TEDxHousesOfParliament
Onora O'Neill: What we don't understand about trust
歐諾拉·歐尼爾: 關於信任的迷思
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信任感在驟減，我們需要重建。這是關於建立一個更好的社會最經常聽到的建議。然而，哲學家歐諾拉·歐尼爾說，我們並不真正瞭解我們在建議的事情。她提出問題並且展示三個最常見的被誤導的信任問題。（攝於TEDxHousesofParliament）
Onora O'Neill - Philosopher
Baroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life. Full bio
Baroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So I'm going to talk about trust,
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今天我要談的是信任，
00:14
and I'm going to start by reminding you
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在這之前我想要提醒你們
00:16
of the standard views that people have about trust.
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人們對於信任的普遍觀點。
00:20
I think these are so commonplace,
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我認為這些都老生常談的事，
00:22
they've become clichés of our society.
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他們變成了社會上經常討論的陳詞濫調。
00:25
And I think there are three.
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我認為一共有三點。
00:27
One's a claim: there has been a great decline in trust,
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第一是一個主張：人們普遍認為，
00:31
very widely believed.
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信任感驟減。
00:33
The second is an aim: we should have more trust.
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第二個是一個目標：我們需要有更多的信任。
00:38
And the third is a task: we should rebuild trust.
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而第三個是一個任務：我們需要重建信任。
00:43
I think that the claim, the aim and the task
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而我認為，主張也好，目標和任務也好，
00:48
are all misconceived.
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都是誤解。
00:50
So what I'm going to try to tell you today
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所以我今天要跟你們說的
00:52
is a different story about a claim, an aim and a task
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與社會上所公認的主張、目標和任務截然不同，
00:56
which I think give one quite a lot better purchase on the matter.
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而我認為，這是對信任這一話題更好的解讀。
01:01
First the claim: Why do people think trust has declined?
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首先是主張：爲什麽人們普遍認為信任感驟減？
01:06
And if I really think about it on the basis of my own evidence,
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根據我自己的證明出發，
01:09
I don't know the answer.
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我不知道答案。
01:11
I'm inclined to think it may have declined
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我更傾向於去想信任感
01:15
in some activities or some institutions
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可能在某些活動或者組織里驟減
01:18
and it might have grown in others.
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但是在其他活動或組織里增加。
01:20
I don't have an overview.
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我沒有一個總體觀察。
01:22
But, of course, I can look at the opinion polls,
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但，當然，我可以去看民意調查，
01:27
and the opinion polls are supposedly
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而民意調查按推測來說是
01:29
the source of a belief that trust has declined.
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“信任感驟減“這一主張的根源。
01:33
When you actually look at opinion polls across time,
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但當你真的去看從以前到現在的民意調查時，
01:37
there's not much evidence for that.
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並沒有根據去可以去支持這一主張。
01:39
That's to say, the people who were mistrusted
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也就是說，二十年前
01:41
20 years ago,
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被不信任的人群，
01:43
principally journalists and politicians, are still mistrusted.
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主要是記者和政客在現在還是不被信任。
01:47
And the people who were highly trusted 20 years ago
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但二十年前被高度信任的人群
01:51
are still rather highly trusted: judges, nurses.
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現在還是被高度信任，如法官和護士。
01:54
The rest of us are in between,
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其他人的信任感在其間，
01:56
and by the way, the average person in the street
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順便提到一點，在街上的普通人
01:59
is almost exactly midway.
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信任感都在中等程度。
02:01
But is that good evidence?
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這是一個好的證據嗎？
02:03
What opinion polls record is, of course, opinions.
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民意調查記錄的，當然，是意見。
02:08
What else can they record?
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但他們還能記錄其他別的什麽嗎？
02:09
So they're looking at the generic attitudes
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所以他們開始看人們回答
02:13
that people report when you ask them certain questions.
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一些問題時的一半態度。
02:16
Do you trust politicians? Do you trust teachers?
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你們相信政客嗎？你們相信老師嗎？
02:20
Now if somebody said to you, "Do you trust greengrocers?
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如果有一個人問你，”你相信水果蔬菜攤販嗎？
02:24
Do you trust fishmongers?
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你相信魚販嗎？
02:26
Do you trust elementary school teachers?"
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你相信小學老師嗎？”
02:28
you would probably begin by saying, "To do what?"
