EG 2008
Marc Pachter: The art of the interview
Marc Pachter: 采访的艺术
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Marc Pachter在Smithsonian(美国国家教研设施基金会，由已故同名英国科学家发起)国家人物志系列访谈中，采访了现当代美国史上许多最令人感兴趣的杰出人物。他揭示了成功访问的秘诀并分享了采访Steve Martin, Clare Booth Luce等人时的有趣故事。
Marc Pachter - Cultural Historian
Marc Pachter has spent his career curating and creating intimate portraits of the lives of others. Full bio
Marc Pachter has spent his career curating and creating intimate portraits of the lives of others. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
The National Portrait Gallery is the place dedicated
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国家人物志致力于
00:19
to presenting great American lives,
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展现非凡的美国生活，
00:21
amazing people.
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非凡的美国人。
00:23
And that's what it's about.
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这就是它的意义所在。
00:25
We use portraiture as a way to deliver those lives, but that's it.
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我们用肖像画的手法来还原这些人的生活，如此而已。
00:29
And so I'm not going to talk about the painted portrait today.
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所以我今天要说的不是真正的肖像画。
00:33
I'm going to talk about a program I started there,
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我想谈谈一个我发起的项目，
00:36
which, from my point of view, is the proudest thing I did.
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我一生最得意的作品。
00:41
I started to worry about the fact
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我为一个事实而忧虑
00:45
that a lot of people don't get their portraits painted anymore,
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那就是很多人终生不为人所知，
00:48
and they're amazing people,
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然而他们是非常杰出的人物，
00:50
and we want to deliver them to future generations.
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我们想把他们的故事讲给我们的后代听。
00:53
So, how do we do that?
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那么我们该怎么做呢？
00:55
And so I came up with the idea of the living self-portrait series.
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于是我想到了发起这个自画像式的系列访谈。
00:57
And the living self-portrait series was the idea of basically
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基本上就是说
01:01
my being a brush in the hand
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我作为被访谈者手中的画笔
01:03
of amazing people who would come and I would interview.
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请他们通过访谈为自己画像。
01:06
And so what I'm going to do is, not so much give you
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我不会谈
01:09
the great hits of that program,
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这个节目的成功之处，
01:11
as to give you this whole notion
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我想谈的是总体上
01:13
of how you encounter people in that kind of situation,
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在这种情况下你怎样去面对这些人，
01:16
what you try to find out about them,
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你想在他们身上发掘些什么，
01:18
and when people deliver and when they don't and why.
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以及他们滔滔不绝或缄口不语的原因是什么。
01:23
Now, I had two preconditions.
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我对采访设置两个前提。
01:26
One was that they be American.
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一，受访者应该是美国人。
01:28
That's just because, in the nature of the National Portrait Gallery,
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这是由国家人物志的定位决定的---
01:31
it's created to look at American lives.
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这是一个探讨美国人的节目。
01:34
That was easy, but then I made the decision,
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这个很容易，而之后的一个决定，
01:37
maybe arbitrary,
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也许有些武断，
01:39
that they needed to be people of a certain age,
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就是受访者应该都到了一定的年纪，
01:43
which at that point, when I created this program,
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在我立项之初，
01:45
seemed really old.
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就决定被访群体主要是老人。
01:47
Sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties.
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60岁，70岁，80岁，甚至90岁。
01:50
For obvious reasons, it doesn't seem that old anymore to me.
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很明显，对我来说现在他们也不算很老了。
01:52
And why did I do that?
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那么我为什么这么做呢？
01:54
Well, for one thing, we're a youth-obsessed culture.
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第一，我们生活在一个推崇年轻人的文化里。
01:56
And I thought really what we need is an elders program
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但我觉得我们更需要给长者一个舞台，
02:00
to just sit at the feet of amazing people and hear them talk.
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让我们可以坐在台下聆听这些长者娓娓道来。
02:04
But the second part of it -- and the older I get,
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第二个点是——随着我的年纪加深，
02:08
the more convinced I am that that's true.
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我越来越相信这一点——
02:11
It's amazing what people will say when they know
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他们大都洞悉世事发展的方向，
02:14
how the story turned out.
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听他们讲述这些故事是一件很神奇的事情。
02:16
That's the one advantage that older people have.
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这是长者独有的智慧之一。
02:20
Well, they have other, little bit of advantage,
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好吧，做老人家还有那么点儿好处，
02:22
but they also have some disadvantages,
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当然也会有不好的地方，
02:24
but the one thing they or we have is that
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但我们的共性就是
02:26
we've reached the point in life
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我们已经到了
02:28
where we know how the story turned out.
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能够看透世事的人生阶段了。
02:31
So, we can then go back in our lives,
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所以，我们回归生活，
02:33
if we've got an interviewer who gets that,
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如果恰好有一位理解这些的访问者，
02:36
and begin to reflect on how we got there.
