TEDxFiDiWomen
Jackson Katz: Violence against women -- it's a men's issue
贾克森·凯兹: Jackson Katz: 对妇女的暴力行为 —— 这是一个男人的问题
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家庭暴力和性侵犯经常被成为“女人的问题”。但在这个大胆又锋锐的话题里，贾克森·凯兹指出，这些问题，在本质上其实是男人的问题——并且他也告诉我们这些暴力行为是如何和我们所谓的“男子气概”挂钩的。这为我们——所有男人女人——吹响号角，号召我们看清这些暴力行为，并以身作则去改变它。
Jackson Katz问了一个至关重要的问题，挑战当下的性虐待，强奸，和家庭虐待的现状：男人到底是怎么了？
Jackson Katz - Anti-sexism educator
Jackson Katz asks a very important question that gets at the root of why sexual abuse, rape and domestic abuse remain a problem: What's going on with men? Full bio
Jackson Katz asks a very important question that gets at the root of why sexual abuse, rape and domestic abuse remain a problem: What's going on with men? Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
我今天要与你分享
00:12
I'm going to share with you
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一个看待性别暴力问题的全新视角。
00:13
a paradigm-shifting perspective
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性侵扰，家庭暴力，男女关系暴力，
00:15
on the issues of gender violence --
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00:17
sexual assault, domestic violence, relationship abuse,
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00:20
sexual harassment, sexual abuse of children.
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性虐待，儿童性虐待。
我将这一系列的问题简短称为
00:22
That whole range of issues that I'll refer to in shorthand
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00:24
as "gender violence issues,"
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“性别暴力问题。”
00:26
they've been seen as women's issues that some good men
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这些问题常被看作为需要男性帮助解决的女性问题，
00:29
help out with, but I have a problem with that frame
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但是我觉得这个看法有问题，
00:32
and I don't accept it.
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并且我不认可它。
00:33
I don't see these as women's issues that some good men help out with.
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我不认为这是一个需要男性助阵的女性问题。
00:36
In fact, I'm going to argue that these are men's issues,
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我认为这些本质上
就是男人的问题。
00:38
first and foremost.
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（鼓掌）
00:40
(Applause)
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00:43
Now obviously, they're also women's issues,
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显然，这些问题也有女性的，
00:45
so I appreciate that, but calling
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这我也理解，
但是将性别暴力问题称为女性问题
00:48
gender violence a women's issue is part of the problem,
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是问题之一。
00:50
for a number of reasons.
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原因如下：
00:52
The first is that it gives men an excuse not to pay attention.
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首先这给了男性一个不关注的借口，对吧？
00:55
Right? A lot of men hear the term "women's issues"
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很多男人听见“女性问题”这个词，
00:57
and we tend to tune it out, and we think,
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就不以为然，觉得
00:59
"Hey, I'm a guy. That's for the girls," or "That's for the women."
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“嘿，我是个男人，这些是女孩子的问题”， 或者“这些是女人的问题。”
01:01
And a lot of men literally don't get beyond the first sentence
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因此，很多男人在听到性别暴力这个词语的时候
01:04
as a result.
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就变得漠然了。
01:06
It's almost like a chip in our brain is activated,
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就好像我们大脑中的一个芯片被激活了，
01:08
and the neural pathways take our attention in a different direction
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然后神经系统把我们的注意力带到其他方向，
01:11
when we hear the term "women's issues."
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每当我们听到“女性问题”这个词的时候。
01:13
This is also true, by the way, of the word "gender,"
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对于“性别”这个词也是一样。
01:15
because a lot of people hear the word "gender"
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因为很多人听到“性别”这个词
01:17
and they think it means "women."
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他们觉得它表示“女人”。
01:19
So they think that gender issues is synonymous with women's issues.
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所以他们觉得“性别问题”和“女性问题“是同义词。
01:23
There's some confusion about the term gender.
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我们对”性别“这个词存在着一些误解。
01:25
And actually, let me illustrate that confusion by way of analogy.
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让我来用一个例子解释这个误解。
01:28
So let's talk for a moment about race.
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让我们来聊一下种族。
01:29
In the U.S., when we hear the word "race,"
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在美国，当我们听到“种族”这个词
01:31
a lot of people think that means African-American,
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很多人觉得它代表非裔美国人，
01:34
Latino, Asian-American, Native American,
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拉丁美洲人，亚洲籍美国人，美洲原住民
01:36
South Asian, Pacific Islander, on and on.
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南亚人，太平洋岛人，等等。
01:40
A lot of people, when they hear the word "sexual orientation"
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当很多人听到“性取向”这个词，
01:42
think it means gay, lesbian, bisexual.
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他们觉得这代表同性恋和双性恋。
01:45
And a lot of people, when they hear the word "gender,"
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还有很多人听到“性别”这个词，
01:47
think it means women. In each case,
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他们觉它代表着“女人”。
在这些情况下，主流群体都没有被包括在内。
01:49
the dominant group doesn't get paid attention to.
