TEDxGhent
Veerle Provoost: Do kids think of sperm donors as family?
费尔勒·普罗沃斯特: 孩子们认为精子捐赠者是家人吗？
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1,144,738 views
我们如何定义父母，或者家人？生物理论学家费尔勒·普罗沃斯特在非传统家庭——那些由领养、再婚、代孕和精子捐赠者组成的家庭里，探索了这些问题。在这个演讲里，她分享了家长和孩子是如何创造他们自己家庭的故事。
Veerle Provoost - Bioethicist
Veerle Provoost studies genetic and social parenthood in the context of donor conception. Full bio
Veerle Provoost studies genetic and social parenthood in the context of donor conception. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
What is a parent?
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什么是父母？
00:15
What is a parent?
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什么是父母？
这不是一个简单的问题。
00:19
It's not an easy question.
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00:21
Today we have adoption,
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当今我们有领养制度，
再婚家庭，
00:24
stepfamilies,
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00:25
surrogate mothers.
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代孕母亲，
00:27
Many parents face tough questions
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很多父母面对着困难的问题
00:31
and tough decisions.
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和艰难的选择。
00:33
Shall we tell our child
about the sperm donation?
about the sperm donation?
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我们应该告诉我们的孩子
关于精子捐赠的事情吗？
关于精子捐赠的事情吗？
00:39
If so, when?
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什么时间比较合适呢？
00:41
What words to use?
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我们该怎样措辞？
00:43
Sperm donors are often referred
to as "biological fathers,"
to as "biological fathers,"
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精子捐赠者常被称为
“生物学的父亲”，
“生物学的父亲”，
但是我们真的应该
用“父亲”这个词吗？
用“父亲”这个词吗？
00:49
but should we really
be using the word "father?"
be using the word "father?"
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00:53
As a philosopher and social scientist,
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作为一个哲学家和社会科学家，
我一直在研究这些关于
父母概念的问题。
父母概念的问题。
00:56
I have been studying these questions
about the concept of parenthood.
about the concept of parenthood.
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01:01
But today, I will talk to you
about what I learned
about what I learned
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但是今天，我将告诉你们
我从和父母以及孩子的交谈中所学到的。
01:04
from talking to parents and children.
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01:07
I will show you that they know
what matters most in a family,
what matters most in a family,
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我会告诉你们，他们
知道对一个家庭来说，什么最重要，
知道对一个家庭来说，什么最重要，
01:11
even though their family
looks a little different.
looks a little different.
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即使他们的家庭
看起来有点不一样。
看起来有点不一样。
01:15
I will show you their creative ways
of dealing with tough questions.
of dealing with tough questions.
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我会介绍他们富有创造力的
解决这些疑难问题的方法。
解决这些疑难问题的方法。
但是我也会告诉你们
父母的不确定感。
父母的不确定感。
01:21
But I will also show you
the parents' uncertainties.
the parents' uncertainties.
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01:27
We interviewed couples
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我们采访了
在根特大学医院接受受孕治疗的
01:28
who received fertility treatment
at Ghent University Hospital,
at Ghent University Hospital,
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使用捐献者精子的夫妇。
01:33
using sperm from a donor.
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01:35
In this treatment timeline,
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在这个治疗时间线上，
你能看到我们采访的两个时间点。
01:36
you can see two points
at which we conducted interviews.
at which we conducted interviews.
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01:40
We included heterosexual couples,
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我们包括了异性恋夫妇，
01:44
where the man for some reason
did not have good-quality sperm,
did not have good-quality sperm,
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其中男性因为一些原因
没有高质量精子，
没有高质量精子，
01:48
and lesbian couples who obviously
needed to find sperm elsewhere.
needed to find sperm elsewhere.
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我们也包括了女同性恋伴侣，
她们很明显需要寻找精子。
她们很明显需要寻找精子。
01:54
We also included children.
