EG 2008
Marc Pachter: The art of the interview
Marc Pachter: 訪問的藝術
Filmed:
Readability: 3.2
881,663 views
Marc Pachter 曾為Smithsonian國家人物肖像藝廊進行過一系列令人激賞的訪談，訪問了好幾位近代美國史上最有趣的傑出人士。他透露了訪問成功的秘訣，也分享了他訪問Steve Martin、Clare Booth Luce等人的趣事。
Marc Pachter - Cultural Historian
Marc Pachter has spent his career curating and creating intimate portraits of the lives of others. Full bio
Marc Pachter has spent his career curating and creating intimate portraits of the lives of others. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
The National Portrait Gallery is the place dedicated
0
0
4000
國家肖像藝廊是一個
00:19
to presenting great American lives,
1
4000
2000
展示大美國生活和
00:21
amazing people.
2
6000
2000
有趣人物的地方。
00:23
And that's what it's about.
3
8000
2000
就是關於這些。
00:25
We use portraiture as a way to deliver those lives, but that's it.
4
10000
4000
我們用肖像圖，來塑像作為傳遞這個人物生命的手法，但僅是如此。
00:29
And so I'm not going to talk about the painted portrait today.
5
14000
4000
今天我不打算談那些畫作。
00:33
I'm going to talk about a program I started there,
6
18000
3000
我今天準備去談談我正在開展的計劃，
00:36
which, from my point of view, is the proudest thing I did.
7
21000
5000
這個計劃，從我的角度，我認為是我所做過最值得驕傲的事。
00:41
I started to worry about the fact
8
26000
4000
我開始擔心，事實上，
00:45
that a lot of people don't get their portraits painted anymore,
9
30000
3000
有許多人並不再製作自己的肖像畫，
00:48
and they're amazing people,
10
33000
2000
而他們是很有意思的人，
00:50
and we want to deliver them to future generations.
11
35000
3000
我們又想把他們承傳到下一代。
00:53
So, how do we do that?
12
38000
2000
那麼，我們可以做些什麼?
00:55
And so I came up with the idea of the living self-portrait series.
13
40000
2000
於是，我開始構想一個活著的自我塑像系列。
00:57
And the living self-portrait series was the idea of basically
14
42000
4000
這個活著的自我塑像系列基本是
01:01
my being a brush in the hand
15
46000
2000
由我作為畫筆的把他們描畫出來，
01:03
of amazing people who would come and I would interview.
16
48000
3000
找來那些有意思的人，讓我來訪談。
01:06
And so what I'm going to do is, not so much give you
17
51000
3000
我想跟你說的，不是這個節目
01:09
the great hits of that program,
18
54000
2000
能大熱起來的原因，
01:11
as to give you this whole notion
19
56000
2000
而是給你整個概念。
01:13
of how you encounter people in that kind of situation,
20
58000
3000
就是你怎樣在特定的處境之下遇見這個人，
01:16
what you try to find out about them,
21
61000
2000
而你盡力的去發掘關於他們的東西，
01:18
and when people deliver and when they don't and why.
22
63000
4000
那些他們想告訴你的，或是那些他們不想告訴你的，以及為什麼。
01:23
Now, I had two preconditions.
23
68000
3000
對於訪問對象，我是有兩個條件的。
01:26
One was that they be American.
24
71000
2000
第一，他們需要是美國人。
01:28
That's just because, in the nature of the National Portrait Gallery,
25
73000
3000
這只是因為, 基本上, 這是國家肖像藝廊，
01:31
it's created to look at American lives.
26
76000
3000
這個是用來探討美國的生活。
01:34
That was easy, but then I made the decision,
27
79000
3000
這個容易, 但我也做了一個決定,
01:37
maybe arbitrary,
28
82000
2000
或是隨便的想法,
01:39
that they needed to be people of a certain age,
29
84000
4000
他們需要是一個到了某個年紀的人,
01:43
which at that point, when I created this program,
30
88000
2000
就在這裡, 我創造了這個節目,
01:45
seemed really old.
31
90000
2000
看來很老的。
01:47
Sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties.
32
92000
3000
六十歲, 七十歲, 八十歲甚至是九十歲。
01:50
For obvious reasons, it doesn't seem that old anymore to me.
33
95000
2000
很明顯的, 其實對我來說, 這些人並不是很老。
01:52
And why did I do that?
34
97000
2000
我為什麼要這樣做?
01:54
Well, for one thing, we're a youth-obsessed culture.
35
99000
2000
好, 是因為, 我們活在一個執著於年青的文化裡,
01:56
And I thought really what we need is an elders program
36
101000
4000
所以我認為我們需要一個給長者的節目,
02:00
to just sit at the feet of amazing people and hear them talk.
37
105000
4000
只是坐在大人物的腳下, 聽聽他們怎樣說。
02:04
But the second part of it -- and the older I get,
38
109000
4000
但第二部份, 當我愈來愈老的時候,
02:08
the more convinced I am that that's true.
39
113000
3000
我愈是認為,
02:11
It's amazing what people will say when they know
40
116000
3000
當他們能說出自己的故事
02:14
how the story turned out.
41
119000
2000
是怎樣發展出來的, 這是有趣的。
02:16
That's the one advantage that older people have.
42
121000
4000
這也是老人家的其中一個優勢,
02:20
Well, they have other, little bit of advantage,
43
125000
2000
同時, 他們也有一點其他的優勢,
02:22
but they also have some disadvantages,
44
127000
2000
但他們也有點劣勢，
02:24
but the one thing they or we have is that
45
129000
2000
但重點是, 當他們或我們
02:26
we've reached the point in life
46
131000
2000
到達了人生的某個階段,
02:28
where we know how the story turned out.
