TEDGlobal 2009
Rebecca Saxe: How we read each other's minds
Rebecca Saxe: Si krijohen gjykimet morale ne tru
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Kuptimi i motiveve, besimeve, ndjenjave te me te dashureve dhe te huajve eshte nje talent i natyrshem per njerezit. Por si e bejme ate? Ketu, Rebecca Saxe ndan me ne punen laboratorike qe zbulon se si truri mendon per mendimet e njerezve te tjere-- dhe i gjykon veprimet e tyre.
Rebecca Saxe - Cognitive neuroscientist
Rebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others. Full bio
Rebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Today I'm going to talk to you about the problem of other minds.
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Sot, une do t'ju flas per problemet e mendjes.
00:15
And the problem I'm going to talk about
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Dhe problemi per te cilin do te flas
00:17
is not the familiar one from philosophy,
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nuk eshte nga pikpamja filozofike,
00:20
which is, "How can we know
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"Si mund ta dijme
00:22
whether other people have minds?"
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nese njerezit e tjere kane mendje?"
00:24
That is, maybe you have a mind,
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Kjo eshte, ndoshta ju keni mendje,
00:26
and everyone else is just a really convincing robot.
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por te gjithe te tjeret s'jane vetcse robote shume te bindur.
00:29
So that's a problem in philosophy,
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Pra ky eshte problemi filozofik.
00:31
but for today's purposes I'm going to assume
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Por per qellimet e sotme une po pretendoj
00:33
that many people in this audience have a mind,
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se shume njerez ne kete audience kane zgjuaresi,
00:35
and that I don't have to worry about this.
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dhe nuk behem merak per kete.
00:37
There is a second problem that is maybe even more familiar to us
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Eshte problemi i dyte qe ndoshta eshte me i njohur per ne
00:40
as parents and teachers and spouses
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sikurse prinderit dhe mesuesit dhe ciftet bashkeshortore,
00:43
and novelists,
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dhe novelistet,
00:45
which is, "Why is it so hard
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qe eshte, " Pse eshte kaq e veshtire
00:47
to know what somebody else wants or believes?"
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te dime cka do dhe cka beson dikush tjeter?"
00:49
Or perhaps, more relevantly,
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Ose ndoshta, me perkatsisht,
00:51
"Why is it so hard to change what somebody else wants or believes?"
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" Pse eshte aq e veshtire te ndryshojme dicka qe dikush pelqen ose beson?
00:54
I think novelists put this best.
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Une mendoj qe novelistet e vene kete me se miri.
00:56
Like Philip Roth, who said,
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Sic tha Philip Roth,
00:58
"And yet, what are we to do about this terribly significant business
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Dhe tash, cka do te bejme ne lidhje me kete biznes tmeresisht te rendesishem
01:01
of other people?
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te njerezve tjere?
01:03
So ill equipped are we all,
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Pra te gjithe ne jemi te keq pajisur,
01:05
to envision one another's interior workings
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per te parashikuar punen e brendshme te dikujt tjeter
01:07
and invisible aims."
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dhe qellimet e padukshme
01:09
So as a teacher and as a spouse,
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Si nje mesuese, dhe si nje bashkeshorte,
01:12
this is, of course, a problem I confront every day.
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ky eshte, padyshim problemi qe une perballem cdo dite.
01:14
But as a scientist, I'm interested in a different problem of other minds,
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Por si nje shkenctare, une jam e interesuar ne probleme te ndryshme te mendjeve tjera,
01:17
and that is the one I'm going to introduce to you today.
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dhe kjo eshte ajo qe une do t'ua prezantoj sot.
01:20
And that problem is, "How is it so easy
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Dhe ky problem eshte, " Sa e lehte eshte
01:22
to know other minds?"
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te njohim mendjet e tjera?"
01:24
So to start with an illustration,
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Pra te fillojme me nje ilustrim,
01:26
you need almost no information,
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ju gati s'ju duhet asnje informacion,
01:28
one snapshot of a stranger,
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nje foto e nje te huaji,
01:30
to guess what this woman is thinking,
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per te gjetur se cka eshte duke menduar kjo grua,
01:32
or what this man is.
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apo ky burre.
01:35
And put another way, the crux of the problem is
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Po ta themi ne nje menyre tjeter, thelbi i problemit eshte
01:37
the machine that we use for thinking about other minds,
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makina qe ne perdorim per te menduar per mendjet tjera,
01:40
our brain, is made up of pieces, brain cells,
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truri yne, eshte i perbere nga pjese, qeliza te trurit,
01:43
that we share with all other animals, with monkeys
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qe i ndajme me te gjitha kafshet tjera, majmunet
01:45
and mice and even sea slugs.
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dhe minjte e madje me kermijte e detit.
01:48
And yet, you put them together in a particular network,
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Dhe prape, ju i vendosoni te gjithe ata ne nje rrjet te vecante,
01:51
and what you get is the capacity to write Romeo and Juliet.
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dhe ajo cka perfitoni eshte kapaciteti te shkruani Romeo dhe Xhulieta.
01:54
Or to say, as Alan Greenspan did,
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Ose te themi, sic beri Alan Greenspan,
01:56
"I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
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" Une e di qe ju mendoni se e kuptoni ate qe menduat se une thashe,
01:59
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard
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por nuk jam e sigurt nese ju kuptuat se cka ju degjuat
02:01
is not what I meant."
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nuk eshte ajo cka doja te thoja."