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我们也包含了孩子。
01:58
I wanted to know
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我想知道
那些孩子是怎样定义
像父母和家庭这样的概念的。
像父母和家庭这样的概念的。
02:00
how those children define concepts
like parenthood and family.
like parenthood and family.
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02:06
In fact, that is what I asked them,
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事实上，这就是我问他们的问题，
02:10
only not in that way.
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只是用不同的方式。
02:13
I drew an apple tree instead.
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我画了一个苹果树。
02:17
This way, I could ask abstract,
philosophical questions
philosophical questions
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这样，我可以问抽象的，
富有哲学性的问题，
富有哲学性的问题，
这种方式不会让他们想要逃避。
02:20
in a way that did not make them run off.
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02:25
So as you can see,
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你们能看到，
苹果树是空的。
02:27
the apple tree is empty.
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02:29
And that illustrates my research approach.
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这表现了我的实验方式。
02:32
By designing techniques like this,
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通过设计像这样的方法，
02:34
I can bring as little meaning and content
as possible to the interview,
as possible to the interview,
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我能够使采访尽可能
少包含实际意义和内容。
少包含实际意义和内容。
02:40
because I want to hear that from them.
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因为我想从他们那里听到这些。
02:44
I asked them:
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我问他们：
02:46
What would your family look like
if it were an apple tree?
if it were an apple tree?
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如果你的家庭是
一棵苹果树，它看起来是怎样的？
一棵苹果树，它看起来是怎样的？
02:50
And they could take a paper apple
for everyone who, in their view,
for everyone who, in their view,
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然后他们可以拿一个纸做的苹果，
代表他们眼中的
代表他们眼中的
02:54
was a member of the family,
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一个家庭成员，
在上面写上名字，
并挂在他们想挂的地方。
并挂在他们想挂的地方。
02:56
write a name on it
and hang it wherever they wanted.
and hang it wherever they wanted.
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然后我会问问题。
02:59
And I would ask questions.
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03:02
Most children started
with a parent or a sibling.
with a parent or a sibling.
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绝大多数孩子会从
父母或兄弟姐妹开始。
父母或兄弟姐妹开始。
03:05
One started with "Boxer,"
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一个孩子以“拳击手”开始，
03:08
the dead dog of his grandparents.
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那是他祖父母死去的狗。
03:11
At this point, none of the children
started mentioning the donor.
started mentioning the donor.
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这个时候，没有孩子提到精子捐赠者。
03:16
So, I asked them about their birth story.
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于是，我问了关于他们出生的故事。
03:21
I said, "Before you were born,
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我说：“在你出生之前，
只有你的妈妈和爸爸，
03:23
it was just your mom and dad,
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或者妈妈和妈妈。
03:25
or mom and mommy.
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03:27
Can you tell me how you came
into the family?"
into the family?"
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你能告诉我你是怎么
来到这个家庭的吗？”
来到这个家庭的吗？”
03:31
And they explained.
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然后他们解释了。
03:33
One said,
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一个说，
03:35
"My parents did not have good seeds,
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“我的父母没有好的种子，
03:38
but there are friendly men out there
who have spare seeds.
who have spare seeds.
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但是有友好的人拥有多余的种子。
他们把种子带到医院，
03:43
They bring them to the hospital,
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03:45
and they put them in a big jar.
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然后放到一个大罐子里。
03:48
My mommy went there,
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我的妈妈去了医院
然后她从罐子里拿了两个，
03:49
and she took two from the jar,
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03:52
one for me and one for my sister.
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一个为了我，一个为了我的妹妹。
03:55
She put the seeds in her belly --
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她把种子放到她的肚子里——
03:58
somehow --
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不知道怎么放进去的——
她的肚子变的很大。
04:00
and her belly grew really big,
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04:02
and there I was."
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然后就有了我。”
04:05
Hmm.