47
133000
3000
我們知道自己的故事怎樣發生。
02:31
So, we can then go back in our lives,
48
136000
2000
於是, 我們可以回到自己的生活,
02:33
if we've got an interviewer who gets that,
49
138000
3000
如果剛好有一個訪談員能明白,
02:36
and begin to reflect on how we got there.
50
141000
4000
並且能反映出我們怎樣會變成這樣。
02:40
All of those accidents that wound up
51
145000
3000
總結過去所有的發生過的偶然
02:43
creating the life narrative that we inherited.
52
148000
3000
創造了我們對生命的描述。
02:46
So, I thought okay, now,
53
151000
2000
所以我覺得這個構思可以了,
02:48
what is it going to take to make this work?
54
153000
3000
我可以做些什麼讓它變得可行?
02:51
There are many kinds of interviews. We know them.
55
156000
2000
我們都知道這裡有許多不同的訪談,
02:53
There are the journalist interviews,
56
158000
2000
有新聞性的訪談,
02:55
which are the interrogation that is expected.
57
160000
2000
會冀望是尖銳的訪問形式。
02:57
This is somewhat against resistance
58
162000
2000
就是想著怎樣突破被訪者
02:59
and caginess on the part of the interviewee.
59
164000
4000
的抗拒和戒備。
03:03
Then there's the celebrity interview,
60
168000
2000
接著, 也有些名人的訪談,
03:05
where it's more important who's asking the question than who answers.
61
170000
3000
誰人做訪問者去問問題, 比起誰人去答問題更重要。
03:08
That's Barbara Walters and others like that, and we like that.
62
173000
4000
就好像 Barbara Walters 和其他的, 我們都喜歡的。
03:12
That's Frost-Nixon, where Frost seems to be as important
63
177000
3000
有Frost 跟Nixon 的訪問, 過程中好像Frost 比起 Nixon
03:15
as Nixon in that process.
64
180000
2000
更重要。
03:17
Fair enough.
65
182000
2000
這就够了。
03:19
But I wanted interviews that were different.
66
184000
2000
但我想有一個跟這些不一樣的訪談。
03:21
I wanted to be, as I later thought of it, empathic,
67
186000
7000
我想的是, 我後來覺得, 應該是有同理心吧,
03:28
which is to say, to feel what they wanted to say
68
193000
5000
意思是, 能感受到他們想說的東西
03:33
and to be an agent of their self-revelation.
69
198000
4000
作為他們自我表達的代理人。
03:37
By the way, this was always done in public.
70
202000
2000
這好像經常在公眾節目中發生,
03:39
This was not an oral history program.
71
204000
2000
但這不是口述歷史節目,
03:41
This was all about 300 people sitting at the feet of this individual,
72
206000
5000
這是大約有三百人, 坐在這個人的腳下,
03:46
and having me be the brush in their self-portrait.
73
211000
4000
用我作為這幅自我肖像的畫筆,
03:50
Now, it turns out that I was pretty good at that.
74
215000
3000
現在, 我的技術已經變得了頗為精湛,
03:53
I didn't know it coming into it.
75
218000
2000
我也不知道怎樣變成的。
03:55
And the only reason I really know that
76
220000
2000
我只知道唯一的原由
03:57
is because of one interview I did with Senator William Fulbright,
77
222000
5000
是因為, 有一次我跟William Fullbright 參議員做了一個訪問,
04:02
and that was six months after he'd had a stroke.
78
227000
4000
這是他中風後六個月的事。
04:06
And he had never appeared in public since that point.
79
231000
2000
他自從中風後一直沒有公開露面,
04:08
This was not a devastating stroke,
80
233000
2000
這不是一個嚴重的中風,
04:10
but it did affect his speaking and so forth.
81
235000
3000
但卻影響了他的說話能力,
04:13
And I thought it was worth a chance,
82
238000
2000
但我卻認為值得一試,
04:15
he thought it was worth a chance,
83
240000
2000
他也認為值得一試,
04:17
and so we got up on the stage,
84
242000
2000
所以我們一起走上台。
04:19
and we had an hour conversation about his life,
85
244000
3000
我們大概談他的生活談了一小時,
04:22
and after that a woman rushed up to me,
86
247000
3000
接著, 有一個女人走過來,
04:25
essentially did,
87
250000
2000
就是這樣的,
04:27
and she said, "Where did you train as a doctor?"
88
252000
3000
她說: 『你在那裡被訓練成當醫生?』
04:30
And I said, "I have no training as a doctor. I never claimed that."
89
255000
4000
我說: 『我從來沒有受過醫生的訓練, 我也沒有這樣自稱過。』
04:34
And she said, "Well, something very weird was happening.
90
259000
4000
她說: 『但有些很奇怪的東西發生了。
04:38
When he started a sentence, particularly
91
263000
2000
當他開始一句說話時, 尤其是
04:40
in the early parts of the interview,
92
265000
3000
在早段的訪問之中,
04:43
and paused, you gave him the word,
93
268000
2000
他停下來, 你就給他一個字,
04:45
the bridge to get to the end of the sentence,
94
270000
3000
讓他連結句子的尾段,
04:48
and by the end of it,
95
273000
2000
最後,
04:50
he was speaking complete sentences on his own."
96
275000
3000
他可以自己完整的說出了整句句子。』
04:53
I didn't know what was going on,
97
278000
2000
我並不知道發生什麼事,
04:55
but I was so part of the process of getting that out.
98
280000
3000
因為我投入了這個過程。
04:58
So I thought, okay, fine, I've got empathy,
99
283000
4000
於是, 我想, 好的, 我是能够體諒他的,
05:02
or empathy, at any rate,
100
287000
2000
或是同情, 在不同的層次裡,
05:04
is what's critical to this kind of interview.
101
289000
2000
這是這類訪問最重要的東西。
05:06
But then I began to think of other things.