02:03
(Laughter)
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( Te qeshura)
02:06
So, the job of my field of cognitive neuroscience
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Pra, puna ime ne fushen e neuroshkences njohese
02:08
is to stand with these ideas,
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eshte te qendroj me keto ide,
02:10
one in each hand.
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nga nje ne secilen dore.
02:12
And to try to understand how you can put together
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Dhe te mundohem te kuptoj si mund ti vendos se bashku
02:15
simple units, simple messages over space and time, in a network,
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unite te thjeshta, mesazhe te thjeshte mbi hapesiren dhe kohen, ne nje lidhje,
02:19
and get this amazing human capacity to think about minds.
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dhe te fitoj kete kapacitet te mrekullushem njerezor per te menduar rreth mendjes.
02:23
So I'm going to tell you three things about this today.
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Pra une do t'ju tregoj tri gjera per kete sot.
02:26
Obviously the whole project here is huge.
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Sic duket projekti ketu eshte i madh.
02:29
And I'm going to tell you just our first few steps
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Dhe une do t'ju tregoj vetem disa hapa te pare
02:32
about the discovery of a special brain region
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rreth zbulimit te nje regjioni te vecante te trurit
02:34
for thinking about other people's thoughts.
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per te menduarit rreth mendimeve te njerezve tjere.
02:36
Some observations on the slow development of this system
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Disa hulumtime ne zhvillimin e ngadalshem te ketij sistemi
02:38
as we learn how to do this difficult job.
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pasi ne mesojme si te bejme kete pune te veshtire.
02:42
And then finally, to show that some of the differences
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Dhe se fundi, te tregojme se disa nga dallimet
02:44
between people, in how we judge others,
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ne mes njerezve, se si ne i gjykojme te tjeret,
02:47
can be explained by differences in this brain system.
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mund te sqarohen nga dallimet ne kete sistem te trurit.
02:51
So first, the first thing I want to tell you is that
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Pra fillimisht, gjeja e pare qe dua t'ju tregoj
02:53
there is a brain region in the human brain, in your brains,
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eshte nje zone e trurit ne trurin njerezor, ne trurin tuaj,
02:56
whose job it is to think about other people's thoughts.
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puna e se cilit eshte te mendoje per mendimet e njerezve tjere.
02:59
This is a picture of it.
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Kjo eshte nje foto e tij.
03:01
It's called the Right Temporo-Parietal Junction.
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Quhet Nyja e djathte Temporo-Parietal.
03:03
It's above and behind your right ear.
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Eshte siper dhe mbrapa veshit tuaj te djathte.
03:05
And this is the brain region you used when you saw the pictures I showed you,
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Kjo eshte zona e trurit qe ju perdoret kur pate fotografine qe u tregova,
03:07
or when you read Romeo and Juliet
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ose kur keni lexuar Romeo dhe Xhulieta
03:09
or when you tried to understand Alan Greenspan.
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ose kur keni tentuar te kuptoni Alan Greenspan.
03:12
And you don't use it for solving any other kinds of logical problems.
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Dhe nuk e perdorni ate per te zgjidhur asnje problem logjik.
03:16
So this brain region is called the Right TPJ.
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Pra kjo zone e trurit quhet TPJ e djathte.
03:19
And this picture shows the average activation
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Dhe kjo fotografi tregon aktivizimin mesatar
03:21
in a group of what we call typical human adults.
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ne grupin qe ne i qujame te njeriu i rritur tipik.
03:23
They're MIT undergraduates.
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Ata jane student te MIT.
03:25
(Laughter)
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(te qeshura)
03:29
The second thing I want to say about this brain system
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Gjeja e dyte qe dua te them per kete sistem te trurit
03:31
is that although we human adults
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eshte se edhe pse ne njerezit e rritur
03:33
are really good at understanding other minds,
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jemi shume te zote ne kuptimin e mendjeve tjera,
03:35
we weren't always that way.
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nuk kemi qene gjithmone ashtu.
03:37
It takes children a long time to break into the system.
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Femijeve ju merr kohe te gjate te hyjne ne sistem.
03:40
I'm going to show you a little bit of that long, extended process.
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Do t'ju tregoj pak a shume per ate proces te gjere e te gjate.
03:44
The first thing I'm going to show you is a change between age three and five,
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Gjeja e pare qe do t'ju tregoj eshte ndryshimi midis moshes tre dhe pese,
03:47
as kids learn to understand
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pasi femijet mesojne te kuptojne
03:49
that somebody else can have beliefs that are different from their own.
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se dikush tjeter mund te kete besime qe jane ndryshe nga vetja e tyre.
03:52
So I'm going to show you a five-year-old
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Pra une do t'ju tregoj nje pese vjecar
03:54
who is getting a standard kind of puzzle
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qe kupton nje lloj standard te enigmes
03:56
that we call the false belief task.
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qe ne e quajme pune e besimit te rreme .
03:59
Rebecca Saxe (Video): This is the first pirate. His name is Ivan.
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Rebecca Saxe ( Video): Ky eshte pirati i pare. Emri i tij eshte Ivan.
04:02
And you know what pirates really like?
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Dhe a e din se cka ne te vertete piratet pelqejne?
04:04
Child: What? RS: Pirates really like cheese sandwiches.
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Femiju: Cka? RS: Piratet me te vertete pelqejne sanduice me djathe.
04:07
Child: Cheese? I love cheese!
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Femiju: Djathe? Me pelqen djathi!
