TEDxFiDiWomen
Jackson Katz: Violence against women -- it's a men's issue
傑克森·卡茲 (Jackson Katz): 對婦女施暴——是男人的問題
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家暴及性虐待經常被稱作「婦女問題」，但傑克森·卡茲在這段直言不諱的演講中指出，本質上這是男人的問題，並表明這些暴力行為與男子氣概的定義密不可分。這是對我們所有人—無論男女—的呼召，不要再接受這樣的行為，並成為改變情勢的領導人。
Jackson Katz - Anti-sexism educator
Jackson Katz asks a very important question that gets at the root of why sexual abuse, rape and domestic abuse remain a problem: What's going on with men? Full bio
Jackson Katz asks a very important question that gets at the root of why sexual abuse, rape and domestic abuse remain a problem: What's going on with men? Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I'm going to share with you
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我要與大家分享
00:13
a paradigm-shifting perspective
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從典範轉移觀點
00:15
on the issues of gender violence --
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看性別暴力問題——
00:17
sexual assault, domestic violence, relationship abuse,
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性侵犯、家暴、配偶或同居人虐待
00:20
sexual harassment, sexual abuse of children.
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性騷擾、兒童性虐待
00:22
That whole range of issues that I'll refer to in shorthand
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這一系列的問題我簡稱為
00:24
as "gender violence issues,"
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性別暴力議題
00:26
they've been seen as women's issues that some good men
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這些被視為「好男人會出手幫助」的婦女問題
00:29
help out with, but I have a problem with that frame
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但我不懂這樣的思考框架
00:32
and I don't accept it.
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也無法接受
00:33
I don't see these as women's issues that some good men help out with.
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我不認為這些是婦女問題
而好男人願意幫助的
而好男人願意幫助的
00:36
In fact, I'm going to argue that these are men's issues,
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事實上我要說服大家這件事從一開始
00:38
first and foremost.
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就是男人的問題
00:40
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
00:43
Now obviously, they're also women's issues,
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當然，這也是女人的議題
00:45
so I appreciate that, but calling
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我瞭解這狀況，但稱
00:48
gender violence a women's issue is part of the problem,
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性別暴力為婦女問題
本身就是問題的一部分
本身就是問題的一部分
00:50
for a number of reasons.
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有幾點原因
00:52
The first is that it gives men an excuse not to pay attention.
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第一，這給男人不理會的藉口
00:55
Right? A lot of men hear the term "women's issues"
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是吧？很多男人一聽到「婦女問題」這個名詞
00:57
and we tend to tune it out, and we think,
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就把耳朵關上了，我們會想
00:59
"Hey, I'm a guy. That's for the girls," or "That's for the women."
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「嘿，我是男的，那是女孩子的問題。」
或「那是女人的問題。」
或「那是女人的問題。」
01:01
And a lot of men literally don't get beyond the first sentence
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結果是很多男人聽完第一句話後
01:04
as a result.
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就不再聽下去了
01:06
It's almost like a chip in our brain is activated,
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幾乎就像當我們聽到
「婦女問題」這名詞的時候
「婦女問題」這名詞的時候
01:08
and the neural pathways take our attention in a different direction
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腦子裡的晶片就被啟動
神經通路把我們的注意力
神經通路把我們的注意力
01:11
when we hear the term "women's issues."
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帶往不同的方向
01:13
This is also true, by the way, of the word "gender,"
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順帶一提，這同時也應用
在「性別」這個單詞
在「性別」這個單詞
01:15
because a lot of people hear the word "gender"
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因為很多人一聽到
「性別」這詞
「性別」這詞
01:17
and they think it means "women."
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就認為這是指「女人」
01:19
So they think that gender issues is synonymous with women's issues.
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所以他們認為性別問題
是「婦女問題」的同義詞
是「婦女問題」的同義詞
01:23
There's some confusion about the term gender.
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大家對性別這個名詞有點混淆
01:25
And actually, let me illustrate that confusion by way of analogy.
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讓我以類比法實際地描繪一下這種混淆
01:28
So let's talk for a moment about race.
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我們來談一下種族
01:29
In the U.S., when we hear the word "race,"
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在美國，當我們聽到「種族」這個單詞
01:31
a lot of people think that means African-American,
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很多人會認為是在說非裔美國人
01:34
Latino, Asian-American, Native American,
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拉丁裔、亞裔美國人、美洲原住民
01:36
South Asian, Pacific Islander, on and on.
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南亞及太平洋島民等等
01:40
A lot of people, when they hear the word "sexual orientation"
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很多人聽到「性取向」這個單詞
01:42
think it means gay, lesbian, bisexual.
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就認為這是指男同性戀、女同性戀或雙性戀
01:45
And a lot of people, when they hear the word "gender,"
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當很多人聽到「性別」這個單詞時
01:47
think it means women. In each case,
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會認為這是指女人。
在上述每一個例子裡
在上述每一個例子裡
01:49
the dominant group doesn't get paid attention to.
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優勢群體不會注意到這些
01:51
Right? As if white people don't have some sort of racial identity
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對吧？就像白人沒有什麼種族認同的問題
01:54
or belong to some racial category or construct,
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也不會被歸類到一些種族或社會結構
01:58
as if heterosexual people don't have a sexual orientation,
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就像異性戀者沒有性取向
02:01
as if men don't have a gender.