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01:51
Right? As if white people don't have some sort of racial identity
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不是吗？这就好像白人没有某种意义上的种族身份
01:54
or belong to some racial category or construct,
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好像属于某个种族类别或构造，
01:58
as if heterosexual people don't have a sexual orientation,
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好像异性恋者没有性取向，
02:01
as if men don't have a gender.
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好像男人没有性别。
02:03
This is one of the ways that dominant systems maintain
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这是一种主流群体自我维持与自我繁育的方式。
02:06
and reproduce themselves, which is to say
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也就是说主流群体很少受挑战的去思考他们的主流地位。
02:08
the dominant group is rarely challenged to even think about its dominance,
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02:11
because that's one of the key characteristics
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这就是所谓权利与特权的一个重要特点，
02:13
of power and privilege, the ability to go unexamined,
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拥有不被审查的能力，缺乏反省。
02:16
lacking introspection, in fact being rendered invisible
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事实上，我们喜欢假装自己是透明人
02:20
in large measure in the discourse
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虽然这些都是与我们本身有关的问题。
02:22
about issues that are primarily about us.
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02:25
And this is amazing how this works
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令人吃惊的是这“自我无视”的心理
02:27
in domestic and sexual violence,
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在家庭性暴力和性暴力中扮演的角色。
02:28
how men have been largely erased from so much
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男人的角色变得可有可无，
02:31
of the conversation about a subject
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虽然这明明是在一个主要关于他们的话题。
02:32
that is centrally about men.
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02:35
And I'm going to illustrate what I'm talking about
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在此我将用些老手法
02:37
by using the old tech.
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来解释我刚才说的话。
02:38
I'm old school on some fundamental regards.
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在一些基础的问题上我是很传统的。
02:41
I work with -- I make films -- and I work with high tech,
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虽然我会制作电影， 并且与高科技工作，
02:44
but I'm still old school as an educator,
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但是作为一个教育者我还是传统的，
02:46
and I want to share with you this exercise
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在此我想与大家分享一个
02:49
that illustrates on the sentence structure level
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解释句子构造上的练习。
02:52
how the way that we think,
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真的就是我们思考的方式。
02:54
literally the way that we use language,
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当我们使用语言的方式去表达时，
02:56
conspires to keep our attention off of men.
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在我们自己不知情的情况下间接地撇开了男人的注意力。
02:59
This is about domestic violence in particular,
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这特别是关于家庭暴力的问题，
03:01
but you can plug in other analogues.
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但是你可以使用类似的例子。
这来自于著名的女权运动者和语言学家朱利亚佩内洛普。
03:04
This comes from the work of the feminist linguist Julia Penelope.
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03:07
It starts with a very basic English sentence:
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就是一个很简单的英语句子。
03:09
"John beat Mary."
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“约翰打了玛丽。”
03:13
That's a good English sentence.
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这是一个正常的英语句子。
03:14
John is the subject. Beat is the verb.
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约翰是主题。击败是动词
03:16
Mary is the object. Good sentence.
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玛丽是对象。好句子。
03:18
Now we're going to move to the second sentence,
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让我们继续第二个句子，
基本就是同样的东西，但是是用被动式语气：
03:20
which says the same thing in the passive voice.
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03:23
"Mary was beaten by John."
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“玛丽被约翰打。”
03:29
And now a whole lot has happened in one sentence.
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这句话里就发生了很大的一个变化。
03:32
We've gone from "John beat Mary"
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我们从“约翰打玛丽。”
03:34
to "Mary was beaten by John."
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换成“玛丽被约翰打。”
03:36
We've shifted our focus in one sentence from John to Mary,
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我们转移我们的注意力从约翰变成玛丽，
03:39
and you can see John is very close to the end of the sentence,
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还有你可以注意到约翰是位于句子的尾端。
03:42
well, close to dropping off the map of our psychic plain.
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现在让我们把某些东西从我们的思想移走。
03:45
The third sentence, John is dropped,
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第三句，把约翰移走，
03:47
and we have, "Mary was beaten,"
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我们就会有，“玛丽被打”
03:50
and now it's all about Mary.
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现在就只有玛丽了。
03:52
We're not even thinking about John. It's totally focused on Mary.
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我们压根都没想到约翰。将我们的注意力完全集中在玛丽上。
03:55
Over the past generation, the term we've used
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在之前的年代，我们一直把“被打”这词
03:56
synonymous with "beaten" is "battered,"
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当作成"被虐待"。
03:58
so we have "Mary was battered."
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然后我们就有“玛丽被虐待。”
04:03
And the final sentence in this sequence,
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如此推测，最后的句子
04:05
flowing from the others, is,
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就会演变成为
04:07
"Mary is a battered woman."
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“玛丽是个被虐待的女人。”
04:09
So now Mary's very identity -- Mary is a battered woman --
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现在玛丽有个很明确的身份--玛丽是个被虐待的女人--
04:16
is what was done to her by John in the first instance.
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这是和第一句被约翰打是一样的。
04:19
But we've demonstrated that John has long ago left the conversation.