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你也許會開始問，“爲什麽要信任？”
02:32
And that would be a perfectly sensible response.
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這也許是一個非常合理的回答。
02:35
And you might say, when you understood the answer to that,
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當你明白了問題的答案，你也許會說，
02:40
"Well, I trust some of them, but not others."
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“好吧，我相信他們之中其中一些，但不是其他的。”
02:44
That's a perfectly rational thing.
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那也是非常理智的一件事。
02:46
In short, in our real lives,
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簡要來說，在我們的真實生活中，
02:49
we seek to place trust in a differentiated way.
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我們嘗試去把信任從不同的層面來理解。
02:52
We don't make an assumption that the level of trust
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對於我們信任的程度
02:56
that we will have in every instance of a certain type
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會根據某種類型
02:59
of official or office-holder or type of person
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比如說政府人員或官方人員 而統一
03:03
is going to be uniform.
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不做假設。
03:05
I might, for example, say that I certainly trust
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比方說，我也許會說我一定會信任
03:09
a certain elementary school teacher I know
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一個我所熟知的小學老師
03:11
to teach the reception class to read,
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教授學前班閱讀，
03:14
but in no way to drive the school minibus.
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但是卻絕不能讓他開校車。
03:18
I might, after all, know that she wasn't a good driver.
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我也許知道她並不是一個好的司機。
03:21
I might trust my most loquacious friend
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我也許相信我最多嘴的朋友
03:24
to keep a conversation going
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可以使對話變得順暢
03:26
but not -- but perhaps not to keep a secret.
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但恐怕不能信任他可以保守秘密。
03:36
Simple.
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這是一個簡單的論點。
03:37
So if we've got those evidence in our ordinary lives
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所以如果我們收集這些在我們平常生活中的證據
03:42
of the way that trust is differentiated,
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來證明信任是分不同層面的，
03:44
why do we sort of drop all that intelligence
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那麼爲什麽當我們把信任這一話題抽象意義上想的時候
03:47
when we think about trust more abstractly?
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就丟失我們的智慧了呢？
03:51
I think the polls are very bad guides
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我認為民意調查對於真正存在的信任程度
03:54
to the level of trust that actually exists,
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是非常錯誤的指標
03:57
because they try to obliterate the good judgment
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因為他們以信任作為話題的時候
04:00
that goes into placing trust.
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就丟失掉良好的判斷力。
04:04
Secondly, what about the aim?
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第二，那麼目標呢？
04:06
The aim is to have more trust.
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目標是要有更多的信任。
04:09
Well frankly, I think that's a stupid aim.
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好吧，坦白說，我覺得這是個愚蠢的目標。
04:12
It's not what I would aim at.
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這不會是我的目標。
04:14
I would aim to have more trust in the trustworthy
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我的目標會是對值得信賴的多信任
04:17
but not in the untrustworthy.
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而不是對待不值得信任的胡亂信任。
04:20
In fact, I aim positively to try not to trust the untrustworthy.
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實際上，我的目標是不要去相信那些不值得信任的。
04:27
And I think, of those people who, for example,
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而且我認為，比如，那些人
04:30
placed their savings with the very aptly named Mr. Madoff,
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把他們的存款存在馬多夫（旁氏騙局，美國歷史上最大的欺詐案）名下
04:35
who then made off with them,
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然後馬多夫再把他們騙光，
04:38
and I think of them, and I think, well, yes,
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我認為他們，
04:40
too much trust.
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就太過於信任了。
04:42
More trust is not an intelligent aim in this life.
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更多信任不應該是人生中的一個明智的目標。
04:46
Intelligently placed and intelligently refused trust
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明智的選擇相信和明智的選擇不相信
04:50
is the proper aim.
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才是更合適的目標。
04:52
Well once one says that, one says, yeah, okay,
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曾經有一個人說，
04:56
that means that what matters in the first place
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放在第一位的應該
04:59
is not trust but trustworthiness.
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不是信任而是可信度。
05:02
It's judging how trustworthy people are
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可信度是用來檢測人們在特定的層面
05:05
in particular respects.
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是否可信。
05:07
And I think that judgment requires us to look at three things.
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而我認為判斷要求我們觀察三件事。
05:10
Are they competent? Are they honest? Are they reliable?