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男人沒有性別一樣
02:03
This is one of the ways that dominant systems maintain
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這是優勢群體維持
02:06
and reproduce themselves, which is to say
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及複製優勢的方法之一，就是說
02:08
the dominant group is rarely challenged to even think about its dominance,
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優勢群體極少受到質疑
進而思考自己的優勢地位
進而思考自己的優勢地位
02:11
because that's one of the key characteristics
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因為這是有權有勢的
02:13
of power and privilege, the ability to go unexamined,
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關鍵特徵之一，就這些主要和我們
有關的問題
有關的問題
02:16
lacking introspection, in fact being rendered invisible
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能夠未經思索，不需內省反思
02:20
in large measure in the discourse
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事實上還大幅呈現出
02:22
about issues that are primarily about us.
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視而不見的狀況
02:25
And this is amazing how this works
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而你會很驚異這種思維
02:27
in domestic and sexual violence,
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如何在家暴及性暴力上作用
02:28
how men have been largely erased from so much
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在這個以男性為主題的談話中
02:31
of the conversation about a subject
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男性是如何大量地
02:32
that is centrally about men.
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被抹去其主體性
02:35
And I'm going to illustrate what I'm talking about
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我現在就要用這個古老的科技
02:37
by using the old tech.
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跟各位解釋我的意思
02:38
I'm old school on some fundamental regards.
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我對於某些基本事項的想法很老式
02:41
I work with -- I make films -- and I work with high tech,
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我工作時──我是拍電影的──
運用很多高科技
運用很多高科技
02:44
but I'm still old school as an educator,
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但作為教育家，我還是很老派
02:46
and I want to share with you this exercise
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而我想跟大家分享這段練習
02:49
that illustrates on the sentence structure level
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就是以句子結構層級來解釋
02:52
how the way that we think,
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我們是如何思考
02:54
literally the way that we use language,
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我們正確地使用語言的方法
02:56
conspires to keep our attention off of men.
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圖謀把注意力從男人轉移到別處
02:59
This is about domestic violence in particular,
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這裡特別以家暴來舉例
03:01
but you can plug in other analogues.
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但你也可以套用在其他相似情況上
03:04
This comes from the work of the feminist linguist Julia Penelope.
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這節自女性主義語言學家
朱莉亞‧賓娜羅普 (Julia Penelope) 的研究
朱莉亞‧賓娜羅普 (Julia Penelope) 的研究
03:07
It starts with a very basic English sentence:
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從非常基本的英語句子開始：
03:09
"John beat Mary."
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「約翰打瑪麗。」
03:13
That's a good English sentence.
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這是很好的英語句子
03:14
John is the subject. Beat is the verb.
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約翰是主詞，打是動詞
03:16
Mary is the object. Good sentence.
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瑪麗是受詞。好句子
03:18
Now we're going to move to the second sentence,
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現在我們來看第二句
03:20
which says the same thing in the passive voice.
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說的是同一件事，但以被動態說
03:23
"Mary was beaten by John."
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「瑪麗被約翰打。」
03:29
And now a whole lot has happened in one sentence.
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現在這句裡隱藏了很多東西
03:32
We've gone from "John beat Mary"
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我們從「約翰打瑪麗。」
03:34
to "Mary was beaten by John."
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到「瑪麗被約翰打。」
03:36
We've shifted our focus in one sentence from John to Mary,
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我們已經把這個句子的焦點從約翰轉成瑪麗
03:39
and you can see John is very close to the end of the sentence,
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你可以看到約翰被放在句子最末
03:42
well, close to dropping off the map of our psychic plain.
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可以說幾乎要從我們的意識裡跑出去了
03:45
The third sentence, John is dropped,
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第三句話，約翰真的不見了
03:47
and we have, "Mary was beaten,"
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而我們得到「瑪麗被打了。」這句話
03:50
and now it's all about Mary.
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所以現在變成只跟瑪麗有關
03:52
We're not even thinking about John. It's totally focused on Mary.
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我們甚至不再想到約翰
所有的焦點都在瑪麗身上
所有的焦點都在瑪麗身上
03:55
Over the past generation, the term we've used
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過去這一代，我們用的名詞中
03:56
synonymous with "beaten" is "battered,"
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「被打」與「被扁」為同義字
03:58
so we have "Mary was battered."
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所以我們說瑪麗「被扁了」
04:03
And the final sentence in this sequence,
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而這系列的最後一句話
04:05
flowing from the others, is,
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已經與其它句無關聯了，就是
04:07
"Mary is a battered woman."
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「瑪麗是個被扁的女人。」
04:09
So now Mary's very identity -- Mary is a battered woman --
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所以雖然瑪麗的真正身份──瑪麗是個被扁的女人
04:16
is what was done to her by John in the first instance.
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已在第一句話裡交代
即是「被約翰打了的人」
即是「被約翰打了的人」
04:19
But we've demonstrated that John has long ago left the conversation.
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但我們已經示範了約翰早就從句子裡拿掉了
04:22
Now, those of us who work in the domestic and sexual violence
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那麼，我們這些處理家暴及性暴力的人
04:25
field know that victim-blaming is pervasive in this realm,
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都知道責備受害者
是這領域裡普遍存在的現象
是這領域裡普遍存在的現象
04:28
which is to say, blaming the person to whom something was done
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也就是說，大家都責備受害者
04:31
rather than the person who did it.