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但是我已经论证约翰很久以前已经离开句子了。
04:22
Now, those of us who work in the domestic and sexual violence
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现在，那些探讨于家庭与性别暴力的人
04:25
field know that victim-blaming is pervasive in this realm,
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必须知道受害者是很容易责备的，
04:28
which is to say, blaming the person to whom something was done
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换句话说，就是责备受害者
04:31
rather than the person who did it.
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而不是加害人。
04:32
And we say things like, why do these women go out with these men?
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然后我们会问，“为什么这些女人会和这些男人约会？
04:34
Why are they attracted to these men?
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为什么她们会被这些男人吸引？
04:35
Why do they keep going back? What was she wearing at that party?
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为什么她们要回去？她会穿什么出席宴会？
04:38
What a stupid thing to do. Why was she drinking
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这是多么愚蠢的行为？为什么她要
04:40
with that group of guys in that hotel room?
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和一群男人在一间酒店房间喝酒？”
04:43
This is victim blaming, and there are numerous reasons for it,
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这是责备着受害者。这存在着很多个因素，
04:46
but one of them is that our whole cognitive structure
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其中一个是因为我们的认知构造
04:48
is set up to blame victims. This is all unconscious.
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是设定于责备受害者。这全都是因为潜意识。
04:51
Our whole cognitive structure is set up to ask questions
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我们的认知构造是设定于询问
04:52
about women and women's choices and what they're doing,
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关于女人和女人的选择和她们在做什么，
04:55
thinking, and wearing.
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想什么，穿什么。
04:57
And I'm not going to shout down people who ask questions
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请搞清楚我不是在呼应人们不问
04:59
about women, okay? It's a legitimate thing to ask.
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女人的问题。这问题是合理的。
05:01
But's let's be clear: Asking questions about Mary
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但是我们要搞清楚：询问玛丽的问题
05:04
is not going to get us anywhere in terms of preventing violence.
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不会防范任何暴力问题。
05:06
We have to ask a different set of questions.
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我们必须问几项问题。
05:09
You can see where I'm going with this, right?
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你可以明白我在如何应付这问题，对吗？
05:10
The questions are not about Mary. They're about John.
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问题不在于玛丽。这都是因为约翰。
05:14
The questions include things like, why does John beat Mary?
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问题包括，为什么约翰会打玛丽？
05:17
Why is domestic violence still a big problem
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为什么家庭暴力依然是严重的问题？
05:19
in the United States and all over the world?
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在美国和全世界？
05:21
What's going on? Why do so many men abuse,
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这世界怎么啦？为什么那么多男人施暴，
05:22
physically, emotionally, verbally, and other ways,
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于身体上，精神上，言语上，等等。
05:25
the women and girls, and the men and boys,
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女人和女生，男人和男生－
05:27
that they claim to love? What's going on with men?
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他们之间的爱呢？到底男人是怎么啦？
05:30
Why do so many adult men sexually abuse little girls and little boys?
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为什么那么多成年男人性侵小女孩和小男孩？
05:34
Why is that a common problem in our society
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为什么这是一个普通的问题？在我们的社会里
05:35
and all over the world today?
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和全世界？
05:37
Why do we hear over and over again
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为什么？为什么我们重复的听到
05:39
about new scandals erupting in major institutions
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新的丑闻发生在主要机构？
05:43
like the Catholic Church or the Penn State football program
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例如天主教教堂或者宾夕法尼亚州立大学的橄榄球节目？
05:45
or the Boy Scouts of America, on and on and on?
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或者美国的男童军，还有等等？
05:48
And then local communities all over the country
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然后在全国的本地社区
05:50
and all over the world, right? We hear about it all the time.
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和全世界，对吗？我们时常听到这问题。
05:53
The sexual abuse of children.
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性虐待小孩子。
05:55
What's going on with men? Why do so many men rape women
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男人到底怎么啦？为什么那么多男人强奸女人？
05:58
in our society and around the world?
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在我们的社会和全世界？
06:00
Why do so many men rape other men?
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为什么那么多男人强奸男人？
06:02
What is going on with men?
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男人到底怎么啦？
06:03
And then what is the role of the various institutions
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然后不同的机构的角色是什么？
06:07
in our society that are helping to produce abusive men
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在我们的社会不断生产施虐者的男人，
06:10
at pandemic rates?
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而且在很高的机率？
06:11
Because this isn't about individual perpetrators.
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因为这不是肇事者个人的行为。
06:13
That's a naive way to understanding what is a much deeper
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这是很单纯的了解一个很深入
06:16
and more systematic social problem.
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和很有系统化的社会问题。
06:17
You know, the perpetrators aren't these
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肇事者不是那些从沼泽爬出来的妖怪，
06:19
monsters who crawl out of the swamp
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06:21
and come into town and do their nasty business
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来到城镇做些坏事，然后撤退回黑暗。
06:24
and then retreat into the darkness.
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06:26
That's a very naive notion, right?
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这是很单纯的想法，对吗？
06:28
Perpetrators are much more normal than that,
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肇事者比这更正常，更普通。
06:30
and everyday than that.