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他們是否有能力？他們是否誠實？他們是否可信賴？
05:15
And if we find that a person is competent
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如果我們發現一個人在有關事項里
05:18
in the relevant matters,
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具有能力，
05:19
and reliable and honest,
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可信又誠實，
05:21
we'll have a pretty good reason to trust them,
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我們就有足夠的理由去相信他們，
05:23
because they'll be trustworthy.
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因為他們可信賴。
05:26
But if, on the other hand, they're unreliable, we might not.
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但是如果，換一個角度來說，他們不可信，
我們就也許不會選擇相信了。
我們就也許不會選擇相信了。
05:29
I have friends who are competent and honest,
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我有幾個又有能力又誠實的朋友，
05:32
but I would not trust them to post a letter,
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但是我確不會向他們去張貼一封信，
05:33
because they're forgetful.
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因為他們很健忘。
05:36
I have friends who are very confident
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我有朋友非常的自信
05:39
they can do certain things,
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他們能做某些特定的事情上，
05:41
but I realize that they overestimate their own competence.
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但我也認識到他們高估了自己的能力。
05:45
And I'm very glad to say, I don't think I have many friends
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我非常高興的說，我不認為我有很多
05:48
who are competent and reliable but extremely dishonest.
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有能力、可靠又極其不誠實的朋友。
05:51
(Laughter)
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（笑）
05:52
If so, I haven't yet spotted it.
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即使有的話，我也還沒發現。
05:56
But that's what we're looking for:
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但這就是我們需要的：
05:58
trustworthiness before trust.
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信任之前檢測可信度。
06:00
Trust is the response.
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信任是反應。
06:02
Trustworthiness is what we have to judge.
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可信度是我們需要判斷的。
06:04
And, of course, it's difficult.
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誠然，這是很難去判斷的。
06:06
Across the last few decades, we've tried to construct
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在過去的幾十年，我們嘗試為
06:09
systems of accountability for all sorts of institutions
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各種各樣的機構、專業人員以及政府官員
06:13
and professionals and officials and so on
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建立問責制度
06:15
that will make it easier for us to judge their trustworthiness.
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讓我們更容易去判斷他們是否可信。
06:19
A lot of these systems have the converse effect.
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但很多這樣的體制卻有反效果。
06:23
They don't work as they're supposed to.
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他們並不像預期的那樣有效。
06:24
I remember I was talking with a midwife who said,
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我記得當我跟一個助產師談話的時候說，
06:29
"Well, you see, the problem is it takes longer
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“你看，問題在於文書工作
06:31
to do the paperwork than to deliver the baby."
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比生產的時間還要長。“
06:35
And all over our public life, our institutional life,
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有一個問題遍佈在
06:38
we find that problem,
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我們的所有場所和機構里，
06:40
that the system of accountability
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那就是問責制度
06:43
that is meant to secure trustworthiness
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本應該用來保護可信度
06:45
and evidence of trustworthiness
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和用來做可信度的證據
06:48
is actually doing the opposite.
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但它卻做著相反的事情。
06:50
It is distracting people who have to do difficult tasks,
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它使做複雜工作的人們分心，
06:54
like midwives, from doing them
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比如說助產師，
06:57
by requiring them to tick the boxes, as we say.
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讓他們去勾選表格框框而不是讓他們去助產。
07:00
You can all give your own examples there.
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你也可以舉你自己身上的例子。
07:02
So so much for the aim.
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這就是目標。
07:04
The aim, I think, is more trustworthiness,
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我認為，目標更在於是可信度，
07:07
and that is going to be different
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如果我們嘗試去做一個值得信任的人
07:09
if we are trying to be trustworthy
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更把我們可信度傳遞給別人
07:11
and communicate our trustworthiness to other people,
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那就是另外一件不同的事了。
07:14
and if we are trying to judge whether other people
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如果我們嘗試要去判斷是否他人
07:17
or office-holders or politicians are trustworthy.
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政府官員或政客們是否值得信任，
07:20
It's not easy. It is judgment, and simple reaction,
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那真是不容易。這些是判斷，反應，
07:25
attitudes, don't do adequately here.
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和態度都遠遠不夠的。
07:30
Now thirdly, the task.
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現在我們來談第三點，任務。
07:33
Calling the task rebuilding trust, I think,
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把任務定位重建信任，我認為，
07:37
also gets things backwards.
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同樣是起到了適得其反的功效。
07:38
It suggests that you and I should rebuild trust.