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那么我们就可以为他讲述一路走来的人生历程。
02:40
All of those accidents that wound up
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所有这些悲悲喜喜
02:43
creating the life narrative that we inherited.
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成就了我们今天听到的这段精彩人生。
02:46
So, I thought okay, now,
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然后我就开始想：
02:48
what is it going to take to make this work?
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那么怎么才能达到这种效果呢？
02:51
There are many kinds of interviews. We know them.
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采访有很多种，我们都知道。
02:53
There are the journalist interviews,
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有一种是记者采访，
02:55
which are the interrogation that is expected.
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这更像是盘查和质问。
02:57
This is somewhat against resistance
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某种程度上你必须应对来自被访者
02:59
and caginess on the part of the interviewee.
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的抵触情绪和外交辞令。
03:03
Then there's the celebrity interview,
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另一种是名人访谈，
03:05
where it's more important who's asking the question than who answers.
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提问者的身份往往比被访者是谁更重要。
03:08
That's Barbara Walters and others like that, and we like that.
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Barbara Walters以及其他一些人就属于这种，大家都很喜欢。
03:12
That's Frost-Nixon, where Frost seems to be as important
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像Frost对Nixon的访问，Frost就显得跟Nixon
03:15
as Nixon in that process.
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一样重要。
03:17
Fair enough.
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就是如此。
03:19
But I wanted interviews that were different.
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但我想要的采访跟这些不一样。
03:21
I wanted to be, as I later thought of it, empathic,
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我希望能达到“通感“的境界，这个词是我后来想到的。
03:28
which is to say, to feel what they wanted to say
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也就是说，要能体会到他们想要说的，©
03:33
and to be an agent of their self-revelation.
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然后代替他们揭示自我。
03:37
By the way, this was always done in public.
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别忘了，这都是要在大庭广众面前完成的。
03:39
This was not an oral history program.
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这不仅仅是一个谈论历史的节目。
03:41
This was all about 300 people sitting at the feet of this individual,
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300名观众坐在被访者身边，
03:46
and having me be the brush in their self-portrait.
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而我则化身为一支描绘被访者肖像的画笔。
03:50
Now, it turns out that I was pretty good at that.
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结果呢，我发现我其实很擅长这件事情。
03:53
I didn't know it coming into it.
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我开始并不知道。
03:55
And the only reason I really know that
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后来意识到的唯一原因是
03:57
is because of one interview I did with Senator William Fulbright,
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我对William Fullbright参议员所做的访谈。
04:02
and that was six months after he'd had a stroke.
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那是在他中风以后6个月的时候。
04:06
And he had never appeared in public since that point.
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他自打中风后还没公开露过面。
04:08
This was not a devastating stroke,
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那次中风并不是特别严重，
04:10
but it did affect his speaking and so forth.
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但也影响到了讲话和其他一些行为。
04:13
And I thought it was worth a chance,
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我觉得他可以试着重新出来见见大家了，
04:15
he thought it was worth a chance,
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他也觉得可行，
04:17
and so we got up on the stage,
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所以我们就来到舞台上，
04:19
and we had an hour conversation about his life,
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谈了一个小时，关于他的人生，
04:22
and after that a woman rushed up to me,
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结束后，一位女士跑到我面前，
04:25
essentially did,
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确实是这样，
04:27
and she said, "Where did you train as a doctor?"
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她对我说“你在哪里接受的医疗培训？”
04:30
And I said, "I have no training as a doctor. I never claimed that."
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我说：“我从来没有学过，我也从没有说过我学过啊。”
04:34
And she said, "Well, something very weird was happening.
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然后她说：“好吧，那么刚才发生的就很令人费解了。
04:38
When he started a sentence, particularly
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当他开始说一句话，
04:40
in the early parts of the interview,
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尤其是在访问的最初阶段，
04:43
and paused, you gave him the word,
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然后稍稍停顿，这时你给递给他一个词，
04:45
the bridge to get to the end of the sentence,
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这个词就像桥梁一样帮助他到达句子的结尾。
04:48
and by the end of it,
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然后到了后来，
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he was speaking complete sentences on his own."
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他就开始自己说完整的句子了。“
04:53
I didn't know what was going on,
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我不知道发生了什么，
04:55
but I was so part of the process of getting that out.
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但毋庸质疑是我在帮他完成那个过程。
04:58
So I thought, okay, fine, I've got empathy,
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所以我就想，好吧，看来我已经知道怎么“通感”了。
05:02
or empathy, at any rate,
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或者说“通感”，本来就是
05:04
is what's critical to this kind of interview.
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这类访谈成功的关键。
05:06
But then I began to think of other things.