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哦。
04:08
So only when they started
mentioning the donor,
mentioning the donor,
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所以只有当他们开始
提到精子捐赠者时，
提到精子捐赠者时，
我才用他们的语言问关于他的问题。
04:12
I asked questions about him,
using their own words.
using their own words.
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04:15
I said,
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我说，
“如果这个苹果代表
有种子的友好的人，
有种子的友好的人，
04:17
"If this would be an apple
for the friendly man with the seeds,
for the friendly man with the seeds,
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你会把它放在哪里？”
04:21
what would you do with it?"
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04:24
And one boy was thinking out loud,
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然后一个男孩努力地想了半天，
手里还拿着苹果。
04:26
holding the apple.
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然后他说，
04:27
And he said,
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04:29
"I won't put this one
up there with the others.
up there with the others.
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“我不会把这个苹果和其它的放在一起。
04:33
He's not part of my family.
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他不是我家庭的一部分。
04:36
But I will not put him on the ground.
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但是我不会把他放在冰冷的地上，
那太没有人情味儿了。
04:38
That's too cold and too hard.
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04:41
I think he should be in the trunk,
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我觉得他应该在树干里，
04:44
because he made my family possible.
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因为他让我的家庭成为了可能。
04:47
If he would not have done this,
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如果他没有做这些，
那就太遗憾了，
因为我的家庭就不会存在了，
因为我的家庭就不会存在了，
04:49
that would really be sad
because my family would not be here,
because my family would not be here,
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那么我也不会在这里了。”
04:53
and I would not be here."
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04:57
So also, parents
constructed family tales --
constructed family tales --
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父母们就这样编织了家庭故事——
05:01
tales to tell their children.
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用来告诉他们的孩子。
05:04
One couple explained their insemination
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一对父母还把他们的孩子带到农场
观看兽医给牛受精，
05:07
by taking their children to a farm
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05:11
to watch a vet inseminate cows.
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给他们解释受精的过程。
05:15
And why not?
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为什么不呢？
这是他们的解释方式；
05:17
It's their way of explaining;
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他们自己编织的家庭故事。
05:19
their do-it-yourself
with family narratives.
with family narratives.
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05:22
DIY.
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DIY。
05:24
And we had another couple
who made books --
who made books --
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我们还有一对父母制作了书籍——
给每一个孩子。
05:26
a book for each child.
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05:28
They were really works of art
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那些真的是艺术，
包含了他们在受孕治疗期间的
想法和感情。
想法和感情。
05:30
containing their thoughts and feelings
throughout the treatment.
throughout the treatment.
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05:34
They even had the hospital
parking tickets in there.
parking tickets in there.
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甚至还有医院停车场的罚单在里面。
所以这是DIY。
05:37
So it is DIY:
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05:39
finding ways, words and images
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找到方法、文字和图片
来向你的孩子讲述你的家庭故事。
05:41
to tell your family story to your child.
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05:45
And these stories were highly diverse,
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而且这些故事非常多样化，
05:48
but they all had one thing in common:
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但是有一件事情是一样的：
05:53
it was a tale of longing for a child
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那是共同渴望一个孩子，
05:57
and a quest for that child.
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以及获得那个孩子的故事。
06:00
It was about how special
and how deeply loved their child was.
and how deeply loved their child was.
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这是关于他们的孩子
是多么特殊和被爱护。
是多么特殊和被爱护。
06:07
And research so far shows
that these children are doing fine.
that these children are doing fine.
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目前的研究表明，
这些孩子都在健康成长。
这些孩子都在健康成长。
他们不比同龄孩子存在更多的问题。
06:11
They do not have
more problems than other kids.
more problems than other kids.
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06:14
Yet, these parents also wanted
to justify their decisions
to justify their decisions
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然而，这些父母也想通过讲故事，
来解释他们的选择。
06:19
through the tales they tell.
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06:21
They hoped that their children
would understand their reasons
would understand their reasons
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他们希望孩子能够理解他们
通过这样的方式建造家庭的原因。
06:24
for making the family in this way.