102
291000
2000
跟著, 我開始想著其他事,
05:08
Who makes a great interview in this context?
103
293000
4000
在這樣的背景之中, 誰可以做偉大的訪談?
05:12
It had nothing to do with their intellect,
104
297000
2000
這大概跟智力沒有什麼關係,
05:14
the quality of their intellect.
105
299000
2000
也跟智力的質素沒有什麼關係,
05:16
Some of them were very brilliant,
106
301000
2000
有些人非常出色,
05:18
some of them were,
107
303000
2000
有些人,
05:20
you know, ordinary people who would never claim to be intellectuals,
108
305000
3000
你知呢, 平常人很少會自稱是智者,
05:23
but it was never about that.
109
308000
3000
這不是智力的問題,
05:26
It was about their energy.
110
311000
3000
這是有關能量的。
05:29
It's energy that creates extraordinary interviews
111
314000
3000
是那種能創造非一般訪談
05:32
and extraordinary lives.
112
317000
2000
以及非一般生命的能量,
05:34
I'm convinced of it.
113
319000
2000
我是認同的。
05:36
And it had nothing to do with the energy of being young.
114
321000
3000
這跟年輕的能量沒有關係,
05:39
These were people through their 90s.
115
324000
2000
有些人活到了九十歲。
05:41
In fact, the first person I interviewed
116
326000
2000
事實上, 我訪問的第一個人
05:43
was George Abbott, who was 97,
117
328000
3000
George Abbott, 他已經九十七歲了，
05:46
and Abbott was filled with the life force --
118
331000
3000
但他仍然充滿生命的力量
05:49
I guess that's the way I think about it -- filled with it.
119
334000
2000
我就是這樣想著, 充滿力量。
05:51
And so he filled the room,
120
336000
2000
而他也讓整個房間充滿了力量,
05:53
and we had an extraordinary conversation.
121
338000
3000
於是, 我們有了很不一樣的對談。
05:56
He was supposed to be the toughest interview that anybody would ever do
122
341000
3000
他原本是被認為最難纏的訪問對象
05:59
because he was famous for being silent,
123
344000
4000
因為他最出名的是保持沈默,
06:03
for never ever saying anything
124
348000
2000
他可以一直不說話
06:05
except maybe a word or two.
125
350000
2000
除了可能是一個字, 兩個字。
06:07
And, in fact, he did wind up opening up --
126
352000
2000
但事實上, 他最後竟然可以開放自己 --
06:09
by the way, his energy is evidenced in other ways.
127
354000
4000
其實, 從其他的方面, 我們可以窺見他的能量。
06:13
He subsequently got married again at 102,
128
358000
3000
他接著在102歲高齡結婚,
06:16
so he, you know, he had a lot of the life force in him.
129
361000
4000
所以, 你也會知道, 他其實是有許多生命的力量。
06:20
But after the interview, I got a call,
130
365000
2000
但這個訪問 之後, 我收到一個電話,
06:22
very gruff voice, from a woman.
131
367000
4000
一把十分粗暴的聲音, 是一個女人來的,
06:26
I didn't know who she was,
132
371000
2000
我並不知道她是誰,
06:28
and she said, "Did you get George Abbott to talk?"
133
373000
4000
她說: 『你讓George Abbott說話?』
06:32
And I said, "Yeah. Apparently I did."
134
377000
3000
我說: 『對, 明顯的, 我有。』
06:35
And she said, "I'm his old girlfriend, Maureen Stapleton,
135
380000
4000
她說: 『我是他的舊女友, Maureen Stapleton，
06:39
and I could never do it."
136
384000
2000
但我永遠都做不到。』
06:41
And then she made me go up with the tape of it
137
386000
3000
她後來讓我聽了一個錄音帶
06:44
and prove that George Abbott actually could talk.
138
389000
3000
証明George Abbott 的確是能說話的。
06:47
So, you know, you want energy,
139
392000
2000
所以, 你需要能量,
06:49
you want the life force,
140
394000
2000
你需要生命的力量,
06:51
but you really want them also to think
141
396000
4000
但你更需要他們同時也認為
06:55
that they have a story worth sharing.
142
400000
4000
自己有一個值得分享的故事。
06:59
The worst interviews that you can ever have
143
404000
3000
我做過最差的訪問
07:02
are with people who are modest.
144
407000
3000
是跟那些謙虛的人做的訪問。
07:05
Never ever get up on a stage with somebody who's modest,
145
410000
3000
永遠不要跟一個謙虛的人走上講台
07:08
because all of these people have been assembled
146
413000
3000
因為當所有人聚集在那裡
07:11
to listen to them, and they sit there and they say,
147
416000
2000
準備去聽他們的故事時, 他們坐在那裡說,
07:13
"Aw, shucks, it was an accident."
148
418000
2000
『啊, 沒什麼的, 這只是一個意外。』
07:15
There's nothing that ever happens that justifies
149
420000
4000
這些沒有什麼的事情, 其實並不值得
07:19
people taking good hours of the day to be with them.
150
424000
4000
別人用上那天最好的時間在他們身上。
07:23
The worst interview I ever did: William L. Shirer.
151
428000
3000
我做過更壞的訪問: WIlliam L. Shirer
07:26
The journalist who did "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."
152
431000
5000
那個做了『第三帝國的起落』的記者
07:31
This guy had met Hitler and Gandhi within six months,
153
436000
4000
他曾經在六個月之內遇見過希特勒和甘地,
07:35
and every time I'd ask him about it, he'd say, "Oh, I just happened to be there.
154
440000
3000
每次我問有關這個部份, 他都會說: 『啊, 我只有剛好就在那裡
07:38
Didn't matter." Whatever.
155
443000
3000
沒有什麼的.....』諸如此類...
07:41
Awful.
156
446000
2000
可怕!
07:43
I never would ever agree to interview a modest person.
