TEDxHousesOfParliament
Onora O'Neill: What we don't understand about trust
Onora O'Nil (Onora O'Neill): Šta ne razumemo o poverenju
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Poverenje opada, i treba ga ponovo izgraditi. To nam često predlažu kako bi se izgradio bolji svet... Ali, filozof Onora O'Nil tvrdi da mi istinski ne razumemo to što predlažemo. Ona to pitanje prevrće i pokazuje da nas tri najčešće ideje o poverenju u stvari vode u pogrešnom smeru.
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Onora O'Neill - Philosopher
Baroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life. Full bio
Baroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So I'm going to talk about trust,
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Pričaću vam o poverenju
00:14
and I'm going to start by reminding you
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i počeću podsećanjem
00:16
of the standard views that people have about trust.
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na standardne stavove
koje ljudi imaju o poverenju.
koje ljudi imaju o poverenju.
00:20
I think these are so commonplace,
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Mislim da su toliko uobičajeni
00:22
they've become clichés of our society.
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da su postali
klišei našeg društva.
klišei našeg društva.
00:25
And I think there are three.
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Mislim da ih je tri.
00:27
One's a claim: there has been a great decline in trust,
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Prvi je tvrdnja: javio se
veliki pad u poverenju,
veliki pad u poverenju,
00:31
very widely believed.
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i to mišljenje je
vrlo rasprostranjeno.
vrlo rasprostranjeno.
00:33
The second is an aim: we should have more trust.
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Drugi je težnja: treba da
imamo više poverenja.
imamo više poverenja.
00:38
And the third is a task: we should rebuild trust.
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Treći je zadatak: poverenje
treba da povratimo.
treba da povratimo.
00:43
I think that the claim, the aim and the task
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Mislim da su te tri stvari -
tvrdnja, težnja i zadatak -
tvrdnja, težnja i zadatak -
00:48
are all misconceived.
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svi pogrešno shvaćeni.
00:50
So what I'm going to try to tell you today
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Danas ću pokušati
da vam ispričam
da vam ispričam
00:52
is a different story about a claim, an aim and a task
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jednu drugačiju priču
o tvrdnji, težnji i zadatku,
o tvrdnji, težnji i zadatku,
00:56
which I think give one quite a lot better purchase on the matter.
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koja, mislim, daje jednu
bolju sliku čitave stvari.
bolju sliku čitave stvari.
01:01
First the claim: Why do people think trust has declined?
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Prvo, tvrdnja: zašto ljudi misle
da je poverenje opalo?
da je poverenje opalo?
01:06
And if I really think about it on the basis of my own evidence,
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Ako istinski razmislim o tome,
na osnovu sopstvenog iskustva,
na osnovu sopstvenog iskustva,
01:09
I don't know the answer.
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ja odgovor ne znam.
01:11
I'm inclined to think it may have declined
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Težim mišljenju da
je možda opalo
je možda opalo
01:15
in some activities or some institutions
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u nekim aktivnostima
ili nekim institucijama,
ili nekim institucijama,
01:18
and it might have grown in others.
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a možda poraslo u drugim.
01:20
I don't have an overview.
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Nemam nikakav pregled.
01:22
But, of course, I can look at the opinion polls,
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Naravno, mogu da pogledam
istraživanja javnog mnenja,
istraživanja javnog mnenja,
01:27
and the opinion polls are supposedly
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a istraživanja javnog
mnenja su navodno
mnenja su navodno
01:29
the source of a belief that trust has declined.
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izvor uverenja da
je poverenje opalo.
je poverenje opalo.
01:33
When you actually look at opinion polls across time,
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Ako stvarno pogledate istraživanja
javnog mnenja tokom vremena,
javnog mnenja tokom vremena,
01:37
there's not much evidence for that.
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nema tako puno dokaza.
