ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Ellen Jorgensen - Biologist, community science advocate
Ellen Jorgensen is at the leading edge of the do-it-yourself biotechnology movement, bringing scientific exploration and understanding to the public.

Why you should listen

In 2009, after many years of working as a molecular biologist in the biotech industry, together with TED Fellow Oliver Medvedik, Jorgensen founded Genspace, a nonprofit community laboratory dedicated to promoting citizen science and access to biotechnology. Despite criticism that bioresearch should be left to the experts, the Brooklyn-based lab continues to thrive, providing educational outreach, cultural events and a platform for science innovation at the grassroots level. At the lab, amateur and professional scientists conduct award-winning research on projects as diverse as identifying microbes that live in Earth's atmosphere and (Jorgensen's own pet project) DNA-barcoding plants, to distinguish between species that look alike but may not be closely related evolutionarily. Fast Company magazine named Genspace one of the world's "Top 10 innovative companies in education."

More profile about the speaker
Ellen Jorgensen | Speaker | TED.com
TEDSummit

Ellen Jorgensen: What you need to know about CRISPR

艾倫‧卓根森: 關於 CRISPR,你該知道什麼?

Filmed:
2,076,993 views

我們該復活猛瑪象嗎?或是修改人類胚胎?把認為對人類有害的物種全部消滅?基因模組修改科技 CRISPR 讓這一切都可能實現,但它是怎麼辦到的呢?科學家艾倫卓根森要為我們這些科學門外漢抽絲剝繭,解釋關於CRISPR的迷思和現況。
- Biologist, community science advocate
Ellen Jorgensen is at the leading edge of the do-it-yourself biotechnology movement, bringing scientific exploration and understanding to the public. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

大家都有聽過「CRISPR」 嗎?
00:12
So, has everybody每個人 heard聽說 of CRISPRCRISPR?
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00:15
I would be shocked吃驚 if you hadn't有沒有.
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沒聽過就太落伍了。
00:18
This is a technology技術 --
it's for genome基因組 editing編輯 --
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這是一種基因修改技術,
00:21
and it's so versatile多才多藝 and so controversial爭論的
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非常萬用卻又極具爭議,
00:24
that it's sparking火花 all sorts排序
of really interesting有趣 conversations對話.
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因而引起了各種有趣的討論。
00:28
Should we bring帶來 back the woolly長毛 mammoth長毛象?
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我們該讓猛瑪象復活嗎?
00:31
Should we edit編輯 a human人的 embryo?
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我們要去修改人類胚胎嗎?
00:34
And my personal個人 favorite喜愛:
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還有我最喜歡的這個:
00:36
How can we justify辯解
wiping out an entire整個 species種類
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我們能夠接受,
用這項技術,
00:40
that we consider考慮 harmful有害 to humans人類
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將我們人類認為有害的物種,
00:43
off the face面對 of the Earth地球,
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從地球上完全消失嗎?
00:44
using運用 this technology技術?
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00:47
This type類型 of science科學
is moving移動 much faster更快
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這類的科學進展地太快了,
00:50
than the regulatory監管 mechanisms機制
that govern治理 it.
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遠超過制訂規範的腳步。
00:53
And so, for the past過去 six years年份,
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所以在過去六年,
00:55
I've made製作 it my personal個人 mission任務
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我給自己一個任務,
00:57
to make sure that as many許多 people
as possible可能 understand理解
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盡可能讓更多人去了解,
01:00
these types類型 of technologies技術
and their implications啟示.
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這類的科技和它們的意義。
01:04
Now, CRISPRCRISPR has been the subject學科
of a huge巨大 media媒體 hype炒作,
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媒體現在很愛講「CRISPR」,
01:09
and the words that are used most often經常
are "easy簡單" and "cheap低廉."
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又愛用「輕易」和「廉價」來形容。
01:14
So what I want to do is drill鑽頭 down
a little bit deeper更深
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所以我想要聊得深一點,
01:17
and look into some of the myths神話
and the realities現實 around CRISPRCRISPR.
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檢視關於「CRISPR」的迷思和現實。
01:22
If you're trying to CRISPRCRISPR a genome基因組,
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如果要對基因組進行「CRISPR」,
01:25
the first thing that you have to do
is damage損傷 the DNA脫氧核糖核酸.
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首先要破壞它的DNA。
01:29
The damage損傷 comes in the form形成
of a double-strand雙鏈 break打破
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也就是破壞染色體的雙股螺旋。
01:32
through通過 the double helix螺旋.
