TED2003
Dan Dennett: The illusion of consciousness
Den Denet o svesnosti
Filmed:
Readability: 3.2
3,868,782 views
Filozof Den Denet na neodoljiv način otkriva kako ne samo da ne razumemo sopstvenu svest, već nas većinu vremena naš mozak aktivno zavarava.
Dan Dennett - Philosopher, cognitive scientist
Dan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes. Full bio
Dan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:26
So I'm going to speak about a problem that I have
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Govoriću o jednom problemu koji imam
00:29
and that's that I'm a philosopher.
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a to je da sam ja filozof.
00:32
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
00:34
When I go to a party and people ask me what do I do
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Kada odem na zabavu i kada me pitaju čime se bavim
00:37
and I say, "I'm a professor," their eyes glaze over.
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i ja im odgovorim "Ja sam profesor", oni prevrnu očima.
00:42
When I go to an academic cocktail party
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Kada odem na akademsku zabavu
00:44
and there are all the professors around, they ask me what field I'm in
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gde su svuda samo profesori, i kada me pitaju kojom se oblašću bavim
00:48
and I say, "philosophy" -- their eyes glaze over.
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i ja kažem filozofijom - oni prevrnu očima.
00:51
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
00:53
When I go to a philosopher's party
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Kada odem na zabavu filozofa
00:56
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
00:59
and they ask me what I work on and I say, "consciousness,"
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i kada me pitaju na kojoj temi radim i ja kažem na svesnosti,
01:03
their eyes don't glaze over -- their lips curl into a snarl.
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oni ne prevrnu očima -- oni zareže na mene.
01:08
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
01:09
And I get hoots of derision and cackles and growls
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I dobijem brdo podsmeha i kokodakanja i lajanja
01:15
because they think, "That's impossible! You can't explain consciousness."
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zato što pomisle: "To je nemoguće! Ne možeš objasniti svest."
01:20
The very chutzpah of somebody thinking
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Sama pomisao da bi neko mogao misliti
01:22
that you could explain consciousness is just out of the question.
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da je moguće objasniti svest ne dolazi u obzir.
01:26
My late, lamented friend Bob Nozick, a fine philosopher,
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Moj nekadašnji prijatelj Bob Nozik, odličan filozof,
01:30
in one of his books, "Philosophical Explanations,"
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u jednoj od svojih knjiga, "Filozoska Objašnjenja",
01:34
is commenting on the ethos of philosophy --
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komentariše sam karakter filozofije --
01:39
the way philosophers go about their business.
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način na koji filozofi rade svoj posao.
01:41
And he says, you know, "Philosophers love rational argument."
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I on tu kaže, znate, "Filozofi vole racionalne argumente".
01:45
And he says, "It seems as if the ideal argument
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I kaže, "Čini se da je idealan argument
01:47
for most philosophers is you give your audience the premises
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za većinu filozofa kada date svojoj publici premise
01:53
and then you give them the inferences and the conclusion,
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i potom ih uputite u proces zaključivanja i date im i sam zaključak,
01:58
and if they don't accept the conclusion, they die.
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i ukoliko ne prihvate taj zaključak, oni umiru.
02:02
Their heads explode." The idea is to have an argument
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Njihove glave ekslplodiraju. "Ideja je da imate argument
02:05
that is so powerful that it knocks out your opponents.
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koji je toliko moćan da obara vaše suparnike.
02:09
But in fact that doesn't change people's minds at all.
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Ali u suštini to uopšte ne menja nečije mišljenje.
02:12
It's very hard to change people's minds
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Jako je teško da promenite nečije mišljenje
02:13
about something like consciousness,
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pogotovo oko nečega kao što je svest,
02:15
and I finally figured out the reason for that.
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i najzad sam došao do objašnjenja zašto je to tako.
02:20
The reason for that is that everybody's an expert on consciousness.
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Razlog tome jeste da su svi eksperti na temu svesnosti.
02:24
We heard the other day that everybody's got a strong opinion about video games.
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Pre neki dan smo čuli da svako ima čvrsto mišljenje o video igricama.
02:28
They all have an idea for a video game, even if they're not experts.
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Svi imaju ideju o video igricama, čak i ukoliko nisu eksperti.
02:31
But they don't consider themselves experts on video games;
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Ali oni ne smatraju sebe ekspertima za video igrice,
02:34
they've just got strong opinions.
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oni samo imaju čvrsta mišljenja.
02:35
I'm sure that people here who work on, say, climate change
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Siguran sam da ljudi koji rade na, recimo, klimatskim promenama
02:40
and global warming, or on the future of the Internet,
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i globalnom zagrevanju, ili o budućnosti interneta,
02:45
encounter people who have very strong opinions
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srećo ljude koji imaju jako čvrsta mišljenja
02:47
about what's going to happen next.
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o tome šta će se sledeće desiti.
02:50
But they probably don't think of these opinions as expertise.
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Ali oni sigurno ne misle da ih ta čvrsta mišljenja čine ekspertima.
02:54
They're just strongly held opinions.
