EG 2008
Marc Pachter: The art of the interview
Mark Pačer: Umetnost intervjuisanja
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Mark Pačer (Marc Pachter) je uživo intrevjuisao neke od najintrigantnijih ličnosti novije američke istorije, kao deo izuzetnih serija napravljenih za Galeriju Nacionalnih Portreta za Smitsonijal muzej. On otkrvia tajnu odličnih intervjua i deli sjajne priče iz razgovora sa Stivom Martinom, Kler But Lus i drugima.
Marc Pachter - Cultural Historian
Marc Pachter has spent his career curating and creating intimate portraits of the lives of others. Full bio
Marc Pachter has spent his career curating and creating intimate portraits of the lives of others. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
The National Portrait Gallery is the place dedicated
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Nacionalna Galerija Portreta je mesto posvećeno
00:19
to presenting great American lives,
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predstavljanju sjajnih američkih života,
00:21
amazing people.
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sjajnih ljudi.
00:23
And that's what it's about.
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I zapravo je o tome.
00:25
We use portraiture as a way to deliver those lives, but that's it.
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Mi koristimo portretisanje da predstavimo te živote, ali to je to.
00:29
And so I'm not going to talk about the painted portrait today.
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Tako da ja neću govoriti o naslikanom portretu danas.
00:33
I'm going to talk about a program I started there,
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Govoriću vam o programu koji sam tamo započeo,
00:36
which, from my point of view, is the proudest thing I did.
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koji je, sa moje tačke gledišta, stvar na koju sam najviše ponosan.
00:41
I started to worry about the fact
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Počeo sam da brinem oko činjenice
00:45
that a lot of people don't get their portraits painted anymore,
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da se portreti mnogih ljudi više ne slikaju,
00:48
and they're amazing people,
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a oni su sjajni ljudi,
00:50
and we want to deliver them to future generations.
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i želimo da ih predstavimo budućim generacijama.
00:53
So, how do we do that?
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I kako to da uradimo?
00:55
And so I came up with the idea of the living self-portrait series.
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Tako sam došao na ideju o serijama živih autoportreta.
00:57
And the living self-portrait series was the idea of basically
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A suština tih serija
01:01
my being a brush in the hand
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je da ja budem četkica u rukama
01:03
of amazing people who would come and I would interview.
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neverovatnih ljudi, koji bi došli da ih intervjuišem.
01:06
And so what I'm going to do is, not so much give you
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Tako da vam ja neću dati
01:09
the great hits of that program,
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sjajne tačke ovog programa,
01:11
as to give you this whole notion
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koliko ću vam dati čitavu ideju toga
01:13
of how you encounter people in that kind of situation,
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kako se sresti sa ljudima u takvoj situaciji,
01:16
what you try to find out about them,
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šta pokušavate da saznate o njima
01:18
and when people deliver and when they don't and why.
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i kada se ljudi otvore, kada ne i zašto.
01:23
Now, I had two preconditions.
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Imao sam dva preduslova.
01:26
One was that they be American.
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Prvi, da budu Amerikanci.
01:28
That's just because, in the nature of the National Portrait Gallery,
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To samo zato, što je u prirodi Nacionalne Galerije Portreta,
01:31
it's created to look at American lives.
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da gleda američke živote.
01:34
That was easy, but then I made the decision,
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To je bilo lako, ali sam onda doneo odluku,
01:37
maybe arbitrary,
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možda proizvoljno,
01:39
that they needed to be people of a certain age,
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da ljudi moraju da budu u određenim godinama,
01:43
which at that point, when I created this program,
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što je u tom trenutku, kada sam osmislio ovaj program,
01:45
seemed really old.
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izgledalo prilično staro.
01:47
Sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties.
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Šezdesete, sedamdesete, osamdesete i devedesete.
01:50
For obvious reasons, it doesn't seem that old anymore to me.
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Iz očiglednog razloga, to za mene više ne izgleda toliko staro.
01:52
And why did I do that?
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A zašto sam to učinio?
01:54
Well, for one thing, we're a youth-obsessed culture.
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Pa, za početak, mi smo kultura koja je opsednuta mladošću.
01:56
And I thought really what we need is an elders program
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I mislio sam da nam je zaista potreban program za starije
02:00
to just sit at the feet of amazing people and hear them talk.
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da jednostavno sedimo pored sjajnih ljudi i da ih slušamo kako govore.
02:04
But the second part of it -- and the older I get,
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Ali drugi deo toga - što sam stariji,
02:08
the more convinced I am that that's true.
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ubeđeniji sam da je to istina.
02:11
It's amazing what people will say when they know
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Zapanjujuće je šta će ljudi reći kada znaju
02:14
how the story turned out.
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kako se priča završila.
02:16
That's the one advantage that older people have.
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To je jedna prednost koju stariji ljudi imaju.
02:20
Well, they have other, little bit of advantage,
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Pa, imaju drugu, malu prednost,
02:22
but they also have some disadvantages,
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ali takođe imaju i neke nedostatke,
02:24
but the one thing they or we have is that
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ali jedna stvar koju oni ili mi imamo je da
02:26
we've reached the point in life
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smo dostigli tačku u životu
02:28
where we know how the story turned out.