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01:33
And then the cellular細胞的 repair修理
processes流程 kick in,
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接著細胞的修復機制會開始介入,
01:37
and then we convince說服
those repair修理 processes流程
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我們會讓修復過程
01:39
to make the edit編輯 that we want,
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照我們期望的方向進行,
01:42
and not a natural自然 edit編輯.
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而不是自然發展。
01:43
That's how it works作品.
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大概是這樣。
01:45
It's a two-part兩部分 system系統.
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這個系統包含兩個部分。
01:47
You've got a CasCAS9 protein蛋白
and something called a guide指南 RNARNA.
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「Cas9 蛋白質」和「嚮導RNA」。
01:51
I like to think of it as a guided引導 missile導彈.
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就像是導向飛彈的兩部分。
01:53
So the CasCAS9 --
I love to anthropomorphize人格化 --
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所以「Cas9」--我喜歡用擬人法來說--
01:56
so the CasCAS9 is kind of this Pac-Man吃豆人 thing
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「Cas9」就像是小精靈,
01:59
that wants to chew DNA脫氧核糖核酸,
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想要把 DNA 吃掉。
02:01
and the guide指南 RNARNA is the leash皮帶
that's keeping保持 it out of the genome基因組
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而「嚮導RNA」則是負責
將 Cas9 帶到特定RNA片段,
02:05
until直到 it finds認定 the exact精確 spot
where it matches火柴.
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直到它找到執行任務的位置。
02:08
And the combination組合 of those two
is called CRISPRCRISPR.
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兩者結合就是所謂的「CRISPR」。
02:11
It's a system系統 that we stole偷了
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這是我們取法於一種
02:13
from an ancient, ancient
bacterial細菌 immune免疫的 system系統.
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非常古老的細菌免疫系統。
02:17
The part部分 that's amazing驚人 about it
is that the guide指南 RNARNA,
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驚人的地方在於,「嚮導 RNA」
只需要 20 個字母的核酸序列,
02:22
only 20 letters of it,
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02:23
are what target目標 the system系統.
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就能定位目標。
02:26
This is really easy簡單 to design設計,
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這很省事,
02:28
and it's really cheap低廉 to buy購買.
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也非常省錢。
02:30
So that's the part部分
that is modular模塊化 in the system系統;
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只要依照需求微調細節,
02:35
everything else其他 stays入住 the same相同.
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其他部分則維持不變。
02:37
This makes品牌 it a remarkably異常 easy簡單
and powerful強大 system系統 to use.
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所以是非常輕易卻有力的系統。
02:42
The guide指南 RNARNA and the CasCAS9
protein蛋白 complex複雜 together一起
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「Cas9 蛋白質」和「嚮導RNA」複合體
02:46
go bouncing蹦蹦 along沿 the genome基因組,
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沿著基因組探索,
02:48
and when they find a spot
where the guide指南 RNARNA matches火柴,
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找到符合「嚮導RNA」的位置時,
02:51
then it inserts插頁 between之間 the two strands
of the double helix螺旋,
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它們會插進雙股螺旋結構,
02:54
it rips裂口 them apart距離,
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把雙股螺旋拆開,
02:56
that triggers觸發器 the CasCAS9 protein蛋白 to cut,
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「Cas9 蛋白質」負責分解片段。
02:59
and all of a sudden突然,
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這個時候,
03:01
you've got a cell細胞 that's in total panic恐慌
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你的細胞會很恐慌
03:03
because now it's got a piece
of DNA脫氧核糖核酸 that's broken破碎.
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因為某部分的 DNA 斷裂了。
03:07
What does it do?
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那怎麼辦呢?
03:08
It calls電話 its first responders反應.
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這引起第一階段反應。
03:10
There are two major重大的 repair修理 pathways途徑.
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有兩種主要修復途徑:
03:13
The first just takes the DNA脫氧核糖核酸
and shoves塞到 the two pieces back together一起.
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第一種是找到斷裂的 DNA 把它塞回去。
03:18
This isn't a very efficient高效 system系統,
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這通常沒什麼效率,
03:20
because what happens發生 is
sometimes有時 a base基礎 drops滴劑 out
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因為結果要不是少一個鹼基
03:23
or a base基礎 is added添加.
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就是多一個鹼基。
03:25
It's an OK way to maybe, like,
knock out a gene基因,
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若只想把某個基因去除還可以,
03:28
but it's not the way that we really want
to do genome基因組 editing編輯.
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但要剪輯基因組卻不是
我們想的那麼簡單。
03:32
The second第二 repair修理 pathway
is a lot more interesting有趣.