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但过后我又开始思考其他一些事情。
05:08
Who makes a great interview in this context?
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怎样的受访者可以成就一个好的访谈？
05:12
It had nothing to do with their intellect,
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这与受访者的才智没有关系，
05:14
the quality of their intellect.
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他们的智商。
05:16
Some of them were very brilliant,
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他们中有些人非常聪明，
05:18
some of them were,
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有些人
05:20
you know, ordinary people who would never claim to be intellectuals,
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也就是普通人，他们也从不认为自己智慧过人，
05:23
but it was never about that.
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但这些都不重要。
05:26
It was about their energy.
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他们自身的能量才是关键。
05:29
It's energy that creates extraordinary interviews
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是这些能量造就了非凡的访谈
05:32
and extraordinary lives.
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以及非凡的人生。
05:34
I'm convinced of it.
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我对这点确信无疑。
05:36
And it had nothing to do with the energy of being young.
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而且这种能量也不是那种年轻人的能量，
05:39
These were people through their 90s.
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受访者有些都已经90多岁了。
05:41
In fact, the first person I interviewed
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实际上，我所采访的第一个人
05:43
was George Abbott, who was 97,
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是George Abbott, 他当时97岁。
05:46
and Abbott was filled with the life force --
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然而Abbott充满了生命力---
05:49
I guess that's the way I think about it -- filled with it.
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我就是这样想的——充满能量。
05:51
And so he filled the room,
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然后他来到这里，
05:53
and we had an extraordinary conversation.
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就有了我们之间不同寻常的对话。
05:56
He was supposed to be the toughest interview that anybody would ever do
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他曾被认为是最难搞定的受访者，
05:59
because he was famous for being silent,
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因为他以沉默著称，
06:03
for never ever saying anything
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什么都不说，
06:05
except maybe a word or two.
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即便说也就一两个词而已。
06:07
And, in fact, he did wind up opening up --
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不过，实际上，他那次还的确是说了不少。
06:09
by the way, his energy is evidenced in other ways.
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对了，他的能量还体现在其他一些方面。
06:13
He subsequently got married again at 102,
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他后来在102岁的时候又结婚了。
06:16
so he, you know, he had a lot of the life force in him.
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所以你就知道了，他其实是有不少生命力的。
06:20
But after the interview, I got a call,
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但那次访谈之后，我接到了一个电话，
06:22
very gruff voice, from a woman.
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很生硬的声音，是位女士。
06:26
I didn't know who she was,
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我不知道她是谁。
06:28
and she said, "Did you get George Abbott to talk?"
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她说：“你让George Abbott开口说话了？“
06:32
And I said, "Yeah. Apparently I did."
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我说：“是啊，看起来是这样。”
06:35
And she said, "I'm his old girlfriend, Maureen Stapleton,
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然后她说：“我是他以前的女友，Maureen Stapleton，
06:39
and I could never do it."
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我都无法让他开口。“
06:41
And then she made me go up with the tape of it
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然后她又让我把那次的录像带翻出来
06:44
and prove that George Abbott actually could talk.
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证明给她看George Abbott的确是说话了。
06:47
So, you know, you want energy,
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所以，你看，你需要那种能量，
06:49
you want the life force,
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需要生命的能量，
06:51
but you really want them also to think
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但你同时也的确需要让他们觉得
06:55
that they have a story worth sharing.
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他们的故事是值得分享的。
06:59
The worst interviews that you can ever have
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最糟糕的采访
07:02
are with people who are modest.
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就是被访者是个谦虚的人。
07:05
Never ever get up on a stage with somebody who's modest,
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千万别去采访一个谦虚的人，
07:08
because all of these people have been assembled
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因为他们本来
07:11
to listen to them, and they sit there and they say,
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是要说点东西给别人听的，但他们却坐在那里说，
07:13
"Aw, shucks, it was an accident."
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“唉算了吧，那只是个偶然事件而已。“
07:15
There's nothing that ever happens that justifies
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似乎从来没有什么能
07:19
people taking good hours of the day to be with them.
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让他们为自己做过的事情引以为豪。
07:23
The worst interview I ever did: William L. Shirer.
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我做过的最糟糕的采访是William L. Shirer.
07:26
The journalist who did "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."
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他就是“第三德国的起落”的作者。
07:31
This guy had met Hitler and Gandhi within six months,
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这个人在6个月里先后会见了希特勒和甘地。
07:35
and every time I'd ask him about it, he'd say, "Oh, I just happened to be there.
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关于这个每次我问到他的时候，他都会说，“噢，我只是碰巧在那里而已。
07:38
Didn't matter." Whatever.
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没什么大不了的。“此类的话。
07:41
Awful.
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糟糕透了。
07:43
I never would ever agree to interview a modest person.