157
448000
3000
我永遠不會跟那些謙虛平庸的人做訪問。
07:46
They have to think that they did something
158
451000
2000
他們需要覺得自己做了一些
07:48
and that they want to share it with you.
159
453000
2000
想跟別人分享的東西。
07:50
But it comes down, in the end,
160
455000
4000
然後, 接下來
07:54
to how do you get through all the barriers we have.
161
459000
7000
就是怎樣去處理我們面前的障礙。
08:01
All of us are public and private beings,
162
466000
3000
我們都是活在私人和公眾的空間之中,
08:04
and if all you're going to get from the interviewee is their public self,
163
469000
6000
如果你只想讓別人看見被訪者的公眾形象,
08:10
there's no point in it.
164
475000
2000
這是沒有意思的。
08:12
It's pre-programmed. It's infomercial,
165
477000
3000
因為這是預定的。這是代言的廣告,
08:15
and we all have infomercials about our lives.
166
480000
3000
我們都會有自己人生的代言廣告,
08:18
We know the great lines, we know the great moments,
167
483000
3000
我們會知道那些偉大的台詞, 那些感動的時刻,
08:21
we know what we're not going to share,
168
486000
2000
我們也知道有些什麼是不會分享的,
08:23
and the point of this was not to embarrass anybody.
169
488000
3000
以及為了不讓別人尷尬而點到即止。
08:26
This wasn't -- and some of you will remember
170
491000
2000
但這不是----也許有些人都會記得
08:28
Mike Wallace's old interviews --
171
493000
2000
Mike Wallace' 的舊訪問---
08:30
tough, aggressive and so forth. They have their place.
172
495000
3000
強硬, 進取等等。這些訪談也有一定的地位。
08:33
I was trying to get them to say what they probably wanted to say,
173
498000
4000
我就儘量去讓他們說一些也許他們想說的東西，
08:37
to break out of their own cocoon of the public self,
174
502000
7000
去突破他們那些公眾認知形象背後的包袱，
08:44
and the more public they had been,
175
509000
2000
如果他們愈是公眾人物，
08:46
the more entrenched that person, that outer person was.
176
511000
5000
這種公眾的束縳便愈是根深蒂固。
08:51
And let me tell you at once the worse moment and the best moment
177
516000
3000
讓我告訴你, 在整個訪問系列裡
08:54
that happened in this interview series.
178
519000
2000
我最壞和最好的時刻。
08:56
It all has to do with that shell that most of us have,
179
521000
5000
這些都跟我們的自我保護外殼有關的，
09:01
and particularly certain people.
180
526000
3000
尤其是一些特定的人。
09:04
There's an extraordinary woman named Clare Boothe Luce.
181
529000
3000
這裡有個很不一般的女人名叫 Clare Boothe Luce。
09:07
It'll be your generational determinant
182
532000
3000
那就說出你生於什麼年代
09:10
as to whether her name means much to you.
183
535000
3000
如果她的名字對你來說是很熟悉的。
09:13
She did so much. She was a playwright.
184
538000
5000
她做了許多事, 她是一位劇作家。
09:18
She did an extraordinary play called "The Women."
185
543000
3000
她曾寫下一個十分出色的劇作, 名叫《女人們》
09:21
She was a congresswoman
186
546000
2000
她也是一位眾議員
09:23
when there weren't very many congresswomen.
187
548000
3000
當年並不很多女性的眾議員。
09:26
She was editor of Vanity Fair,
188
551000
2000
她是雜誌Vanity Fair 的編輯,
09:28
one of the great phenomenal women of her day.
189
553000
4000
她是一位在她的年代裡十分經典的女性。
09:32
And, incidentally, I call her
190
557000
3000
有一次, 偶然的, 我叫她做
09:35
the Eleanor Roosevelt of the Right.
191
560000
3000
右派的羅斯福夫人。
09:38
She was sort of adored on the Right
192
563000
2000
她是被右派所推崇
09:40
the way Eleanor Roosevelt was on the Left.
193
565000
3000
就好像羅斯福夫人被左派所推崇的一樣。
09:43
And, in fact, when we did the interview --
194
568000
3000
事實上, 我們做了這個訪談,
09:46
I did the living self-portrait with her --
195
571000
2000
我也給她做了活著的自我肖像,
09:48
there were three former directors of the CIA
196
573000
2000
當時三個前中央情報局的指揮官
09:50
basically sitting at her feet,
197
575000
2000
坐在她的腳下,
09:52
just enjoying her presence.
198
577000
3000
在欣賞她的訪問。
09:55
And I thought, this is going to be a piece of cake,
199
580000
2000
我在想, 這應該一切都會順利得易如反掌,
09:57
because I always have preliminary talks with these people
200
582000
4000
因為, 我通常都會跟受訪者有些熱身的閒聊
10:01
for just maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
201
586000
3000
大概是十至十五分鐘。
10:04
We never talk before that because if you talk before,
202
589000
3000
我們並沒有說到正題, 因為如果你預先談過了,
10:07
you don't get it on the stage.
203
592000
2000
你便有不能把正題再次放在台上了。
10:09
So she and I had a delightful conversation.
204
594000
4000
我跟她有一段愉悅的對話。
10:13
We were on the stage and then --
205
598000
3000
接著我們走上台前--
10:16
by the way, spectacular.
206
601000
2000
是那種, 很壯觀的樣子。
10:18
It was all part of Clare Boothe Luce's look.
207
603000
3000
因為這是Clare Boothe Luce 看起來的模樣。
10:21
She was in a great evening gown.
208
606000
3000
她穿著一襲晚裝。
10:24
She was 80, almost that day of the interview,
209
609000
3000
在訪問的那天, 她差不多八十歲了
10:27
and there she was and there I was,
210
612000
2000
她在這裡, 我在那裡,
10:29
and I just proceeded into the questions.