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Oni samo imaju čvrsta mišljenja.
02:56
But with regard to consciousness, people seem to think,
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Ali kada se radi o svesnosti, ljudi izgleda da misle,
03:00
each of us seems to think, "I am an expert.
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svaki od nas misli, "Ja sam ekspert.
03:03
Simply by being conscious, I know all about this."
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Jednostavno zbog toga što sam svestan, znam sve o tome."
03:06
And so, you tell them your theory and they say,
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I tako, kada im iznesete svoju teoriju oni odgovore,
03:08
"No, no, that's not the way consciousness is!
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"Ne, ne, to nije svesnost!
03:09
No, you've got it all wrong."
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Ne, pogrešno ste shvatili".
03:11
And they say this with an amazing confidence.
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I oni to kažu sa neverovatnim samopouzdanjem.
03:15
And so what I'm going to try to do today
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I ono što ću ja pokušati da uradim danas
03:17
is to shake your confidence. Because I know the feeling --
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jeste da uzdrmam vaše samopouzdanje. Zato što mi je poznato to osećanje --
03:20
I can feel it myself.
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imam ga i ja.
03:22
I want to shake your confidence that you know your own innermost minds --
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Želim da uzdrmam vašu sigurnost u ono što se nalazi duboko u vašim umovima --
03:28
that you are, yourselves, authoritative about your own consciousness.
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a to je da ste vi sami autoriteti svoje svesnosti.
03:33
That's the order of the day here.
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To je glavni današnji zadatak ovde.
03:36
Now, this nice picture shows a thought-balloon, a thought-bubble.
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Sada, ova fina slika pokazuje jedan misaoni balončić. Misaoni mehurić.
03:39
I think everybody understands what that means.
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Mislim da svi razumeju šta to znači.
03:41
That's supposed to exhibit the stream of consciousness.
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Ona bi trebalo da prikaže jedan misaoni tok.
03:44
This is my favorite picture of consciousness that's ever been done.
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Ovo je moja omiljena slika svesnosti koja je ikada urađena.
03:46
It's a Saul Steinberg of course -- it was a New Yorker cover.
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To je Sol Stajnberg naravno -- to je bilo na naslovnici Njujorkera.
03:49
And this fellow here is looking at the painting by Braque.
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I ovaj lik ovde posmatra sliku Braha.
03:54
That reminds him of the word baroque, barrack, bark, poodle,
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I to ga asocira na reč barok, baraka, kora, pudla,
03:58
Suzanne R. -- he's off to the races.
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Suzana R. -- i on je isključen sa trke.
04:00
There's a wonderful stream of consciousness here
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Ovo je fenomenalan prikaz toka svesti
04:04
and if you follow it along, you learn a lot about this man.
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i ukoliko ga ispratite, naučićete mnogo o ovom čoveku.
04:08
What I particularly like about this picture, too,
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Ono što ja naročito volim kod ove slike,
04:10
is that Steinberg has rendered the guy
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jeste to što je Stajnberg odradio ovog čoveka
04:12
in this sort of pointillist style.
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nekom vrstom pointilističkog stila.
04:15
Which reminds us, as Rod Brooks was saying yesterday:
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Što nas podseća, kako je Rod Bruks rekao juče:
04:18
what we are, what each of us is -- what you are, what I am --
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ono šta smo mi, šta je svako od nas -- šta si ti, šta sam ja --
04:22
is approximately 100 trillion little cellular robots.
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je približno oko 100 triliona malih ćelija-robota.
04:28
That's what we're made of.
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Od toga smo sačinjeni.
04:30
No other ingredients at all. We're just made of cells, about 100 trillion of them.
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Bez drugih dodataka. Napravljeni smo isključivo od ćelija, oko 100 triliona njih.
04:34
Not a single one of those cells is conscious;
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Niti jedna jedina od njih nije svesna,
04:36
not a single one of those cells knows who you are, or cares.
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ni jedna jedina od njih nema pojma o tome ko si ti, niti je briga.
04:41
Somehow, we have to explain
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Nekako, mi moramo da objasnimo
04:43
how when you put together teams, armies, battalions
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kako to da kada spojimo timove, armije, bataljone
04:47
of hundreds of millions of little robotic unconscious cells --
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hiljada miliona malih nesvesnih ćelija-robota --
04:51
not so different really from a bacterium, each one of them --
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ne toliko različitih od bakterije, svaka od njih --
04:55
the result is this. I mean, just look at it.
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rezultat je ovo. Mislim, pa pogledajte samo.
04:59
The content -- there's color, there's ideas, there's memories,
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Sadržaj -- tu su boje, tu su ideje, tu su sećanja,
05:03
there's history. And somehow all that content of consciousness
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tu je istorija. I nekako je ceo taj sadržaj svesnosti
05:07
is accomplished by the busy activity of those hoards of neurons.
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postignut aktivnošću te horde neurona.
05:12
How is that possible? Many people just think it isn't possible at all.
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Kako je to moguće? Mnogi ljudi misle da to uopšte i nije moguće.