04:10
RS: Yeah. So Ivan has this cheese sandwich,
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RS: Po. Pra Ivan merr kete sanduic me djathe,
04:12
and he says, "Yum yum yum yum yum!
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dhe thote, " Yum yum yum yum!
04:14
I really love cheese sandwiches."
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Une me te vertete pelqej sanduicin me djathe."
04:16
And Ivan puts his sandwich over here, on top of the pirate chest.
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Dhe Ivan e vendos sanduicin e tij ketu, mbi sendukun e piratit
04:20
And Ivan says, "You know what? I need a drink with my lunch."
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Dhe Ivan thote, " E dini cka? Dua nje pije me dreken time."
04:24
And so Ivan goes to get a drink.
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Keshtu Ivan shkon te marre nje pije.
04:27
And while Ivan is away
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Dhe ndersa Ivan nuk eshte aty
04:29
the wind comes,
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fryn ere,
04:32
and it blows the sandwich down onto the grass.
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dhe e hedh sanduicin poshte ne bar.
04:34
And now, here comes the other pirate.
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Dhe tani, ja ku vjen pirati tjeter.
04:38
This pirate is called Joshua.
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Pirati quhet Joshua.
04:41
And Joshua also really loves cheese sandwiches.
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Dhe Joshua gjithashtu pelqen sanduicet me djathe.
04:43
So Joshua has a cheese sandwich and he says,
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Pra, Joashua merr nje sanduic me djathe dhe thote,
04:45
"Yum yum yum yum yum! I love cheese sandwiches."
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" Yum yum yum yum! Me pelqen sanduici me djathe."
04:49
And he puts his cheese sandwich over here on top of the pirate chest.
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Dhe ai e vendos sanduicin e tij ketu, mbi sendukun e piratit.
04:52
Child: So, that one is his.
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Femiju: Pra, ky ketu eshte i tij.
04:54
RS: That one is Joshua's. That's right.
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RS: Ai atje eshte i Joshua. Ne rregull.
04:56
Child: And then his went on the ground.
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Femiju: Dhe pastaj sanduici i tij ra ne toke.
04:58
RS: That's exactly right.
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RS: Kjo eshte saktsisht e vertete.
05:00
Child: So he won't know which one is his.
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Femiju: Pra ai nuk do ta dije cili eshte i tij.
05:02
RS: Oh. So now Joshua goes off to get a drink.
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RS:Oh. Tani Joshua shkon per te marre nje pije.
05:05
Ivan comes back and he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Ivan kthehet dhe thote, " Une dua sanduicin tim."
05:09
So which one do you think Ivan is going to take?
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Pra cilen mendon se do ta marr Ivani ?
05:12
Child: I think he is going to take that one.
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Femiju: Une mendoj qe ai do ta marr ate.
05:14
RS: Yeah, you think he's going to take that one? All right. Let's see.
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RS: Po, ti mendon qe ai do ta marre ate? Ne rregull. Te shohim.
05:16
Oh yeah, you were right. He took that one.
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Oh po, ju kishit te drejte. Ai mori ate.
05:19
So that's a five-year-old who clearly understands
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Pra ky eshte nje pese vjecar i cili kupton qarte
05:21
that other people can have false beliefs
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se njerezit e tjere mund te kene besime te rreme
05:23
and what the consequences are for their actions.
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dhe cilat jane pasojat per veprimet e tyre.
05:25
Now I'm going to show you a three-year-old
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Tani do t'u tregoj nje tre vjecar
05:28
who got the same puzzle.
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qe ka te njejten enigme.
05:30
RS: And Ivan says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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RS: Kur Ivani thote, "Une dua sanduicin tim."
05:32
Which sandwich is he going to take?
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Cilin sanduic do te marre ai?
05:35
Do you think he's going to take that one? Let's see what happens.
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A mendon se ai do te marre ate atje? Te shohim cka do ndodhi.
05:37
Let's see what he does. Here comes Ivan.
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Te shohim c'do te beje ai. Ja ku po vjen Ivan.
05:39
And he says, "I want my cheese sandwich."
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Dhe ai thote, " Une dua sanducin tim."
05:42
And he takes this one.
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Dhe ai merr kete ketu.
05:44
Uh-oh. Why did he take that one?
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Uh-oh. Pse ai mori ate?
05:47
Child: His was on the grass.
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Femiju: I atij ishte te bari.
05:51
So the three-year-old does two things differently.
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Pra tre vejcari ben dy gjera ne menyre te ndryshme.
05:54
First, he predicts Ivan will take the sandwich
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Fillimisht, ai parashikon qe Ivan do te marre sanduicin
05:57
that's really his.
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qe ne te vertete eshte i tij.
05:59
And second, when he sees Ivan taking the sandwich where he left his,
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Dhe e dyta, kur sheh Ivanin duke e marre sanduicin atje ku ai e pati lene,
06:03
where we would say he's taking that one because he thinks it's his,
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kur ne do te themi ai po merr ate sepse ai mendon se eshte i tij,
06:06
the three-year-old comes up with another explanation:
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tre vjecari vjen me nje sqarim tjeter:
06:09
He's not taking his own sandwich because he doesn't want it,
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Ai nuk po merr sanduicin e vet sepse ai nuk e do me ate,
06:11
because now it's dirty, on the ground.
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sepse tani eshte i piste, ra ne toke.
06:13
So that's why he's taking the other sandwich.
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Pra per kete arsye ai eshte duke e marre sanduicin tjeter.