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我再也不会答应去采访一个谦虚的人了。
07:46
They have to think that they did something
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这些人必须先明白他们确实做过些什么，
07:48
and that they want to share it with you.
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然后他们也愿意跟你分享这些。
07:50
But it comes down, in the end,
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但归根到底
07:54
to how do you get through all the barriers we have.
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是需要你去克服所有那些障碍。
08:01
All of us are public and private beings,
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我们每个人都有公众形象和个人形象，
08:04
and if all you're going to get from the interviewee is their public self,
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如果你通过采访所能获得的只是被访者的公众形象，
08:10
there's no point in it.
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那是无济于事的。
08:12
It's pre-programmed. It's infomercial,
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公众形象是我们事先安排好的，是用来作秀的，
08:15
and we all have infomercials about our lives.
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每个人都有可以拿来秀的一面。
08:18
We know the great lines, we know the great moments,
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我们都知道那些冠冕堂皇的话，知道那些让我们感到荣耀的时刻，
08:21
we know what we're not going to share,
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也知道什么事情是不能分享的，
08:23
and the point of this was not to embarrass anybody.
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关键是我们说的话不能让别人感到难堪。
08:26
This wasn't -- and some of you will remember
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这并不难——也许你们有人记得
08:28
Mike Wallace's old interviews --
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Mike Wallace以前的采访——
08:30
tough, aggressive and so forth. They have their place.
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采访不难，也没什么侵略性。这样的采访没什么问题。
08:33
I was trying to get them to say what they probably wanted to say,
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但我想做的是让他们说出他们想说的话，
08:37
to break out of their own cocoon of the public self,
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让他们从公众形象的束缚中挣脱出来。
08:44
and the more public they had been,
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他们作为公众人物的时间越长，
08:46
the more entrenched that person, that outer person was.
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这种束缚就越发的根深蒂固。
08:51
And let me tell you at once the worse moment and the best moment
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让我来告诉你们这个采访系列中
08:54
that happened in this interview series.
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最坏的和最好的时刻吧。
08:56
It all has to do with that shell that most of us have,
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这都跟罩在我们身上的这个壳儿有关系，
09:01
and particularly certain people.
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对一些人来说尤为如此。
09:04
There's an extraordinary woman named Clare Boothe Luce.
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Clare Boothe Luce是位杰出的女士。
09:07
It'll be your generational determinant
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是否知道她将是你是否属于特定年代
09:10
as to whether her name means much to you.
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的一个标志。
09:13
She did so much. She was a playwright.
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她做了很多的事情。她是一个剧作家。
09:18
She did an extraordinary play called "The Women."
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写了一部出色的剧本叫做“女人们”。
09:21
She was a congresswoman
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她也是一位国会议员，
09:23
when there weren't very many congresswomen.
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那个年代女议员屈指可数。
09:26
She was editor of Vanity Fair,
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她还是《名利场》的编辑，
09:28
one of the great phenomenal women of her day.
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总之，一个在那个年代非常杰出的女性。
09:32
And, incidentally, I call her
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不经意间我开始叫她
09:35
the Eleanor Roosevelt of the Right.
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右翼Eleanor Roosevlt。
09:38
She was sort of adored on the Right
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她被右翼人士所爱戴，
09:40
the way Eleanor Roosevelt was on the Left.
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正像是Eleanor Roosevelt被左翼爱戴一样。
09:43
And, in fact, when we did the interview --
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事实上，在我们做访谈的时候，
09:46
I did the living self-portrait with her --
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我对她做现场自画像，
09:48
there were three former directors of the CIA
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观众中有三名前CIA的主管，
09:50
basically sitting at her feet,
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坐在下面，
09:52
just enjoying her presence.
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很享受能跟她相距咫尺的感觉。
09:55
And I thought, this is going to be a piece of cake,
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我当时认为这次应该不费吹灰之力，
09:57
because I always have preliminary talks with these people
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因为我总会在开始采访之前跟被访者聊一会儿，
10:01
for just maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
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大概10到15分钟的样子。
10:04
We never talk before that because if you talk before,
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在那之前我们不进行交流，因为如果聊了，
10:07
you don't get it on the stage.
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真正采访的时候就出不来了。
10:09
So she and I had a delightful conversation.
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后来我们的谈话非常令人愉悦，
10:13
We were on the stage and then --
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我们坐在台上，然后——
10:16
by the way, spectacular.
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那真的棒极了。
10:18
It was all part of Clare Boothe Luce's look.
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Clare Boothe Luce打扮的美极了。
10:21
She was in a great evening gown.
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她穿着漂亮的晚礼服，
10:24
She was 80, almost that day of the interview,
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采访当天她马上就要80岁了。
10:27
and there she was and there I was,
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她和我坐在那里，
10:29
and I just proceeded into the questions.