211
614000
2000
我只是開始去問問題。
10:31
And she stonewalled me. It was unbelievable.
212
616000
5000
她竟然在戒備著我, 這簡直是難以置信!
10:36
Anything that I would ask, she would turn around, dismiss,
213
621000
5000
我問的任何問題, 她都會迴避, 然後略過,
10:41
and I was basically up there -- any of you
214
626000
2000
而我就在那裡, 好像大家一樣
10:43
in the moderate-to-full entertainment world
215
628000
2000
在這個娛樂至上的世界
10:45
know what it is to die onstage.
216
630000
3000
知道什麼是死在台上。
10:48
And I was dying. She was absolutely not giving me a thing.
217
633000
5000
我已經快要死去, 但她仍是決絕的不給我任何東西。
10:53
And I began to wonder what was going on,
218
638000
2000
我開始去思考究竟發生了什麼事,
10:55
and you think while you talk,
219
640000
2000
一直在說, 一直在想,
10:57
and basically, I thought, I got it.
220
642000
3000
後來,我想, 我知道了。
11:00
When we were alone, I was her audience.
221
645000
4000
當只有我們的時候, 我是她的聽眾。
11:04
Now I'm her competitor for the audience.
222
649000
2000
但在台上, 我便和她在爭奪聽眾。
11:06
That's the problem here, and she's fighting me for that,
223
651000
4000
這就是問題, 她在跟我爭奪,
11:10
and so then I asked her a question --
224
655000
2000
跟著, 我問了她一個問題--
11:12
I didn't know how I was going to get out of it --
225
657000
2000
我其實並不知道我該怎樣從這處境之中逃脫--
11:14
I asked her a question about her days as a playwright,
226
659000
6000
我問了她一個她過去做劇作家的問題,
11:20
and again, characteristically,
227
665000
2000
再次的,很經典的,
11:22
instead of saying, "Oh yes, I was a playwright, and this is what blah blah blah,"
228
667000
3000
她沒有說: 『啊對, 我是劇作家........什麼..... 什麼......』
11:25
she said, "Oh, playwright. Everybody knows I was a playwright.
229
670000
3000
她卻說: 『啊, 劇作家, 每個人都知道我是劇作家,
11:28
Most people think that I was an actress. I was never an actress."
230
673000
4000
很多人都以為我是演員, 我從來沒做過演員。』
11:32
But I hadn't asked that, and then she went off on a tear,
231
677000
4000
但我還沒有問及, 她卻竟然流下淚來,
11:36
and she said, "Oh, well, there was that one time that I was an actress.
232
681000
3000
她說, 『對, 曾經有一次, 我是一個演員,
11:39
It was for a charity in Connecticut when I was a congresswoman,
233
684000
3000
那次只是為Connecticut 做一個慈善的演員, 我那時還是眾議員,
11:42
and I got up there," and she went on and on, "And then I got on the stage."
234
687000
3000
我上了台』, 她繼續說: 『 我上了台。』
11:45
And then she turned to me and said,
235
690000
2000
接著, 她轉向對我說,
11:47
"And you know what those young actors did?
236
692000
3000
『你知道當時那些年青演員做些什麼?
11:50
They upstaged me." And she said, "Do you know what that is?"
237
695000
2000
他們把我的風頭都搶走了。』然後她說: 『你知道什麼是搶風頭嗎?』
11:52
Just withering in her contempt.
238
697000
2000
我在她的輕蔑之中低下頭來。
11:54
And I said, "I'm learning."
239
699000
2000
我說: 『我正在學習。』
11:56
(Laughter)
240
701000
2000
笑聲
11:58
And she looked at me, and it was like the successful arm-wrestle,
241
703000
5000
她看一看我, 然後她看來好像在我們的角力之中勝出了,
12:03
and then, after that, she delivered an extraordinary account
242
708000
4000
接著, 她說出了一段
12:07
of what her life really was like.
243
712000
2000
她偉大的生命故事的演辭。
12:09
I have to end that one. This is my tribute to Clare Boothe Luce.
244
714000
3000
我就說到此, 這是我對Clare Boothe Luce的感謝辭。
12:12
Again, a remarkable person.
245
717000
2000
再次的, 她是一個很出色的人物,
12:14
I'm not politically attracted to her, but through her life force,
246
719000
3000
我不是因為政治的立場而被她吸引, 我是因為她的生命力,
12:17
I'm attracted to her.
247
722000
3000
而我被她吸引。
12:20
And the way she died -- she had, toward the end, a brain tumor.
248
725000
5000
而她當時正邁向死亡---她當時正患腦癌的末期。
12:25
That's probably as terrible a way to die as you can imagine,
249
730000
3000
在你可以想像的情況下, 這可能是很可怖的一種死亡方法,
12:28
and very few of us were invited to a dinner party.
250
733000
6000
我們被邀請到一個晚飯派對。
12:34
And she was in horrible pain.
251
739000
2000
而她卻在很可怕的痛症之中。
12:36
We all knew that.
252
741000
2000
我們都是知道。
12:38
She stayed in her room.
253
743000
3000
她留在她的房間內。
12:41
Everybody came. The butler passed around canapes.
254
746000
2000
每一個人來到, 男僕人在給我們夾心麵包,
12:43
The usual sort of thing.
255
748000
3000
很平常的事。
12:46
Then at a certain moment, the door opened
256
751000
3000
直到某個時間, 門開了
12:49
and she walked out perfectly dressed, completely composed.
257
754000
4000
她穿著十分講究整齊的出現了。
12:53
The public self, the beauty, the intellect,
258
758000
4000
那個公眾形象的她，美人，智者，
12:57
and she walked around and talked to every person there
259
762000
4000
她四處走動去跟每個人談著
13:01
and then went back into the room and was never seen again.