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gde znamo kako se priča završila.
02:31
So, we can then go back in our lives,
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Dakle, možemo da se vratimo kroz život,
02:33
if we've got an interviewer who gets that,
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ako imamo intervjuera koji to shvata,
02:36
and begin to reflect on how we got there.
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i da počnemo da se prisećamo kako smo stigli ovde.
02:40
All of those accidents that wound up
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Svi ti događaji koji su
02:43
creating the life narrative that we inherited.
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stvorili životnu priču koju smo nasledili.
02:46
So, I thought okay, now,
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Pa sam pomislio, okej,
02:48
what is it going to take to make this work?
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šta je potrebno da ovo uspe?
02:51
There are many kinds of interviews. We know them.
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Postoje mnoge vrste intervjua. Znamo ih.
02:53
There are the journalist interviews,
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Postoje novinarski intervjui,
02:55
which are the interrogation that is expected.
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koji su ispitivanja koja se očekuju.
02:57
This is somewhat against resistance
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Ovo je nekako protiv otpora
02:59
and caginess on the part of the interviewee.
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i rešetki koje intervjuisani ima.
03:03
Then there's the celebrity interview,
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Onda su tu intervjui poznatih,
03:05
where it's more important who's asking the question than who answers.
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gde je mnogo važnije ko postavlja pitanje, nego ko odgovara.
03:08
That's Barbara Walters and others like that, and we like that.
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To su Barbara Volters i njoj slični i nama se to dopada.
03:12
That's Frost-Nixon, where Frost seems to be as important
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To je Frost-Nikson, gde je Frost podjednako važan
03:15
as Nixon in that process.
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kao i Nikson, u tom procesu.
03:17
Fair enough.
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Pošteno.
03:19
But I wanted interviews that were different.
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Ali ja sam hteo intervjue koji su drugačiji.
03:21
I wanted to be, as I later thought of it, empathic,
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Hteo sam da budem, kako sam kasnije shvatio, empatičan,
03:28
which is to say, to feel what they wanted to say
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što znači, da osećam šta su oni hteli da kažu
03:33
and to be an agent of their self-revelation.
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i da budem agent njihovog ličnog otkrivanja.
03:37
By the way, this was always done in public.
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Usput, ovo je uvek rađeno u javnosti.
03:39
This was not an oral history program.
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Ovo nije bio usmeni istorijski program.
03:41
This was all about 300 people sitting at the feet of this individual,
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Ovde se radilo o 300 ljudi koji sede u prisustvu te osobe
03:46
and having me be the brush in their self-portrait.
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i sa mnom kao četkicom njihovog autiportrteta.
03:50
Now, it turns out that I was pretty good at that.
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Sad, ispada da sam bio prilično dobar u tome.
03:53
I didn't know it coming into it.
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Nisam bio svestan toga.
03:55
And the only reason I really know that
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I jedini razlog zbog kojeg jesam,
03:57
is because of one interview I did with Senator William Fulbright,
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jeste jedan intervju koji sam uradio sa senatorom Vilijamom Fulbrajtom,
04:02
and that was six months after he'd had a stroke.
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i to šest meseci nakon njegovog šloga.
04:06
And he had never appeared in public since that point.
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I posle toga, više se nikada nije pojavio u javnosti.
04:08
This was not a devastating stroke,
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Ovo nije bio razarajući udar,
04:10
but it did affect his speaking and so forth.
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ali jeste oštetio njegovu sposobnost govora i tako dalje.
04:13
And I thought it was worth a chance,
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I mislio sam da vredi pokušati,
04:15
he thought it was worth a chance,
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kao i on,
04:17
and so we got up on the stage,
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tako da smo se popeli na binu,
04:19
and we had an hour conversation about his life,
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i razgovarali oko sat vremena o njegovom životu,
04:22
and after that a woman rushed up to me,
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posle čega mi je jedna žena prišla,
04:25
essentially did,
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zaista,
04:27
and she said, "Where did you train as a doctor?"
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i rekla, "Gde ste se obučavali za doktora?"
04:30
And I said, "I have no training as a doctor. I never claimed that."
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A ja sam rekao, "Nemam nikakvo lekarsko obrazovanje, nikada to nisam tvrdio."
04:34
And she said, "Well, something very weird was happening.
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Na šta je ona rekla, "Pa, nešto veoma čudno se dešavalo.
04:38
When he started a sentence, particularly
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Kada bi on započeo rečenicu, naročito
04:40
in the early parts of the interview,
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pri početku intervjua,
04:43
and paused, you gave him the word,
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i zastao, vi ste mu dali reč,
04:45
the bridge to get to the end of the sentence,
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most da dođe do kraja rečenice,
04:48
and by the end of it,
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i do kraja,
04:50
he was speaking complete sentences on his own."
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on je sam izgovarao čitave rečenice."
04:53
I didn't know what was going on,
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Nisam znao o čemu se tu radi,
04:55
but I was so part of the process of getting that out.
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ali sam bio deo procesa ispoljavanja toga.
04:58
So I thought, okay, fine, I've got empathy,
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Pa sam pomislio, okej, dobro, imam empatiju,
05:02
or empathy, at any rate,
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ili je empatija, u bilo kom obliku
05:04
is what's critical to this kind of interview.