06:15
Now of course, development doesn't end at five.
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Tani natyrisht, zhvillimi nuk ndalet ne moshen pese vjec.
06:19
And we can see the continuation of this process
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Dhe ne mund ta shohim vazhdimesine e ketij procesi
06:21
of learning to think about other people's thoughts
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te mesuarit si te mendojme rreth mendimeve te njerezve te tjere
06:23
by upping the ante
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duke e rritur lojen
06:25
and asking children now, not for an action prediction,
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dhe duke i pyetur nxenesit, jo per parashikim te veprimit,
06:28
but for a moral judgment.
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por per nje gjykim moral.
06:30
So first I'm going to show you the three-year-old again.
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Pra, se pari do te ju tregoj tre vjecarin perseri.
06:32
RS.: So is Ivan being mean and naughty for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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RS: Mos eshte i keq Ivan qe po merr sanduicin e Joshua?
06:35
Child: Yeah.
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Femiju: Po.
06:36
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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RS: A duhet t'i heqim veshin Ivanit qe i mori sanduicin Joshua-s?
06:39
Child: Yeah.
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Femiju: Po.
06:41
So it's maybe not surprising he thinks it was mean of Ivan
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R.S.: Pra ndoshta nuk eshte surprize qe ai mendon se Ivani ishte i lig
06:43
to take Joshua's sandwich,
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qe mori sanduicin e Joshua-s,
06:45
since he thinks Ivan only took Joshua's sandwich
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ai, bile mendon se Ivani mori sanduicin e Joshua-s
06:47
to avoid having to eat his own dirty sandwich.
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per te shmangur ngrenjen e sanduicit te piset.
06:50
But now I'm going to show you the five-year-old.
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Tani do t'ju tregoj pese vjecarin.
06:52
Remember the five-year-old completely understood
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Mbani mend pese vjecari kuptoi teresisht
06:54
why Ivan took Joshua's sandwich.
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pse Ivan mori sanduicin e Joshua-s.
06:56
RS: Was Ivan being mean and naughty
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Video RS: A ishte Ivani i keq
06:58
for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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qe mori sanduicin e Joshua-s?
07:00
Child: Um, yeah.
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Femiju: Um, po.
07:02
And so, it is not until age seven
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R.S. Dhe keshtu, vetem ne moshen shtate vjecare
07:04
that we get what looks more like an adult response.
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ne marrim cka duket me shume si pergjigje e rritur.
07:07
RS: Should Ivan get in trouble for taking Joshua's sandwich?
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RS: A duhet te ndeshkohet Ivani qe ka marr sanduicin e Joshua-s?
07:10
Child: No, because the wind should get in trouble.
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Femiju: Jo, era duhet te ndeshkohet.
07:12
He says the wind should get in trouble
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R.S. Ai thote era duhet te ndeshkohet
07:15
for switching the sandwiches.
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per nderrimin e sanduiceve.
07:17
(Laughter)
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(Qeshje)
07:19
And now what we've started to do in my lab
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Dhe tani ajo qe kemi filluar te bejme ne laboratorin tim
07:21
is to put children into the brain scanner
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eshte te vendosim femijet ne skanerin e trurit
07:23
and ask what's going on in their brain
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dhe te shohim ata qe po ndodh ne trurin e tyre
07:26
as they develop this ability to think about other people's thoughts.
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pasi e zhvillojne kete aftesi per te menduar per mendimet e njerezve tjere.
07:29
So the first thing is that in children we see this same brain region, the Right TPJ,
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Pra gjeja e pare eshte se te femija shohim te aktivizohet e njejta zone e trurit, TPJ e djathte,
07:33
being used while children are thinking about other people.
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ndersa fermijet jane duke menduar per njerezit e tjere.
07:36
But it's not quite like the adult brain.
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Por nuk eshte njesoj si te truri i nje te rrituri.
07:38
So whereas in the adults, as I told you,
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Ndersa në te rriturit, sikuse edhe ju thashe,
07:40
this brain region is almost completely specialized --
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kjo zone e trurit eshte pothuajse teresisht e specializuar--
07:43
it does almost nothing else except for thinking about other people's thoughts --
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ajo pothujase s'ben asgje tjeter vec te menduarit rreth mendimeve te njerezve te tjere--
07:46
in children it's much less so,
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tek femijet eshte pak me pak,
07:48
when they are age five to eight,
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kur ata jane ne moshe pese deri tete,
07:50
the age range of the children I just showed you.
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renditja e moshes se femijeve qe posa jua tregova.
07:52
And actually if we even look at eight to 11-year-olds,
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Dhe faktikisht nese ne shikojme tek mosha tete deri njembedhjete,
07:55
getting into early adolescence,
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duke arritur ne adoleshencen e hershme,
07:57
they still don't have quite an adult-like brain region.
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ata akoma nuk kane zonen adulte te trurit.
08:00
And so, what we can see is that over the course of childhood
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Dhe keshtu, ajo cfare ne mund te shohim eshte se gjate femijrise
08:03
and even into adolescence,
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dhe madje ne adoloshence,
08:05
both the cognitive system,
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te dyja, edhe sistemi kognitiv,
08:07
our mind's ability to think about other minds,
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aftesia e mendjes tone per te menduar per mendje tjera,
08:09
and the brain system that supports it
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edhe sistemi i trurit qe e mbeshtet ate
08:11
are continuing, slowly, to develop.
