner,
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Så, I går ned, og en af jer skal være elev,
10:35
and one of you is going to be a teacher.
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og en af jer skal være lærer.
10:36
The learner's a genial, middle-aged guy.
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Eleven er en venlig, midaldrende fyr.
10:38
He gets tied up to the shock apparatus in another room.
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Han bliver spændt fast til chokapparatet i et andet rum.
10:41
The learner could be middle-aged, could be as young as 20.
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Eleven kunne være midaldrende, kunne være så ung som 20.
10:44
And one of you is told by the authority, the guy in the lab coat,
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Og en af jer får at vide af autoriteten, fyren i kitlen,
10:48
"Your job as teacher is to give this guy material to learn.
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"Dit job som lærer er at give denne fyr materiale at lære.
10:51
Gets it right, reward him.
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Lærer han det, beløn ham.
10:52
Gets it wrong, you press a button on the shock box.
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Lærer han ikke, trykker du en knap på chokkassen.
10:54
The first button is 15 volts. He doesn't even feel it."
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Den første knap er 15 volt. Han mærker det ikke engang."
10:58
That's the key. All evil starts with 15 volts.
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Det er nøglen. Al ondskab starter ved 15 volt.
11:01
And then the next step is another 15 volts.
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Og det næste skridt er 15 volt mere.
11:04
The problem is, at the end of the line, it's 450 volts.
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Problemet er, at i slutningen er det 450 volt.
11:06
And as you go along, the guy is screaming,
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Og som man skruer op, skriger fyren,
11:09
"I've got a heart condition! I'm out of here!"
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"Jeg har en hjertesygdom! Jeg vil ud herfra!"
11:11
You're a good person. You complain.
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Du er en god person. Du klager.
11:13
"Sir, who's going to be responsible if something happens to him?"
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"Sir, hvem tager ansvaret, hvis der sker noget med ham?"
11:15
The experimenter says, "Don't worry, I will be responsible.
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Forsøgslederen siger, "Bare rolig, jeg tager ansvaret.
11:18
Continue, teacher."
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Fortsæt, lærer."
11:19
And the question is, who would go all the way to 450 volts?
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Og spørgsmålet er, hvem ville skrue helt op til 450 volt?
11:24
You should notice here, when it gets up to 375,
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I bør bemærke her, når den når 375,
11:26
it says, "Danger. Severe Shock."
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siger den, "Fare. Voldsomt chok."
11:28
When it gets up to here, there's "XXX" -- the pornography of power.
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Når den når herop, står der "XXX" -- magtens porno.
11:31
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
11:32
So Milgram asks 40 psychiatrists,
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Så Milgram spørger 40 psykiatere,
11:33
"What percent of American citizens would go to the end?"
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"Hvor stor procentdel af amerikanske borger ville gå hele vejen?"
11:37
They said only one percent. Because that's sadistic behavior,
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De sagde kun én procent. Fordi det er sadistisk opførsel,
11:40
and we know, psychiatry knows, only one percent of Americans are sadistic.
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og vi ved, psykiatrien ved, kun én procent af amerikanerne er sadistiske.
11:44
OK. Here's the data. They could not be more wrong.
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OK. Her er dataene. De kunne ikke tage mere fejl.
11:48
Two thirds go all the way to 450 volts. This was just one study.
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To tredjedele går hele vejen til 450 volt. Dette var bare ét studie.
11:53
Milgram did more than 16 studies. And look at this.
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Milgram foretog mere end 16 studier. Og se på det her.
11:56
In study 16, where you see somebody like you go all the way,
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I studie 16, hvor man ser nogen som sig selv gå hele vejen,
12:00
90 percent go all the way. In study five, if you see people rebel, 90 percent rebel.
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går 90 procent hele vejen. I studie fem, hvis man ser folk gøre oprør, gør 90 procent oprør.
12:06
What about women? Study 13 -- no different than men.
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Hvad med kvinder? Studie 13 -- ingen forskel fra mænd.
12:10
So Milgram is quantifying evil as the willingness of people
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Så Milgram kvantificerer ondskab som folks villighed
12:13
to blindly obey authority, to go all the way to 450 volts.
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til blindt at adlyde autoritet, til at gå hele vejen til 450 volt.
12:16
And it's like a dial on human nature.