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nužna za ovu vrstu intervjua.
05:06
But then I began to think of other things.
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Ali onda sam počeo da razmišljam o drugim stvarima.
05:08
Who makes a great interview in this context?
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Ko u ovom kontekstu pravi odlične intervjue?
05:12
It had nothing to do with their intellect,
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To nema nikakve veze sa njihovim intelektom,
05:14
the quality of their intellect.
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kvalitetom istog.
05:16
Some of them were very brilliant,
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Neki od njih su bili sjajni,
05:18
some of them were,
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neki od njih,
05:20
you know, ordinary people who would never claim to be intellectuals,
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znate, obični ljudi, koji nikada ne bi tvrdili da su intelektualci,
05:23
but it was never about that.
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ali se nikada nije o tome radilo.
05:26
It was about their energy.
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Bila je u pitanju njihova energija.
05:29
It's energy that creates extraordinary interviews
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Energija je ta koja stvara izuzetne intervjue
05:32
and extraordinary lives.
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i izuzetne živote.
05:34
I'm convinced of it.
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Ubeđen sam u to.
05:36
And it had nothing to do with the energy of being young.
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I nema nikakve veze sa energijom mladosti.
05:39
These were people through their 90s.
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Ovo su ljudi u svojim devedesetim.
05:41
In fact, the first person I interviewed
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Ustvari, prva osoba koju sam intervjuisao
05:43
was George Abbott, who was 97,
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jeste Džordž Abot, koji je imao 97,
05:46
and Abbott was filled with the life force --
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a on je bio ispunjen životnom snagom -
05:49
I guess that's the way I think about it -- filled with it.
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mislim da je to način na koji razmišljam o tome - ispunjen njome.
05:51
And so he filled the room,
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I tako je on ispunio sobu,
05:53
and we had an extraordinary conversation.
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i imali smo sjajan razgovor.
05:56
He was supposed to be the toughest interview that anybody would ever do
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On je navodno bio najteža osoba za intervju, bilo kome,
05:59
because he was famous for being silent,
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jer je bio poznat po svom ćutanju,
06:03
for never ever saying anything
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po tome što nikada nije govorio
06:05
except maybe a word or two.
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osim možda reč ili dve.
06:07
And, in fact, he did wind up opening up --
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I ustvari, na kraju se jeste otvorio -
06:09
by the way, his energy is evidenced in other ways.
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usput, njegova energija se vidi u drugim stvarima.
06:13
He subsequently got married again at 102,
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On se na kraju ponovo oženio sa svoje 102 godine
06:16
so he, you know, he had a lot of the life force in him.
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tako da je, znate, imao je mnogo životne energije u sebi.
06:20
But after the interview, I got a call,
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Ali nakon intervjua, dobio sam poziv,
06:22
very gruff voice, from a woman.
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vrlo grub glas, ženski,
06:26
I didn't know who she was,
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nisam znao ko je ona.
06:28
and she said, "Did you get George Abbott to talk?"
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Rekla je, "Da li ste vi naterali Džordža Abota da progovori?"
06:32
And I said, "Yeah. Apparently I did."
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Rekao sam, "Da. Izgleda da jesam."
06:35
And she said, "I'm his old girlfriend, Maureen Stapleton,
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Rekla je, "Ja sam njegova stara devojka, Morin Stejplton,
06:39
and I could never do it."
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i nikada nisam uspela u tome."
06:41
And then she made me go up with the tape of it
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I naterala me je da dođem sa tim snimkom
06:44
and prove that George Abbott actually could talk.
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i dokažem da Džordž Abot zapravo može da govori.
06:47
So, you know, you want energy,
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Dakle, znate, želite energiju,
06:49
you want the life force,
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želite životnu snagu,
06:51
but you really want them also to think
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ali isto tako želite da oni misle
06:55
that they have a story worth sharing.
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kako imaju priču koju vredi podeliti.
06:59
The worst interviews that you can ever have
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Najgori su oni intervjui
07:02
are with people who are modest.
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sa skromnim ljudima.
07:05
Never ever get up on a stage with somebody who's modest,
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Nikada, ali nikada se nemojte popeti na scenu sa nekim ko je skroman,
07:08
because all of these people have been assembled
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jer su svi ti ljudi navikli
07:11
to listen to them, and they sit there and they say,
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da ih ljudi slušaju i sede tako i kažu,
07:13
"Aw, shucks, it was an accident."
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"O, dođavola, to je bila slučajnost."
07:15
There's nothing that ever happens that justifies
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Ništa što se dogodi, ne opravdava
07:19
people taking good hours of the day to be with them.
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činjenicu da ljudi sa njima provode sate.
07:23
The worst interview I ever did: William L. Shirer.
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Najgori intervju koji sam vodio: Vilijam L. Širer.
07:26
The journalist who did "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."
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Novinar koji je uradio "Uspon i pad Trećeg Rajha."
07:31
This guy had met Hitler and Gandhi within six months,
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Ovaj momak je upoznao Hitlera i Gandija u roku od šest meseci,
07:35
and every time I'd ask him about it, he'd say, "Oh, I just happened to be there.
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i svaki put kada sam ga pitao o tome, rekao bi, "Oh, pa ja sam igrom slučaja bio tamo.