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第二種修復途徑就有趣多了。
03:35
In this repair修理 pathway,
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這種修復方法,
03:36
it takes a homologous同源 piece of DNA脫氧核糖核酸.
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需要一段同源DNA。
03:39
And now mind心神 you, in a diploid二倍體
organism生物 like people,
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大家知道,人的染色體是成對的,
03:42
we've我們已經 got one copy複製 of our genome基因組
from our mom媽媽 and one from our dad,
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一半來自媽媽,一半來自爸爸,
03:46
so if one gets得到 damaged破損,
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所以,若有一邊受損了,
03:47
it can use the other
chromosome染色體 to repair修理 it.
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可以用另一半染色體去修補。
03:50
So that's where this comes from.
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這就是修補的原理。
03:52
The repair修理 is made製作,
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受損修好了,
03:54
and now the genome基因組 is safe安全 again.
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基因組又恢復正常了。
03:56
The way that we can hijack劫持 this
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我們要做手腳的部分,
03:58
is we can feed飼料 it a false piece of DNA脫氧核糖核酸,
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是補上一段不一樣的 DNA,
04:02
a piece that has homology同源性 on both ends結束
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兩端接點是同源基因,
04:04
but is different不同 in the middle中間.
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但中間的排序不一樣。
04:06
So now, you can put
whatever隨你 you want in the center中央
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所以中間是什麼沒差,
04:08
and the cell細胞 gets得到 fooled上當.
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細胞都會信以為真。
04:10
So you can change更改 a letter,
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你可以更動其中一個序列,
04:12
you can take letters out,
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把其中一個密碼取出來,
04:13
but most importantly重要的,
you can stuff東東 new DNA脫氧核糖核酸 in,
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更甚者,塞一段新的 DNA 進去,
04:16
kind of like a Trojan木馬 horse.
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就像特洛伊木馬。
04:19
CRISPRCRISPR is going to be amazing驚人,
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「CRISPR」很神奇,
04:21
in terms條款 of the number of different不同
scientific科學 advances進步
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因為它促成了好幾項
科學的新進展。
04:24
that it's going to catalyze催化.
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04:26
The thing that's special特別 about it
is this modular模塊化 targeting針對 system系統.
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它特別的是精準執行系統。
04:29
I mean, we've我們已經 been shoving DNA脫氧核糖核酸
into organisms生物 for years年份, right?
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將 DNA 植入有機體不是新技術。
04:33
But because of the modular模塊化
targeting針對 system系統,
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但有了制式化的定位系統,
04:35
we can actually其實 put it
exactly究竟 where we want it.
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就可以將它放在確切的位置。
04:39
The thing is that there's
a lot of talk about it being存在 cheap低廉
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目前很多人說它有多便宜,
04:45
and it being存在 easy簡單.
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然後多好做。
04:46
And I run a community社區 lab實驗室.
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我帶領一個社區型實驗室。
04:50
I'm starting開始 to get emails電子郵件 from people
that say stuff東東 like,
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我開始收到電郵問說,
04:53
"Hey, can I come to your open打開 night
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「嘿,我可以去你們那邊,
04:56
and, like, maybe use CRISPRCRISPR
and engineer工程師 my genome基因組?"
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然後用 CRISPR 整一下基因嗎?」
04:59
(Laugher笑聲)
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(笑聲)
05:01
Like, seriously認真地.
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這是真的。
05:03
I'm, "No, you can't."
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我只好回「抱歉,不行」。
05:05
(Laughter笑聲)
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(笑聲)
05:06
"But I've heard聽說 it's cheap低廉.
I've heard聽說 it's easy簡單."
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「但聽說不貴而且不難嘛。」
05:08
We're going to explore探索 that a little bit.
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讓我來解釋一下。
05:10
So, how cheap低廉 is it?
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到底是有多「廉價」?
05:12
Yeah, it is cheap低廉 in comparison對照.
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相較之下是蠻便宜的。
05:15
It's going to take the cost成本 of the average平均
materials物料 for an experiment實驗
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ㄧ般實驗耗材的錢是一定的,
05:19
from thousands數千 of dollars美元
to hundreds數以百計 of dollars美元,
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從幾千塊到幾百塊都有,
05:21
and it cuts削減 the time a lot, too.
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當然也很花時間。
05:23
It can cut it from weeks to days.
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多則幾星期,少則幾天。
05:26
That's great.