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Og det er som en knap på menneskets natur.
12:18
A dial in a sense that you can make almost everybody totally obedient,
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En knap på den måde, at man kan gøre næsten enhver totalt adlydende,
12:23
down to the majority, down to none.
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ned til flertallet, ned til ingen.
12:25
So what are the external parallels? For all research is artificial.
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Så hvilke eksterne paralleller findes? For al forskning er kunstig.
12:29
What's the validity in the real world?
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Hvilken gyldighed har det i den virkelige verden?
12:30
912 American citizens committed suicide or were murdered
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912 amerikanske borgere begik selvmord eller blev myrdet
12:34
by family and friends in Guyana jungle in 1978,
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af familie og venner i Guyanas jungle i 1978,
12:37
because they were blindly obedient to this guy, their pastor --
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fordi de blindt adlød denne mand, deres pastor --
12:40
not their priest -- their pastor, Reverend Jim Jones.
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ikke deres præst -- deres pastor, Pastor Jim Jones.
12:42
He persuaded them to commit mass suicide.
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Han overtalte dem til at begå kollektivt selvmord.
12:46
And so, he's the modern Lucifer effect,
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Derfor er han den moderne Lucifer-effekt,
12:47
a man of God who becomes the Angel of Death.
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en Guds mand, der bliver Dødsenglen.
12:52
Milgram's study is all about individual authority to control people.
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Milgrams studie handler om individuel autoritet til at kontrollere folk.
12:56
Most of the time, we are in institutions,
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Det meste af tiden er vi i institutioner,
13:00
so the Stanford Prison Study is a study of the power of institutions
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så Stanford Fængselsstudiet er et studie af institutioners magt
13:03
to influence individual behavior.
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til at påvirke individuel opførsel.
13:05
Interestingly, Stanley Milgram and I were in the same high school class
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Interessant nok var Stanley Milgram og jeg i samme gymnasieklasse
13:08
in James Monroe in the Bronx, 1954.
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i James Monroe i Bronx, 1954.
13:13
So this study, which I did
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Så dette studie, som jeg foretog
13:14
with my graduate students, especially Craig Haney --
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med mine kandidatstuderende, især Craig Haney --
13:16
we also began work with an ad.
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vi begyndte også med en annonce.
13:17
We didn't have money, so we had a cheap, little ad,
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Vi havde ikke penge, så vi havde en billig, lille annonce,
13:19
but we wanted college students for a study of prison life.
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men vi ville have universitetsstuderende til et studie af fængselsliv.
13:22
75 people volunteered, took personality tests.
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75 personer meldte sig, tog personlighedstests.
13:25
We did interviews. Picked two dozen:
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Vi foretog interview. Valgte to dusin:
13:27
the most normal, the most healthy.
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de mest normale, de sundeste.
13:29
Randomly assigned them to be prisoner and guard.
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Vi valgte tilfældigt hvem, der skulle være fange og vagt.
13:31
So on day one, we knew we had good apples.
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Så på dag et vidste vi, vi havde gode æbler.
13:33
I'm going to put them in a bad situation.
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Jeg vil sætte dem i en dårlig situation.
13:35
And secondly, we know there's no difference
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Og for det andet vidste vi, der ikke er nogen forskel
13:38
between the boys who are going to be guards
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på drengene, der skal være vagter,
13:39
and the boys who are going to be prisoners.
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og drengene, der skal være fanger.
13:41
The kids who were going to be prisoners,
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Børnene, der skulle være fanger,
13:42
we said, "Wait at home in the dormitories. The study will begin Sunday."
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vi sagde, "Vent hjemme på kollegierne. Studiet begynder på søndag."
13:45
We didn't tell them
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Vi fortalte dem ikke,
13:46
that the city police were going to come and do realistic arrests.
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at bypolitiet ville komme og foretage realistiske anholdelser.
14:22
(Video) Student: A police car pulls up in front, and a cop comes to the front door,
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(Video) Studerende: En politibil trækker op foran, og en betjent kommer til fordøren
14:28
and knocks, and says he's looking for me.
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og banker og siger, han leder efter mig.
14:30
So they, right there, you know, they took me out the door,
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Så lige der tog de mig ud af døren,
14:33
they put my hands against the car.
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de satte mine hænder mod bilen.