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jane duke vazhduar, ngadalshem, te zhvillohen.
08:14
But of course, as you're probably aware,
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Por sigurisht, pasiqe ju jeni te vetdijshem,
08:16
even in adulthood,
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madje edhe ne moshen e madhore
08:18
people differ from one another in how good they are
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njerezit dallojne njeri me tjetrin se sa te mire jane ata
08:20
at thinking of other minds, how often they do it
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per mendimin e mendjeve te tjera, sa shpesh e bejne ata kete
08:22
and how accurately.
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dhe sa saktesisht.
08:24
And so what we wanted to know was, could differences among adults
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Ne deshem te dime, nese diferenca ne mes te rritureve
08:27
in how they think about other people's thoughts
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ne menyre se si ata mendojne per mendimet e te tjereve
08:29
be explained in terms of differences in this brain region?
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mund te shpjegohet ne terma te diferences ne kete zone te trurit?
08:32
So, the first thing that we did is we gave adults a version
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Pra, gjeja e pare qe beme eshte qe u dhame te rritureve nje version
08:35
of the pirate problem that we gave to the kids.
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te problemit te pirateve te cilin ua dhame femijeve.
08:37
And I'm going to give that to you now.
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Dhe une do t'ua tregoj tani.
08:39
So Grace and her friend are on a tour of a chemical factory,
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Grace dhe shoqja e saj po vizitojne nje fabrike te produkteve kimike,
08:42
and they take a break for coffee.
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dhe po bejne pushim per kafe.
08:44
And Grace's friend asks for some sugar in her coffee.
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Shoqja e Grace kerkon ca sheqer ne kafen e saj.
08:47
Grace goes to make the coffee
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Grace shkon ta beje kafen
08:50
and finds by the coffee a pot
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dhe afer kafes gjen nje kuti
08:52
containing a white powder, which is sugar.
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qe permban pluhur te bardhe, i cili eshte sheqer.
08:55
But the powder is labeled "Deadly Poison,"
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Por etiketa thote " Helm Vdekjeprures".
08:58
so Grace thinks that the powder is a deadly poison.
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Pra Grace mendon se pluhuri eshte helm vdekjeprures.
09:01
And she puts it in her friend's coffee.
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Dhe e hedh ate ne kafen e shoqes se saj.
09:03
And her friend drinks the coffee, and is fine.
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Dhe shoqja e saj e pi kafen, dhe nuk ndodh asgje.
09:06
How many people think it was morally permissible
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Sa njerez mendojne qe moralisht ishte e lejushme
09:08
for Grace to put the powder in the coffee?
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per Grace te hedhe pluhurin ne kafe?
09:12
Okay. Good. (Laughter)
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Ne rregull. Mire. ( qeshje)
09:15
So we ask people, how much should Grace be blamed
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Pra ne pyetem njerez, nese duhet te fajesohet Grace
09:18
in this case, which we call a failed attempt to harm?
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ne kete rast, te cilin e quajme nje tentim i deshtuar per te bere dem?
09:20
And we can compare that to another case,
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Dhe mund ta krahasojme ate me rastin tjeter,
09:22
where everything in the real world is the same.
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ku cdo gje ne boten reale eshte e njejte.
09:24
The powder is still sugar, but what's different is what Grace thinks.
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Pluhuri ende eshte sheqer, ndryshon vetem ajo qe mendon Grace.
09:27
Now she thinks the powder is sugar.
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Tani ajo mendon qe pluhuri eshte sheqer.
09:30
And perhaps unsurprisingly, if Grace thinks the powder is sugar
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Dhe ndoshta befasisht, nese Grace mendon se pluhuri eshte sheqer
09:33
and puts it in her friend's coffee,
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dhe e vendos ate ne kafen e shoqes,
09:35
people say she deserves no blame at all.
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njerezit thone ajo nuk meriton te fajesohet fare.
09:37
Whereas if she thinks the powder was poison, even though it's really sugar,
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Ndersa, kur ajo mendon se pluhuri ishte helm, edhe pse ne te vertete eshte sheqer,
09:41
now people say she deserves a lot of blame,
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njerezit thone qe ajo meriton te fajesohet.
09:44
even though what happened in the real world was exactly the same.
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Edhe pse cka ndodhi ne boten reale ishte pikerisht e njejte.
09:47
And in fact, they say she deserves more blame
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Dhe ne fakt, ata thone ajo ka me shume faj
09:49
in this case, the failed attempt to harm,
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ne kete rast, tentimi i deshtuar per te bere dem,
09:51
than in another case,
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sesa ne nje rast tjeter,
09:53
which we call an accident.
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te cilin ne e quajme aksident.
09:55
Where Grace thought the powder was sugar,
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Ku Grace mendoi qe pluhuri ishte sheqer,
09:57
because it was labeled "sugar" and by the coffee machine,
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sepse keshtu thoshte etiketa prane makines se kafes,
09:59
but actually the powder was poison.
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por faktikisht pluhuri ishte helm.
10:01
So even though when the powder was poison,
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Keshtu edhe pse kur pluhuri ishte helm,
10:04
the friend drank the coffee and died,
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dhe shoqja qe piu kafen, vdiq,
10:07
people say Grace deserves less blame in that case,
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njerezit mendojne qe Grace meriton me pak faj
10:10
when she innocently thought it was sugar,
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kur ajo pafajesisht mendoi qe ishte sheqer,
10:12
than in the other case, where she thought it was poison
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sesa ne rastin tjeter, ku ajo mendoi qe ishte helm
10:14
and no harm occurred.