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而不是施暴者
04:32
And we say things like, why do these women go out with these men?
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我們會說這樣的話
為什麼這些女人要跟這種男人出去？
為什麼這些女人要跟這種男人出去？
04:34
Why are they attracted to these men?
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為什麼她們會受這種男人吸引？
04:35
Why do they keep going back? What was she wearing at that party?
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為什麼她們還要回去？她在派對上穿什麼？
04:38
What a stupid thing to do. Why was she drinking
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做這個多蠢啊！為什麼她要跟
04:40
with that group of guys in that hotel room?
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那群男人在那個旅館房間裡喝酒？
04:43
This is victim blaming, and there are numerous reasons for it,
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這就是責備受害者，而這麼做的理由很多
04:46
but one of them is that our whole cognitive structure
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但其中一個理由是
我們建立了整個認知結構
我們建立了整個認知結構
04:48
is set up to blame victims. This is all unconscious.
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去責備受害者，而這是完全不自覺的
04:51
Our whole cognitive structure is set up to ask questions
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我們建立了整個認知結構，去問一些關於
04:52
about women and women's choices and what they're doing,
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女人本身、女人的選擇及
她們正在做的事情
她們正在做的事情
04:55
thinking, and wearing.
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想什麼、穿什麼
04:57
And I'm not going to shout down people who ask questions
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我不是要用口水
把那些問女人問題的人淹死
把那些問女人問題的人淹死
04:59
about women, okay? It's a legitimate thing to ask.
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好嗎？這些問題很合理
05:01
But's let's be clear: Asking questions about Mary
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但讓我們澄清一點：
05:04
is not going to get us anywhere in terms of preventing violence.
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從預防暴力的角度看，發問一些
關於瑪麗的問題根本起不了作用
關於瑪麗的問題根本起不了作用
05:06
We have to ask a different set of questions.
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我們必須問不一樣的問題
05:09
You can see where I'm going with this, right?
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你瞭解我接下來想說什麼，對吧？
05:10
The questions are not about Mary. They're about John.
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這些並不是瑪麗的問題
這些問題是關於約翰的
這些問題是關於約翰的
05:14
The questions include things like, why does John beat Mary?
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這些問題包括了許多事情
例如為什麼約翰要打瑪麗？
例如為什麼約翰要打瑪麗？
05:17
Why is domestic violence still a big problem
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為什麼家暴在美國以致全世界
05:19
in the United States and all over the world?
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仍然是個大問題？
05:21
What's going on? Why do so many men abuse,
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這是怎麼回事？為什麼這麼多男人要在
05:22
physically, emotionally, verbally, and other ways,
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心理上、情緒上、話語上
或以其他方法虐待
或以其他方法虐待
05:25
the women and girls, and the men and boys,
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女人及女孩，男人及男孩
05:27
that they claim to love? What's going on with men?
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他們宣稱那些仍愛的人？
男人是怎麼了？
男人是怎麼了？
05:30
Why do so many adult men sexually abuse little girls and little boys?
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為什麼這麼多男人要性虐待
小女孩及小男孩？
小女孩及小男孩？
05:34
Why is that a common problem in our society
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為什麼這個問題今天普遍
05:35
and all over the world today?
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存在我們的社會及全世界？
05:37
Why do we hear over and over again
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為什麼我們一再聽到
05:39
about new scandals erupting in major institutions
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有名的大機構爆發新醜聞
05:43
like the Catholic Church or the Penn State football program
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如天主教會或賓州州大美式足球隊
05:45
or the Boy Scouts of America, on and on and on?
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或美國童子軍等等？
05:48
And then local communities all over the country
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還有在全國各地及全世界的
05:50
and all over the world, right? We hear about it all the time.
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地方社區組織，對吧？我們一直聽見
05:53
The sexual abuse of children.
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「兒童性虐待」這種事
05:55
What's going on with men? Why do so many men rape women
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男人是怎麼了？在我們的社會及全世界
05:58
in our society and around the world?
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為什麼這麼多男人要強暴女人？
06:00
Why do so many men rape other men?
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為什麼有這麼多男人要強暴其他男人？
06:02
What is going on with men?
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男人到底怎麼了？
06:03
And then what is the role of the various institutions
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還有我們社會裡的各種機構
06:07
in our society that are helping to produce abusive men
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正在以流感傳播的速度一樣
幫助產生虐待傾向的男人
幫助產生虐待傾向的男人
06:10
at pandemic rates?
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究竟這些機構扮演著什麼角色？
06:11
Because this isn't about individual perpetrators.
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因為這與個別施暴者無關
06:13
That's a naive way to understanding what is a much deeper
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就這麼樣去理解更深層更系統化
06:16
and more systematic social problem.
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的社會問題，真的很天真
06:17
You know, the perpetrators aren't these
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你知道，施暴者並不是那些
06:19
monsters who crawl out of the swamp
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沼澤裡爬行的怪物
06:21
and come into town and do their nasty business
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跑到鎮上來，幹幾件壞事
06:24
and then retreat into the darkness.
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然後又躲回黑暗處
06:26
That's a very naive notion, right?