14:36
It was a real cop car, it was a real policeman,
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Det var en ægte politibil, det var en ægte politimand,
14:39
and there were real neighbors in the street,
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og der var ægte naboer på gaden,
14:40
who didn't know that this was an experiment.
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der ikke vidste, at dette var et eksperiment.
14:44
And there was cameras all around and neighbors all around.
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Og der var kameraer og naboer over det hele.
14:47
They put me in the car, then they drove me around Palo Alto.
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De satte mig ind i bilen, så kørte de mig rundt i Palo Alto.
14:52
They took me to the police station,
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De tog mig til politistationen,
14:55
the basement of the police station. Then they put me in a cell.
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politistationens kælder. Så satte de mig i en celle.
15:05
I was the first one to be picked up, so they put me in a cell,
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Jeg var den første, der blev samlet op, så de satte mig en celle,
15:07
which was just like a room with a door with bars on it.
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der var som et rum med en dør med tremmer.
15:12
You could tell it wasn't a real jail.
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Man kunne se, det ikke var et ægte fængsel.
15:13
They locked me in there, in this degrading little outfit.
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De låste mig inde i dette nedværdigende tøj.
15:19
They were taking this experiment too seriously.
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De tog dette eksperiment for seriøst.
15:21
Philip Zimbardo: Here are the prisoners who are going to be dehumanized.
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Philip Zimbardo: Her er fangerne, der skal umenneskeliggøres.
15:23
They're going to become numbers.
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De vil blive til tal.
15:24
Here are the guards with the symbols of power and anonymity.
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Her er vagterne med magtens og anonymitetens symboler.
15:27
Guards get prisoners
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Vagter får fanger
15:28
to clean the toilet bowls out with their bare hands,
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til at rensetoiletkummerne med deres bare hænder,
15:30
to do other humiliating tasks.
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til at lave andre ydmygende opgaver.
15:32
They strip them naked. They sexually taunt them.
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De klæder dem af. De håner dem seksuelt.
15:34
They begin to do degrading activities,
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De begynder at lave nedværdigende aktiviteter,
15:36
like having them simulate sodomy.
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som at få dem til at simulere sodomi.
15:38
You saw simulating fellatio in soldiers in Abu Ghraib.
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I så simuleret fellatio ved soldater i Abu Ghraib.
15:41
My guards did it in five days. The stress reaction was so extreme
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Mine vagter gjorde det på fem dage. Stressreaktionen var så ekstrem,
15:46
that normal kids we picked because they were healthy
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at normale børn, vi valgte, fordi de var sunde,
15:48
had breakdowns within 36 hours.
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brød sammen inden 36 timer.
15:50
The study ended after six days, because it was out of control.
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Studiet stoppede efter seks dage, fordi det var ude af kontrol.
15:54
Five kids had emotional breakdowns.
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Fem børn havde følelsesmæssige sammenbrud.
15:58
Does it make a difference if warriors go to battle
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Gør det en forskel, om krigere går i kamp
16:00
changing their appearance or not?
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og forandrer deres udseende eller ej?
16:02
Does it make a difference if they're anonymous,
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Gør anonymitet en forskel
16:03
in how they treat their victims?
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for måden, hvorpå de behandler deres ofre?
16:05
We know in some cultures, they go to war,
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I nogle kulturer går de i krig
16:06
they don't change their appearance.
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uden at ændre deres udseende.
16:07
In other cultures, they paint themselves like "Lord of the Flies."
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I andre kulturer maler de sig som i "Fluernes Herre."
16:09
In some, they wear masks.
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I nogle bærer de masker.
16:11
In many, soldiers are anonymous in uniform.
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I mange er soldaterne anonyme i uniform.
16:14
So this anthropologist, John Watson, found
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So denne antropolog, John Watson, fandt
16:17
23 cultures that had two bits of data.
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23 kulturer, der havde to dele af data.
16:19
Do they change their appearance? 15.
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Ændrede de deres udseende? 15.
16:21
Do they kill, torture, mutilate? 13.
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Dræber, torturerer, lemlæster de? 13.
16:23
If they don't change their appearance,
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Hvis de ikke ændrer deres udseende,
16:25
only one of eight kills, tortures or mutilates.
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dræber, torturerer eller lemlæster kun en ud af otte.
16:27
The key is in the red zone.
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Nøglen er i den røde zone.