01:39
That's to say, the people who were mistrusted
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To jest, osobe u koje se
nije imalo poverenja
nije imalo poverenja
01:41
20 years ago,
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pre 20 godina -
01:43
principally journalists and politicians, are still mistrusted.
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najpre novinari i političari -
i dalje ne zavređuju poverenje.
i dalje ne zavređuju poverenje.
01:47
And the people who were highly trusted 20 years ago
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A ljudima kojima se pre 20
godina jako verovalo
godina jako verovalo
01:51
are still rather highly trusted: judges, nurses.
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njima se i dalje prilično veruje,
i to su sudije, medicinske sestre.
i to su sudije, medicinske sestre.
01:54
The rest of us are in between,
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Mi ostali smo u sredini,
01:56
and by the way, the average person in the street
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a uzgred, prosečan
prolaznik na ulici
prolaznik na ulici
01:59
is almost exactly midway.
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je gotovo tačno na sredini.
02:01
But is that good evidence?
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Ali da li je to dobar dokaz?
02:03
What opinion polls record is, of course, opinions.
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Ono što istraživanja javnog mnenja
beleže je, naravno, mišljenje.
beleže je, naravno, mišljenje.
02:08
What else can they record?
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Šta drugo mogu beležiti?
02:09
So they're looking at the generic attitudes
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Dakle, posmatraju se
opšti stavovi
opšti stavovi
02:13
that people report when you ask them certain questions.
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koje ljudi zauzmu kada im
se postave određena pitanja.
se postave određena pitanja.
02:16
Do you trust politicians? Do you trust teachers?
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Da li verujete političarima?
Da li verujete nastavnicima?
Da li verujete nastavnicima?
02:20
Now if somebody said to you, "Do you trust greengrocers?
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Kad bi vas neko pitao:
„Da li verujete piljarima?
„Da li verujete piljarima?
02:24
Do you trust fishmongers?
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Da li verujete prodavcima ribe?
02:26
Do you trust elementary school teachers?"
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Da li verujete nastavnicima
u osnovnim školama?",
u osnovnim školama?",
02:28
you would probably begin by saying, "To do what?"
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Verovatno ćete započeti
sa: „U vezi sa čim?"
sa: „U vezi sa čim?"
02:32
And that would be a perfectly sensible response.
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I to bi bila savršeno
razumna reakcija.
razumna reakcija.
02:35
And you might say, when you understood the answer to that,
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I kada shvatite odgovor
na to, rekli biste:
na to, rekli biste:
02:40
"Well, I trust some of them, but not others."
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„Pa, nekima verujem,
a nekima ne."
a nekima ne."
02:44
That's a perfectly rational thing.
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To je savršeno razumno.
02:46
In short, in our real lives,
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Ukratko, u našem
stvarnom životu
stvarnom životu
02:49
we seek to place trust in a differentiated way.
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težimo da poverenje
ukažemo na različite načine.
ukažemo na različite načine.
02:52
We don't make an assumption that the level of trust
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Ne pretpostavljamo da
će nivo poverenja -
će nivo poverenja -
02:56
that we will have in every instance of a certain type
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koje dajemo svakom
02:59
of official or office-holder or type of person
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zvaničniku ili funkcioneru
ili nekoj trećoj osobi -
ili nekoj trećoj osobi -
03:03
is going to be uniform.
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da će taj nivo
svuda biti isti.
svuda biti isti.
03:05
I might, for example, say that I certainly trust
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Ja bih na primer rekla
da svakako verujem
da svakako verujem
03:09
a certain elementary school teacher I know
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određenoj nastavnici koju znam
03:11
to teach the reception class to read,
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da uči prvake da čitaju,
03:14
but in no way to drive the school minibus.
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ali ne bih imala poverenja u nju
da vozi školski autobus.
da vozi školski autobus.
03:18
I might, after all, know that she wasn't a good driver.
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Možda, ipak, znam da
ona nije dobar vozač.
ona nije dobar vozač.