05:16
They think, "No, there can't be any
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Oni misle, "Ne, ne može postojati
05:18
sort of naturalistic explanation of consciousness."
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nikakva vrsta naturalističkog objašnjenja svesnosti."
05:22
This is a lovely book by a friend of mine named Lee Siegel,
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Ovo je divna knjiga mog prijatelja Li Sigela,
05:25
who's a professor of religion, actually, at the University of Hawaii,
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profesora religije na Univeerzitetu na Havajima,
05:28
and he's an expert magician, and an expert
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i on je ekspert na polju magije, i ekspert
05:30
on the street magic of India, which is what this book is about,
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ulične magije Indije, o čemu zapravo govori i knjiga,
05:34
"Net of Magic."
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"Mreža magije".
05:36
And there's a passage in it which I would love to share with you.
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I tu je i jedan deo koji bih želeo da podelim sa vama.
05:39
It speaks so eloquently to the problem.
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Tako lepo govori o ovom problemu.
05:45
"'I'm writing a book on magic,' I explain, and I'm asked, 'Real magic?'
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"'Pišem knjigu o magiji,' objasnih, i postavljeno mi je pitanje, 'Pravoj magiji?'
05:50
By 'real magic,' people mean miracles,
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Pod pravom magijom, ljudi podrazumevaju čuda,
05:52
thaumaturgical acts, and supernatural powers.
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magična dela, natprirodne moći.
05:54
'No,' I answer. 'Conjuring tricks, not real magic.'
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'Ne', odgovorih. 'Obični trikovi, ne prava magija.'
05:58
'Real magic,' in other words, refers to the magic that is not real;
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Prava magija, drugim rečima, se odnosi na magiju koja nije prava,
06:02
while the magic that is real, that can actually be done, is not real magic."
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dok magija koja se zapravo može izvesti, nije prava magija."
06:07
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
06:11
Now, that's the way a lot of people feel about consciousness.
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E sada, to je način na koji ljudi najčešće doživljavaju svesnost.
06:15
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
06:16
Real consciousness is not a bag of tricks.
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Prava svesnost nije vreća trikova.
06:18
If you're going to explain this as a bag of tricks,
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Ako nameravate da je objasnite kao vreću trikova,
06:20
then it's not real consciousness, whatever it is.
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onda to nije prava svest, šta god da je u pitanju.
06:23
And, as Marvin said, and as other people have said,
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I, kao što je Marvin rekao, i kao što su drugi ljudi rekli,
06:29
"Consciousness is a bag of tricks."
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"Svest je samo vreća trikova".
06:32
This means that a lot of people are just left completely dissatisfied
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To znači da su mnogi ljudi ostali potpuno nezadovoljeni
06:37
and incredulous when I attempt to explain consciousness.
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i nepoverljivi kada sam pokušao da im objasnim svesnost.
06:40
So this is the problem. So I have to
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Tako da to je problem. Tako ja moram da se potrudim
06:43
do a little bit of the sort of work
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da odradim jedan posao
06:46
that a lot of you won't like,
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koji se većini neće dopasti,
06:50
for the same reason that you don't like to see
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iz istog razloga iz kog ne volite da vidite
06:52
a magic trick explained to you.
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objašnjenje nekog mađioničarskog trika.
06:54
How many of you here, if somebody -- some smart aleck --
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Koliko vas ovde, ako i iko -- možda neki pametnjaković --
06:58
starts telling you how a particular magic trick is done,
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kada neko počne da vam objašnjava kako je neki trik izveden,
07:01
you sort of want to block your ears and say, "No, no, I don't want to know!
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vi poželite da prekrijete oči i kažete, "Ne, ne, ne želim da znam!
07:04
Don't take the thrill of it away. I'd rather be mystified.
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Nemoj da mi oduvaš čaroliju. Neka ostane tajnovito.
07:07
Don't tell me the answer."
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Nemoj da mi odaš rešenje."
07:10
A lot of people feel that way about consciousness, I've discovered.
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Mnogi ljudi se tako osećaju kada je u pitanju svesnost, otkrio sam.
07:13
And I'm sorry if I impose some clarity, some understanding on you.
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I izvinjavam se ako sam vam nemetnuo neku jasnoću, neko razumevanje.
07:19
You'd better leave now if you don't want to know some of these tricks.
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Bolje da odete odmah ako ne želite da saznate neke od ovih trikova.
07:24
But I'm not going to explain it all to you.
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Ali neću vam sve objasniti.
07:28
I'm going to do what philosophers do.
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Uradiću ono što svi filozofi rade.
07:31
Here's how a philosopher explains the sawing-the-lady-in-half trick.
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Evo kako filozof objašnjava damu presečenu na pola u triku.
07:37
You know the sawing-the-lady-in-half trick?
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Znate li za trik sa damom presečenom na pola?
07:39
The philosopher says, "I'm going to explain to you how that's done.
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Filozof kaže, "Sada ću vam objasniti kako se to radi.
07:43
You see, the magician doesn't really saw the lady in half."
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Vidite, mađioničar zapravo ne seče damu na pola."