16:29
If they change their appearance,
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Hvis de ændrer deres udseende,
16:30
12 of 13 -- that's 90 percent -- kill, torture, mutilate.
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vil 12 ud af 13 -- det er 90 procent -- dræbe, torturere, lemlæste.
16:35
And that's the power of anonymity.
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Og det er anonymitetens magt.
16:36
So what are the seven social processes
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Så hvilke syv sociale processer
16:38
that grease the slippery slope of evil?
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smører ondskabens glidebane?
16:40
Mindlessly taking the first small step.
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At tage det første lille skridt uden at tænke.
16:42
Dehumanization of others. De-individuation of Self.
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Umenneskeliggørelse af andre. Af-individualisering af Selv'et.
16:45
Diffusion of personal responsibility. Blind obedience to authority.
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Spredning af personligt ansvar. Blind lydighed over for autoritet.
16:49
Uncritical conformity to group norms.
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Ukritisk tilpassethed til gruppenormer.
16:50
Passive tolerance to evil through inaction or indifference.
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Passiv tolerance af ondskab gennem manglende handling eller ligegyldighed.
16:54
And it happens when you're in a new or unfamiliar situation.
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Og det sker, når man er i en ny eller ukendt situation.
16:56
Your habitual response patterns don't work.
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Ens vanemæssige reaktionsmønstre virker ikke.
16:59
Your personality and morality are disengaged.
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Ens personlighed og moral er frigjort.
17:01
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer;
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"Intet er lettere end at fordømme udøveren af ondskab;
17:04
nothing more difficult than understanding him," Dostoyevksy tells us.
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intet sværere end at forstå ham," fortæller Dostojevskij os.
17:07
Understanding is not excusing. Psychology is not excuse-iology.
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At forstå er ikke at undskylde. Psykologi er ikke undskyld-ologi.
17:12
So social and psychological research reveals
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Så social og psykologisk forskning afslører,
17:13
how ordinary, good people can be transformed without the drugs.
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hvordan normale, gode mennesker kan blive forvandlet uden stofferne.
17:17
You don't need it. You just need the social-psychological processes.
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Man behøver dem ikke. Man behøver bare de social-psykologiske processer.
17:20
Real world parallels? Compare this with this.
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Virkelige verden paralleller? Sammenlign dette med dette.
17:26
James Schlesinger -- and I'm going to have to end with this -- says,
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James Schlessinger -- og jeg bliver nødt at slutte med dette -- siger,
17:28
"Psychologists have attempted to understand how and why
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"Psykologer har forsøgt at forstå, hvordan og hvorfor
17:31
individuals and groups who usually act humanely
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individer og grupper, der som regel opfører sig menneskeligt,
17:33
can sometimes act otherwise in certain circumstances."
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nogle gange kan opføre sig anderledes under bestemte forhold."
17:37
That's the Lucifer effect.
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Det er Lucifer-effekten.
17:38
And he goes on to say, "The landmark Stanford study
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Og han fortsætter med at sige, "Milepælen, Stanford-studiet,
17:40
provides a cautionary tale for all military operations."
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fortæller en advarende fortælling til alle militære operationer."
17:44
If you give people power without oversight,
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Hvis man giver folk magt uden tilsyn,
17:47
it's a prescription for abuse. They knew that, and let that happen.
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er det en recept på misbrug. De vidste det, og lod det ske.
17:50
So another report, an investigative report by General Fay,
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Så en anden rapport, en efterforskningsrapport af General Fay,
17:55
says the system is guilty. And in this report,
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siger, systemet er skyldigt. Og i denne rapport,
17:57
he says it was the environment that created Abu Ghraib,
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siger han, det var miljøet, der skabte Abu Ghraib,
18:00
by leadership failures that contributed
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ved lederskabsbrister, der bidrog
18:02
to the occurrence of such abuse,
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til forekomsten af sådant misbrug,
18:03
and the fact that it remained undiscovered
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og det faktum, at det forblev uopdaget
18:05
by higher authorities for a long period of time.
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af højere autoriteter i lang tid.
18:07
Those abuses went on for three months. Who was watching the store?
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De misbrug stod på i tre måneder. Hvem holdt øje med butikken?
18:11
The answer is nobody, and, I think, nobody on purpose.