03:21
I might trust my most loquacious friend
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Možda bih verovala da
moj najbrbljiviji prijatelj
moj najbrbljiviji prijatelj
03:24
to keep a conversation going
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može da održava razgovor,
03:26
but not -- but perhaps not to keep a secret.
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ali ne - verovatno ne
i da sačuva tajnu.
i da sačuva tajnu.
03:36
Simple.
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Prosto.
03:37
So if we've got those evidence in our ordinary lives
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Ako imamo takve dokaze
u našim običnim životima
u našim običnim životima
03:42
of the way that trust is differentiated,
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o različitim načinima
ukazivanja poverenja,
ukazivanja poverenja,
03:44
why do we sort of drop all that intelligence
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zašto mi onda takve
informacije zaboravljamo
informacije zaboravljamo
03:47
when we think about trust more abstractly?
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kada malo apstraktnije
razmislimo o poverenju?
razmislimo o poverenju?
03:51
I think the polls are very bad guides
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Mislim da su ankete
veoma loši pokazatelji
veoma loši pokazatelji
03:54
to the level of trust that actually exists,
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nivoa poverenja koje
zaista postoji,
zaista postoji,
03:57
because they try to obliterate the good judgment
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jer pokušavaju da
umanje zdrav razum
umanje zdrav razum
04:00
that goes into placing trust.
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koji koristimo kada nekom
ukazujemo poverenje.
ukazujemo poverenje.
04:04
Secondly, what about the aim?
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Drugo, šta je s ciljem?
04:06
The aim is to have more trust.
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Cilj je da imamo
više poverenja.
više poverenja.
04:09
Well frankly, I think that's a stupid aim.
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Iskreno, ja smatram
da je to glup cilj.
da je to glup cilj.
04:12
It's not what I would aim at.
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To nije nešto čemu
bih ja težila.
bih ja težila.
04:14
I would aim to have more trust in the trustworthy
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Ja bih težila ka tome da imamo
poverenja u one koji su ga vredni,
poverenja u one koji su ga vredni,
04:17
but not in the untrustworthy.
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a ne u one koji nisu.
(Smeh)
(Smeh)
04:20
In fact, I aim positively to try not to trust the untrustworthy.
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Zapravo, ja istinski pokušavam da ne dajem
poverenje onima koji ga nisu vredni.
poverenje onima koji ga nisu vredni.
04:27
And I think, of those people who, for example,
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I mislim da, od ljudi
koji su, primera radi.
koji su, primera radi.
04:30
placed their savings with the very aptly named Mr. Madoff,
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svoju ušteđevinu poverili gospodinu
zgodno nazvanom Mejdof,
zgodno nazvanom Mejdof,
04:35
who then made off with them,
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koji ih je potom izigrao
04:38
and I think of them, and I think, well, yes,
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i kad pomislim na te ljude,
da, onda pomislim
da, onda pomislim
04:40
too much trust.
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da su imali previše poverenja.
04:42
More trust is not an intelligent aim in this life.
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Imati više poverenja nije
pametan cilj u životu.
pametan cilj u životu.
04:46
Intelligently placed and intelligently refused trust
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Pametno poklonjeno i
pametno uskraćeno poverenje
pametno uskraćeno poverenje
04:50
is the proper aim.
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su podesni ciljevi.
04:52
Well once one says that, one says, yeah, okay,
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Kaže se da,
04:56
that means that what matters in the first place
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znači, ono što je
pre svega bitno
pre svega bitno
04:59
is not trust but trustworthiness.
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nije poverenje, već
zavređivanje poverenja.
zavređivanje poverenja.
05:02
It's judging how trustworthy people are
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Procenjivanje koliko su
ljudi vredni poverenja
ljudi vredni poverenja
05:05
in particular respects.
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u određenom smislu.
05:07
And I think that judgment requires us to look at three things.