07:48
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
07:50
"He merely makes you think that he does."
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"On samo učini da vi mislite da on to radi."
07:54
And you say, "Yes, and how does he do that?"
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I vi kažete "Da, ali kako on to uradi?"
07:55
He says, "Oh, that's not my department, I'm sorry."
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A on odgovori, "O, to već nije moje područje, žao mi je."
07:57
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
08:02
So now I'm going to illustrate how philosophers explain consciousness.
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E sada ću vam ilustrovati kako filozofi objašnjavaju svesnost.
08:05
But I'm going to try to also show you
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Ali pokušaću takođe i da vam dokažem
08:08
that consciousness isn't quite as marvelous --
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da svesnost i nije baš toliko veličanstvena --
08:11
your own consciousness isn't quite as wonderful --
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vaša lična svest nije tako predivna --
08:13
as you may have thought it is.
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kako vi inače mislite da je.
08:15
This is something, by the way, that Lee Siegel talks about in his book.
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To je nešto, između ostalog, o čemu Li Sigel govori u svojoj knjizi.
08:19
He marvels at how he'll do a magic show, and afterwards
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On prvo sa oduševljenjem najavljuje magični šou, i posle toga
08:23
people will swear they saw him do X, Y, and Z. He never did those things.
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ljudi će se zakleti da su ga videli da radi X, Y i Z. A on nikada ne uradi te stvari.
08:27
He didn't even try to do those things.
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Nije se čak ni potrudio da ih uradi.
08:29
People's memories inflate what they think they saw.
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Ljudska memorija naduvava ono što su mislili da su videli.
08:33
And the same is true of consciousness.
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I ista je i istina o svesnosti.
08:36
Now, let's see if this will work. All right. Let's just watch this.
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Sada da vidimo da li će ovo da radi. U redu. Pogledajmo sada ovo.
08:43
Watch it carefully.
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Gledajte pažljivo.
08:56
I'm working with a young computer-animator documentarian
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Radim sa jednim mladim komjuter-animatorom dokumentarac
08:59
named Nick Deamer, and this is a little demo that he's done for me,
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zove se Nik Dimer, i ovo je jedan mali demo koji je uradio za mene,
09:04
part of a larger project some of you may be interested in.
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deo jednog većeg projekta za koji bi neki od vas možda bili zainteresovani.
09:07
We're looking for a backer.
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Tražimo nekog da nas pokriva.
09:10
It's a feature-length documentary on consciousness.
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To je dugometražni dokumentarac o svesnosti.
09:14
OK, now, you all saw what changed, right?
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Ok, svi ste videli šta se promenilo, je l' da?
09:20
How many of you noticed that every one of those squares changed color?
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Koliko vas je primetilo da je svaki od ovih kvadrata promenio boju?
09:25
Every one. I'll just show you by running it again.
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Svi. Pokazaću vam još jednom.
09:34
Even when you know that they're all going to change color,
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Čak i kada znate da će promeniti boju,
09:39
it's very hard to notice. You have to really concentrate
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veoma je teško primetiti. Morate se jako skoncentrisati
09:43
to pick up any of the changes at all.
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da bi uhvatili bilo koju promenu.
09:46
Now, this is an example -- one of many --
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E sada, ovo je primer -- jedan od mnogih --
09:51
of a phenomenon that's now being studied quite a bit.
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fenomena koji će se sada prostudirati.
09:53
It's one that I predicted in the last page or two of my
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O ovome sam govorio na poslednjim stranama svoje
09:57
1991 book, "Consciousness Explained,"
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knjige iz 1991, "Objašnjenje svesnosti",
09:59
where I said if you did experiments of this sort,
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gde sam istakao da ako sprovodite eksperimente ove vrste,
10:02
you'd find that people were unable to pick up really large changes.
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otkrićete da ljudi nisu sposobni da primete izuzetno velike promene.
10:05
If there's time at the end,
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Ako nam ostane vremena pri kraju,
10:07
I'll show you the much more dramatic case.
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pokazaću vam još dramatičniji primer.
10:10
Now, how can it be that there are all those changes going on,
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Sada, kako je moguće da se tolike promene dese,
10:15
and that we're not aware of them?
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a mi ih nismo svesni?
10:18
Well, earlier today, Jeff Hawkins mentioned the way your eye saccades,
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Nešto ranije danas, Džef Hokins je spominjao očne sakade,
10:23
the way your eye moves around three or four times a second.
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način na koji se oči pokreću tri do četiri puta u sekundi.
10:26
He didn't mention the speed. Your eye is constantly in motion,
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Nije spomenuo brzinu. Vaše oko je konstantno u pokretu,
10:29
moving around, looking at eyes, noses, elbows,
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kreće se naokolo, gleda oči, noseve, laktove,
10:32
looking at interesting things in the world.
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posmatra interesantne stvari u svetu.
10:34
And where your eye isn't looking,
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I tamo gde vaše oči ne gledaju,
10:36
you're remarkably impoverished in your vision.
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vi ste neverovatno uskraćeni za potpun doživljaj.