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06:27
Underlying was a fear
that their children might disapprove
that their children might disapprove
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深层的是担心他们的孩子
可能不会支持，
可能不会支持，
或排斥非亲生的父母。
06:31
and would reject the non-genetic parent.
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06:34
And that fear is understandable,
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那种恐惧是可以理解的，
因为我们生活在一个异性恋主导
06:37
because we live in a very heteronormative
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06:40
and geneticized society --
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和重视血脉的社会——
06:42
a world that still believes
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一个依旧相信真正的家庭是由
06:43
that true families consist
of one mom, one dad
of one mom, one dad
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一个母亲和一个父亲组成的，
而且他们和孩子是基因相连的世界。
06:48
and their genetically related children.
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06:51
Well.
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这无可厚非。
06:54
I want to tell you about a teenage boy.
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不过我想告诉你一个
十几岁的男孩的故事。
十几岁的男孩的故事。
他的出生是精子捐赠的结果，
但不是我们研究的一部分。
但不是我们研究的一部分。
06:57
He was donor-conceived
but not part of our study.
but not part of our study.
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07:00
One day, he had an argument
with his father,
with his father,
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一天，他和他的父亲起了争执，
他大吼，
07:03
and he yelled,
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07:05
"You're telling me what to do?
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“你告诉我我应该做什么？
你甚至都不是我的父亲！”
07:07
You're not even my father!"
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07:11
That was exactly what
the parents in our study feared.
the parents in our study feared.
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这正是我们研究里的父母担心的。
07:15
Now, the boy soon felt sorry,
and they made up.
and they made up.
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那个男孩很快感到自己失言了，
并与父亲重归于好。
并与父亲重归于好。
07:19
But it is the reaction of his father
that is most interesting.
that is most interesting.
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但是他父亲的反应是非常有趣的。
07:24
He said,
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他说，
07:25
"This outburst had nothing to do
with the lack of a genetic link.
with the lack of a genetic link.
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“这次爆发和缺少基因联系不相关。
07:31
It was about puberty --
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和青春期有关——
07:35
being difficult.
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叛逆。
是他们那个阶段的孩子
都会做的事情。
都会做的事情。
07:36
It's what they do at that age.
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07:38
It will pass."
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会过去的。”
07:41
What this man shows us
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这个男人告诉我们的是，
当事情不对的时候，
07:43
is that when something goes wrong,
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07:46
we should not immediately think
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我们不应该当即认为
是因为家庭有点不一样。
07:48
it is because the family
is a little different.
is a little different.
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07:51
These things happen in all families.
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这些事情在所有的
家庭里都会发生。
家庭里都会发生。
07:55
And every now and then,
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而且有的时候，
07:57
all parents may wonder:
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所有的父母都会怀疑：
08:00
Am I a good enough parent?
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我是一个称职的父母吗？
08:03
These parents, too.
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这些父母也会。
08:05
They, above all, wanted to do
what's best for their child.
what's best for their child.
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毕竟，他们想要把最好的留给孩子。
08:09
But they also sometimes wondered:
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但是他们有时候会怀疑：
08:12
Am I a real parent?
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我是真正的父母吗？
08:14
And their uncertainties were present
long before they even were parents.
long before they even were parents.
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而且他们的不确定感
在他们成为父母很久之前就产生了。
在他们成为父母很久之前就产生了。
在受孕治疗开始时，
08:18
At the start of treatment,
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当他们第一次见到咨询师，
08:19
when they first saw the counselor,
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08:22
they paid close attention
to the counselor,
to the counselor,
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他们对咨询师的话非常重视，
因为他们不想有任何闪失。
08:24
because they wanted to do it right.
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08:27
Even 10 years later,
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甚至10年后，
08:30
they still remember
the advice they were given.
the advice they were given.