260
766000
3000
跟著回到她的房間, 然後往後沒有再見到她。
13:04
She wanted the control of her final moment, and she did it amazingly.
261
769000
6000
她想去控制她最後的時刻, 她也做得十分令人驚訝。
13:10
Now, there are other ways that you get somebody to open up,
262
775000
4000
現在, 其實也有另外的方法來讓別人開放的表白自己,
13:14
and this is just a brief reference.
263
779000
4000
這只是一個簡單的參考。
13:18
It wasn't this arm-wrestle,
264
783000
2000
這不是臂力較勁,
13:20
but it was a little surprising for the person involved.
265
785000
2000
但也會讓有關的人感到點點驚奇。
13:22
I interviewed Steve Martin. It wasn't all that long ago.
266
787000
4000
在不久之前, 我訪問了史提芬 馬田 (Steve Martin).
13:26
And we were sitting there,
267
791000
2000
我們坐在那裡,
13:28
and almost toward the beginning of the interview,
268
793000
3000
在快要到訪問的開始的時候,
13:31
I turned to him and I said, "Steve," or "Mr. Martin,
269
796000
5000
我轉頭跟他說: 『史提芬，或者，馬田先生，
13:36
it is said that all comedians have unhappy childhoods.
270
801000
6000
有人說過, 所有的笑匠, 都曾有一個不快樂的童年。
13:42
Was yours unhappy?"
271
807000
2000
你的童年不快樂嗎?』
13:44
And he looked at me, you know, as if to say,
272
809000
3000
他看著我, 你知道嗎，好像在說：
13:47
"This is how you're going to start this thing, right off?"
273
812000
3000
『你就這樣開始這個訪問, 是嗎?』
13:50
And then he turned to me, not stupidly,
274
815000
2000
接著, 他轉向我, 並不愚蠢的,
13:52
and he said, "What was your childhood like?"
275
817000
4000
他說: 『那你的童年又如何?』
13:56
And I said -- these are all arm wrestles, but they're affectionate --
276
821000
3000
我會說---這些全是較勁的, 但仍然很有風度--
13:59
and I said, "My father was loving and supportive,
277
824000
3000
我說:『 我的父親對我很好, 也很支持我,
14:02
which is why I'm not funny."
278
827000
2000
所以我並不有趣。』
14:04
(Laughter)
279
829000
2000
笑聲
14:06
And he looked at me, and then we heard the big sad story.
280
831000
4000
他看著我, 跟著我們聽到了一個大悲慘故事。
14:10
His father was an SOB,
281
835000
2000
他的父親是一個狗娘養的,
14:12
and, in fact, he was another comedian with an unhappy childhood,
282
837000
4000
事實上, 他的父親也是另一個有著悲慘童年的笑匠。
14:16
but then we were off and running.
283
841000
3000
就在這, 我們的對話起跑了。
14:19
So the question is:
284
844000
1000
所以問題是:
14:20
What is the key that's going to allow this to proceed?
285
845000
3000
在讓這些過程開展之中, 究竟有什麼的關鍵?
14:23
Now, these are arm wrestle questions,
286
848000
2000
看來, 好像是一些有較勁的問題,
14:25
but I want to tell you about questions
287
850000
3000
但我想告訴你問題
14:28
that are more related to empathy
288
853000
3000
其實這些問題跟同理心更有關係
14:31
and that really, very often, are the questions
289
856000
3000
但它們，通常，是那些
14:34
that people have been waiting their whole lives to be asked.
290
859000
3000
人們用了一生的時間來等待被問的那些問題。
14:37
And I'll just give you two examples of this because of the time constraints.
291
862000
4000
因為時間的關係,我給你們兩個例子。
14:41
One was an interview I did with one of the great American biographers.
292
866000
6000
其中一個是, 我曾訪問美國一位出名的傳記作者。
14:47
Again, some of you will know him, most of you won't, Dumas Malone.
293
872000
2000
再次的, 也許有些人會認識他, 大部份人也許不認識他 Dumas Malone.
14:49
He did a five-volume biography of Thomas Jefferson,
294
874000
4000
他共寫了五冊湯瑪斯•傑弗遜（Thomas Jefferson）的傳記，
14:53
spent virtually his whole life with Thomas Jefferson,
295
878000
5000
差不多用了自己整個生命跟Thomas Jefferson在一起,
14:58
and by the way, at one point I asked him,
296
883000
2000
打岔一下，就在那時, 我問他,
15:00
"Would you like to have met him?"
297
885000
2000
『你喜歡遇上他嗎?』
15:02
And he said, "Well, of course,
298
887000
2000
他說: 『當然!
15:04
but actually, I know him better than anyone who ever met him,
299
889000
3000
但事實上, 我比起任何人都更了解他,
15:07
because I got to read all of his letters."
300
892000
2000
因為我曾閱讀他的所有書信。』
15:09
So, he was very satisfied with the kind of relationship they had over 50 years.
301
894000
6000
所以, 他對於跟Thomas Jefferson有過這五十多年的關係而感到很榮幸。
15:15
And I asked him one question.
302
900000
3000
我接著再問他一個問題,
15:18
I said, "Did Jefferson ever disappoint you?"
303
903000
4000
我問: 『那Thomas Jefferson曾經讓你失望嗎?』
15:22
And here is this man who had given his whole life to uncovering Jefferson
304
907000
5000
我眼前的人, 他曾付出他的整個生命去發掘Thomas Jefferson,
15:27
and connecting with him,
305
912000
2000
以及跟他聯繫,
15:29
and he said, "Well ..." -- I'm going to do a bad southern accent.
306
914000
5000
他接著說:『 這個…… 』-- 我會用不好的南方口音演繹。
15:34
Dumas Malone was from Mississippi originally.