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dhe nuk u be asnje dem.
10:17
People, though, disagree a little bit
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Njerezit ketu, duket sikur nuk bien dakort
10:19
about exactly how much blame Grace should get
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me graden e fajit qe duhet te bjere mbi Grace
10:21
in the accident case.
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ne rastin e aksidentit.
10:23
Some people think she should deserve more blame,
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Disa njerez mendojne ajo duhet te meritoje me shume faj,
10:25
and other people less.
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disa te tjere me pak.
10:27
And what I'm going to show you is what happened when we look inside
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Do t'u tregoj tani se cka ndodhi kur ne shikuam brenda
10:29
the brains of people while they're making that judgment.
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trurit te njerezve ndersa ata jane duke e bere ate gjykim.
10:31
So what I'm showing you, from left to right,
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Pra cka jam duke ju treguar, nga e majta ne te djathte,
10:33
is how much activity there was in this brain region,
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eshte se sa shume aktivitet kishte ne kete zone te trurit,
10:36
and from top to bottom, how much blame
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dhe nga lart poshte, shkalla e fajit
10:38
people said that Grace deserved.
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qe meriton Grace sipas ketyre njerezve.
10:40
And what you can see is, on the left
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Dhe ajo qe sheh eshte, ne te majte
10:42
when there was very little activity in this brain region,
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ku kishte pak aktivitet ne kete zone te trurit,
10:44
people paid little attention to her innocent belief
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njerezit i kushtuan pak vemendje besimit ne pafajsine e saj
10:47
and said she deserved a lot of blame for the accident.
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dhe thane ajo meriton shume faj per aksidentin.
10:50
Whereas on the right, where there was a lot of activity,
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Ndersa ne te djathtin, ku kishte shume aktivitet,
10:52
people paid a lot more attention to her innocent belief,
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njerezit i kushtuan me shume vemendje besimit ne pafajsine e saj,
10:55
and said she deserved a lot less blame
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dhe thane qe ajo meritonte shume me pak faj
10:57
for causing the accident.
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per shkaktimin e aksidentit.
10:59
So that's good, but of course
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Kjo eshte mire, por sigurisht
11:01
what we'd rather is have a way to interfere
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do te donim te kishim nje menyre per te nderhyre
11:03
with function in this brain region,
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ne funksioninim e kesaj zone te trurit,
11:05
and see if we could change people's moral judgment.
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dhe te shihnim nese mund te nderrojme gjykimin moral te njerezve.
11:08
And we do have such a tool.
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Dhe ne kemi nje mjet te tille.
11:10
It's called Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation,
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Quhet Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation,
11:12
or TMS.
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ose TMS.
11:14
This is a tool that lets us pass a magnetic pulse
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Ky eshte nje mjet qe na lejon te kalojme nje impuls magnetik
11:16
through somebody's skull, into a small region of their brain,
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nepermjet kafkes, ne nje zone te vogel te trurit,
11:20
and temporarily disorganize the function of the neurons in that region.
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dhe ç'organizon perkohesisht funksionin e neuroneve ne ate zone.
11:24
So I'm going to show you a demo of this.
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Do t'ju tregoj nje demo te kesaj.
11:26
First, I'm going to show you that this is a magnetic pulse.
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Per t'ju treguar se kjo eshte nje impuls magnetik,
11:29
I'm going to show you what happens when you put a quarter on the machine.
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do t'ju tregoj cfare ndodh kur vendosni nje monedhe ne makine.
11:32
When you hear clicks, we're turning the machine on.
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Kur degjoni kercitje, makina eshte e ndezur.
11:42
So now I'm going to apply that same pulse to my brain,
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Tani do te aplikoj te njejtin impuls ne trurin tim,
11:45
to the part of my brain that controls my hand.
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ne pjesen e trurit qe kontrollon doren.
11:47
So there is no physical force, just a magnetic pulse.
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Pra nuk ka force fizike, vetem nje impuls magnetik.
11:54
Woman (Video): Ready, Rebecca? RS: Yes.
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Gruaja( Video): Gati, Rebecca? RS: Po.
11:57
Okay, so it causes a small involuntary contraction in my hand
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Ne rregull, shkakton nje shtrengim te vogel te pavullnetshem te dores
12:00
by putting a magnetic pulse in my brain.
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me nje impuls magnetik ne trurin tim.
12:03
And we can use that same pulse,
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Dhe ne mund ta perdorim te njejtin impuls,
12:05
now applied to the RTPJ,
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tani e aplikova ne RTPJ,
12:07
to ask if we can change people's moral judgments.
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per te pare nese mund te ndryshojme gjykimin moral te njerezve.
12:10
So these are the judgments I showed you before, people's normal moral judgments.
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Pra keto jane gjykimet qe u'a tregova me parë, gjykimet morale normale te njerezve.
12:12
And then we can apply TMS to the RTPJ
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Tani te aplikojme TMS ne RTPJ
12:15
and ask how people's judgments change.
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dhe te shohim si mund te ndryshojne gjykimet e njerezve.
12:17
And the first thing is, people can still do this task overall.
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Dhe gjeja e pare eshte se njerezit akoma mund te bejne kete detyre ne pergjithesi.
12:21
So their judgments of the case when everything was fine
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Pra gjykimet e tyre per rastin kur cdo gje ishte ne rregull
12:23
remain the same. They say she deserves no blame.