07:38
Didn't matter." Whatever.
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Nije važno." Kako god.
07:41
Awful.
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Užasno.
07:43
I never would ever agree to interview a modest person.
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Nikada ne bih pristao da intervjuišem skromnu osobu.
07:46
They have to think that they did something
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Moraju da misle da su uradili nešto
07:48
and that they want to share it with you.
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i da to žele da podele sa vama.
07:50
But it comes down, in the end,
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Ali na kraju se svodi na pitanje
07:54
to how do you get through all the barriers we have.
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kako proći kroz sve barijere koje imamo.
08:01
All of us are public and private beings,
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Svi mi smo privatna i javna bića,
08:04
and if all you're going to get from the interviewee is their public self,
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i ako je sve što ćete dobiti od sagovornika njegovo javno ja,
08:10
there's no point in it.
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onda u tome nema smisla.
08:12
It's pre-programmed. It's infomercial,
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To je pre-programirano. To je info-reklama,
08:15
and we all have infomercials about our lives.
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a svi imamo info-reklame o svojim životima.
08:18
We know the great lines, we know the great moments,
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Znamo sjajne rečenice, sjajne momente,
08:21
we know what we're not going to share,
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znamo šta nećemo podeliti,
08:23
and the point of this was not to embarrass anybody.
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a smisao ovoga nije da osramotiš nekoga.
08:26
This wasn't -- and some of you will remember
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Ovo nije - i neki od vas će se setiti
08:28
Mike Wallace's old interviews --
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starih intervjua Majk Volisa -
08:30
tough, aggressive and so forth. They have their place.
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čvrstih, agresivnih i tako dalje. Oni imaju svoje mesto.
08:33
I was trying to get them to say what they probably wanted to say,
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Pokušao sam da ih "nateram" da kažu ono što su verovatno želeli da kažu,
08:37
to break out of their own cocoon of the public self,
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da izađu iz čaure javnog ja,
08:44
and the more public they had been,
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i što su više bili izloženi javnosti,
08:46
the more entrenched that person, that outer person was.
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to više je ta druga, spoljna, osoba bila utemeljena.
08:51
And let me tell you at once the worse moment and the best moment
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I da vam odmah kažem, najbolji i najgori momenat
08:54
that happened in this interview series.
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koji se u ovim serijama dogodio.
08:56
It all has to do with that shell that most of us have,
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Sve ima veze sa tim oklopom koji većina od nas ima,
09:01
and particularly certain people.
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a naročito neki ljudi.
09:04
There's an extraordinary woman named Clare Boothe Luce.
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Postoji ta izuzetna žena Kler But Lus.
09:07
It'll be your generational determinant
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To koliko vam njeno ime znači,
09:10
as to whether her name means much to you.
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zavisi od toga kojoj generaciji pripadate.
09:13
She did so much. She was a playwright.
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Uradila je toliko toga. Pisala je pozorišne predstave.
09:18
She did an extraordinary play called "The Women."
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Uradila je jednu sjajnu predstavu "Žene".
09:21
She was a congresswoman
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Bila je članica kongresa
09:23
when there weren't very many congresswomen.
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kada članica nije bilo mnogo.
09:26
She was editor of Vanity Fair,
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Bila je urednica "Veniti Fera",
09:28
one of the great phenomenal women of her day.
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jedna od sjajnih veličanstvenih žena svog vremena.
09:32
And, incidentally, I call her
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I uzgred, zovem je
09:35
the Eleanor Roosevelt of the Right.
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Elenor Ruzvelt desnice.
09:38
She was sort of adored on the Right
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Bila je na neki način obožavana na denoj strani
09:40
the way Eleanor Roosevelt was on the Left.
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koliko Elenor Ruzvelt na levoj.
09:43
And, in fact, when we did the interview --
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I ustvari, kada smo uradili intervju,
09:46
I did the living self-portrait with her --
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uradio sam živi samoportret sa njom,
09:48
there were three former directors of the CIA
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bila su tu tri bivša direktora iz CIA,
09:50
basically sitting at her feet,
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bukvalno sedeći pored njenih nogu,
09:52
just enjoying her presence.
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samo uživajući u njenom prisustvu.
09:55
And I thought, this is going to be a piece of cake,
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I pomislio sam, ovo će biti lako,
09:57
because I always have preliminary talks with these people
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jer uvek imam preliminarne razgovore sa ovim ljudima
10:01
for just maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
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nekih 10 do 15 minuta.
10:04
We never talk before that because if you talk before,
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Nikada pre toga ne razgovaramo, jer ako to učinite,
10:07
you don't get it on the stage.
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ne ispričate to na bini.
10:09
So she and I had a delightful conversation.
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Tako smo nas dvoje imali divan razgovor.
10:13
We were on the stage and then --
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Bili smo na bini i onda -
10:16
by the way, spectacular.
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spektakularno.
10:18
It was all part of Clare Boothe Luce's look.
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Sve je to zasluga izgleda Kler But Lus.
10:21
She was in a great evening gown.
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Bila je u sjajnoj večernjoj haljini.
10:24
She was 80, almost that day of the interview,
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Imala je 80, skoro na dan intervjua,
10:27
and there she was and there I was,
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i tu je bila ona, tu sam bio ja,
10:29
and I just proceeded into the questions.