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Svaret er ingen og ingen med vilje.
18:14
He gave the guards permission to do those things,
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Han gav vagterne tilladelse til at gøre de ting,
18:15
and they knew nobody was ever going to come down to that dungeon.
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og de vidste, ingen nogensinde ville komme ned i det fangehul.
18:18
So you need a paradigm shift in all of these areas.
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Så man behøver et paradigmeskift på alle disse områder.
18:21
The shift is away from the medical model
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Skiftet er væk fra den medicinske model,
18:23
that focuses only on the individual.
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der kun fokuserer på individet.
18:25
The shift is toward a public health model
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Skiftet er imod en folkesundhedsmodel,
18:28
that recognizes situational and systemic vectors of disease.
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der erkender situations- og systemiske sygdomsvektorer.
18:31
Bullying is a disease. Prejudice is a disease. Violence is a disease.
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Mobning er en sygdom. Fordomsfuldhed er en sygdom. Vold er en sygdom.
18:35
And since the Inquisition, we've been dealing with problems
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Og siden Inkvisitionen, har vi håndteret problemer
18:37
at the individual level. And you know what? It doesn't work.
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på det individuelle niveau. Og ved I hvad? Det virker ikke.
18:40
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn says, "The line between good and evil
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Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn siger, "Linjen mellem godt og ondt
18:43
cuts through the heart of every human being."
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skærer gennem hjertet på ethvert menneske."
18:45
That means that line is not out there.
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Det betyder, den linje ikke er derude.
18:47
That's a decision that you have to make. That's a personal thing.
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Det er et valg, som man må foretage. Det er noget personligt.
18:50
So I want to end very quickly on a positive note.
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Så jeg vil slutte meget hurtigt af i en positiv tone.
18:53
Heroism as the antidote to evil,
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Heltemod er modgiften mod ondskab,
18:56
by promoting the heroic imagination,
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ved at fremkalde den heltemodige fantasi,
18:57
especially in our kids, in our educational system.
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især i vores børn, i vores uddannelsessystem.
19:00
We want kids to think, I'm the hero in waiting,
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Vi vil have børn til at tænke, jeg er den afventende helt,
19:02
waiting for the right situation to come along,
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venter på den rette situation kommer,
19:05
and I will act heroically.
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og jeg vil agere heroisk.
19:06
My whole life is now going to focus away from evil --
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Hele mit liv vil nu fokusere væk fra ondskab --
19:08
that I've been in since I was a kid -- to understanding heroes.
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som jeg har været i, siden jeg var barn -- for at forstå helte.
19:11
Banality of heroism
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Heltemodets banalitet
19:13
is, it's ordinary people who do heroic deeds.
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er, det er normale mennesker, der gør heroiske gerninger.
19:15
It's the counterpoint to Hannah Arendt's "Banality of Evil."
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Det er kontrasten til Hannah Arendts "Ondskabens Banalitet."
19:18
Our traditional societal heroes are wrong,
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Vores traditionelle samfundshelte er forkerte,
19:21
because they are the exceptions.
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fordi de er undtagelserne.
19:22
They organize their whole life around this.
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De organiserer hele deres liv omkring dette.
19:24
That's why we know their names.
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Det er derfor, vi kender deres navne.
19:25
And our kids' heroes are also wrong models for them,
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Og vores børns helte er også forkerte idoler,
19:27
because they have supernatural talents.
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for de har overnaturlige kræfter.
19:30
We want our kids to realize most heroes are everyday people,
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Vi vil have vores børn til at indse, de fleste helte er hverdagsfolk,
19:32
and the heroic act is unusual. This is Joe Darby.
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og den heroiske gerning er usædvanlig. Dette er Joe Darby.
19:36
He was the one that stopped those abuses you saw,
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Han var den, der stoppede de misbrug, I så,
19:38
because when he saw those images,
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for da han så de billeder,
19:40
he turned them over to a senior investigating officer.
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overleverede han dem til en auditør.
19:43
He was a low-level private, and that stopped it. Was he a hero? No.
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Han var en lavtrangerende menig, og det stoppede det. Var han en helt? Nej.
19:47
They had to put him in hiding, because people wanted to kill him,
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Man blev nødt til at skjule ham, fordi folk ville slå ham ihjel,
19:50
and then his mother and his wife.
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og så han mor og hans kone.