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I ja mislim da ta procena zahteva
da obratimo pažnju na tri stvari.
da obratimo pažnju na tri stvari.
05:10
Are they competent? Are they honest? Are they reliable?
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Da li su sposobni? Da li su
iskreni? Da li su pouzdani?
iskreni? Da li su pouzdani?
05:15
And if we find that a person is competent
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I ako vidimo da je
neka osoba sposobna
neka osoba sposobna
05:18
in the relevant matters,
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za određene stvari,
05:19
and reliable and honest,
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i pouzdana i iskrena,
05:21
we'll have a pretty good reason to trust them,
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imamo prilično dobar osnov
da joj verujemo,
da joj verujemo,
05:23
because they'll be trustworthy.
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jer je vredna poverenja.
05:26
But if, on the other hand, they're unreliable, we might not.
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Ako, s druge strane, nije
pouzdana, onda nećemo verovati.
pouzdana, onda nećemo verovati.
05:29
I have friends who are competent and honest,
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Imam prijatelje koji su
sposobni i pošteni,
sposobni i pošteni,
05:32
but I would not trust them to post a letter,
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ali se ne bih oslonila na
njih da pošalju pismo
njih da pošalju pismo
05:33
because they're forgetful.
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jer su zaboravni,
05:36
I have friends who are very confident
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Imam prijatelje koji veruju
05:39
they can do certain things,
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da mogu da urade
određene stvari,
određene stvari,
05:41
but I realize that they overestimate their own competence.
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ali vidim da precenjuju
sopstvene sposobnosti.
sopstvene sposobnosti.
05:45
And I'm very glad to say, I don't think I have many friends
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I veoma mi je drago da mogu da kažem
da mislim da nemam puno prijatelja
da mislim da nemam puno prijatelja
05:48
who are competent and reliable but extremely dishonest.
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koji su sposobni i pouzdani,
ali izrazito nepošteni.
ali izrazito nepošteni.
05:51
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
05:52
If so, I haven't yet spotted it.
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A ako ih ima,
onda nisam primetila.
onda nisam primetila.
05:56
But that's what we're looking for:
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Ali, to je ono što tražimo:
05:58
trustworthiness before trust.
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zavređivanje poverenja
pre samog poverenja.
pre samog poverenja.
06:00
Trust is the response.
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Poverenje je odgovor na to.
06:02
Trustworthiness is what we have to judge.
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Moramo da procenimo da
li je neko vredan poverenja.
li je neko vredan poverenja.
06:04
And, of course, it's difficult.
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To je, naravno, teško.
06:06
Across the last few decades, we've tried to construct
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Tokom prethodnih nekoliko decenija
pokušali smo da stvorimo
pokušali smo da stvorimo
06:09
systems of accountability for all sorts of institutions
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sisteme odgovornosti
različitih institucija,
različitih institucija,
06:13
and professionals and officials and so on
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profesionalaca i
zvaničnika, itd.
zvaničnika, itd.
06:15
that will make it easier for us to judge their trustworthiness.
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da bismo sebi olakšali
procenu da li su vredni poverenja.
procenu da li su vredni poverenja.
06:19
A lot of these systems have the converse effect.
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Mnogo tih sistema ima
suprotan efekat.
suprotan efekat.
06:23
They don't work as they're supposed to.
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Ne funkcionišu onako
kako bi trebalo.
kako bi trebalo.
06:24
I remember I was talking with a midwife who said,
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Sećam se da sam pričala
s jednom babicom koja je rekla:
s jednom babicom koja je rekla:
06:29
"Well, you see, the problem is it takes longer
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„Pa, vidite, problem je što
više vremena treba
više vremena treba
06:31
to do the paperwork than to deliver the baby."
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da se odradi papirologija
nego da se rodi beba."
nego da se rodi beba."