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i samo sam nastavio sa pitanjima.
10:31
And she stonewalled me. It was unbelievable.
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I skamenila me. Bilo je neverovatno.
10:36
Anything that I would ask, she would turn around, dismiss,
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Sve što bih pitao, ona bi preokrenula, odbacila,
10:41
and I was basically up there -- any of you
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i praktično sam bio tamo - bilo ko od vas
10:43
in the moderate-to-full entertainment world
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iz umerenog do potpuno zabavljačkog sveta
10:45
know what it is to die onstage.
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zna šta znači umreti na sceni.
10:48
And I was dying. She was absolutely not giving me a thing.
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A ja sam umirao. Apsolutno mi ništa nije davala.
10:53
And I began to wonder what was going on,
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I počeo sam da se pitam šta se dešava,
10:55
and you think while you talk,
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i mislite dok razgovarate,
10:57
and basically, I thought, I got it.
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i pomislio sam, imam ga.
11:00
When we were alone, I was her audience.
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Kada smo bili sami, ja sam bio njena publika.
11:04
Now I'm her competitor for the audience.
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Sada sam njena konkurencija za dobijanje pažnje.
11:06
That's the problem here, and she's fighting me for that,
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To je ovde problem i ona se bori sa mnom za to,
11:10
and so then I asked her a question --
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tako da sam je upitao -
11:12
I didn't know how I was going to get out of it --
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nisam znao kako ću se izvući iz toga -
11:14
I asked her a question about her days as a playwright,
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upitao sam je o njenim danima pisca predstava,
11:20
and again, characteristically,
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i opet, uobičajeno,
11:22
instead of saying, "Oh yes, I was a playwright, and this is what blah blah blah,"
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umesto da kaže, "Da, pisala sam predstave i bla bla bla bla",
11:25
she said, "Oh, playwright. Everybody knows I was a playwright.
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rekla je, "oh, pisanje predstava. Svi znaju da sam to radila.
11:28
Most people think that I was an actress. I was never an actress."
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Većina misli da sam bila glumica. Nikada nisam bila glumica."
11:32
But I hadn't asked that, and then she went off on a tear,
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Ali nisam je to pitao, a onda se rasplakala,
11:36
and she said, "Oh, well, there was that one time that I was an actress.
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i rekla, "E da, ima taj jedan trenutak kada jesam bila glumica.
11:39
It was for a charity in Connecticut when I was a congresswoman,
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Bilo je u humanitarne svrhe u Konektikatu kada sam bila u kongresu,
11:42
and I got up there," and she went on and on, "And then I got on the stage."
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i popela sam se", i onda je nastavila, "I onda sam se popela na binu."
11:45
And then she turned to me and said,
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Onda se okrenula ka meni i rekla,
11:47
"And you know what those young actors did?
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"I znate šta su ti mladi glumci uradili?
11:50
They upstaged me." And she said, "Do you know what that is?"
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Potisnuli su me." I rekla je, "Da li znate šta je to?"
11:52
Just withering in her contempt.
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venući u svom preziru.
11:54
And I said, "I'm learning."
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I rekao sam, "Učim."
11:56
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
11:58
And she looked at me, and it was like the successful arm-wrestle,
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Pogledala me je i bilo je poput uspešnog obaranja ruku,
12:03
and then, after that, she delivered an extraordinary account
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i posle toga, dala je toliko toga sjajnog
12:07
of what her life really was like.
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o tome kakav je zapravo njen život bio.
12:09
I have to end that one. This is my tribute to Clare Boothe Luce.
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Moram to da zavšim. Ovo je moja oda Kler But Lus.
12:12
Again, a remarkable person.
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Ponovo, izuzetna osoba.
12:14
I'm not politically attracted to her, but through her life force,
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Ne privlači me politički, ali privukla me je
12:17
I'm attracted to her.
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svojom životnom snagom.
12:20
And the way she died -- she had, toward the end, a brain tumor.
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I način na koji je umrla - pred kraj je imala tumor na mozgu.
12:25
That's probably as terrible a way to die as you can imagine,
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To je verovatno najstrašniji način da se umre koji možete zamisliti,
12:28
and very few of us were invited to a dinner party.
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vrlo malo nas je pozvano na večeru.
12:34
And she was in horrible pain.
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I bila je u neverovatnim bolovima.
12:36
We all knew that.
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Svi smo to znali.
12:38
She stayed in her room.
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Ostala je u svojoj sobi.
12:41
Everybody came. The butler passed around canapes.
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Svi su došli. Batler je raznosio kanapee.
12:43
The usual sort of thing.
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Uobičajene stvari.
12:46
Then at a certain moment, the door opened
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Onda, u jednom trenutku, vrata su se otvorila
12:49
and she walked out perfectly dressed, completely composed.
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i ona je izašla savršeno obučena, potpuno usklađena.
12:53
The public self, the beauty, the intellect,
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Javno ja, lepota, intelekt,
12:57
and she walked around and talked to every person there
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i hodala je okolo i razgovarala sa svakom osobom
13:01
and then went back into the room and was never seen again.
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i onda se vratila u sobu i nikada više nije viđena.