10:39
That's because the foveal part of your eye,
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To je iz razloga što je vaš fovalni deo oka,
10:42
which is the high-resolution part,
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koji je i deo sa najvećom rezolucijom,
10:44
is only about the size of your thumbnail held at arms length.
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veličine vašeg nokta na palcu kada ga držite na udaljenosti dužine vaše ispružene ruke.
10:47
That's the detail part.
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To je deo za detalje.
10:49
It doesn't seem that way, does it?
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Ne deluje baš tako, zar ne?
10:52
It doesn't seem that way, but that's the way it is.
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Ne deluje, ali upravo je tako.
10:54
You're getting in a lot less information than you think.
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Dobijate mnogo manje informacija nego što mislite.
10:58
Here's a completely different effect. This is a painting by Bellotto.
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Ovo je jedan potpuno drugačiji efekat. Ovo je Belotoova slika.
11:04
It's in the museum in North Carolina.
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Nalazi se u muzeju Severne Karoline.
11:06
Bellotto was a student of Canaletto's.
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Beloto je bio Kanaletov student.
11:09
And I love paintings like that --
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I ja jako volim takve slike --
11:10
the painting is actually about as big as it is right here.
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slika je otprlike iste veličine kao ova ovde.
11:14
And I love Canalettos, because Canaletto has this fantastic detail,
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I ja volim Kanaleta, jer on na slikama prikazuje neverovatne detalje,
11:17
and you can get right up
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i možete se približiti
11:20
and see all the details on the painting.
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i videti sve te detalje na slici.
11:23
And I started across the hall in North Carolina,
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Tako sam ja krenuo holom u Severnoj Karolini,
11:28
because I thought it was probably a Canaletto,
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jer sam mislio da je to verovatno Kanaleto,
11:30
and would have all that in detail.
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i mislio da ću videti svaki detalj.
11:32
And I noticed that on the bridge there, there's a lot of people --
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I primetio sam da se na mostu nalazi mnogo ljudi --
11:35
you can just barely see them walking across the bridge.
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jedva da ih možete i videti uopšte kako prelaze most.
11:38
And I thought as I got closer
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Pomislio sam kako sam prilazio bliže
11:39
I would be able to see all the detail of most people,
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da ću videti sve detalje većine ljudi,
11:42
see their clothes, and so forth.
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videti njihovu odeću, i tako redom.
11:44
And as I got closer and closer, I actually screamed.
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I kako sam prilazio bliže i bliže, zamalo sam vrisnuo.
11:48
I yelled out because when I got closer,
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Uzviknuo sam jer kako sam prišao bliže,
11:50
I found the detail wasn't there at all.
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otkrio sam da detalji uopšte ne postoje.
11:54
There were just little artfully placed blobs of paint.
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Tu su bili samo mali balončići boje.
11:58
And as I walked towards the picture,
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I kako sam prilazio slici,
12:01
I was expecting detail that wasn't there.
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očekivao sam detalje koji uopšte nisu bili tu.
12:04
The artist had very cleverly suggested people and clothes
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Umetnik je veoma domišljato pretpostavio ljude i odeću
12:09
and wagons and all sorts of things,
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vagone i svakojake stvari,
12:12
and my brain had taken the suggestion.
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i moj mozak je prihvatio tu sugestiju.
12:15
You're familiar with a more recent technology, which is -- There,
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Poznata vam je skorašnja tehnologija, koja je -- tu.
12:21
you can get a better view of the blobs.
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Možete dobiti bolji prikaz balončića.
12:23
See, when you get close
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Vidite, kada se približite
12:25
they're really just blobs of paint.
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oni su samo balončići boje.
12:30
You will have seen something like this -- this is the reverse effect.
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Videli ste nešto ovako -- ovo je obrnuti efekat.
12:44
I'll just give that to you one more time.
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Daću vam to još jednom.
12:47
Now, what does your brain do when it takes the suggestion?
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E sad, šta vaš mozak radi kada prihvati sugestiju?
12:54
When an artful blob of paint or two, by an artist,
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Kada oblikovani balončić boje, ili dva, urađeni od strane umetnika,
12:59
suggests a person -- say, one of
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nagoveštavaju osobu -- recimo, jednu od
13:05
Marvin Minsky's little society of mind --
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Marvin Minskijevih malih društava uma --
13:07
do they send little painters out to fill in all the details in your brain somewhere?
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da li oni šalju male slikare da popune sve nedostajeće detalje negde u vašem mozgu?
13:12
I don't think so. Not a chance. But then, how on Earth is it done?
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Ne verujem. Nema šanse. Ali onda, za ime boga, kako se to dešava?
13:17
Well, remember the philosopher's explanation of the lady?
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Pa, sećate se filozofovog objašnjenja prepolovljene dame?
13:22
It's the same thing.
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Ista je stvar.
13:25
The brain just makes you think that it's got the detail there.
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Mozak samo učini da vi pomislite da su detalji tamo.
13:28
You think the detail's there, but it isn't there.
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Vi mislite da su detalji tamo, ali oni nisu.