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這個目標建議的是你我都應該重建信任。
07:43
Well, we can do that for ourselves.
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好吧，我們可以為我們自己做這個。
07:46
We can rebuild a bit of trustworthiness.
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我們也可以重建一點的可信度。
07:48
We can do it two people together trying to improve trust.
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我們可以在兩個人之間嘗試去提升信任。
07:52
But trust, in the end, is distinctive
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但是，說到底，信任是獨特的，
07:55
because it's given by other people.
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因為它是由他人給予的。
07:58
You can't rebuild what other people give you.
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你不能重建別人給予你的東西。
08:01
You have to give them the basis
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你必須給他們給予你他們信任
08:04
for giving you their trust.
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的根據。
08:07
So you have to, I think, be trustworthy.
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所以我認為，你必須，值得信任。
08:10
And that, of course, is because you can't fool
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而那個，當然，是你通常不能夠
08:12
all of the people all of the time, usually.
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欺騙所有人，一直欺騙可以得到的。
08:16
But you also have to provide usable evidence
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但你也必須提供有用的證據
08:21
that you are trustworthy.
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來證明你值得信任。
08:22
How to do it?
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要怎麼做呢？
08:24
Well every day, all over the place, it's being done
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每天，每個地方，這都在
08:27
by ordinary people, by officials, by institutions,
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被普通的個人、官員、機構
08:30
quite effectively.
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有效的實踐著。
08:32
Let me give you a simple commercial example.
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讓我給你們一個簡單的商業案例。
08:35
The shop where I buy my socks says I may take them back,
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我買襪子的商店跟我說，我可以退還這些商品，
08:39
and they don't ask any questions.
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他們不會詢問原因。
08:41
They take them back and give me the money
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他們把襪子收回並且退還給我錢
08:43
or give me the pair of socks of the color I wanted.
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或者給我一雙我想要顏色的襪子。
08:46
That's super. I trust them
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這很好，所以我相信他們。
08:48
because they have made themselves vulnerable to me.
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因為他們使自己放在一個弱勢地位。
08:51
I think there's a big lesson in that.
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我認為其中有大道理。
08:53
If you make yourself vulnerable to the other party,
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如果你讓自己相對於另一方弱勢，
08:56
then that is very good evidence that you are trustworthy
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那麼你就有足夠的證據來證明你是可信任的
09:00
and you have confidence in what you are saying.
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而且你對自己所說的有信心。
09:03
So in the end, I think what we are aiming for
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所以，最後，我認為要發現我們所要追求的
09:06
is not very difficult to discern.
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並不十分困難。
09:09
It is relationships in which people are trustworthy
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那就是可信任人們之間的關係，
09:13
and can judge when and how the other person
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并可以判斷何時以及如何
09:17
is trustworthy.
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他人是可信的。
09:18
So the moral of all this is,
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這其中的寓意在於，
09:22
we need to think much less about trust,
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我們需要少想一些信任，
09:25
let alone about attitudes of trust
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更不要去想對待信任這一話題的態度、
09:29
detected or mis-detected by opinion polls,
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檢測或誤解民意調查，
09:33
much more about being trustworthy,
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而更需要想是如何成為可信的人，
09:35
and how you give people adequate, useful
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以及你如何給予人們足夠的、有用的
09:39
and simple evidence that you're trustworthy.
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和簡單的證據來證明你是可信的。
09:42
Thanks.
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謝謝。
09:43
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Onora O'Neill - PhilosopherBaroness Onora O'Neill is a philosopher who focuses on international justice and the roles of trust and accountability in public life.
Why you should listen
Philosopher Baroness Onora O'Neill thinks we are perverting trust. Considering how much stock we put into trust and assessing trusting attitudes, it's something we don't really understand, argues O'Neill. What we really need, she says, is not trust -- but trustworthiness. In addition to her study of how we (wrongly) approach trust and accountability in civic life, O'Neill also focuses on bioethics and international justice.
O'Neill's most recent book, co-written with Neil Manson is Rethinking Informed Consent in Bioethics, published in 2007. She was Principal of Newnham College, a college of the University of Cambridge, from 1992 to 2006, and President of the British Academy from 2005 to 2009. In early 2013 O'Neill was confirmed as the new Chair of England's Equality and Human Rights Commission. She is a crossbench member of the House of Lords.
Onora O'Neill | Speaker | TED.com