06:35
And all over our public life, our institutional life,
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I u celom našem javnom
životu, u institucijama
životu, u institucijama
06:38
we find that problem,
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nailazimo na taj problem
06:40
that the system of accountability
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da sistem za procenu,
06:43
that is meant to secure trustworthiness
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koji bi trebalo da
osigura zavređivanje poverenja
osigura zavređivanje poverenja
06:45
and evidence of trustworthiness
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i dokaze za to,
06:48
is actually doing the opposite.
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zapravo radi suprotno.
06:50
It is distracting people who have to do difficult tasks,
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Smeta ljudima koji treba da
obavljaju teške zadatke,
obavljaju teške zadatke,
06:54
like midwives, from doing them
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poput babica,
06:57
by requiring them to tick the boxes, as we say.
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zahtevajući da, što se
kaže, štikliraju kvadratiće,
kaže, štikliraju kvadratiće,
07:00
You can all give your own examples there.
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Svi imate primere toga.
07:02
So so much for the aim.
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Toliko o cilju.
07:04
The aim, I think, is more trustworthiness,
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Cilj je, mislim, pre
zavređivanje poverenja
zavređivanje poverenja
07:07
and that is going to be different
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i to će se razlikovati
07:09
if we are trying to be trustworthy
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ako pokušavamo da budemo
vredni poverenja
vredni poverenja
07:11
and communicate our trustworthiness to other people,
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i da našu vrednost
pokažemo drugma
pokažemo drugma
07:14
and if we are trying to judge whether other people
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i ako pokušavamo da
procenimo da li su drugi ljudi,
procenimo da li su drugi ljudi,
07:17
or office-holders or politicians are trustworthy.
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zvaničnici ili političari
vredni poverenja.
vredni poverenja.
07:20
It's not easy. It is judgment, and simple reaction,
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To nije lako. Tu nema mesta
proceni i prostoj reakciji,
proceni i prostoj reakciji,
07:25
attitudes, don't do adequately here.
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kao ni stavovima.
07:30
Now thirdly, the task.
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Treće, zadatak.
07:33
Calling the task rebuilding trust, I think,
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Mislim da nazivanje zadatka
ponovnim izgrađivanjem poverenja
ponovnim izgrađivanjem poverenja
07:37
also gets things backwards.
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znači nešto sasvim suprotno..
07:38
It suggests that you and I should rebuild trust.
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To bi značilo da treba
da opet izgradimo poverenje.
da opet izgradimo poverenje.
07:43
Well, we can do that for ourselves.
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Možemo to sami da uradimo.
07:46
We can rebuild a bit of trustworthiness.
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Možemo ponovo zavrediti
malo poverenja.
malo poverenja.
07:48
We can do it two people together trying to improve trust.
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Dvoje ljudi mogu pokušati
da zajedno unaprede poverenje.
da zajedno unaprede poverenje.
07:52
But trust, in the end, is distinctive
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Ali, na kraju krajeva,
poverenje je posebno
poverenje je posebno
07:55
because it's given by other people.
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po tome što ga dobijamo
od drugih ljudi.
od drugih ljudi.
07:58
You can't rebuild what other people give you.
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Ne možete ponovo izgraditi
ono što vam ljudi ukazuju.
ono što vam ljudi ukazuju.
08:01
You have to give them the basis
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Morate im dati povoda
08:04
for giving you their trust.
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da imaju poverenja u vas.
08:07
So you have to, I think, be trustworthy.
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Tako da mislim da
morate biti vredni poverenja.
morate biti vredni poverenja.
08:10
And that, of course, is because you can't fool
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Naravno, to je zato što
ne možete nekoga varati
ne možete nekoga varati
08:12
all of the people all of the time, usually.
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sve vreme.
Bar obično ne.
Bar obično ne.
08:16
But you also have to provide usable evidence
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Takođe morate imati
opipljive dokaze
opipljive dokaze
08:21
that you are trustworthy.
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da ste vredni poverenja.
08:22
How to do it?
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Kako to uraditi?