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mbeten te njejta. Ata thone ajo nuk meriton faj.
12:26
But in the case of a failed attempt to harm,
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Por ne rastin e tentimit te deshtuar te demit,
12:30
where Grace thought that it was poison, although it was really sugar,
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ku Grace mendoi qe ishte helm, megjithese ishte me te vertete sheqer,
12:33
people now say it was more okay, she deserves less blame
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njerezit thone qe ajo meriton me pak faj
12:36
for putting the powder in the coffee.
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per vendosjen e pluhurit ne kafe.
12:39
And in the case of the accident, where she thought that it was sugar,
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Dhe ne rastin e aksidentit, ku ajo mendoi qe ishte sheqer,
12:41
but it was really poison and so she caused a death,
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por ne te vertete ishte helm dhe ajo shkatoi vdekje,
12:44
people say that it was less okay, she deserves more blame.
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njerezit thone se s'eshte ne rregull, ajo meriton me shume faj.
12:50
So what I've told you today is that
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Pra cka ju kam treguar sot eshte se
12:52
people come, actually, especially well equipped
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njerezit jane, vecanerisht te pajisur mire
12:56
to think about other people's thoughts.
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per te menduar rreth mendimeve te njerezve tjere.
12:58
We have a special brain system
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Ne kemi nje sistem te vecante te trurit
13:00
that lets us think about what other people are thinking.
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qe na lejon te mendojme cka mendojne njerezit e tjere.
13:03
This system takes a long time to develop,
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Ky sistem merr kohe te gjate te zhvillohet
13:05
slowly throughout the course of childhood and into early adolescence.
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ngadale pergjate femijerise dhe deri ne adoleshence te hershme.
13:08
And even in adulthood, differences in this brain region
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Dhe madje ne moshen madhore, ndryshime ne kete pjese te trurit
13:11
can explain differences among adults
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mund te shpjegojne ndryshimet ne menyren qe te rriturit
13:13
in how we think about and judge other people.
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mendojne dhe gjykojne njerezit e tjere.
13:16
But I want to give the last word back to the novelists,
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Por une dua t'jap fjalen e fundit novelisteve,
13:19
and to Philip Roth, who ended by saying,
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dhe Philip Roth, i cili perfundoi duke thene,
13:22
"The fact remains that getting people right
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" Fakti mbetet se te kuptosh drejt njerezit
13:24
is not what living is all about anyway.
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nuk eshte kusht i domosdoshem ne jete".
13:26
It's getting them wrong that is living.
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T'i kuptosh duke bere gabim eshte jetesa.
13:28
Getting them wrong and wrong and wrong,
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Duke i kuptuar ata gabim dhe gabim dhe gabim,
13:31
and then on careful reconsideration,
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dhe pastaj nje rishkim i kujdesshem,
13:33
getting them wrong again."
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duke i kuptuar gabim ata perseri."
13:35
Thank you.
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Faleminderit,
13:37
(Applause)
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(Duartroktije)
13:47
Chris Anderson: So, I have a question. When you start talking about using
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Chris Anderson : Kam nje pyetje. Kur ju filloni te flisni per perdorimin
13:49
magnetic pulses to change people's moral judgments,
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e impulsit magnetik per te ndryshuar gjykimin moral te njerezve,
13:52
that sounds alarming.
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kjo duket alarmante.
13:55
(Laughter)
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(qeshje)
13:56
Please tell me that you're not taking phone calls from the Pentagon, say.
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Ju lutem tregoni qe nuk po ju telefonojne, le te themi, nga Pentagoni.
14:00
RS: I'm not.
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RS: Jo.
14:02
I mean, they're calling, but I'm not taking the call.
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E kam fjalen, ata po telefonojne, por une nuk po pergjigjem.
14:05
(Laughter)
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(qeshje)
14:06
CA: They really are calling?
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CA: Me te vertete po telefonojne?
14:08
So then seriously,
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Pra seriozisht,
14:11
you must lie awake at night sometimes
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ju duhet te qendroni zgjuar naten ndonjehere
14:14
wondering where this work leads.
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duke menduar ku na con kjo pune.
14:16
I mean, you're clearly an incredible human being,
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Mendoj, ju ne menyre te qarte jeni e jashtezakonshme,
14:18
but someone could take this knowledge
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por dikush mund ta marre kete njohuri
14:21
and in some future
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dhe ne te ardhmen
14:23
not-torture chamber,
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jo ne dhomen e tortures,
14:25
do acts that people here might be worried about.
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por te beje veprime ne menyra qe njerezit ketu mund te shqetsoheshin.
14:28
RS: Yeah, we worry about this.
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RS: Po, ne shqetsohemi per kete.
14:30
So, there's a couple of things to say about TMS.
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Pra, jane disa gjera qe duhen te dime per TMS.
14:33
One is that you can't be TMSed without knowing it.
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Nje eshte qe ju nuk mund tju aplikojne TMS pa e kuptuar ate.
14:35
So it's not a surreptitious technology.
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Pra nuk behet fjale per nje teknologji sekrete.
14:38
It's quite hard, actually, to get those very small changes.
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Eshte krejtsisht e veshtire, faktisht, te behen keto ndryshime te vogla.
14:41
The changes I showed you are impressive to me
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Ndryshimet qe u'a tregova jane mbreselense per mua
14:44
because of what they tell us about the function of the brain,
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per ate qe na tregojne per funksionin e trurit.