307
919000
3000
Dumas Malone 原本來自密西西比。
15:37
But he said, "Well," he said, "I'm afraid so."
308
922000
4000
但他說: 『這…… 大概是有的。』
15:41
He said, "You know, I've read everything,
309
926000
3000
他說: 『你知嗎? 我讀過所有東西，
15:44
and sometimes Mr. Jefferson would smooth the truth a bit."
310
929000
8000
有時, Mr. Jefferson會把真相潤飾一下。』
15:52
And he basically was saying that this was a man
311
937000
3000
他基本上在說著, 人都是
15:55
who lied more than he wished he had,
312
940000
3000
撒一些他不是太自願的謊
15:58
because he saw the letters.
313
943000
2000
因為他曾看過那些信件。
16:00
He said, "But I understand that." He said, "I understand that."
314
945000
4000
他說: 『但我會體諒的。』 他說, 『我會體諒的。』
16:04
He said, "We southerners do like a smooth surface,
315
949000
5000
他說: 『我們南方的人都會喜歡一些較圓滑的外表，
16:09
so that there were times when he just didn't want the confrontation."
316
954000
4000
只是因為他不想有太多的直接對質而已。』
16:13
And he said, "Now, John Adams was too honest."
317
958000
4000
他接著說: 『反而 John Adams 是太誠實了。』
16:17
And he started to talk about that, and later on he invited me to his house,
318
962000
3000
他便於是開始轉話題了, 之後, 他曾邀請我到他的家,
16:20
and I met his wife who was from Massachusetts,
319
965000
2000
我認識了他那來自Massachusetts的太太,
16:22
and he and she had exactly the relationship
320
967000
3000
他和她有著跟Thomas Jefferson 和John Adams
16:25
of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.
321
970000
3000
相同的關係。
16:28
She was the New Englander and abrasive,
322
973000
2000
她是新英倫人, 也有點粗野,
16:30
and he was this courtly fellow.
323
975000
3000
但他卻是宮廷的隨從。
16:33
But really the most important question I ever asked,
324
978000
3000
但事實上, 我問過的最重要的問題是,
16:36
and most of the times when I talk about it,
325
981000
3000
那些我經常掛在口邊的,
16:39
people kind of suck in their breath at my audacity, or cruelty,
326
984000
5000
或是那些讓人在我的大膽和進取之中凝住呼吸的,
16:44
but I promise you it was the right question.
327
989000
4000
我可以告訴你, 那些就是對的問題。
16:48
This was to Agnes de Mille.
328
993000
3000
這是給Agnes de Mille的。
16:51
Agnes de Mille is one of the great choreographers in our history.
329
996000
4000
Agnes de Mille 是我們歷史上最偉大的編舞者。
16:55
She basically created the dances in "Oklahoma,"
330
1000000
4000
她創造了Oklahoma 的舞蹈,
16:59
transforming the American theater.
331
1004000
2000
改變了美國的劇場。
17:01
An amazing woman.
332
1006000
2000
一個很出色的女性。
17:03
At the time that I proposed to her that --
333
1008000
5000
當我想邀請她時--
17:08
by the way, I would have proposed to her; she was extraordinary --
334
1013000
2000
其實,我應該更早的邀請她, 她是如此的出色--
17:10
but proposed to her that she come on.
335
1015000
2000
我邀請她前來。
17:12
She said, "Come to my apartment."
336
1017000
2000
她說:『 來我的公寓吧。』
17:14
She lived in New York.
337
1019000
2000
她住在紐約。
17:16
"Come to my apartment and we'll talk for those 15 minutes,
338
1021000
4000
『來我的公寓, 我們可以談約十五分鐘,
17:20
and then we'll decide whether we proceed."
339
1025000
2000
那我們就可以決定是否要繼續進行。』
17:22
And so I showed up in this dark, rambling New York apartment,
340
1027000
5000
於是, 我到了那個黑漆的紐約公寓,
17:27
and she called out to me, and she was in bed.
341
1032000
3000
她睡在床上, 大聲的叫我。
17:30
I had known that she had had a stroke,
342
1035000
2000
我已經知道她曾經中風,
17:32
and that was some 10 years before.
343
1037000
2000
但已經是十年前了的。
17:34
And so she spent almost all of her life in bed,
344
1039000
5000
所以, 她生命的大部份時間都是耗在床上,
17:39
but -- I speak of the life force --
345
1044000
2000
但, 我想說的是生命力---
17:41
her hair was askew.
346
1046000
2000
她的頭髮有點凌亂。
17:43
She wasn't about to make up for this occasion.
347
1048000
3000
她還沒有準備為這場合而整裝。
17:46
And she was sitting there surrounded by books,
348
1051000
3000
她坐著的地方被書本重重圍著,
17:49
and her most interesting possession she felt at that moment
349
1054000
4000
在那一刻, 她最著緊的
17:53
was her will, which she had by her side.
350
1058000
6000
是她的遺囑, 就放在她的身邊。
17:59
She wasn't unhappy about this. She was resigned.
351
1064000
4000
她並沒有為這而不快樂, 她看破了。
18:03
She said, "I keep this will by my bed, memento mori,
352
1068000
6000
她說：『我會把這遺囑放在床邊,
18:09
and I change it all the time
353
1074000
3000
因為我會常常更新
18:12
just because I want to."
354
1077000
2000
只是因為我想這樣做。』
18:14
And she was loving the prospect of death as much as she had loved life.
355
1079000
5000
她喜歡死後的來生, 就好像她喜愛自己的生命一樣。
18:19
I thought, this is somebody I've got to get in this series.
356
1084000
3000
我想，這就是我想放在節目系列裡的人，
18:22
She agreed.
357
1087000
2000
她同意。
18:24
She came on. Of course she was wheelchaired on.
358
1089000
3000
她來了, 當然她是坐著輪椅前來。
18:27
Half of her body was stricken, the other half not.