13:04
She wanted the control of her final moment, and she did it amazingly.
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Htela je da kontroliše svoj poslednji trenutak i uradila je to sjajno.
13:10
Now, there are other ways that you get somebody to open up,
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Sada, postoje drugi načini na koje postižete da se drugi otvore,
13:14
and this is just a brief reference.
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a ovo je samo kratak opis.
13:18
It wasn't this arm-wrestle,
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NIje bilo kao obaranje ruku,
13:20
but it was a little surprising for the person involved.
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ali jeste bilo malo iznenađujuće za osobu o kojoj je reč.
13:22
I interviewed Steve Martin. It wasn't all that long ago.
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Intervjuisao sam Stiva Martina. Ne tako davno.
13:26
And we were sitting there,
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I sedeli smo
13:28
and almost toward the beginning of the interview,
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i pred sam početak intervjua,
13:31
I turned to him and I said, "Steve," or "Mr. Martin,
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okrenuo sam se ka njemu i rekao, "Stiv" ili "Gospodine Martin,
13:36
it is said that all comedians have unhappy childhoods.
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rečeno je da svi komičari imaju nesrećno detinjstvo.
13:42
Was yours unhappy?"
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Da li je i vaše bilo?"
13:44
And he looked at me, you know, as if to say,
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I pogledao me je, znate, kao da će reći,
13:47
"This is how you're going to start this thing, right off?"
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"Ovako ćeš početi ovu stvar, odmah?"
13:50
And then he turned to me, not stupidly,
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I onda se okrenuo ka meni, ne glupo,
13:52
and he said, "What was your childhood like?"
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i rekao, "Kakvo je bilo vaše detinjstvo?"
13:56
And I said -- these are all arm wrestles, but they're affectionate --
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I rekao sam - sve ovo je obaranje ruku, ali nežno -
13:59
and I said, "My father was loving and supportive,
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i rekao, "Moj otac je bio pun ljubavi i podržavajući,
14:02
which is why I'm not funny."
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zbog čega nisam duhovit."
14:04
(Laughter)
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(smeh)
14:06
And he looked at me, and then we heard the big sad story.
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Pogledao me je i onda smo čuli veliku tužnu priču.
14:10
His father was an SOB,
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Njegov otac je bio kučkin sin,
14:12
and, in fact, he was another comedian with an unhappy childhood,
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i zapravo, on je bio komičar sa nesrećnim detinjstvom,
14:16
but then we were off and running.
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ali onda smo krenuli.
14:19
So the question is:
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Dakle, pitanje je:
14:20
What is the key that's going to allow this to proceed?
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Šta je ključ koji će omogućiti nastavak ovoga?
14:23
Now, these are arm wrestle questions,
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Znači, ovo su pitanja sa kojima se borimo,
14:25
but I want to tell you about questions
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ali želim da vam predstavim pitanja
14:28
that are more related to empathy
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koja su više u vezi sa empatijom
14:31
and that really, very often, are the questions
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a to zapravo, vrlo često, jesu pitanja
14:34
that people have been waiting their whole lives to be asked.
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na koja ljudi čekaju čitav život da im se postave.
14:37
And I'll just give you two examples of this because of the time constraints.
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I zbog vemenskog ograničenja ću vam dati samo dva primera ovoga.
14:41
One was an interview I did with one of the great American biographers.
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Jedno je intervju sa jednim sjajnim američkim biografom.
14:47
Again, some of you will know him, most of you won't, Dumas Malone.
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Opet, neki od vas su čuli za njega, večina vas nije, Duma Maloun.
14:49
He did a five-volume biography of Thomas Jefferson,
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On je napisao biografiju Tomasa Džefersona u pet tomova,
14:53
spent virtually his whole life with Thomas Jefferson,
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skoro čitav svoj život je proveo sa Tomasom Džefersonom,
14:58
and by the way, at one point I asked him,
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i usput, u jednom trenutku sam ga upitao,
15:00
"Would you like to have met him?"
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"Da li biste voleli da ste ga upoznali?"
15:02
And he said, "Well, of course,
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Odgovorio je, "Pa, naravno,
15:04
but actually, I know him better than anyone who ever met him,
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ali zapravo, znam ga bolje od svih koji su ga ikada upoznali,
15:07
because I got to read all of his letters."
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jer sam imao priliku da pročitam sva njegova pisma."
15:09
So, he was very satisfied with the kind of relationship they had over 50 years.
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Dakle, bio je izuzetno zadovoljan odnosom koji su tokom 50 godina imali.
15:15
And I asked him one question.
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Pitao sam ga sledeće.
15:18
I said, "Did Jefferson ever disappoint you?"
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"Da li vas je Džeferson ikada razočarao?"
15:22
And here is this man who had given his whole life to uncovering Jefferson
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I ovde je čovek koji je ceo svoj život posvetio razotkrivanju Džefersona
15:27
and connecting with him,
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i povezivanjem sa njim,
15:29
and he said, "Well ..." -- I'm going to do a bad southern accent.
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i rekao je, "Pa..." - loše ću imitirati južnjački akcenat.
15:34
Dumas Malone was from Mississippi originally.
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Duma Maloun je bio iz Misisipija.