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06:32
So the question is, what are we doing here
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现在的问题是，我们到底在这社会和世界做着什么？
06:35
in our society and in the world?
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06:36
What are the roles of various institutions
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不同的机构在生产施虐男人这个过程中的角色是什么？
06:38
in helping to produce abusive men?
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06:40
What's the role of religious belief systems,
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信仰的角色是什么？
06:42
the sports culture, the pornography culture,
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运动文化，色情文化，
06:45
the family structure, economics, and how that intersects,
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家庭机构，经济，这些都如何影响？
06:47
and race and ethnicity and how that intersects?
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还有种族有何影响？
06:49
How does all this work?
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这全部是如何运作？
06:51
And then, once we start making those kinds of connections
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然后，当我们开始思考这些连接性，
06:54
and asking those important and big questions,
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和问些重要的宏观问题，
06:57
then we can talk about how we can be transformative,
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我们才可以探讨如何改变。
06:59
in other words, how can we do something differently?
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换句话说，我们如何运作些不同的东西？
07:01
How can we change the practices?
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我们如何改掉行为？
07:03
How can we change the socialization of boys
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我们要如何改变男生们的交际？
07:05
and the definitions of manhood that lead to these current outcomes?
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还有男人的定义如何造成现在的成果？
07:09
These are the kind of questions that we need
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这些都是我们必须问的问题
07:11
to be asking and the kind of work that we need to be doing,
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和我们必须做的工作，
07:13
but if we're endlessly focused on what women are doing
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但是如果我们不断的关注女人在做什么，在想什么
07:16
and thinking in relationships or elsewhere,
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然后再去考虑这些事件，
07:19
we're not going to get to that piece.
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我们无法解决问题。
07:21
Now, I understand that a lot of women
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现在，我明白很多女人
07:23
who have been trying to speaking out about these issues,
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已经在尝试说出这问题，
07:25
today and yesterday and for years and years,
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在今天，昨天，还有很多年很多年，
07:28
often get shouted down for their efforts.
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但是她们的努力常常被压制。
07:30
They get called nasty names like "male-basher"
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她们得了不雅的名称，如“攻击男人者”
07:33
and "man-hater,"
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和“憎恨男人者”
07:34
and the disgusting and offensive "feminazi." Right?
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然后恶心和厌恶的女人主义，对吗？
07:41
And you know what all this is about?
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然后你这到这是为了什么吗？
07:43
It's called kill the messenger.
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这叫抹杀我们的“信使”。
07:44
It's because the women who are standing up
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就是因为女人抗护她们自己的时候，
07:46
and speaking out for themselves and for other women
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在为其他女人和其他男人和小男孩说话的时候，
07:48
as well as for men and boys, it's a statement to them
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这就是在命令她们停下，闭嘴。
07:52
to sit down and shut up, keep the current system in place,
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这就是在维护现在的系统，
07:55
because we don't like it when people rock the boat.
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因为不喜欢当有人砸船。
07:57
We don't like it when people challenge our power.
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我们不喜欢有人对抗我们的权力。
07:59
You'd better sit down and shut up, basically.
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你最好坐下来和闭嘴。
08:02
And thank goodness that women haven't done that.
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很幸运的，女人没那么做。
08:04
Thank goodness that we live in a world
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很幸运的，我们存在一个很多女人领袖
08:05
where there's so much women's leadership that can counteract that.
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可以互动的世界。
08:09
But one of the powerful roles that men can play in this work
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但是有一个角色我们男人可以做的，
08:11
is that we can say some things
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那就是我们也可以说些什么
08:13
that sometimes women can't say,
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女人不能说的东西。
08:15
or, better yet, we can be heard saying some things
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更好的是，别人可以听到我们说一些
08:17
that women often can't be heard saying.
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别人不愿意听女人说的话。
08:19
Now, I appreciate that that's a problem. It's sexism.
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现在，我很珍惜这个是一个问题。这是性别歧视。
08:22
But it's the truth. And so one of the things that I say to men,
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但这就是事实。然后有件事我时常对男人说，
08:24
and my colleagues and I always say this,
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我和我的同事常这么说，
08:26
is we need more men who have the courage and the strength
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是我们需要更多有勇气和力量的男人，
08:28
to start standing up and saying some of this stuff,
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站起来说这些问题，
08:31
and standing with women and not against them
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然后与女人并肩作战而不是对抗她们，
08:33
and pretending that somehow this is
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或当作这是个
08:35
a battle between the sexes and other kinds of nonsense.
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性别之间的战斗或其他无稽的东西。
08:37
We live in the world together.
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我们活在同一个世界里。
08:39
And by the way, one of the things that really bothers me
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然而，最令我头痛的一件事是
08:41
about some of the rhetoric against feminists and others
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那些花言巧语反对女权运动。
08:44
who have built the battered women's
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将那些在世界各地帮助被虐女人
08:45
and rape crisis movements around the world
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提倡反强奸的活动的女性
08:48
is that somehow, like I said, that they're anti-male.