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這種想法非常天真，好嗎？
06:28
Perpetrators are much more normal than that,
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施暴者比那些怪物較為正常
06:30
and everyday than that.
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也較日常了
06:32
So the question is, what are we doing here
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所以我提出的問題是，在社會及世界裡
06:35
in our society and in the world?
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我們正在做什麼？
06:36
What are the roles of various institutions
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各種機構在助長產生
06:38
in helping to produce abusive men?
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暴力傾向的男人上扮演什麼角色？
06:40
What's the role of religious belief systems,
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宗教信仰體系
06:42
the sports culture, the pornography culture,
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體育文化、色情文化
06:45
the family structure, economics, and how that intersects,
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家庭結構、經濟，又扮演著什麼角色？
這些又如何與之交錯？
這些又如何與之交錯？
06:47
and race and ethnicity and how that intersects?
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還有種族和族裔，
這些又如何與之交錯？
這些又如何與之交錯？
06:49
How does all this work?
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這些問題怎麼串起來的？
06:51
And then, once we start making those kinds of connections
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然後，一旦我們開始把這些關聯串起來
06:54
and asking those important and big questions,
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並發問一些大哉問
06:57
then we can talk about how we can be transformative,
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然後我們才能談及應該如何變革
06:59
in other words, how can we do something differently?
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換句話說，我們如何才能夠
以不同的方式做些事情？
以不同的方式做些事情？
07:01
How can we change the practices?
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我們如何能夠改變習性？
07:03
How can we change the socialization of boys
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我們如何能夠改變男孩的社會化過程
07:05
and the definitions of manhood that lead to these current outcomes?
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及男子氣概的定義
而這過程和定義導致現在結果的？
而這過程和定義導致現在結果的？
07:09
These are the kind of questions that we need
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這些是我們需要問的問題
07:11
to be asking and the kind of work that we need to be doing,
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我們需要做的工作
07:13
but if we're endlessly focused on what women are doing
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但如果我們只是永無止盡地
聚焦在女人在男女關係
聚焦在女人在男女關係
07:16
and thinking in relationships or elsewhere,
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或其他關係裡做了什麼或想了什麼
07:19
we're not going to get to that piece.
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我們絕對無法成功
07:21
Now, I understand that a lot of women
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那麼，我知道有很多女人
07:23
who have been trying to speaking out about these issues,
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試著在現在及過去提出這些議題
07:25
today and yesterday and for years and years,
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但過去這麼多年
07:28
often get shouted down for their efforts.
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她們的努力往往被喝止
07:30
They get called nasty names like "male-basher"
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她們被冠上汙名像「強腳」
07:33
and "man-hater,"
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「恐男」
07:34
and the disgusting and offensive "feminazi." Right?
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以及既噁心又無禮的「女權納粹」。對吧？
07:41
And you know what all this is about?
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而你知道這一切代表什麼嗎？
07:43
It's called kill the messenger.
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這叫殺了來使
07:44
It's because the women who are standing up
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這是因為這些挺身而出的女人
07:46
and speaking out for themselves and for other women
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這些為了自己或別的女人
或為了男人或男孩
或為了男人或男孩
07:48
as well as for men and boys, it's a statement to them
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而大聲疾呼的女人
這是給她們的下馬威
這是給她們的下馬威
07:52
to sit down and shut up, keep the current system in place,
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要她們坐下閉嘴，保持現有的狀態
07:55
because we don't like it when people rock the boat.
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因為我們不喜歡人家惹事生非
07:57
We don't like it when people challenge our power.
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我們不喜歡別人挑戰我們的權力
07:59
You'd better sit down and shut up, basically.
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你最好坐下閉嘴，就是這樣
08:02
And thank goodness that women haven't done that.
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而謝天謝地女人還沒有對女人這麼做
08:04
Thank goodness that we live in a world
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謝天謝地我們活在一個世界
08:05
where there's so much women's leadership that can counteract that.
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是有很多婦女具領導地位可以與之抗衡的
08:09
But one of the powerful roles that men can play in this work
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2524
但男人在這件事上可以扮演的一個強大角色
08:11
is that we can say some things
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就是我們可以說出
08:13
that sometimes women can't say,
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女人有時候說不出口的事情
08:15
or, better yet, we can be heard saying some things
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或更重要的是
我們說的時候人人都會注意聽
我們說的時候人人都會注意聽
08:17
that women often can't be heard saying.
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但女人說的時候經常被忽略
08:19
Now, I appreciate that that's a problem. It's sexism.
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那麼，我意識到這是個問題是性別歧視
08:22
But it's the truth. And so one of the things that I say to men,
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但這是事實所以我對男人及同事
08:24
and my colleagues and I always say this,
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說的事情之一，我總是這麼說
08:26
is we need more men who have the courage and the strength
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就是我們需要更多有勇氣及能力的男人
08:28
to start standing up and saying some of this stuff,
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開始挺身而出為這件事發聲
08:31
and standing with women and not against them
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與婦女持相同立場而不是反對她們
08:33
and pretending that somehow this is
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並假裝在某種程度上這只是
08:35
a battle between the sexes and other kinds of nonsense.
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兩性之間的戰爭和另一種無聊事罷了
08:37
We live in the world together.