15:37
But he said, "Well," he said, "I'm afraid so."
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Ali rekao je, "Pa", rekako je, "Bojim se da da."
15:41
He said, "You know, I've read everything,
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Reče, "Znate, sve sam pročitao,
15:44
and sometimes Mr. Jefferson would smooth the truth a bit."
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i ponekada bi gospodin Džeferson ispeglao istinu pomalo."
15:52
And he basically was saying that this was a man
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I zapravo je govorio kako je to bio čovek
15:55
who lied more than he wished he had,
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koji je lagao više nego što je želeo,
15:58
because he saw the letters.
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jer je video pisma.
16:00
He said, "But I understand that." He said, "I understand that."
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Rekao je, "Ali razumem to." Rekao je, "Razumem to."
16:04
He said, "We southerners do like a smooth surface,
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Dodao je, "Mi južnjaci volimo glatku površinu,
16:09
so that there were times when he just didn't want the confrontation."
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tako da su bila vremena kada on nije hteo konflikt."
16:13
And he said, "Now, John Adams was too honest."
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Još je rekao, "E sad, Džon Adams je bio previše iskren."
16:17
And he started to talk about that, and later on he invited me to his house,
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I počeo je da govori o tome, a kasnije me je pozvao svojoj kući,
16:20
and I met his wife who was from Massachusetts,
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gde sam upoznao njegovu ženu, koja je bila iz Masačusetsa,
16:22
and he and she had exactly the relationship
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a njih dvoje su imali isti odnos
16:25
of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.
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kao Tomas Džeferson i Džon Adams.
16:28
She was the New Englander and abrasive,
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Ona je bila iz Nove Engleske i odsečna,
16:30
and he was this courtly fellow.
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a on je bio otmen momak.
16:33
But really the most important question I ever asked,
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Ali zaista najvažnije pitanje koje sam ikada postavio,
16:36
and most of the times when I talk about it,
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i većinu vremena kada o tome govorim,
16:39
people kind of suck in their breath at my audacity, or cruelty,
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ljudima na trenutak zastane dah zbog moje smelosti ili okrutnosti,
16:44
but I promise you it was the right question.
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ali, obećavam vam, bilo je to pravo pitanje.
16:48
This was to Agnes de Mille.
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Postavio sam ga Agnes De Mil.
16:51
Agnes de Mille is one of the great choreographers in our history.
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Agnes De Mil je jedna od najvećih koreografa u našoj istoriji.
16:55
She basically created the dances in "Oklahoma,"
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Ona je praktično stvorila plesne tačke u "Oklahomi",
16:59
transforming the American theater.
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transformišući američko pozorište.
17:01
An amazing woman.
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Sjajna žena.
17:03
At the time that I proposed to her that --
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U trenutku kada sam joj predložio -
17:08
by the way, I would have proposed to her; she was extraordinary --
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usput, zaprosio bih je, bila je neverovatna -
17:10
but proposed to her that she come on.
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ali sam joj predložio da dođe.
17:12
She said, "Come to my apartment."
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Rekla je, "Dođi do mog stana."
17:14
She lived in New York.
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Živela je u Njujorku.
17:16
"Come to my apartment and we'll talk for those 15 minutes,
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"Dođi do mog stana i razgovaraćemo tih 15 minuta,
17:20
and then we'll decide whether we proceed."
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a onda ćemo odlučiti da li ćemo nastaviti."
17:22
And so I showed up in this dark, rambling New York apartment,
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I tako sam se pojavio u tom tamnom, nesređenom njujorškom stanu,
17:27
and she called out to me, and she was in bed.
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pozvala me je, bila je u krevetu.
17:30
I had known that she had had a stroke,
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Znao sam da je imala moždani udar,
17:32
and that was some 10 years before.
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a to je bilo nekih 10 godina ranije.
17:34
And so she spent almost all of her life in bed,
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Tako da je veći deo svog vremena provela u krevetu,
17:39
but -- I speak of the life force --
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ali - govorim o životnoj snazi -
17:41
her hair was askew.
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njena kosa je stajala nakrivo.
17:43
She wasn't about to make up for this occasion.
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Nije se sređivala za ovu priliku.
17:46
And she was sitting there surrounded by books,
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I sedela je tamo okružena knjigama
17:49
and her most interesting possession she felt at that moment
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i njeno najinteresantnije vlasništvo u tom trenutku
17:53
was her will, which she had by her side.
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je bio njen testament, koji je imala pored sebe.
17:59
She wasn't unhappy about this. She was resigned.
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Nije bila nesrećna zbog toga. Bila je spokojna.
18:03
She said, "I keep this will by my bed, memento mori,
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Rekla je, "Držim ovaj testament pored kreveta, kao podsetnik,
18:09
and I change it all the time
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i svaki put ga menjam
18:12
just because I want to."
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samo zato što želim."
18:14
And she was loving the prospect of death as much as she had loved life.
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I ona je volela mogućnost umiranja isto koliko je volela i život.
18:19
I thought, this is somebody I've got to get in this series.
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Pomislio sam, ovo je neko koga moram ubaciti u ove serije.
18:22
She agreed.
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Složila se.
18:24
She came on. Of course she was wheelchaired on.
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Došla je. Naravno da je bila u kolicima.