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我开始提问，®
10:31
And she stonewalled me. It was unbelievable.
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然后她就开始很不配合。真是难以置信。
10:36
Anything that I would ask, she would turn around, dismiss,
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我问的任何问题都被她回避掉，
10:41
and I was basically up there -- any of you
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我基本上就被晾在那里——你们中任何一个
10:43
in the moderate-to-full entertainment world
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了解娱乐节目的人都知道
10:45
know what it is to die onstage.
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什么是冷场。
10:48
And I was dying. She was absolutely not giving me a thing.
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我就被冷在那里了。她什么都不肯说。
10:53
And I began to wonder what was going on,
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然后我开始思考到底发生了什么。
10:55
and you think while you talk,
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一边说一边思考。
10:57
and basically, I thought, I got it.
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然后我真的想明白了。
11:00
When we were alone, I was her audience.
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当我们单独交谈的时候，我是她的听众。
11:04
Now I'm her competitor for the audience.
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但在台上我变成了她争取台下听众的竞争对手。
11:06
That's the problem here, and she's fighting me for that,
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这就是问题所在，她在跟我竞争。
11:10
and so then I asked her a question --
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所以当我问她一个问题，
11:12
I didn't know how I was going to get out of it --
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我不知道将得到什么样的回答。
11:14
I asked her a question about her days as a playwright,
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我问她关于剧作家的生活，
11:20
and again, characteristically,
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这就是她的典型回答：
11:22
instead of saying, "Oh yes, I was a playwright, and this is what blah blah blah,"
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她不是说：“嗯，我曾经是一名剧作家，如此这般，”
11:25
she said, "Oh, playwright. Everybody knows I was a playwright.
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而是说：“噢，剧作家啊。人人都知道我曾是个剧作家啊。
11:28
Most people think that I was an actress. I was never an actress."
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很多人以为我还当过演员，其实我从来没有当过演员。“
11:32
But I hadn't asked that, and then she went off on a tear,
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但我并没有问关于演员的事情，然后她就开始掉眼泪，
11:36
and she said, "Oh, well, there was that one time that I was an actress.
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继续说道：“嗯，其实，我有段时间的确是一名演员。
11:39
It was for a charity in Connecticut when I was a congresswoman,
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那是在当议员的时候为了康涅狄格的一次慈善活动，
11:42
and I got up there," and she went on and on, "And then I got on the stage."
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我就上去了，“然后她继续说，”我就上了舞台。“
11:45
And then she turned to me and said,
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接着她转向我说，
11:47
"And you know what those young actors did?
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“你知道那些演员都做了什么吗？
11:50
They upstaged me." And she said, "Do you know what that is?"
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他们对我很势力。“然后她又说，”你知道那是什么吗？“
11:52
Just withering in her contempt.
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我被她这种不屑的态度搞得有些气馁，
11:54
And I said, "I'm learning."
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于是就说，“我正在学习”
11:56
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
11:58
And she looked at me, and it was like the successful arm-wrestle,
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然后她看着我，就好像赢了一场掰手腕比赛。
12:03
and then, after that, she delivered an extraordinary account
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接下来，她终于开口讲述
12:07
of what her life really was like.
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她真正的生活是什么样子的，讲得非常精彩。
12:09
I have to end that one. This is my tribute to Clare Boothe Luce.
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这个故事我必须到此为止了。算是我向Clare Boothe Luce贡献的小小礼物吧。
12:12
Again, a remarkable person.
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再说一遍，她是个杰出的人。
12:14
I'm not politically attracted to her, but through her life force,
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我对她的政见并不感冒，但她身上散发的生命力，
12:17
I'm attracted to her.
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吸引着我。
12:20
And the way she died -- she had, toward the end, a brain tumor.
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她辞世的方式——她是因为晚期脑瘤去世的
12:25
That's probably as terrible a way to die as you can imagine,
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她可能是你能想到的最坏的离开方式了。
12:28
and very few of us were invited to a dinner party.
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极少的几个人被邀请到她的晚餐聚会，
12:34
And she was in horrible pain.
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当时她处在强烈的疼痛之中，
12:36
We all knew that.
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这我们都知道。
12:38
She stayed in her room.
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她待在自己的房里，
12:41
Everybody came. The butler passed around canapes.
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客人都来了。管家给大家分发鱼子面包，
12:43
The usual sort of thing.
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很稀松平常的东西。
12:46
Then at a certain moment, the door opened
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然后到了某个时刻，门打开了，
12:49
and she walked out perfectly dressed, completely composed.
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她走了出来，打扮得一丝不苟，而且非常镇定。
12:53
The public self, the beauty, the intellect,
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她的公众形象，她的美丽，她的智慧。
12:57
and she walked around and talked to every person there
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然后她走向大家，跟每个人进行交谈，
13:01
and then went back into the room and was never seen again.