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我們在這世界共生共存
08:39
And by the way, one of the things that really bothers me
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順帶一提有一件真的很困擾我的事
08:41
about some of the rhetoric against feminists and others
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就是有些言論，是反女性主義
08:44
who have built the battered women's
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反重建受虐婦女
08:45
and rape crisis movements around the world
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及反對世界各地強暴危機意識運動的
08:48
is that somehow, like I said, that they're anti-male.
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就是像我之前說的說他們有點反男性
08:50
What about all the boys who are profoundly affected
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那麼那些因他們的母親、他們本身
08:53
in a negative way by what some adult man is doing
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他們的姐妹被成年男子蹂躪
08:55
against their mother, themselves, their sisters?
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而深受負面影響的男孩要怎麼辦？
08:58
What about all those boys?
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那些男孩子怎麼辦？
09:01
What about all the young men and boys
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那些因成年男子施暴
09:02
who have been traumatized by adult men's violence?
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而精神受創的年輕男子及男孩又怎麼辦？
09:04
You know what? The same system that produces
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你知道嗎？會產生對婦女施虐的男人的系統
09:06
men who abuse women produces men who abuse other men.
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同樣也會產生對其他男人施虐的男人
09:09
And if we want to talk about male victims,
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如果我們想談男性受害者
09:10
let's talk about male victims.
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我們就來談談男性受害者
09:12
Most male victims of violence are the victims of other men's violence.
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大多數男性暴力受害者都是
其他男人暴力行為的受害者
其他男人暴力行為的受害者
09:16
So that's something that both women and men have in common.
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所以這是女性男性的共同點
09:18
We are both victims of men's violence.
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我們兩性都是男性暴力的受害者
09:20
So we have it in our direct self-interest,
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所以這與我們有直接利害關係
09:22
not to mention the fact that most men that I know
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更別提這一事實就是
我所認識的大多數男人
我所認識的大多數男人
09:25
have women and girls that we care deeply about,
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在家庭朋友圈及其他各處
09:27
in our families and our friendship circles and every other way.
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都有我們深深關愛地女人及女孩
09:31
So there's so many reasons why we need men to speak out.
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所以有這麼多的理由
我們需要男人挺身而出
我們需要男人挺身而出
09:34
It seems obvious saying it out loud. Doesn't it?
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很明顯我們應該大聲疾呼，不是嗎？
09:37
Now, the nature of the work that I do and my colleagues do
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3761
那麼，我與我同事在體育圈
09:41
in the sports culture and the U.S. military, in schools,
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3845
及美國軍隊、學校裡的工作性質
09:45
we pioneered this approach called the bystander approach
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我們是首先使用旁觀者處遇模式
09:47
to gender violence prevention.
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來防止性別暴力的人
09:49
And I just want to give you the highlights of the bystander approach,
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在此我只提旁觀者模式的幾項重點
09:51
because it's a big thematic shift,
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因為這是很大的主題轉移
09:55
although there's lots of particulars,
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雖然有很多詳情
09:57
but the heart of it is, instead of seeing men as perpetrators
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3541
但中心思想是不要只把男人看作加害者
10:00
and women as victims,
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女人看作受害者
10:02
or women as perpetrators, men as victims,
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或女人是加害者，男人是受害者
10:05
or any combination in there.
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或以上任何排列組合
10:07
I'm using the gender binary. I know there's more
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我現在使用兩性二元法我知道不應
10:08
than men and women, there's more than male and female.
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只是男人女人男性女性這樣的二分法
10:11
And there are women who are perpetrators,
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而且的確有女人是加害者
10:12
and of course there are men who are victims.
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當然也有男人是受害者
10:15
There's a whole spectrum.
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要全方位看
10:16
But instead of seeing it in the binary fashion,
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但與其用二元法來看待兩性問題
10:18
we focus on all of us as what we call bystanders,
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我們該把焦點放在
我們整體這些所謂旁觀者上
我們整體這些所謂旁觀者上
10:21
and a bystander is defined as anybody who is not
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旁觀者的定義是在特定情況下
10:24
a perpetrator or a victim in a given situation,
253
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既非加害者亦非受害者的人
10:27
so in other words friends, teammates, colleagues,
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也就是說像朋友、隊友、同事
10:30
coworkers, family members, those of us
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同工、家人這些
10:32
who are not directly involved in a dyad of abuse,
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3135
與虐待二元體沒有直接關聯的人
10:35
but we are embedded in social, family, work, school,
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但我們都在社會家庭工作學校
10:38
and other peer culture relationships with people
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2288
及其他同儕文化關係上
10:41
who might be in that situation. What do we do?
259
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與虐待有關的人緊密相連那我們該怎麼做？
10:43
How do we speak up? How do we challenge our friends?
260
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要怎麼挺身而出？要如何質問朋友？
10:45
How do we support our friends? But how do we not
261
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要怎麼給予朋友支持？尤其是在面對虐待時
10:47
remain silent in the face of abuse?
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要如何不保持沈默？
10:50
Now, when it comes to men and male culture,
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現在，在說到男人及男性文化時
10:52
the goal is to get men who are not abusive
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目標是讓不施暴的男人
10:55
to challenge men who are.
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挑戰質問施暴的男人
10:56
And when I say abusive, I don't mean just
266
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這裡說的施暴，不單是指
10:58
men who are beating women.