14:46
but they're small on the scale
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Por ato jane te vogla ne shkallen
14:48
of the moral judgments that we actually make.
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e gjykimeve morale qe ne faktikisht kemi bere.
14:50
And what we changed was not people's
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Dhe cka ndryshuam nuk ishte gjykimi moral i njerzeve
14:52
moral judgments when they're deciding what to do,
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kur ata jane te vendosur cfare te bejne,
14:55
when they're making action choices.
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kur ata marrin zgjedhje te veprimeve.
14:57
We changed their ability to judge other people's actions.
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Ne ndryshuam aftesine e tyre per te gjykuar veprimet e njerzve te tjere.
15:00
And so, I think of what I'm doing not so much as
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Dhe keshtu, mendoj se per ate cka po bej jo edhe aq shume
15:02
studying the defendant in a criminal trial,
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sa te studjoj te pandehurit ne nje gjyq penal,
15:04
but studying the jury.
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por duke studjuar jurine.
15:06
CA: Is your work going to lead to any recommendations
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CA: A do te ju drejtoje puna juaj ne ndonje rekomandim
15:09
in education, to perhaps bring up
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ne edukim, qe ndoshta te sjellim
15:12
a generation of kids able to make fairer moral judgments?
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nje gjenerate te femijeve qe jane ne gjendje te bejne gjykime morale me te drejta?
15:17
RS: That's one of the idealistic hopes.
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RS: Kjo eshte njera nder shpresat idealistike.
15:20
The whole research program here of studying
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I tere programi hulutues i studimiit
15:24
the distinctive parts of the human brain is brand new.
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te pjeseve te vecanta te trurit njerezor eshte i ri.
15:28
Until recently, what we knew about the brain
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Deri ne kohet e fundit, ajo qe dinim per trurin
15:30
were the things that any other animal's brain could do too,
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ishin gjera qe secili tru i kafshes mund te beje gjithashtu,
15:33
so we could study it in animal models.
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E mund ta studionim ne modelet e kafsheve.
15:35
We knew how brains see, and how they control the body
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Kemi kuptuar se si truri arrin te shohe, per te kontrolluar trupin,
15:37
and how they hear and sense.
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dhe si degjon e ndjen.
15:39
And the whole project of understanding
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Dhe i tere projekti i te kuptuarit
15:42
how brains do the uniquely human things --
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si truri ben gjera unike
15:44
learn language and abstract concepts,
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meson gjuhe dhe koncepte abstrakte,
15:47
and thinking about other people's thoughts -- that's brand new.
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dhe mendon per mendimet e njerezve te tjere -- kjo eshte e re.
15:49
And we don't know yet what the implications will be
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Dhe akoma nuk e dime cfare implikime do te kete
15:51
of understanding it.
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per t'a kuptuar ate.
15:53
CA: So I've got one last question. There is this thing called
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C.A.: Nje pyetje e fundit. Eshte nje gje e quajtur
15:55
the hard problem of consciousness,
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problemi i veshtire i ndergjegjes,
15:57
that puzzles a lot of people.
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qe le ne medyshje shume njerez.
15:59
The notion that you can understand
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Nocionin qe ju mund ta kuptoni
16:02
why a brain works, perhaps.
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pse truri funksion, ndoshta,
16:04
But why does anyone have to feel anything?
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Por pse duhet te kuptoje dicka?
16:07
Why does it seem to require these beings who sense things
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Pse per te funksionuar kemi nevoje
16:10
for us to operate?
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te kuptojme gjerat qe na rrethojne?
16:12
You're a brilliant young neuroscientist.
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Ju jeni nje neuroscientist i ri e briliant,
16:15
I mean, what chances do you think there are
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sipas jush, cfare shance ka
16:17
that at some time in your career,
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qe heret a vone ne karieren tuaj,
16:19
someone, you or someone else,
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dikush, ju ose dikush tjter
16:21
is going to come up with some paradigm shift
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do te vije me disa zhvendosje paradigme
16:23
in understanding what seems an impossible problem?
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ne kuptushmerine cka duket nje problem i pa mundshem?
16:27
RS: I hope they do. And I think they probably won't.
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RS: Shpresoj qe ata do t'a bejne. Por mendoj qe nuk do ta bejne.
16:31
CA: Why?
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CA: Pse?
16:34
RS: It's not called the hard problem of consciousness for nothing.
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RS: Nuk eshte quajtur kot problemi i veshtire i ndergjegjes.
16:37
(Laughter)
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(Qeshje)
16:39
CA: That's a great answer. Rebecca Saxe, thank you very much. That was fantastic.
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CA: Kjo eshte nje pergjigje e shkelqyer. Rebecca Saxe, faleminderit shume. Kjo ishte fantastike.
16:42
(Applause)
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(Duartrokitje)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Rebecca Saxe - Cognitive neuroscientistRebecca Saxe studies how we think about other people's thoughts. At the Saxelab at MIT, she uses fMRI to identify what happens in our brains when we consider the motives, passions and beliefs of others.
Why you should listen
While still a graduate student, Rebecca Saxe made a breakthrough discovery: There's a specific region in our brain that becomes active when we contemplate the workings of other minds. Now, at MIT's Saxelab, she and her team have been further exploring her grad-school finding, exploring how it may help us understand conditions such as autism.
As Saxe delves into the complexities of social cognition, this young scientist is working toward revealing the enigma of human minds interacting.
Rebecca Saxe | Speaker | TED.com