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然后走回房间，从此再也没有人见过她。
13:04
She wanted the control of her final moment, and she did it amazingly.
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她希望掌控自己的最后时刻，她做到了，而且让人赞叹。
13:10
Now, there are other ways that you get somebody to open up,
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其实还有一些别的方法能让受访者敞开心扉，
13:14
and this is just a brief reference.
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这里我只能简单的提一下。
13:18
It wasn't this arm-wrestle,
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这个并不像刚才说过的“掰手腕”，
13:20
but it was a little surprising for the person involved.
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但也能让受访者感到出乎意料。
13:22
I interviewed Steve Martin. It wasn't all that long ago.
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我采访过Steve Martin。那是在很久以前了。
13:26
And we were sitting there,
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我们坐在那里，
13:28
and almost toward the beginning of the interview,
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采访刚刚开始，
13:31
I turned to him and I said, "Steve," or "Mr. Martin,
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我问他：“Steve” 或者“Martin先生，
13:36
it is said that all comedians have unhappy childhoods.
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人们都说所有的喜剧演员都有着不愉快的童年，
13:42
Was yours unhappy?"
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你的童年是否也是这样？“
13:44
And he looked at me, you know, as if to say,
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他看着我，就像是在说，
13:47
"This is how you're going to start this thing, right off?"
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”怎么一上来就问这个问题呢？“
13:50
And then he turned to me, not stupidly,
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然后他看着我，一点也不傻，
13:52
and he said, "What was your childhood like?"
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反问道，”那么你的童年是什么样子的？“
13:56
And I said -- these are all arm wrestles, but they're affectionate --
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这些都是”掰手腕“，但是很真诚。我回答说，
13:59
and I said, "My father was loving and supportive,
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”我的父亲很慈爱，也很支持我，
14:02
which is why I'm not funny."
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所以我现在这么无趣。“
14:04
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
14:06
And he looked at me, and then we heard the big sad story.
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然后他看着我，开始讲述他的伤心故事。
14:10
His father was an SOB,
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他的父亲是一个大混蛋，
14:12
and, in fact, he was another comedian with an unhappy childhood,
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事实上，他也是个有着不幸童年的喜剧演员，
14:16
but then we were off and running.
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然后我们就开始跑题了。
14:19
So the question is:
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问题在于：
14:20
What is the key that's going to allow this to proceed?
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是什么启动了这个过程？
14:23
Now, these are arm wrestle questions,
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这些确实是”掰手腕“的问题，
14:25
but I want to tell you about questions
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但我想告诉你们的是
14:28
that are more related to empathy
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那些由”通感“而引发的问题，
14:31
and that really, very often, are the questions
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那些问题往往是
14:34
that people have been waiting their whole lives to be asked.
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人们等待了一辈子想要被问到的问题。
14:37
And I'll just give you two examples of this because of the time constraints.
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时间关系我就只举两个例子吧。
14:41
One was an interview I did with one of the great American biographers.
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第一个是我对那位伟大的美国传记文学家所做的采访。
14:47
Again, some of you will know him, most of you won't, Dumas Malone.
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他叫Dumas Malone。你们有些人可能知道他，大多数可能并不知道。
14:49
He did a five-volume biography of Thomas Jefferson,
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他为Thomas Jefferson写了一部五卷的传记，
14:53
spent virtually his whole life with Thomas Jefferson,
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几乎一生都跟Thomas Jefferson在一起。
14:58
and by the way, at one point I asked him,
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对了，采访的时候我曾问他，
15:00
"Would you like to have met him?"
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”你觉得遇到他幸运吗？“
15:02
And he said, "Well, of course,
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他说，“当然了。
15:04
but actually, I know him better than anyone who ever met him,
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但实际上，我比谁都要了解他，
15:07
because I got to read all of his letters."
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因为我看过他所有的信件。“
15:09
So, he was very satisfied with the kind of relationship they had over 50 years.
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也就是说，他对他们之间50年的关系非常满意。
15:15
And I asked him one question.
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然后我问了他一个问题。
15:18
I said, "Did Jefferson ever disappoint you?"
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我说，”Jefferson有没有让你失望过？“
15:22
And here is this man who had given his whole life to uncovering Jefferson
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这个花了毕生精力来研究Jefferson
15:27
and connecting with him,
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并与他进行沟通的传记学者
15:29
and he said, "Well ..." -- I'm going to do a bad southern accent.
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回答道，“嗯——” 这里我准备拙劣的模仿一下南部口音，
15:34
Dumas Malone was from Mississippi originally.
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Dumas Malone的家乡在密西西比，
15:37
But he said, "Well," he said, "I'm afraid so."