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他们还能记得当初被给予的建议。
所以当他们想起咨询师
08:36
So when they thought about the counselor
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08:40
and the advice they were given,
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和被给予的建议时，
08:42
we discussed that.
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我们也讨论过。
我们见过的一对女同性恋说，
08:43
And we saw one lesbian couple who said,
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08:48
"When our son asks us,
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“当我们的儿子问我们
‘我有爸爸吗？’
08:50
'Do I have a dad?'
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08:53
we will say 'No, you do not have a dad.'
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我们会说：‘不，你没有爸爸。’
08:56
But we will say nothing more,
not unless he asks,
not unless he asks,
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但是我们不会多说，
除非他问起。
除非他问起。
因为他可能还没有准备好。
09:00
because he might not be ready for that.
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咨询师是这样建议的。”
09:02
The counselor said so."
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09:05
Well.
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好吧。
09:07
I don't know; that's quite different
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我不确定，这和我们回答
孩子的问题有些不一样。
09:09
from how we respond
to children's questions.
to children's questions.
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09:12
Like, "Milk -- is that made in a factory?"
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比如“牛奶－是从工厂里制作出来的吗？”
09:15
We will say, "No, it comes from cows,"
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我们会说：“不，它是来自奶牛。”
而且我们会谈论关于农场，
09:18
and we will talk about the farmer,
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以及牛奶到达商店的过程。
09:20
and the way the milk ends up in the shop.
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09:23
We will not say,
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我们不会点到为止地说，
09:26
"No, milk is not made in a factory."
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“不，牛奶不是来自工厂。”
09:32
So something strange happened here,
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所以一些奇怪的事情发生了，
当然这些孩子注意到了。
09:34
and of course these children noticed that.
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09:37
One boy said,
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一个男孩说，
“我问了我的父母一大堆的问题，
09:39
"I asked my parents loads of questions,
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但他们的表现很奇怪。
09:41
but they acted really weird.
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09:44
So, you know, I have a friend at school,
and she's made in the same way.
and she's made in the same way.
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我在学校有个朋友，
她也是通过同样的方式出生的。
她也是通过同样的方式出生的。
09:49
When I have a question,
I just go and ask her."
I just go and ask her."
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所以当我有问题的时候，我就去问她。“
09:53
Clever guy.
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聪明的家伙。
09:55
Problem solved.
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问题解决了。
09:57
But his parents did not notice,
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2584
但是他的父母并没有注意到，
10:00
and it certainly was not
what they had in mind,
what they had in mind,
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而且这肯定不是他们所想的，
也不是咨询师所想的，
10:03
nor what the counselor had in mind
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当他们阐述开放沟通的
家庭是多么重要的时候。
家庭是多么重要的时候。
10:05
when they were saying how important
it is to be an open-communication family.
it is to be an open-communication family.
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10:12
And that's the strange thing about advice.
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这就是关于建议的奇怪之处。
当我们给人们药方，我们首先收集证据。
10:14
When we offer people pills,
we gather evidence first.
we gather evidence first.
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10:18
We do tests,
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我们做实验，
我们做跟踪试验。
10:19
we do follow-up studies.
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我们想正确地知道药方会起什么作用，
10:21
We want to know, and rightly so,
what this pill is doing
what this pill is doing
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以及它是怎么影响人们的生活的。
10:25
and how it affects people's lives.
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10:28
And advice?
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关于建议？
给予建议，或者让专业人员
10:30
It is not enough for advice,
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10:32
or for professionals to give advice
that is theoretically sound,
that is theoretically sound,
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给予理论上站得住脚的建议，
或是好心的建议是不够的。
10:37
or well-meant.
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1301
应该是有证据的能够真正改善——
10:39
It should be advice
that there is evidence for --
that there is evidence for --
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10:42
evidence that it actually
improves patients' lives.
improves patients' lives.