08:24
Well every day, all over the place, it's being done
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To svakoga dana svuda rade
08:27
by ordinary people, by officials, by institutions,
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obični ljudi, zvaničnici,
institucije,
institucije,
08:30
quite effectively.
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i to veoma dobro.
08:32
Let me give you a simple commercial example.
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Daću vam jedan prost
komercijalni primer.
komercijalni primer.
08:35
The shop where I buy my socks says I may take them back,
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Radnja u kojoj kupujem čarape
kaže da ih mogu vratiti,
kaže da ih mogu vratiti,
08:39
and they don't ask any questions.
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i da ne postavljaju
nikakva pitanja.
nikakva pitanja.
08:41
They take them back and give me the money
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Uzmu ih nazad i
vrate mi novac
vrate mi novac
08:43
or give me the pair of socks of the color I wanted.
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ili mi daju par čarapa
u boji koju tražim.
u boji koju tražim.
08:46
That's super. I trust them
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To je odlično.
Verujem im
Verujem im
08:48
because they have made themselves vulnerable to me.
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zato što su sebe
učinili ranjivim.
učinili ranjivim.
08:51
I think there's a big lesson in that.
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U tome je velika pouka.
08:53
If you make yourself vulnerable to the other party,
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Ako sebe učinite ranjivim
08:56
then that is very good evidence that you are trustworthy
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to je onda dobar dokaz
da ste vredni poverenja
da ste vredni poverenja
09:00
and you have confidence in what you are saying.
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i da verujete u to
što govorite.
što govorite.
09:03
So in the end, I think what we are aiming for
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Na kraju, mislim
da svi imamo cilj
da svi imamo cilj
09:06
is not very difficult to discern.
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koji nije toliko
teško prepoznati.
teško prepoznati.
09:09
It is relationships in which people are trustworthy
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To su veze u kojima su
ljudi vredni poverenja
ljudi vredni poverenja
09:13
and can judge when and how the other person
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i mogu da procene kada
je i kako je druga osoba
je i kako je druga osoba
09:17
is trustworthy.
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vredna poverenja.
09:18
So the moral of all this is,
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Pouka svega ovoga je
09:22
we need to think much less about trust,
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da treba da manje
razmišljamo o poverenju,
razmišljamo o poverenju,
09:25
let alone about attitudes of trust
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a da i ne spominjemo
stavove o poverenju,
stavove o poverenju,
09:29
detected or mis-detected by opinion polls,
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koje ankete javnog mnenja
otkriju ili ne otkriju,
otkriju ili ne otkriju,
09:33
much more about being trustworthy,
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i treba da više razmišljamo o
tome da budemo vredni poverenja
tome da budemo vredni poverenja
09:35
and how you give people adequate, useful
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i o tome kako ljudima
pružamo adekvatne, korisne
pružamo adekvatne, korisne
09:39
and simple evidence that you're trustworthy.
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i jednostavne dokaze
da smo vredni poverenja.
da smo vredni poverenja.
09:42
Thanks.
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Hvala.
09:43
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Onora O'Neill - PhilosopherBaroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life.
Why you should listen
Philosopher Baroness Onora O'Neill thinks we are perverting trust. Considering how much stock we put into trust and assessing trusting attitudes, it's something we don't really understand, argues O'Neill. What we really need, she says, is not trust -- but trustworthiness. In addition to her study of how we (wrongly) approach trust and accountability in civic life, O'Neill also focuses on bioethics and international justice.
O'Neill's most recent book, co-written with Neil Manson is Rethinking Informed Consent in Bioethics, published in 2007. She was Principal of Newnham College, a college of the University of Cambridge, from 1992 to 2006, and President of the British Academy from 2005 to 2009. In early 2013 O'Neill was confirmed as the new Chair of England's Equality and Human Rights Commission. She is a crossbench member of the House of Lords.
Onora O'Neill | Speaker | TED.com