19:51
For three years, they were in hiding.
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I tre år gemte de sig.
19:53
This is the woman who stopped the Stanford Prison Study.
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Dette er kvinden, der stoppede Stanford Fængselsstudiet.
19:56
When I said it got out of control, I was the prison superintendent.
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Da jeg sagde, det kom ud af kontrol, var jeg fængselsdirektøren.
19:59
I didn't know it was out of control. I was totally indifferent.
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Jeg vidste ikke, det var ude af kontrol. Jeg var totalt ligeglad.
20:02
She came down, saw that madhouse and said,
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Hun kom ned, så det galehus og sagde,
20:04
"You know what, it's terrible what you're doing to those boys.
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"Ved du hvad, det er frygteligt, hvad du gør ved de drenge.
20:07
They're not prisoners, they're not guards,
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De er ikke fanger, de er ikke vagter,
20:08
they're boys, and you are responsible."
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de er drenge, og du er ansvarlig."
20:11
And I ended the study the next day.
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Og jeg stoppede forsøget dagen efter.
20:13
The good news is I married her the next year.
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Den gode nyhed er, jeg giftede mig med hende året efter.
20:15
(Laughter)
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(Latter)
20:18
(Applause)
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(Bifald)
20:25
I just came to my senses, obviously.
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Jeg kom bare til mig selv, tydeligvis.
20:27
So situations have the power to do, through --
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Så situationer har magten til at gøre, gennem --
20:31
but the point is, this is the same situation
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men pointen er, dette er den samme situation,
20:32
that can inflame the hostile imagination in some of us,
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der kan oppiske den fjendtlige fantasi i nogle af os,
20:36
that makes us perpetrators of evil,
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der gør os til udøvere af ondskab,
20:38
can inspire the heroic imagination in others. It's the same situation.
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kan inspirere den heroiske fantasi hos andre. Det er den samme situation.
20:42
And you're on one side or the other.
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Og man er på den ene eller anden side.
20:43
Most people are guilty of the evil of inaction,
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De fleste er skyldige i ondskab ved passivitet,
20:45
because your mother said, "Don't get involved. Mind your own business."
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fordi mor sagde, "Bland dig uden om. Pas dine egne sager."
20:48
And you have to say, "Mama, humanity is my business."
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Og man må sige, "Mor, menneskeheden er mine sager."
20:51
So the psychology of heroism is -- we're going to end in a moment --
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Så heltemodets psykologi er -- vi stopper om et øjeblik --
20:53
how do we encourage children in new hero courses,
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hvordan opildner vi børn i nye heltekurser,
20:57
that I'm working with Matt Langdon -- he has a hero workshop --
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som jeg arbejder med Matt Langdon -- han har et helteværksted --
21:00
to develop this heroic imagination, this self-labeling,
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til at udvikle denne heroiske fantasi, denne selv-markering,
21:03
"I am a hero in waiting," and teach them skills.
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"Jeg er en afventende helt," og lære dem evner.
21:06
To be a hero, you have to learn to be a deviant,
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For at være en helt må man lære at være afvigende,
21:09
because you're always going against the conformity of the group.
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for man vil altid gå imod gruppens tilpassethed.
21:11
Heroes are ordinary people whose social actions are extraordinary. Who act.
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Helte er normale mennesker, hvis sociale handlinger er usædvanlige. Som handler.
21:15
The key to heroism is two things.
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Nøglen til heltemod er to ting.
21:17
A: you've got to act when other people are passive.
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A: man må handle, når andre folk er passive.
21:20
B: you have to act socio-centrically, not egocentrically.
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B: man må handle socio-centreret, ikke egocentreret.
21:23
And I want to end with the story that some of you know,
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Og jeg vil slutte med historien, som nogle af jer kender,
21:25
about Wesley Autrey, New York subway hero.
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om Wesley Autrey, New York undergrundshelt.
21:27
Fifty-year-old African-American construction worker.
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Halvtreds år gamle afrikansk-amerikanske bygningsarbejder.
21:29
He's standing on a subway in New York.
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Han står i undergrunden i New York.
21:31
A white guy falls on the tracks.
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En hvid mand falder på skinnerne.
21:32
The subway train is coming. There's 75 people there.
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Undergrundstoget kommer. Der er 75 personer til stede.