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讲成好比她们在对抗男性。
08:50
What about all the boys who are profoundly affected
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想想看那些受负面影响的小男孩，
08:53
in a negative way by what some adult man is doing
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受年纪大的男人们对
08:55
against their mother, themselves, their sisters?
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他们的妈妈，姐姐和他们做出不良行为？
08:58
What about all those boys?
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这些小男孩怎样呢？
09:01
What about all the young men and boys
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这些年轻的小男孩
09:02
who have been traumatized by adult men's violence?
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受到男人暴行影响所受到的创伤呢？
09:04
You know what? The same system that produces
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你知道吗？造就虐待女人的
09:06
men who abuse women produces men who abuse other men.
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和造就虐待男人的是同一个系统。
09:09
And if we want to talk about male victims,
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还有如果我们要谈男性受害者
09:10
let's talk about male victims.
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－让我们谈谈男性受害者－
09:12
Most male victims of violence are the victims of other men's violence.
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很多男性受害者被施暴于其他男性。
09:16
So that's something that both women and men have in common.
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所以如果男性和女性有些共同点，
09:18
We are both victims of men's violence.
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我们都是男性暴力下的受害者。
09:20
So we have it in our direct self-interest,
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所以我们都有各自的目的。
09:22
not to mention the fact that most men that I know
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事实上不得不说，我们知道很多男人拥有
09:25
have women and girls that we care deeply about,
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我们关心的女人和女孩子。
09:27
in our families and our friendship circles and every other way.
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在我们的家庭，我们的朋友圈子还有其他的。
09:31
So there's so many reasons why we need men to speak out.
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所以有很多原因解释为什么我们需要男人提出这问题。
09:34
It seems obvious saying it out loud. Doesn't it?
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这看起来很明显的需要说出来。不是吗？
09:37
Now, the nature of the work that I do and my colleagues do
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现在，我和我的同事正在做的是，
09:41
in the sports culture and the U.S. military, in schools,
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在传统的运动和美国军事和在学校，
09:45
we pioneered this approach called the bystander approach
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我们带领着这方略名为“旁观者策略”
09:47
to gender violence prevention.
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来防止性别暴力。
09:49
And I just want to give you the highlights of the bystander approach,
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还有我要特别给你们提出这策略的要点，
09:51
because it's a big thematic shift,
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因为这是很大的主题改观，
09:55
although there's lots of particulars,
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虽然有很多详细的要点，
09:57
but the heart of it is, instead of seeing men as perpetrators
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但这中心点是，不仅仅将男人看作施虐者，
10:00
and women as victims,
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女人是受害者，
10:02
or women as perpetrators, men as victims,
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或女人是施虐者，男人是受害者，
10:05
or any combination in there.
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或者任何一个组合。
10:07
I'm using the gender binary. I know there's more
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我在用着性别两极化。我知道的我们有的不仅仅是
10:08
than men and women, there's more than male and female.
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男人和女人。这世上不仅仅有男性和女性。
10:11
And there are women who are perpetrators,
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还有很多女人是施虐者，
10:12
and of course there are men who are victims.
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当然还有很多男人是受虐者。
10:15
There's a whole spectrum.
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这都是一系列的。
10:16
But instead of seeing it in the binary fashion,
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但是，然而将之当作是性别两极化，
10:18
we focus on all of us as what we call bystanders,
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我们注重在于我们就好比称之为旁观者，
10:21
and a bystander is defined as anybody who is not
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在这旁观者的意思是任何人在任何情况下，
10:24
a perpetrator or a victim in a given situation,
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如果不属于施虐者或被虐者，
10:27
so in other words friends, teammates, colleagues,
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换句话说就是朋友，队友，同事，
10:30
coworkers, family members, those of us
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一起工作的，家庭成员，
10:32
who are not directly involved in a dyad of abuse,
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甚至是不间接有关系的人们，
10:35
but we are embedded in social, family, work, school,
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但是我们在社交，家庭，工作，学校
10:38
and other peer culture relationships with people
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和其他同辈传统关系中与受虐者
10:41
who might be in that situation. What do we do?
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都是有所关联的。我们能做什么？
10:43
How do we speak up? How do we challenge our friends?
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我们该说什么？我们如何挑战我们的朋友？
10:45
How do we support our friends? But how do we not
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我们如何支持我们的朋友？我们如何能够
在暴力面前不保持沉默？
10:47
remain silent in the face of abuse?
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10:50
Now, when it comes to men and male culture,
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现在，当我们面对男性的传统，
10:52
the goal is to get men who are not abusive
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我们的目的是不暴力男人也要去
10:55
to challenge men who are.
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挑战那些施虐的男人。
10:56
And when I say abusive, I don't mean just
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还有当我说暴力倾向，我不是只说打女人的男人。
10:58
men who are beating women.
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10:59
We're not just saying a man whose friend
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我们不是只说一个男人的朋友
11:03
is abusing his girlfriend needs to stop the guy
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正在对他女友施暴然后他需
11:06
at the moment of attack.