13:31
The brain isn't actually putting the detail in your head at all.
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Mozak ne ubacuje detalje u vašu glavu uopšte.
13:34
It's just making you expect the detail.
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Samo čini da vi očekujete detalje.
13:37
Let's just do this experiment very quickly.
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Hajde da uradimo ovaj eksperiment jako brzo.
13:40
Is the shape on the left the same as the shape on the right, rotated?
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Da li je oblik na levoj strani isti obliku na desnoj, samo rotiran?
13:45
Yes.
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Da.
13:47
How many of you did it by rotating the one on the left
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Koliko vas je to otkrilo tako što su rotirali oblik na levoj strani
13:49
in your mind's eye, to see if it matched up with the one on the right?
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u svojoj glavi, da bi videli da li se poklapa sa oblikom na desnoj?
13:52
How many of you rotated the one on the right? OK.
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A koliko od vas su rotirali onaj na desnoj? Ok.
13:56
How do you know that's what you did?
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A kako znate da ste uradili baš to?
13:58
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
14:01
There's in fact been a very interesting debate
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Odvija se jedna jako interesantna debata
14:03
raging for over 20 years in cognitive science --
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tačnije besni već 20 godina u kognitivnoj nauci --
14:06
various experiments started by Roger Shepherd,
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počevši sa različitim eksperimentima Rodžera Šeparda,
14:08
who measured the angular velocity of rotation of mental images.
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koji je merio ugaonu brzinu rotacije mentalnih slika.
14:13
Yes, it's possible to do that.
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Da, moguće je to raditi.
14:15
But the details of the process are still in significant controversy.
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Mada su detalji tog procesa još uvek znatno kontroverzni.
14:22
And if you read that literature, one of the things
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I ako budete čitali tu literaturu, jedna od stvari
14:25
that you really have to come to terms with is
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sa kojom ćete morati da se pomirite
14:28
even when you're the subject in the experiment, you don't know.
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jeste to da čak i kada ste subjekt u eksperimentu, vi to ne znate.
14:30
You don't know how you do it.
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Ne znaš ni kako ti to radiš.
14:32
You just know that you have certain beliefs.
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Samo znaš da imaš određena uverenja.
14:35
And they come in a certain order, at a certain time.
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I ona dolaze određenim redom, u određeno vreme.
14:38
And what explains the fact that that's what you think?
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I šta objašnjava činjenicu da je upravo to ono što misliš?
14:40
Well, that's where you have to go backstage and ask the magician.
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Pa, to je trenutak kada treba da odeš iza pozornice i upitaš mađioničara.
14:44
This is a figure that I love: Bradley, Petrie, and Dumais.
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Ovo je figura koju jako volim: Bredli, Petri i Dumejz.
14:48
You may think that I've cheated,
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Možda pomislite da sam varao,
14:50
that I've put a little whiter-than-white boundary there.
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da sam stavio svetlije bele granice ovde.
14:55
How many of you see that sort of boundary,
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Koliko vas vidi neku vrstu granica,
14:57
with the Necker cube floating in front of the circles?
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sa Nekerovom kockom kako pluta iznad krugova?
15:00
Can you see it?
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Vidite li?
15:02
Well, you know, in effect, the boundary's really there, in a certain sense.
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Pa znate, u suštini, granice su ipak tu, u određenom smislu.
15:07
Your brain is actually computing that boundary,
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Vaš mozak je zapravo načinio tu granicu,
15:10
the boundary that goes right there.
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granicu koja ide upravo tuda.
15:15
But now, notice there are two ways of seeing the cube, right?
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Sada, primećujete da postoje dva načina da vidite kocku, je l' da?
15:17
It's a Necker cube.
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To je Nekerova kocka.
15:19
Everybody can see the two ways of seeing the cube? OK.
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Svi mogu videti dva načina za doživljaj kocke? Ok.
15:23
Can you see the four ways of seeing the cube?
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Možete li videti četiri načina da je vidite?
15:27
Because there's another way of seeing it.
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Jer postoji i drugačiji način kako je možete gledati.
15:29
If you're seeing it as a cube floating in front of some circles,
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Ako je vidite kao kocku koja lebdi ispred nekih krugova,
15:32
some black circles, there's another way of seeing it.
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crnih krugova, postoji drugi način da je vidite.
15:35
As a cube, on a black background,
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Kao kocka, na crnoj pozadini,
15:37
as seen through a piece of Swiss cheese.
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viđena kao parče švajcarskog sira.
15:39
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
15:42
Can you get it? How many of you can't get it? That'll help.
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Vidite li? Koliko vas ne može da vidi? Ovo će pomoći.
15:48
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
15:50
Now you can get it. These are two very different phenomena.
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Sada je vidite. Ovo su dva veoma različita fenomena.
15:55
When you see the cube one way, behind the screen,
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Kada vidite kocku na jedan način, iza ekrana,
16:01
those boundaries go away.
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ove granice nestaju.
16:03
But there's still a sort of filling in, as we can tell if we look at this.