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就很了不起了。
05:27
You still need a professional專業的 lab實驗室
to do the work in;
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而且要專業的實驗室才能做;
05:30
you're not going to do anything meaningful富有意義的
outside of a professional專業的 lab實驗室.
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在實驗室外做不出什麼東西。
05:34
I mean, don't listen to anyone任何人 who says
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不要聽人家亂說
05:36
you can do this sort分類 of stuff東東
on your kitchen廚房 table.
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以為這在廚房流理台就做得好。
05:39
It's really not easy簡單
to do this kind of work.
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這也沒有想像中這麼容易。
05:43
Not to mention提到,
there's a patent專利 battle戰鬥 going on,
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更別提他們還在打專利的官司。
05:46
so even if you do invent發明 something,
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先不管你用這個做出什麼,
05:48
the Broad廣闊 Institute研究所 and UCUC Berkeley伯克利
are in this incredible難以置信 patent專利 battle戰鬥.
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麻省理工的博德研究所和
加州柏克萊大學爭得不可開交。
05:54
It's really fascinating迷人
to watch it happen發生,
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看他們這樣也是挺精彩的,
05:57
because they're accusing指責 each other
of fraudulent騙人的 claims索賠
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因為雙方都在指控對方說謊,
06:00
and then they've他們已經 got people saying,
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然後兩邊都有人說:
06:02
"Oh, well, I signed
my notebook筆記本 here or there."
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「你看是我先申請專利的。」
06:05
This isn't going to be settled安定 for years年份.
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總之還要拖好多年。
06:07
And when it is,
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等到塵埃落定,
06:08
you can bet賭注 you're going to pay工資 someone有人
a really hefty沉重 licensing許可 fee費用
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想必要把大筆專利金付給贏家
06:11
in order訂購 to use this stuff東東.
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才能用這項技術。
06:13
So, is it really cheap低廉?
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所以真的便宜嗎?
06:15
Well, it's cheap低廉 if you're doing
basic基本 research研究 and you've got a lab實驗室.
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其實,如果只是在實驗室
做些簡單研究還算便宜。
06:21
How about easy簡單?
Let's look at that claim要求.
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那它簡單嗎?我們來看看。
06:24
The devil魔鬼 is always in the details細節.
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魔鬼藏在細節裡。
06:27
We don't really know
that much about cells細胞.
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我們其實不了解細胞。
06:31
They're still kind of black黑色 boxes盒子.
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他們就像黑盒子。
06:32
For example, we don't know
why some guide指南 RNAs的RNA work really well
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比如說我們不懂為什麼
有些嚮導 RNA 有用、有些沒用。
06:37
and some guide指南 RNAs的RNA don't.
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06:39
We don't know why some cells細胞
want to do one repair修理 pathway
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為什麼有些細胞用第一種修復,
06:43
and some cells細胞 would rather do the other.
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有些卻喜歡用第二種。
06:46
And besides除了 that,
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除此之外,
06:47
there's the whole整個 problem問題
of getting得到 the system系統 into the cell細胞
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把 CRISPR 丟進人體就是大問題。
06:50
in the first place地點.
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06:51
In a petri培養皿 dish, that's not that hard,
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在培養皿一點都不難,
06:53
but if you're trying to do it
on a whole整個 organism生物,
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但要放進一個有機體,
06:56
it gets得到 really tricky狡猾.
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就沒那麼容易了。
06:58
It's OK if you use something
like blood血液 or bone marrow骨髓 --
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如果用血液或骨髓還可能,
07:01
those are the targets目標
of a lot of research研究 now.
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現在實驗多以這兩個為目標。
07:03
There was a great story故事
of some little girl女孩
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有很多小女生,
白血病痊癒的案例,
07:05
who they saved保存 from leukemia白血病
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07:07
by taking服用 the blood血液 out, editing編輯 it,
and putting it back
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先取出血液,處理完再放回去,
07:10
with a precursor先導 of CRISPRCRISPR.
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用的是 CRISPR 的前體。
07:12
And this is a line of research研究
that people are going to do.
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這是目前的一個研究方向。
07:15
But right now, if you want to get
into the whole整個 body身體,
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但想要直接進入人體,
可能要透過病毒。
07:18
you're probably大概 going
to have to use a virus病毒.
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拿一個病毒,把 CRISPR 放進去,
07:20
So you take the virus病毒,
you put the CRISPRCRISPR into it,
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讓病毒感染細胞。
07:22
you let the virus病毒 infect感染 the cell細胞.
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07:24
But now you've got this virus病毒 in there,
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可是病毒會留在體內,
07:26
and we don't know what the long-term長期
effects效果 of that are.