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阻止他朋友的施暴行为。
11:07
That's a naive way of creating a social change.
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这是很幼稚的改变社会的方法。
11:11
It's along a continuum, we're trying to get men
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这是个长远的过程，
11:14
to interrupt each other.
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我们在尝试让男人们互相影响。
11:15
So, for example, if you're a guy and you're in a group of guys
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所以，比方说，如果你是个男人然后和一班男人在
11:18
playing poker, talking, hanging out, no women present,
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玩扑克牌，谈天，逛街，没有女人在，
11:21
and another guy says something sexist or degrading
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然后一些男人说一些性别歧视或贬低
11:24
or harassing about women,
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或侮辱女人的话，
11:27
instead of laughing along or pretending you didn't hear it,
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与其加入取笑或当做没听见，
11:30
we need men to say, "Hey, that's not funny.
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我们须要男人说：“Hey，这一点都不好笑。
11:32
You know, that could be my sister you're talking about,
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你知道吗，你可能是在说着我的姐姐妹妹，
11:34
and could you joke about something else?
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你们可说些别的笑话吗？
11:36
Or could you talk about something else?
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或你们可以说其它话题吗？
11:37
I don't appreciate that kind of talk."
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我不赞成这类的话题。“
11:39
Just like if you're a white person and another white person
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就好象你是白人和另外一个白人
11:42
makes a racist comment, you'd hope, I hope,
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说个种族歧视的话题，你希望，我也希望，
11:44
that white people would interrupt that racist enactment
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有个白人会打岔那个话题，
11:48
by a fellow white person.
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是要来自个白人。
11:49
Just like with heterosexism, if you're a heterosexual person
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就好象你和异性恋的人一起，如果你是异性恋的人，
11:51
and you yourself don't enact harassing or abusive behaviors
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即使你不会对拥有不同性取向的人们
11:55
towards people of varying sexual orientations,
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做出些骚扰或暴力行为，
11:57
if you don't say something in the face of other heterosexual people doing that,
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如果你不在其他异性恋说些东西时即使打断，
12:00
then, in a sense, isn't your silence
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那么，照理来说，你的沉默是不是
12:02
a form of consent and complicity?
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代表着同意？
12:04
Well, the bystander approach is trying to give people tools
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好的，旁观者的方法是尝试给于人们一个工具
12:06
to interrupt that process and to speak up
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来打岔这个过程和发言，
12:09
and to create a peer culture climate
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是创造出一个
12:11
where the abusive behavior will be seen as unacceptable,
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不接受暴力行为的文化。
12:13
not just because it's illegal, but because it's wrong
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不是只是因为暴力是违法的，而是因为这是错的，
12:17
and unacceptable in the peer culture.
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是不能被我们的文化所接受的。
12:19
And if we can get to the place where men
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然后如果我们能够到达一个
男人做出性别歧视会失去地位的境界，
12:21
who act out in sexist ways will lose status,
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12:23
young men and boys who act out in sexist
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年轻男人和小男孩做出性别歧视的时候，
12:25
and harassing ways towards girls and women,
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当他们对女人和女生，
12:27
as well as towards other boys and men,
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和对其他小男生和男人骚扰的时候，
12:29
will lose status as a result of it, guess what?
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他们就会会失去地位会造成，猜猜看结果会如何？
12:32
We'll see a radical diminution of the abuse.
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我们会看到有效的缩减性别暴力行为。
12:35
Because the typical perpetrator is not sick and twisted.
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因为普通的作犯者不是生病或性格扭曲，
12:37
He's a normal guy in every other way. Isn't he?
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在任何角度他都是个普通的男人。不是吗？
12:40
Now, among the many great things that Martin Luther King
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在马丁路德今短短的一生中所说过所有伟大的话语，
12:44
said in his short life was,
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其中有一句是：
12:45
"In the end, what will hurt the most
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1795
“最后，最令人痛心的不是
12:47
is not the words of our enemies
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敌人的话语
12:49
but the silence of our friends."
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但是我们朋友的沉默。”
12:50
In the end, what will hurt the most is not the words
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最后，最痛心的不是敌人的话语
12:53
of our enemies but the silence of our friends.
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2310
而是我们朋友的沉默。
12:55
There's been an awful lot of silence in male culture
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现在在男人文化中已经有足够多的沉默
12:57
about this ongoing tragedy of men's violence
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面对这个不断的男人对女人和孩子施暴的悲剧
13:00
against women and children, hasn't there?
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不是吗？
13:02
There's been an awful lot of silence.
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已经有足够的沉默了。
13:03
And all I'm saying is that we need to break that silence,
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我只想说出的是我们需要打破这个沉默，
13:07
and we need more men to do that.
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同时我们需要更多的男人这样做。
13:09
Now, it's easier said than done,
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说是比做的容易。
13:12
because I'm saying it now, but I'm telling you it's not easy
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因为我现在这样说，但我可以跟你说这不容易。
13:15
in male culture for guys to challenge each other,
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要在男人的文化中去挑战其他的男人。
13:18
which is one of the reasons why
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这也解释了，
13:20
part of the paradigm shift that has to happen
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所谓转移的发生
13:22
is not just understanding these issues as men's issues,
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不是只是要明白男人的问题，
13:25
but they're also leadership issues for men.