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Ali i dalje postoji neka vrsta popunjavanja, što možemo reći ukoliko pogledamo ovo.
16:08
We don't have any trouble seeing the cube, but where does the color change?
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Nemamo nikakvih problema da vidimo kocku, ali gde se menja boja?
16:12
Does your brain have to send little painters in there?
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Da li vaš mozak mora da šalje male slikare tamo?
16:15
The purple-painters and the green-painters
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Purpurne i zelene slikare
16:17
fight over who's going to paint that bit behind the curtain? No.
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koji se bore oko toga ko će da slika iza zavese? Ne.
16:20
Your brain just lets it go. The brain doesn't need to fill that in.
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Vaš mozak se samo prepušta. Ne mora da popunjava to.
16:29
When I first started talking about
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Kada sam prvi put počeo da govorim
16:32
the Bradley, Petrie, Dumais example that you just saw --
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o Bredlij, Petri, Dumejz primeru koji ste upravo videli --
16:36
I'll go back to it, this one --
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vratiću se na to, ovo --
16:40
I said that there was no filling-in behind there.
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rekao sam da ne postoji popunjavanje u pozadini.
16:47
And I supposed that that was just a flat truth, always true.
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I pretpostavio sam da je to bila čista istina, uvek ispravna.
16:50
But Rob Van Lier has recently shown that it isn't.
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Ali Rob Van Lier je skoro pokazao da to nije slučaj.
16:55
Now, if you think you see some pale yellow --
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Ako mislite da vidite neku bledo žutu --
17:00
I'll run this a few more times.
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pustiću ovo još nekoliko puta.
17:02
Look in the gray areas,
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Gledajte ove sive delove,
17:06
and see if you seem to see something sort of shadowy moving in there --
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i vidite da li vam se čini da vidite neko tajnovito kretanje tamo --
17:11
yeah, it's amazing. There's nothing there. It's no trick.
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da! To je neverovatno. Tamo nema ničega. I to nije trik.
17:18
["Failure to Detect Changes in Scenes" slide]
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["Greška u detekciji promena u nauci"]
17:24
This is Ron Rensink's work, which was in some degree
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To je rad Rona Rensinka, koji je u izvesnom stepenu bio
17:26
inspired by that suggestion right at the end of the book.
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inspirisan sugestijom na kraju te knjige.
17:30
Let me just pause this for a second if I can.
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Dajte da pauziram ovo na sekund ako je moguće.
17:32
This is change-blindness.
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Ovo je slepilo za promene.
17:34
What you're going to see is two pictures,
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Ono što ćete videti na ovim dvema slikama,
17:36
one of which is slightly different from the other.
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jeste da su one prilično drugačije jedna od druge.
17:38
You see here the red roof and the gray roof,
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Vidite ovde jedan crveni krov i jedan sivi,
17:41
and in between them there will be a mask,
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i između njih će biti maska,
17:43
which is just a blank screen, for about a quarter of a second.
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koja će predstavljati samo prazan ekran, u trajanju od otprilike četvrtinu sekunde.
17:47
So you'll see the first picture, then a mask,
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Tako ćete videti prvu sliku, onda masku.
17:49
then the second picture, then a mask.
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I onda drugu sliku, pa opet masku.
17:51
And this will just continue, and your job as the subject
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I tako će se to ponavljati, a vaš posao kao subjekta
17:55
is to press the button when you see the change.
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je da pritisnete dugme kada primetite promenu.
17:58
So, show the original picture for 240 milliseconds. Blank.
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Prikaži originalnu sliku na 240 milisekundi. Prazno.
18:06
Show the next picture for 240 milliseconds. Blank.
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Prikaži sledeću sliku na 240 milisekundi. Prazno.
18:12
And keep going, until the subject presses the button, saying,
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I nastavi, dok subjekt ne pritisne dugme, i izgovori
18:16
"I see the change."
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"Video sam promenu".
18:18
So now we're going to be subjects in the experiment.
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Sada ćemo biti subjekti u eksperimentu.
18:21
We're going to start easy. Some examples.
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Počećemo polako. Nekoliko primera.
18:30
No trouble there.
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Nema problema ovde.
18:32
Can everybody see? All right.
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Mogu li svi da vide? U redu.
18:35
Indeed, Rensink's subjects took only a little bit more
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Zaista, Rensinkovim subjektima je trebalo nešto malo preko
18:39
than a second to press the button.
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jedne sekunde da pritisnu dugme.
18:46
Can you see that one?
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Vidite li ovu?
18:55
2.9 seconds.
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2.9 sekundi.
19:04
How many don't see it still?
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Koliko vas još uvek ne vidi?
19:07
What's on the roof of that barn?
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Šta je na krovu tog ambara?
19:09
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
19:20
It's easy.
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Ovo je lako.
19:46
Is it a bridge or a dock?
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Je li to most ili dok?
19:52
There are a few more really dramatic ones, and then I'll close.
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Ima još nekoliko dramatičnih, i onda završavam.
19:56
I want you to see a few that are particularly striking.
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Hoću da vidite nekoliko koji su posebno upečatljivi.