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他回答道，“嗯——恐怕是的。”
15:41
He said, "You know, I've read everything,
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他说，“你知道吗，我看过他所有的东西，
15:44
and sometimes Mr. Jefferson would smooth the truth a bit."
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有时候Jefferson先生会稍微隐瞒一下事情的真相。”
15:52
And he basically was saying that this was a man
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其实他就是在说Jefferson
15:55
who lied more than he wished he had,
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不比他原以为的那么诚实，
15:58
because he saw the letters.
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因为他看过那些信件。
16:00
He said, "But I understand that." He said, "I understand that."
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他说，“但我理解，”他说，“我理解。”
16:04
He said, "We southerners do like a smooth surface,
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他说，“我们南方人喜欢表面看上去光鲜一些，
16:09
so that there were times when he just didn't want the confrontation."
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于是会有一些时候他不想要太多的正面冲突。”
16:13
And he said, "Now, John Adams was too honest."
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然后他又说，“你看，John Adams就过于诚实了。”
16:17
And he started to talk about that, and later on he invited me to his house,
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然后他开始说关于John Adams的事情。后来他邀请我去他家里，
16:20
and I met his wife who was from Massachusetts,
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我见到了他的妻子，她来自马萨诸塞州，
16:22
and he and she had exactly the relationship
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他们俩人之间的关系
16:25
of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.
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跟Jefferson和Adams的关系一模一样。
16:28
She was the New Englander and abrasive,
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她来自新英格兰地区，说话很生硬率直，
16:30
and he was this courtly fellow.
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而他则是一个彬彬有礼的人。
16:33
But really the most important question I ever asked,
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但那个问题的确是我所问过的最重要的一个问题。
16:36
and most of the times when I talk about it,
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大多数时候，当我提到这个的时候，
16:39
people kind of suck in their breath at my audacity, or cruelty,
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人们会因为我的大胆，或者说残酷而倒吸一口冷气，
16:44
but I promise you it was the right question.
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但相信我，那绝对是该问的问题。
16:48
This was to Agnes de Mille.
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下面要说的是Agnes de Mille.
16:51
Agnes de Mille is one of the great choreographers in our history.
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Agnes de Mille是历史上最杰出的舞蹈编导之一。
16:55
She basically created the dances in "Oklahoma,"
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她创作了“俄克拉荷马”，
16:59
transforming the American theater.
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从而改变了整个美国的舞台剧。
17:01
An amazing woman.
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令人惊叹的女人。
17:03
At the time that I proposed to her that --
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当初我向她提出——
17:08
by the way, I would have proposed to her; she was extraordinary --
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顺便说一句，我没准真会向她求婚，她是那么的与众不同——
17:10
but proposed to her that she come on.
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我邀请她过来接受采访，
17:12
She said, "Come to my apartment."
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她说，“到我的公寓来吧。”
17:14
She lived in New York.
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她住在纽约，
17:16
"Come to my apartment and we'll talk for those 15 minutes,
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“到这里来，我们先聊15分钟，
17:20
and then we'll decide whether we proceed."
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然后再决定是否继续。”
17:22
And so I showed up in this dark, rambling New York apartment,
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所以我就去了那个黑暗杂乱的纽约公寓，
17:27
and she called out to me, and she was in bed.
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听到她叫我，她躺在床上。
17:30
I had known that she had had a stroke,
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我之前已经知道她中过风，
17:32
and that was some 10 years before.
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大概10年以前，
17:34
And so she spent almost all of her life in bed,
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所以她的生命大部分时间都是在床上度过的。
17:39
but -- I speak of the life force --
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然而——我要说的是生命力——
17:41
her hair was askew.
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她的头发是杂乱的，
17:43
She wasn't about to make up for this occasion.
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她并没有为采访而化妆。
17:46
And she was sitting there surrounded by books,
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她坐在那里，被书籍所包围，
17:49
and her most interesting possession she felt at that moment
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她认为她当时拥有的最有趣的东西
17:53
was her will, which she had by her side.
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是她的遗嘱，就放在她手边。
17:59
She wasn't unhappy about this. She was resigned.
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她对此并不满意，但她屈服了。
18:03
She said, "I keep this will by my bed, memento mori,
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她说，“我把遗嘱放在床边，它是死亡的象征，
18:09
and I change it all the time
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我不停的修改它，
18:12
just because I want to."
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我就是想这么做。”
18:14
And she was loving the prospect of death as much as she had loved life.
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她对生死一样热爱。
18:19
I thought, this is somebody I've got to get in this series.
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当时我就想，一定要把她放在我的采访系列中。
18:22
She agreed.
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她同意了。
18:24
She came on. Of course she was wheelchaired on.
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她出来了，当然是坐着轮椅出来的。
18:27
Half of her body was stricken, the other half not.