359
1092000
3000
她有半身不能動彈, 但另半身卻沒有問題。
18:30
She was, of course, done up for the occasion,
360
1095000
3000
她當然是, 好好的整裝來到,
18:33
but this was a woman in great physical distress.
361
1098000
4000
但這是個身體非常殘缺的女性。
18:37
And we had a conversation,
362
1102000
3000
我們有一段對話,
18:40
and then I asked her this unthinkable question.
363
1105000
3000
我問了她一個從未想過的問題。
18:43
I said, "Was it a problem for you in your life that you were not beautiful?"
364
1108000
9000
我說: 『不漂亮會是你人生的難題嗎? 』
18:52
And the audience just -- you know,
365
1117000
3000
那些聽眾只是--- 你知道，
18:55
they're always on the side of the interviewee,
366
1120000
3000
他們常常是站在受訪者那一邊，
18:58
and they felt that this was a kind of assault,
367
1123000
3000
他們會覺得這是一種攻擊，
19:01
but this was the question she had
368
1126000
2000
但這竟然是一個
19:03
wanted somebody to ask her whole life.
369
1128000
3000
她一生都想別人來問的問題。
19:06
And she began to talk about her childhood, when she was beautiful,
370
1131000
5000
她開始談到她的童年，當她還是很漂亮的時候，
19:11
and she literally turned -- here she was, in this broken body --
371
1136000
3000
跟著她轉到 -- 那時的她, 在那殘缺的身軀裡 --
19:14
and she turned to the audience and
372
1139000
3000
接著, 她轉向聽眾
19:17
described herself as the fair demoiselle
373
1142000
2000
形容她自己好像是妙齡少女
19:19
with her red hair and her light steps and so forth,
374
1144000
6000
般有著紅色頭髮和輕盈的步伐，
19:25
and then she said, "And then puberty hit."
375
1150000
3000
然後她說: 『接著青春期便來了。』
19:28
And she began to talk about things that had happened
376
1153000
2000
她開始談到所有發生
19:30
to her body and her face,
377
1155000
2000
在她臉上和身體上的事,
19:32
and how she could no longer count on her beauty,
378
1157000
4000
現在她已經不可以再依靠自己的美麗，
19:36
and her family then treated her like the ugly sister of the beautiful one
379
1161000
7000
還有家裡認為她已成了醜陋的姊姊，
19:43
for whom all the ballet lessons were given.
380
1168000
2000
而美麗的妹妹都可以去上所有的芭蕾舞課。
19:45
And she had to go along just to be with her sister for company,
381
1170000
5000
而她只能陪著妹妹去上堂，
19:50
and in that process, she made a number of decisions.
382
1175000
3000
在這過程裡, 她做了許多決定。
19:53
First of all, was that dance, even though
383
1178000
2000
第一, 跳舞, 即使
19:55
it hadn't been offered to her, was her life.
384
1180000
2000
並沒有安排給她, 卻是她的生命。
19:57
And secondly, she had better be,
385
1182000
2000
第二, 她雖然只跳了一段時間的舞, ,
19:59
although she did dance for a while, a choreographer
386
1184000
2000
但她還是認為當一個編舞師較好
20:01
because then her looks didn't matter.
387
1186000
3000
因為作為編舞師, 樣子不是一個大問題。
20:04
But she was thrilled to get that out as a real, real fact in her life.
388
1189000
7000
當這個夢想能成真的時候, 她是真的激動不已。
20:11
It was an amazing privilege to do this series.
389
1196000
5000
能做這樣的一個系列, 是一個很大的榮幸。
20:16
There were other moments like that, very few moments of silence.
390
1201000
6000
還有其他的讓人激動的時刻, 也有一些沉默的時刻。
20:22
The key point was empathy
391
1207000
3000
最大的重點是同理心
20:25
because everybody in their lives
392
1210000
4000
因為每一個人在他的人生之中
20:29
is really waiting for people to ask them questions,
393
1214000
4000
是真切的等待別人去問他們問題,
20:33
so that they can be truthful about who they are
394
1218000
2000
於是, 他們就能够坦誠的面對自己是誰
20:35
and how they became what they are,
395
1220000
3000
以及自己怎樣去變成這樣的我,
20:38
and I commend that to you, even if you're not doing interviews.
396
1223000
4000
我會勸告你們, 即使你不是在做訪談。
20:42
Just be that way with your friends
397
1227000
2000
即使只是和朋友閒聊，
20:44
and particularly the older members of your family.
398
1229000
3000
尤其是一些較年長的家人相處，也要保持這樣的方式。
20:47
Thank you very much.
399
1232000
2000
謝謝大家!
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Marc Pachter - Cultural HistorianMarc Pachter has spent his career curating and creating intimate portraits of the lives of others.
Why you should listen
Marc Pachter is a man of many talents, and it seems he's used every one of them during his 33 years at the Smithsonian Institution. Although he has devoted most of his career to one organization, with the single goal of capturing the lives of great Americans, to do so he has played multiple roles. He began his time at the Smithsonian just after a five-year stint at Harvard, where he earned a master's in history and taught Colonial history. Since that time he has served as acting director of the National Museum of American History, chaired the celebration of the Smithsonian's 150th anniversary, created the first national portrait competition, organized the first national conference on biography and created an interview program called "Living Self-Portaits" which earned him the title of Smithsonian "master interviewer."
In his final years at the Smithsonian, Pachter was director of the National Portrait Gallery Director, retiring in 2007 to work on his writing. Pachter has authored two books, Telling Lives: The Biographer's Art and A Gallery of Presidents, and is editor of several more. In addition, he holds an editorial role at the peer-reviewed journal Biography and was senior cultural advisor to the United States Information Agency for some years.
Marc Pachter | Speaker | TED.com