20:00
This one because it's so large and yet it's pretty hard to see.
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Ova zbog toga što je toliko velika a ipak je teško opaziti.
20:07
Can you see it?
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Vidite li?
20:10
Audience: Yes.
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Publika: Da
20:12
Dan Dennett: See the shadows going back and forth? Pretty big.
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Vidite li senku koja ide napred - nazad? Prilično veliko.
20:23
So 15.5 seconds is the median time
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15 ipo sekundi je prosečno vreme
20:27
for subjects in his experiment there.
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za subjekte u ovom eksperimentu.
20:29
I love this one. I'll end with this one,
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Ovu baš volim. Završiću sa njom,
20:32
just because it's such an obvious and important thing.
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jer je ovo jedna tako očigledna i važna stvar.
20:37
How many still don't see it? How many still don't see it?
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Koliko vas još ne vidi? Koliko vas još ne vidi?
20:43
How many engines on the wing of that Boeing?
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Koliko je motora na krilu tog Boinga?
20:46
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
20:47
Right in the middle of the picture!
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Tačno u sredini slike!
20:53
Thanks very much for your attention.
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Hvala vam puno na vašoj pažnji.
20:54
What I wanted to show you is that scientists,
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Ono što sam želeo da vam pokažem jeste da naučnici,
20:59
using their from-the-outside, third-person methods,
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koristeći spoljne metode iz trećeg lica,
21:03
can tell you things about your own consciousness
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mogu da vam kažu stvari o vašoj svesti
21:05
that you would never dream of,
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o kojima ne biste mogli ni da sanjate.
21:07
and that, in fact, you're not the authority
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A to je, u suštini, da vi niste autoriteti
21:09
on your own consciousness that you think you are.
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vaše svesnosti u onoj meri u kojoj ste mislili da jeste.
21:11
And we're really making a lot of progress
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I mi zaista pravimo veliki napredak
21:13
on coming up with a theory of mind.
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u stvaranju teorije uma.
21:16
Jeff Hawkins, this morning, was describing his attempt
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Džef Hokins je, ovoga jutra, opisivao pokušaj
21:22
to get theory, and a good, big theory, into the neuroscience.
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da dođe do teorije, dobre obuhvatne teorije, u neuronauci.
21:26
And he's right. This is a problem.
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I on je u pravu. To jeste problem.
21:31
Harvard Medical School once -- I was at a talk --
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Na jednom govoru kome sam prisustvovao, na medicinskom fakultetu na Harvardu,
21:33
director of the lab said, "In our lab, we have a saying.
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direktor laboratorije je rekao, "U našoj laboratoriji, imamo izreku.
21:37
If you work on one neuron, that's neuroscience.
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Ako radite na jednom neuronu, to je neuronauka.
21:40
If you work on two neurons, that's psychology."
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Ako radite na dva neurona, to je psihologija".
21:43
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
21:47
We have to have more theory, and it can come as much from the top down.
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Moramo imati više teorija, a mnogo ih može doći sa vrha prema dnu.
21:50
Thank you very much.
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Puno vam hvala.
21:52
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Dan Dennett - Philosopher, cognitive scientistDan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes.
Why you should listen
One of our most important living philosophers, Dan Dennett is best known for his provocative and controversial arguments that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes in the brain. He argues that the brain's computational circuitry fools us into thinking we know more than we do, and that what we call consciousness — isn't. His 2003 book "Freedom Evolves" explores how our brains evolved to give us -- and only us -- the kind of freedom that matters, while 2006's "Breaking the Spell" examines belief through the lens of biology.
This mind-shifting perspective on the mind itself has distinguished Dennett's career as a philosopher and cognitive scientist. And while the philosophy community has never quite known what to make of Dennett (he defies easy categorization, and refuses to affiliate himself with accepted schools of thought), his computational approach to understanding the brain has made him, as Edge's John Brockman writes, “the philosopher of choice of the AI community.”
“It's tempting to say that Dennett has never met a robot he didn't like, and that what he likes most about them is that they are philosophical experiments,” Harry Blume wrote in the Atlantic Monthly in 1998. “To the question of whether machines can attain high-order intelligence, Dennett makes this provocative answer: ‘The best reason for believing that robots might some day become conscious is that we human beings are conscious, and we are a sort of robot ourselves.'"
In recent years, Dennett has become outspoken in his atheism, and his 2006 book Breaking the Spell calls for religion to be studied through the scientific lens of evolutionary biology. Dennett regards religion as a natural -- rather than supernatural -- phenomenon, and urges schools to break the taboo against empirical examination of religion. He argues that religion's influence over human behavior is precisely what makes gaining a rational understanding of it so necessary: “If we don't understand religion, we're going to miss our chance to improve the world in the 21st century.”
Dennett's landmark books include The Mind's I, co-edited with Douglas Hofstaedter, Consciousness Explained, and Darwin's Dangerous Idea. Read an excerpt from his 2013 book, Intuition Pumps, in the Guardian >>
Dan Dennett | Speaker | TED.com