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她受中风影响，半身不遂，
18:30
She was, of course, done up for the occasion,
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当然她做好了访谈的准备，
18:33
but this was a woman in great physical distress.
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但她承受着巨大的肉体折磨。
18:37
And we had a conversation,
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然后我们开始交谈，
18:40
and then I asked her this unthinkable question.
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我问了她一个意想不到的问题。
18:43
I said, "Was it a problem for you in your life that you were not beautiful?"
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我说，“你曾因为自己不漂亮而感到困扰吗？”
18:52
And the audience just -- you know,
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在场的观众——你也知道，
18:55
they're always on the side of the interviewee,
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他们总是站在受访者一边，
18:58
and they felt that this was a kind of assault,
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他们觉得这个问题有攻击性，
19:01
but this was the question she had
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但这个问题是她一生
19:03
wanted somebody to ask her whole life.
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一直想要被问到的问题。
19:06
And she began to talk about her childhood, when she was beautiful,
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然后她就开始讲述她的童年，那时她还很漂亮，
19:11
and she literally turned -- here she was, in this broken body --
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然后她转身——尽管她的身体很虚弱——
19:14
and she turned to the audience and
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她转向观众，
19:17
described herself as the fair demoiselle
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把她自己描述成一名待嫁的少女，
19:19
with her red hair and her light steps and so forth,
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一头红发，脚步轻盈，如此这般，
19:25
and then she said, "And then puberty hit."
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然后她接着说，“在那之后青春期就到了。”
19:28
And she began to talk about things that had happened
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然后她开始讲述
19:30
to her body and her face,
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发生在她身上和脸上的事情，
19:32
and how she could no longer count on her beauty,
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她从此不能再指望她的长相了，
19:36
and her family then treated her like the ugly sister of the beautiful one
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她的家人从此只把她当成一个丑小鸭，
19:43
for whom all the ballet lessons were given.
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她漂亮的姐妹们都去上芭蕾课，
19:45
And she had to go along just to be with her sister for company,
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而她只能陪她们一同前往。
19:50
and in that process, she made a number of decisions.
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就在那段时间，她做了一些决定。
19:53
First of all, was that dance, even though
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第一个就是，尽管她不能上跳舞课，
19:55
it hadn't been offered to her, was her life.
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跳舞仍会是她的生命。
19:57
And secondly, she had better be,
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第二，尽管她以前是跳舞的，
19:59
although she did dance for a while, a choreographer
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但如果能成为一名编舞就更好了，
20:01
because then her looks didn't matter.
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因为那样的话她长什么样都无所谓了。
20:04
But she was thrilled to get that out as a real, real fact in her life.
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童年的梦想终于成真的时候，她激动不已。
20:11
It was an amazing privilege to do this series.
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能完成这一系列访谈是我的幸运。
20:16
There were other moments like that, very few moments of silence.
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类似的时刻还有一些，很少的一些让人默然的时刻。
20:22
The key point was empathy
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关键所在就是要产生“通感”，
20:25
because everybody in their lives
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因为每个人在他们的生命里
20:29
is really waiting for people to ask them questions,
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都在等待一些问题，
20:33
so that they can be truthful about who they are
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这样他们就能坚持真实的自我，
20:35
and how they became what they are,
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以及他们是如何成为今天的自己的。
20:38
and I commend that to you, even if you're not doing interviews.
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我建议你们，即便你们不做采访，
20:42
Just be that way with your friends
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对自己的朋友也试着这么去做，
20:44
and particularly the older members of your family.
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尤其是对家里的长辈。
20:47
Thank you very much.
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非常感谢！
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Marc Pachter - Cultural HistorianMarc Pachter has spent his career curating and creating intimate portraits of the lives of others.
Why you should listen
Marc Pachter is a man of many talents, and it seems he's used every one of them during his 33 years at the Smithsonian Institution. Although he has devoted most of his career to one organization, with the single goal of capturing the lives of great Americans, to do so he has played multiple roles. He began his time at the Smithsonian just after a five-year stint at Harvard, where he earned a master's in history and taught Colonial history. Since that time he has served as acting director of the National Museum of American History, chaired the celebration of the Smithsonian's 150th anniversary, created the first national portrait competition, organized the first national conference on biography and created an interview program called "Living Self-Portaits" which earned him the title of Smithsonian "master interviewer."
In his final years at the Smithsonian, Pachter was director of the National Portrait Gallery Director, retiring in 2007 to work on his writing. Pachter has authored two books, Telling Lives: The Biographer's Art and A Gallery of Presidents, and is editor of several more. In addition, he holds an editorial role at the peer-reviewed journal Biography and was senior cultural advisor to the United States Information Agency for some years.
Marc Pachter | Speaker | TED.com