267
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打女人的男人
10:59
We're not just saying a man whose friend
268
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3618
我們不單是指一個男人看到朋友
11:03
is abusing his girlfriend needs to stop the guy
269
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3032
正在打他的女友，所以需要
11:06
at the moment of attack.
270
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1279
立刻停止這傢伙施暴
11:07
That's a naive way of creating a social change.
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4361
想以這種方式造成社會變遷很幼稚
11:11
It's along a continuum, we're trying to get men
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3000
這需要長期經營
如果我們試著要讓男人
如果我們試著要讓男人
11:14
to interrupt each other.
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957
互相干預彼此
11:15
So, for example, if you're a guy and you're in a group of guys
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2659
所以，舉個例
如果你是個男的而且你與一群男人
如果你是個男的而且你與一群男人
11:18
playing poker, talking, hanging out, no women present,
275
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3095
玩撲克聊天一起混，沒有女人在場
11:21
and another guy says something sexist or degrading
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3456
有個男的說了一些歧視或貶低
11:24
or harassing about women,
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或騷擾女人的話
11:27
instead of laughing along or pretending you didn't hear it,
278
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3373
除了隨之大笑或假裝沒聽到
11:30
we need men to say, "Hey, that's not funny.
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我們需要男人能說：「嘿！這不好笑
11:32
You know, that could be my sister you're talking about,
280
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2172
你知道嗎，你說的可能是我的姊妹
11:34
and could you joke about something else?
281
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1590
你可不可以說些別的笑話？
11:36
Or could you talk about something else?
282
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1298
或者談點別的事？
11:37
I don't appreciate that kind of talk."
283
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1886
我不喜歡那種對話。」
11:39
Just like if you're a white person and another white person
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2579
就像如果你是白人聽到另外一個白人
11:42
makes a racist comment, you'd hope, I hope,
285
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2307
發表種族歧視評論我希望能看到
11:44
that white people would interrupt that racist enactment
286
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3839
你會期待有白人能打斷
11:48
by a fellow white person.
287
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1115
另一個白人同胞所做的種族歧視
11:49
Just like with heterosexism, if you're a heterosexual person
288
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2519
就像在談異性戀時如果你是異性戀
11:51
and you yourself don't enact harassing or abusive behaviors
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3169
雖然你本身不會去騷擾或虐待
11:55
towards people of varying sexual orientations,
290
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跟你不同性取向的的人
11:57
if you don't say something in the face of other heterosexual people doing that,
291
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3439
但如果你不在別的異性戀騷擾別人時挺身而出
12:00
then, in a sense, isn't your silence
292
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1409
那麼在某種意義上來說難道你的沉默
12:02
a form of consent and complicity?
293
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不也是一種形式的同意及共謀嗎？
12:04
Well, the bystander approach is trying to give people tools
294
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是的，旁觀者模式的確試著給人們方法
12:06
to interrupt that process and to speak up
295
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來干預虐待過程及挺身而出
12:09
and to create a peer culture climate
296
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以創造同儕文化的氣氛
12:11
where the abusive behavior will be seen as unacceptable,
297
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讓虐待行為被視為不可接受
12:13
not just because it's illegal, but because it's wrong
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不僅是因為這違法，更因為這是錯的
12:17
and unacceptable in the peer culture.
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在同儕文化中不能被接受
12:19
And if we can get to the place where men
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如果我們能做到當男人
12:21
who act out in sexist ways will lose status,
301
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表現出性別歧視時會失去社會地位
12:23
young men and boys who act out in sexist
302
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年輕男人及男孩表現出性別歧視
12:25
and harassing ways towards girls and women,
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並騷擾女孩及女人時
12:27
as well as towards other boys and men,
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或是騷擾其他男孩及男人時
12:29
will lose status as a result of it, guess what?
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會因此失去社會地位猜猜看會怎樣？
12:32
We'll see a radical diminution of the abuse.
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我們會看到虐待現象急遽減少
12:35
Because the typical perpetrator is not sick and twisted.
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因為典型的加害者不是有病或人格扭曲
12:37
He's a normal guy in every other way. Isn't he?
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他是個在每一方面都很正常的傢伙。不是嗎？
12:40
Now, among the many great things that Martin Luther King
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金恩博士在他短暫的一生
12:44
said in his short life was,
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曾說過的名言之一是
12:45
"In the end, what will hurt the most
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「到最後，傷害我們最深的
12:47
is not the words of our enemies
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不是敵人的言語
12:49
but the silence of our friends."
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而是朋友的沉默。」
12:50
In the end, what will hurt the most is not the words
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到最後，傷害我們最深的不是敵人的言語
12:53
of our enemies but the silence of our friends.
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而是朋友的沉默
12:55
There's been an awful lot of silence in male culture
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男性文化對於持續不斷的男性
12:57
about this ongoing tragedy of men's violence
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對女性及兒童施暴的悲劇
13:00
against women and children, hasn't there?
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已經有太多的沉默，不是嗎？
13:02
There's been an awful lot of silence.
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太多的沉默
13:03
And all I'm saying is that we need to break that silence,
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而我想說的是我們需要打破沉默
13:07
and we need more men to do that.