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同时也要理解这是男人的领袖问题。
13:27
Because ultimately, the responsibility for taking a stand
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因为最终的，在这些话题拥有立场
13:30
on these issues should not fall on the shoulders
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的责任不应该落在
13:32
of little boys or teenage boys in high school
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小孩子身上，或是在高中和大学里的年轻男孩身上。
13:35
or college men. It should be on adult men with power.
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这应该落在有权力的男人。
13:38
Adult men with power are the ones we need to be holding accountable
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有权力的男人是我们必须考虑的责任人，
13:41
for being leaders on these issues,
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在这个领导层面的问题上。
13:42
because when somebody speaks up in a peer culture
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因为当有人要对我们的文化发言，
13:45
and challenges and interrupts, he or she
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挑战和打岔，他或她
13:47
is being a leader, really, right?
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是在作为一个领袖，对吗?
13:50
But on a big scale, we need more adult men with power
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但是在于更大的事件，我们需要更多有权力的男人
13:53
to start prioritizing these issues,
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开始提起这些话题，
13:55
and we haven't seen that yet, have we?
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但是我们还没有看到，对吗？
13:57
Now, I was at a dinner a number of years ago,
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当我在很多年前用晚餐时，
14:01
and I work extensively with the U.S. military, all the services.
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我和美国士兵有近距离工作接触。
14:04
And I was at this dinner and this woman said to me --
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然后我在这个晚餐然后一个女人对我说，
14:07
I think she thought she was a little clever -- she said,
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-我觉得她自认为自己有点小聪明- 她说，
14:10
"So how long have you been doing sensitivity training
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“那么你已经和士兵们做了感性
14:13
with the Marines?"
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练习有多久了？”
14:15
And I said, "With all due respect,
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然后我说，“对全部人尊敬的，
14:18
I don't do sensitivity training with the Marines.
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我对士兵不做感性练习
14:20
I run a leadership program in the Marine Corps."
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我对士兵们实行着领袖方案。”
14:23
Now, I know it's a bit pompous, my response,
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现在，我知道有点浮夸，我的回应，
14:25
but it's an important distinction, because I don't believe
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但是这是个很大的分别，因为我不相信
14:28
that what we need is sensitivity training.
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我们做的是感性训练。
14:30
We need leadership training, because, for example,
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我们需要的是领袖训练，因为，比方说，
14:32
when a professional coach or a manager of a baseball team
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当一个有经验的揽球队或足球队的教练或经理
14:35
or a football team -- and I work extensively in that realm as well --
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--我在满长工作在这范围--
14:38
makes a sexist comment, makes a homophobic statement,
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提出性别歧视的评语，或者歧视同性恋的话题，
14:42
makes a racist comment, there will be discussions
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说些种族歧视的评论，那就会有这些讨论
14:44
on the sports blogs and in sports talk radio.
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登播在部落格和运动频道
14:47
And some people will say, "Well, he needs sensitivity training."
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然后有人就会说，“他需要感性训练。”
14:49
And other people will say, "Well get off it.
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然后有人就会说，“不要说这些。
14:50
You know, that's political correctness run amok,
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你知道吗，有个政治人物疯狂了，
14:52
and he made a stupid statement. Move on."
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然后他说了些傻话，继续。“
14:54
My argument is, he doesn't need sensitivity training.
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我的论点是，他不需要感性训练。
14:57
He needs leadership training,
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他需要领袖训练。
14:58
because he's being a bad leader, because in a society
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因为他是个坏领袖，因为在社会中
15:01
with gender diversity and sexual diversity --
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有性别多元化，性取向多元化，
15:04
(Applause) —
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（鼓掌）-
15:05
and racial and ethnic diversity, you make
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还有种族的多元化，你做出
15:07
those kind of comments, you're failing at your leadership.
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那些评论，你的领导能力已经失败了。
15:09
If we can make this point that I'm making
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如果我们能够做出这些论点，我说这些，
15:12
to powerful men and women in our society
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是对于全部有权力的男人和女人在我们的社会中，
15:15
at all levels of institutional authority and power,
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在各阶层的有权力人物，
15:18
it's going to change, it's going to change
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这将会改变，这将会改变
15:20
the paradigm of people's thinking.
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人们的想法。
15:22
You know, for example, I work a lot
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你知道吗，比方说，我和很多
15:24
in college and university athletics throughout North America.
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北美的学校和大学的运动员做过工作，
15:28
We know so much about how to prevent
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我们知道很多防止
15:30
domestic and sexual violence, right?
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家庭和性别暴力，对吗？
15:32
There's no excuse for a college or university
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没有借口可以给学校和大学说，
15:36
to not have domestic and sexual violence prevention training
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不做防止家庭和性别暴力的训练
15:38
mandated for all student athletes, coaches, administrators,
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给全部运动员学生，教练，工作人员
15:41
as part of their educational process.