21:35
You know what? They freeze.
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Ved I hvad? De fryser.
21:36
He's got a reason not to get involved.
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Han har en grund til ikke at blande sig.
21:38
He's black, the guy's white, and he's got two little kids.
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Han er sort, manden er hvid, og han har to små børn.
21:41
Instead, he gives his kids to a stranger,
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I stedet giver han sine børn til en fremmed,
21:42
jumps on the tracks, puts the guy between the tracks,
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springer på skinnerne, lægger manden mellem skinnerne,
21:45
lies on him, the subway goes over him.
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lægger sig på ham, toget kører over ham.
21:47
Wesley and the guy -- 20 and a half inches height.
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Wesley og manden -- 52 cm høje.
21:51
The train clearance is 21 inches.
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Togets højde er 53 cm.
21:53
A half an inch would have taken his head off.
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Halvanden cm ville have revet hovedet af ham.
21:56
And he said, "I did what anyone could do,"
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Og han sagde, "Jeg gjorde, hvad enhver kunne have gjort,"
21:59
no big deal to jump on the tracks.
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ikke noget stort at hoppe på skinnerne.
22:00
And the moral imperative is "I did what everyone should do."
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Og det moralske bud er, "Jeg gjorde, hvad enhver bør gøre."
22:04
And so one day, you will be in a new situation.
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Og derfor en dag vil man være i en ny situation.
22:07
Take path one, you're going to be a perpetrator of evil.
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Tag vej ét, man bliver en udøver af ondskab.
22:09
Evil, meaning you're going to be Arthur Andersen.
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Ond, og man bliver til Arthur Andersen.
22:12
You're going to cheat, or you're going to allow bullying.
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Man vil snyde, eller man vil mobbe.
22:14
Path two, you become guilty of the evil of passive inaction.
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Vej to, man bliver skyldig i ondskaben ved passiv inaktivitet.
22:17
Path three, you become a hero.
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Vej tre, man bliver en helt.
22:18
The point is, are we ready to take the path
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Pointen er, er vi klar til at tage vejen
22:21
to celebrating ordinary heroes,
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til at fejre normale helte,
22:23
waiting for the right situation to come along
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vente på, den rette situation kommer
22:25
to put heroic imagination into action?
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til at sætte heroisk fantasi til handling?
22:27
Because it may only happen once in your life,
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Fordi det sker måske kun én gang i ens liv,
22:31
and when you pass it by, you'll always know,
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og når man lader den passere, vil man altid vide,
22:32
I could have been a hero and I let it pass me by.
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jeg kunne være blevet en helt, og jeg lod det gå forbi.
22:35
So the point is thinking it and then doing it.
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Så pointen er at tænke det og så gøre det.
22:37
So I want to thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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Så jeg vil takke jer. Tak. Tak.
22:40
Let's oppose the power of evil systems at home and abroad,
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Lad os modsætte os onde systemers magt hjemme og generelt,
22:43
and let's focus on the positive.
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og lad os fokusere på det positive.
22:45
Advocate for respect of personal dignity, for justice and peace,
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Tale for respekt for personlig værdighed, retfærdighed og fred,
22:48
which sadly our administration has not been doing.
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hvilket vores regering sørgeligt nok ikke har gjort.
22:50
Thanks so much.
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Mange tak.
22:51
(Applause)
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(Bifald)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Philip Zimbardo - PsychologistPhilip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib. His book The Lucifer Effect explores the nature of evil; now, in his new work, he studies the nature of heroism.
Why you should listen
Philip Zimbardo knows what evil looks like. After serving as an expert witness during the Abu Ghraib trials, he wrote The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil. From Nazi comic books to the tactics of used-car salesmen, he explores a wealth of sources in trying to explain the psychology of evil.
A past president of the American Psychological Association and a professor emeritus at Stanford, Zimbardo retired in 2008 from lecturing, after 50 years of teaching his legendary introductory course in psychology. In addition to his work on evil and heroism, Zimbardo recently published The Time Paradox, exploring different cultural and personal perspectives on time.
Still well-known for his controversial Stanford Prison Experiment, Zimbardo in his new research looks at the psychology of heroism. He asks, "What pushes some people to become perpetrators of evil, while others act heroically on behalf of those in need?"
Philip Zimbardo | Speaker | TED.com