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病人生活的建议。
10:48
So the philosopher in me
would now like to offer you a paradox:
would now like to offer you a paradox:
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所以我心中的哲学家
要给你们提出一个悖论：
要给你们提出一个悖论：
10:54
I advise you to stop following advice.
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我建议你们停止遵循建议。
10:59
But, yes.
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但是，没错。
11:02
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
11:06
I will not end here with what went wrong;
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我不会以什么负面的事情结束演讲：
11:09
I would not be doing justice
to the warmth we found in those families.
to the warmth we found in those families.
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我不会批判我们在
那些家庭里找到的温暖。
那些家庭里找到的温暖。
11:14
Remember the books
and the trip to the farmer?
and the trip to the farmer?
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还记得那些书
和去农场的旅行吗？
和去农场的旅行吗？
11:17
When parents do things that work for them,
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当父母做正确有效的事情，
11:21
they do brilliant things.
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1573
他们做得很棒。
11:24
What I want you to remember
as members of families,
as members of families,
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我想让你们记得的
是作为家庭成员，
是作为家庭成员，
无论任何形式或构成，
11:28
in no matter what form or shape,
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2491
11:30
is that what families need
are warm relationships.
are warm relationships.
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家庭都需要温馨的关系。
11:37
And we do not need to be
professionals to create those.
professionals to create those.
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我们不需要成为
专家来构建这些关系。
专家来构建这些关系。
11:41
Most of us do just fine,
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我们中的绝大多数都能做到。
11:44
although it may be hard work,
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即使可能并不容易，
11:47
and from time to time,
we can do with some advice.
we can do with some advice.
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有时我们也可以遵循一些建议。
11:51
In that case,
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在那个情况下，
记住三件事情：
11:52
bear in mind three things.
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11:55
Work with advice
that works for your family.
that works for your family.
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只遵循适合你家庭的建议。
12:00
Remember -- you're the expert,
because you live your family life.
because you live your family life.
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还要记住——你是专家，
因为你生活在你的家庭里。
因为你生活在你的家庭里。
12:06
And finally,
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最后，
12:08
believe in your abilities
and your creativity,
and your creativity,
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相信你的能力和创造力，
12:13
because you can do it yourself.
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因为你自己都能做到。
12:17
Thank you.
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谢谢。
12:18
(Applause)
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（鼓掌）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Veerle Provoost - BioethicistVeerle Provoost studies genetic and social parenthood in the context of donor conception.
Why you should listen
Veerle Provoost is a professor at the Bioethics Institute Ghent of Ghent University and a member of the Network on Ethics of Families. For her current research she coordinates a team of researchers who work on a study about genetic and social parenthood in the context of donor conception.
Using empirical research methods and Socratic conversation techniques, Provoost studies how professionals and ordinary people reason about health and how they make decisions in health-related contexts. In her courses on empirical research methods for ethics and bioethics, she teaches students how to look beyond mere experiences or general attitudes and to explore the principles and values that guide people's reasoning and decision-making. Her research shows that patients may bring their own sets of principles when making medical decisions, principles that may be very different from what medical staff anticipated and may feature around moral elements that may completely escape the attention of ethicists. For one, the moral reasoning of everyday people is centered more around relationships than around the principles that are at the core of scholarly bioethics.
In her talk TEDxGhent talk, she explains how we can gain valuable insights from families of children conceived with donor sperm and their views about what a family really is. These alternative families teach us what matters most in the decisions we all make for our children, whether or not they are genetically related to us. The parents and children she studied created their own family stories (about how their families were made) in highly diverse but very creative ways. However, some parents thought that they should strictly follow the advice of experts in their communication with their children. Because of that, they discounted their own competence. Based on her research experience, Provoost warns us for the negative effects of problematizing these families. Because no matter what a family looks like, or how it is made, parents should believe in their abilities and their creativity. As they know their families best, they are the real experts in how to find the best way to tell their own family story to their own child.
Veerle Provoost | Speaker | TED.com