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作为他们一部分的教育系统。
15:43
We know enough to know that we can easily do that.
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我们已经知道很多，我们可以很容易的做。
15:46
But you know what's missing? The leadership.
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你知道缺少什么吗？领导能力。
15:48
But it's not the leadership of student athletes.
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但是这不是学生运动员的领导能力
15:50
It's the leadership of the athletic director,
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这是运动教练的领导能力，
15:51
the president of the university, the people in charge
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大学会长的领导能力，
15:54
who make decisions about resources
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做资源决定的负责人，
15:56
and who make decisions about priorities in the institutional settings.
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和做校园决定的负责人。
15:59
That's a failure, in most cases, of men's leadership.
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这是一个失败，在很多的例案，在男人的领导能力
16:03
Look at Penn State. Penn State is the mother
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看看宾州州立大学。
16:06
of all teachable moments for the bystander approach.
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宾州州立大学是很多旁观者方法可以学习的母亲。
16:08
You had so many situations in that realm
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你会发现很多真实的情况中，
16:11
where men in powerful positions failed to act
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很多有权力的男人无法保护
16:14
to protect children, in this case, boys.
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他们的儿子，在这案子中，小男孩。
16:17
It's unbelievable, really. But when you get into it,
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这是很难被相信的，真的。但是当你深入了解时，
16:19
you realize there are pressures on men.
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你会发觉有很多压力施于男人。
16:21
There are constraints within peer cultures on men,
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有些束缚发生在于男人的文化中
16:24
which is why we need to encourage men
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所以我们必须鼓励男人
16:26
to break through those pressures.
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去突破这些压力。
16:28
And one of the ways to do that is to say
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其中一个方法是说
16:29
there's an awful lot of men who care deeply about these issues.
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有很多男人真的关心这些话题。
16:32
I know this. I work with men,
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我知道这。我和这些男人一起工作。
16:33
and I've been working with tens of thousands,
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还有我已经和一万个，
16:35
hundreds of thousands of men for many, many decades now.
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十万个男人工作了很多很多年代。
16:38
It's scary, when you think about it, how many years.
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其实停恐怖的，当我想想已经多少年了，
16:41
But there's so many men who care deeply about these issues,
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但是还有很多男人真的关心这些话题。
16:45
but caring deeply is not enough.
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但是仅仅关心是不够的。
16:47
We need more men with the guts,
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我们需要有勇气的男人，
有胆量，有能力，有道德的
16:50
with the courage, with the strength, with the moral integrity
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16:53
to break our complicit silence and challenge each other
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去破解这些沉默然后挑战他们。
16:57
and stand with women and not against them.
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然后和女人站在同一阵线，不是对抗她们。
16:59
By the way, we owe it to women.
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但是，我们欠女人的。
17:01
There's no question about it.
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这是无可否认的。
17:02
But we also owe it to our sons.
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但我们也欠我们的孩子。
17:04
We also owe it to young men who are growing up
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我们也欠成长中的男孩，
17:06
all over the world in situations where they didn't make the choice
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在世界各地的男孩，那些没有得选择的男孩，
17:09
to be a man in a culture that tells them
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作为一个男人在一个文化中告诉他们
17:12
that manhood is a certain way.
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男子气概是肯定的。
17:13
They didn't make the choice.
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他们没得做选择。
17:14
We that have a choice have an opportunity
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我们有机会做这个选择。
17:18
and a responsibility to them as well.
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同时我们也对他们有责任。
17:20
I hope that, going forward, men and women,
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我希望，往前看，男人和女人，
17:23
working together, can begin the change
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一起工作，可以开始做出改变，
17:25
and the transformation that will happen
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然后转变会发生。
17:27
so that future generations won't have the level of tragedy
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然后未来的时代不会有同样的悲剧，
17:29
that we deal with on a daily basis.
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就好像每天在我们的生活情况下发生。
17:31
I know we can do it. We can do better.
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我知道我们可以做到。我们可以做得更好。
17:33
Thank you very much. (Applause)
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谢谢。（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jackson Katz - Anti-sexism educatorJackson Katz asks a very important question that gets at the root of why sexual abuse, rape and domestic abuse remain a problem: What's going on with men?
Why you should listen
Jackson Katz is an educator, author, filmmaker and cultural theorist who is a pioneer in the fields of gender violence prevention education and media literacy. He is co-founder of Mentors in Violence Prevention (MVP), which enlists men in the struggle to prevent men’s violence against women. Celebrating its 20th anniversary this year, MVP has become a widely used sexual and domestic violence prevention initiative in college and professional athletics across North America. Katz and his MVP colleagues have also worked extensively with schools, youth sports associations and community organizations, as well as with all major branches of the U.S. military.
Katz is the creator of popular educational videos including Tough Guise: Violence, Media and the Crisis in Masculinity. He is the author of The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help and Leading Men: Presidential Campaigns and the Politics of Manhood. He has also appeared in several documentaries, including Hip Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes and MissRepresentation.
Jackson Katz | Speaker | TED.com