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而且我們需要更多男人這麼做
13:09
Now, it's easier said than done,
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但是說的比做的容易
13:12
because I'm saying it now, but I'm telling you it's not easy
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因為現在我可以在此大放厥詞
但我告訴你這真的很難
但我告訴你這真的很難
13:15
in male culture for guys to challenge each other,
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在男性文化裡讓男性挑戰彼此
13:18
which is one of the reasons why
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這也是原因之一為甚麼
13:20
part of the paradigm shift that has to happen
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要產生典範轉移，不僅必須瞭解
13:22
is not just understanding these issues as men's issues,
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這些議題不但是男人的問題
13:25
but they're also leadership issues for men.
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還是男人領導能力的問題
13:27
Because ultimately, the responsibility for taking a stand
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因為最終要挺身而出為此議題
13:30
on these issues should not fall on the shoulders
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負責任的不該落在小男孩
13:32
of little boys or teenage boys in high school
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或高中青少年
13:35
or college men. It should be on adult men with power.
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或大學男生的肩上
這應該落在成年有權力的男人上
這應該落在成年有權力的男人上
13:38
Adult men with power are the ones we need to be holding accountable
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有權力的成年男性才是需要
13:41
for being leaders on these issues,
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為此負上責任領導解決問題的人
13:42
because when somebody speaks up in a peer culture
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因為會在同儕中挺身而出
13:45
and challenges and interrupts, he or she
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挑戰並阻止事件發生的人，無論男女
13:47
is being a leader, really, right?
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才是真正的領袖，不是嗎？
13:50
But on a big scale, we need more adult men with power
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但大規模看，我們需要更多有權力的成年男性
13:53
to start prioritizing these issues,
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開始把這些議題放在優先
13:55
and we haven't seen that yet, have we?
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但我們還沒看到這發生，對吧？
13:57
Now, I was at a dinner a number of years ago,
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多年前我在一個晚餐上
14:01
and I work extensively with the U.S. military, all the services.
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我與美國各種軍隊有很多合作
14:04
And I was at this dinner and this woman said to me --
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我在一個晚宴上有個女人對我說
14:07
I think she thought she was a little clever -- she said,
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我猜她認為她有一點聰明——她說
14:10
"So how long have you been doing sensitivity training
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「所以你對美國海軍陸戰隊做這個敏感性訓練
14:13
with the Marines?"
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有多久了？」
14:15
And I said, "With all due respect,
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我說，「恕我直言，
14:18
I don't do sensitivity training with the Marines.
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我不是對海軍陸戰隊作敏感度訓練
14:20
I run a leadership program in the Marine Corps."
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我是在海軍陸戰隊裡辦領袖課程。」
14:23
Now, I know it's a bit pompous, my response,
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我當然知道我的回答有點誇大
14:25
but it's an important distinction, because I don't believe
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但這是很重要的區別，因為我不認為
14:28
that what we need is sensitivity training.
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我們需要的是敏感度訓練
14:30
We need leadership training, because, for example,
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我們要的是領袖訓練，因為舉個例
14:32
when a professional coach or a manager of a baseball team
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3162
當一位棒球隊或足球隊的專業教練或經理
14:35
or a football team -- and I work extensively in that realm as well --
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3045
我在這領域也有很多合作經驗
14:38
makes a sexist comment, makes a homophobic statement,
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3690
講了性別歧視的話
講了反同性戀的話
講了反同性戀的話
14:42
makes a racist comment, there will be discussions
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講了種族歧視的評論
那麼在體育部落格
那麼在體育部落格
14:44
on the sports blogs and in sports talk radio.
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2372
及體育廣播台都會討論這句話
14:47
And some people will say, "Well, he needs sensitivity training."
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2132
有些人會說，「嗯，他需要敏感度訓練。」
14:49
And other people will say, "Well get off it.
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1591
另外一些人會說，「嘖，莫名其妙。
14:50
You know, that's political correctness run amok,
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1991
你知道，這就是政治正確太超過
14:52
and he made a stupid statement. Move on."
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2034
他說了句蠢話。不要理他。」
14:54
My argument is, he doesn't need sensitivity training.
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2411
我的論點是他不需要敏感度訓練
14:57
He needs leadership training,
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他需要的是領袖訓練
14:58
because he's being a bad leader, because in a society
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2569
因為他是個很糟的領袖
因為在這個
因為在這個
15:01
with gender diversity and sexual diversity --
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2811
性別多元及性向多元
15:04
(Applause) —
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（掌聲）
15:05
and racial and ethnic diversity, you make
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及種族及族裔多元的社會，你做出
15:07
those kind of comments, you're failing at your leadership.
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這種評論，就是在領導力上不及格
15:09
If we can make this point that I'm making
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如果我們可以讓
15:12
to powerful men and women in our society
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這個社會上各個機關權力階級
15:15
at all levels of institutional authority and power,
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有權勢的男人女人都瞭解到這點
15:18
it's going to change, it's going to change
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我們一定會改變，一定會改變
15:20
the paradigm of people's thinking.
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2075
人的思考模式典範
15:22
You know, for example, I work a lot
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你知道，舉個例，我跟北美許多
15:24
in college and university athletics throughout North America.
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4414
學院及大學的運動單位合作
15:28
We know so much about how to prevent
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1982
我們非常瞭解如何防止
15:30
domestic and sexual violence, right?