18:27
Half of her body was stricken, the other half not.
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Polovina njenog tela je obolela, polovina nije.
18:30
She was, of course, done up for the occasion,
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Bila je, naravno, doterana za ovu priliku,
18:33
but this was a woman in great physical distress.
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ali ovo je bila žena sa velikom fizičkom nemoći.
18:37
And we had a conversation,
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I vodili smo razgovor,
18:40
and then I asked her this unthinkable question.
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i onda sam joj postavio to nezamislivo pitanje.
18:43
I said, "Was it a problem for you in your life that you were not beautiful?"
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Rekao sam, "Da li vam je činjenica da niste lepi, predstavljala problem u životu?"
18:52
And the audience just -- you know,
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I publika je samo - znate,
18:55
they're always on the side of the interviewee,
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uvek su na strani intervjuisanog,
18:58
and they felt that this was a kind of assault,
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i mislili su da je ovo neka vrsta uvrede,
19:01
but this was the question she had
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ali to je pitanje koje je ona
19:03
wanted somebody to ask her whole life.
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čitavog života želela da joj neko postavi.
19:06
And she began to talk about her childhood, when she was beautiful,
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I počela je da govori o svom detinjstvu, kada jeste bila lepa,
19:11
and she literally turned -- here she was, in this broken body --
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i potpuno se okrenula - tu je bila, u tom slomljenom telu -
19:14
and she turned to the audience and
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i okrenula se publici i
19:17
described herself as the fair demoiselle
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opisala sebe kao lepuškastu mladu devojku
19:19
with her red hair and her light steps and so forth,
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sa svojom crvenom kosom i laganim korakom i tako dalje,
19:25
and then she said, "And then puberty hit."
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a onda je rekla, "A onda me udario pubertet."
19:28
And she began to talk about things that had happened
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I počela je da govori o stvarima koje su se dogodile
19:30
to her body and her face,
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njenom telu i licu,
19:32
and how she could no longer count on her beauty,
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i kako više nije mogla da računa na svoju lepotu,
19:36
and her family then treated her like the ugly sister of the beautiful one
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i njena porodica ju je onda tretirala kao ružnu sestru lepe sestre
19:43
for whom all the ballet lessons were given.
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za koju su držani svi časovi baleta.
19:45
And she had to go along just to be with her sister for company,
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I morala je da ide, da pravi društvo svojoj sestri
19:50
and in that process, she made a number of decisions.
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i za to vreme, odlučila je nekoliko stvari.
19:53
First of all, was that dance, even though
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Najpre, ples, iako
19:55
it hadn't been offered to her, was her life.
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joj nije bio ponuđen, bio je njen život.
19:57
And secondly, she had better be,
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I drugo, bolje da bude,
19:59
although she did dance for a while, a choreographer
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iako je plesala neko vreme, koreograf
20:01
because then her looks didn't matter.
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jer u tom slučaju, njen izgled nije bitan.
20:04
But she was thrilled to get that out as a real, real fact in her life.
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Ali bila je uzbuđena da to iznese kao stvarnu činjenicu iz svog života.
20:11
It was an amazing privilege to do this series.
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Bila je neverovatna privilegija raditi ove serije.
20:16
There were other moments like that, very few moments of silence.
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Bilo je još trenutaka poput ovog, vrlo malo trenutaka tišine.
20:22
The key point was empathy
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Suština je bila empatija,
20:25
because everybody in their lives
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jer svako u svom životu
20:29
is really waiting for people to ask them questions,
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zapravo čeka da mu ljudi postave pitanje,
20:33
so that they can be truthful about who they are
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kako bi bili iskreni u vezi sa tim ko su
20:35
and how they became what they are,
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i kako su postali ono što jesu,
20:38
and I commend that to you, even if you're not doing interviews.
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i ja vam to poveravam, čak i ako ne radite intervjue.
20:42
Just be that way with your friends
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Jednostavno budite takvi prema svojim prijateljima,
20:44
and particularly the older members of your family.
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a naročito prema starijim članovima vaše porodice.
20:47
Thank you very much.
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Mnogo vam hvala.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Marc Pachter - Cultural HistorianMarc Pachter has spent his career curating and creating intimate portraits of the lives of others.
Why you should listen
Marc Pachter is a man of many talents, and it seems he's used every one of them during his 33 years at the Smithsonian Institution. Although he has devoted most of his career to one organization, with the single goal of capturing the lives of great Americans, to do so he has played multiple roles. He began his time at the Smithsonian just after a five-year stint at Harvard, where he earned a master's in history and taught Colonial history. Since that time he has served as acting director of the National Museum of American History, chaired the celebration of the Smithsonian's 150th anniversary, created the first national portrait competition, organized the first national conference on biography and created an interview program called "Living Self-Portaits" which earned him the title of Smithsonian "master interviewer."
In his final years at the Smithsonian, Pachter was director of the National Portrait Gallery Director, retiring in 2007 to work on his writing. Pachter has authored two books, Telling Lives: The Biographer's Art and A Gallery of Presidents, and is editor of several more. In addition, he holds an editorial role at the peer-reviewed journal Biography and was senior cultural advisor to the United States Information Agency for some years.
Marc Pachter | Speaker | TED.com