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2403
家暴及性暴力，對吧？
15:32
There's no excuse for a college or university
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3082
所以學院或大學沒有任何藉口
15:36
to not have domestic and sexual violence prevention training
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不辦家暴及性暴力防治訓練
15:38
mandated for all student athletes, coaches, administrators,
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讓所有體保生、教練及行政經理人必修
15:41
as part of their educational process.
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成為他們教育學程的一部分
15:43
We know enough to know that we can easily do that.
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我們非常清楚我們可以輕易做到
15:46
But you know what's missing? The leadership.
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但你知道我們缺少什麼嗎？領導力
15:48
But it's not the leadership of student athletes.
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2006
我不是指體保生的領導力
15:50
It's the leadership of the athletic director,
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1359
我是指體育主任的領導力
15:51
the president of the university, the people in charge
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大學校長的領導力，這些掌權的人
15:54
who make decisions about resources
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這些可以在資源上做決策的人
15:56
and who make decisions about priorities in the institutional settings.
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還有那些可以決定機構單位的優先權的人
15:59
That's a failure, in most cases, of men's leadership.
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3969
大部分情況下這就是失敗的男性領導力
16:03
Look at Penn State. Penn State is the mother
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看看賓州州大。賓州州大是
16:06
of all teachable moments for the bystander approach.
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所有旁觀者處遇模式的借鏡
16:08
You had so many situations in that realm
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在那裡有太多情況是
16:11
where men in powerful positions failed to act
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有權勢的男人不採取行動
16:14
to protect children, in this case, boys.
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以保護孩童，在這個例子是男孩
16:17
It's unbelievable, really. But when you get into it,
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這簡直不可置信，真的但你深入去看
16:19
you realize there are pressures on men.
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你才瞭解男人身上也有很多壓力
16:21
There are constraints within peer cultures on men,
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同儕文化在男性身上加諸許多限制
16:24
which is why we need to encourage men
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這也是為什麼我們需要鼓勵男人
16:26
to break through those pressures.
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突破這些壓力
16:28
And one of the ways to do that is to say
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而方法之一是宣告
16:29
there's an awful lot of men who care deeply about these issues.
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有非常多的男人很深刻地在乎這些議題
16:32
I know this. I work with men,
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我很清楚。我跟男人共事許久
16:33
and I've been working with tens of thousands,
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過去幾十年來我已經
16:35
hundreds of thousands of men for many, many decades now.
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3441
與成千上萬的男人合作過
16:38
It's scary, when you think about it, how many years.
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2894
想到已經這麼多年了就覺得恐怖
16:41
But there's so many men who care deeply about these issues,
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但的確有很多男人非常深刻地關心這些議題
16:45
but caring deeply is not enough.
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但是深刻地關心還是不夠
16:47
We need more men with the guts,
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我們需要更多有膽量的男人
16:50
with the courage, with the strength, with the moral integrity
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3239
有勇氣和力量還有道德誠信
16:53
to break our complicit silence and challenge each other
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來打破這共謀的沉默並能提出質疑
16:57
and stand with women and not against them.
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與女人肩並肩而不是背對背
16:59
By the way, we owe it to women.
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再說，這是我們欠女人的
17:01
There's no question about it.
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1092
我們不能否認
17:02
But we also owe it to our sons.
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1746
但這也是我們欠我們兒子的
17:04
We also owe it to young men who are growing up
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2134
這也是我們欠全世界年輕男人的
17:06
all over the world in situations where they didn't make the choice
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3032
他們在不能選擇的情況下
17:09
to be a man in a culture that tells them
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只能依從文化教養，長成能被
17:12
that manhood is a certain way.
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社會接受的男子漢大丈夫
17:13
They didn't make the choice.
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1394
他們無從選擇
17:14
We that have a choice have an opportunity
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我們有選擇的人可以給他們機會
17:18
and a responsibility to them as well.
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對他們也有責任
17:20
I hope that, going forward, men and women,
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往前看，我希望男人女人
17:23
working together, can begin the change
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能一同合作，開始改變
17:25
and the transformation that will happen
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產生轉化
17:27
so that future generations won't have the level of tragedy
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所以下一代不會再看到這種
17:29
that we deal with on a daily basis.
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我們每天都在對付的悲劇
17:31
I know we can do it. We can do better.
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我知道我們做得到
我們能做得更好
我們能做得更好
17:33
Thank you very much. (Applause)
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謝謝大家（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jackson Katz - Anti-sexism educatorJackson Katz asks a very important question that gets at the root of why sexual abuse, rape and domestic abuse remain a problem: What's going on with men?
Why you should listen
Jackson Katz is an educator, author, filmmaker and cultural theorist who is a pioneer in the fields of gender violence prevention education and media literacy. He is co-founder of Mentors in Violence Prevention (MVP), which enlists men in the struggle to prevent men’s violence against women. Celebrating its 20th anniversary this year, MVP has become a widely used sexual and domestic violence prevention initiative in college and professional athletics across North America. Katz and his MVP colleagues have also worked extensively with schools, youth sports associations and community organizations, as well as with all major branches of the U.S. military.
Katz is the creator of popular educational videos including Tough Guise: Violence, Media and the Crisis in Masculinity. He is the author of The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help and Leading Men: Presidential Campaigns and the Politics of Manhood. He has also appeared in several documentaries, including Hip Hop: Beyond Beats and Rhymes and MissRepresentation.
Jackson Katz | Speaker | TED.com