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搞不好長期會有什麼影響。
07:29
Plus, CRISPRCRISPR has some off-target不中 effects效果,
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CRISPR 也未必百發百中,
07:31
a very small percentage百分比,
but they're still there.
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失誤機率很小但也不是沒有。
07:34
What's going to happen發生
over time with that?
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長遠來看會不會有問題?
07:38
These are not trivial不重要的 questions問題,
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這些不是小問題,
07:40
and there are scientists科學家們
that are trying to solve解決 them,
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科學家正在想辦法解決,
07:42
and they will eventually終於,
hopefully希望, be solved解決了.
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也希望最後都能被解決。
07:45
But it ain't plug-and-play即插即用,
not by a long shot射擊.
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但絕非一蹴可幾,而且機會渺茫。
07:48
So: Is it really easy簡單?
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所以有那麼容易嗎?
07:51
Well, if you spend a few少數 years年份
working加工 it out in your particular特定 system系統,
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如果你花個幾年摸透自己的身體,
07:55
yes, it is.
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那應該就不難。
07:57
Now the other thing is,
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但有另一個問題是,
07:59
we don't really know that much about how
to make a particular特定 thing happen發生
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如果改變基因組的某部分,
身體的改變會怎麼被觸發?
08:05
by changing改變 particular特定 spots斑點
in the genome基因組.
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08:09
We're a long way away from figuring盤算 out
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比如說,我們還要很久才會知道
08:11
how to give a pig wings翅膀, for example.
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怎麼給豬一對翅膀。
08:14
Or even an extra額外 leg -- I'd settle解決
for an extra額外 leg.
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或多一隻腿,這就很了不起了。
08:17
That would be kind of cool, right?
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這聽起來很酷吧?
08:18
But what is happening事件
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但現在的情況是,
08:20
is that CRISPRCRISPR is being存在 used
by thousands數千 and thousands數千 of scientists科學家們
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無數的科學家正用 CRISPR,
08:24
to do really, really important重要 work,
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做很重要的研究,
08:27
like making製造 better models楷模
of diseases疾病 in animals動物, for example,
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比如說用動物建立疾病的模型;
08:32
or for taking服用 pathways途徑
that produce生產 valuable有價值 chemicals化學製品
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或是去製造珍貴的化學物質,
08:37
and getting得到 them into industrial產業
production生產 and fermentation發酵 vats大桶,
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將他們投入工業級生產發酵;
08:42
or even doing really basic基本 research研究
on what genes基因 do.
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或是研究最基本的基因行為。
08:46
This is the story故事 of CRISPRCRISPR
we should be telling告訴,
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這才是 CRISPR 該被討論的,
08:48
and I don't like it
that the flashier華麗的 aspects方面 of it
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而不是那些虛華的表象,
08:52
are drowning溺死 all of this out.
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掩蓋檯面下的這些努力。
08:54
Lots of scientists科學家們 did a lot of work
to make CRISPRCRISPR happen發生,
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許多科學家努力讓 CRISPR 成真,
08:58
and what's interesting有趣 to me
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而我覺得欣慰的,
09:00
is that these scientists科學家們
are being存在 supported支持的 by our society社會.
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是我們的社會給予他們支持。
09:05
Think about it.
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想想看。
09:06
We've我們已經 got an infrastructure基礎設施 that allows允許
a certain某些 percentage百分比 of people
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我們的社會允許這一小撮人,
投入全部的時間心力做研究。
09:10
to spend all their time doing research研究.
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09:14
That makes品牌 us all the inventors發明家 of CRISPRCRISPR,
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所以我們都是 CRISPR 的發明人,
09:18
and I would say that makes品牌 us all
the shepherds牧羊人 of CRISPRCRISPR.
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我們也都變成 CRISPR 的監督人。
09:23
We all have a responsibility責任.
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我們都有責任。
09:25
So I would urge敦促 you to really learn學習
about these types類型 of technologies技術,
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所以我鼓勵大家多認識這些科技,
09:30
because, really, only in that way
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因為真的只有這樣,
09:32
are we going to be able能夠 to guide指南
the development發展 of these technologies技術,
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我們才能引導這些科技的發展、
09:36
the use of these technologies技術
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這些科技的應用,
09:38
and make sure that, in the end結束,
it's a positive outcome結果 --
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而且確保最後的正面產出,
09:43
for both the planet行星 and for us.
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無論是對地球或是對我們。
09:46
Thanks謝謝.
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謝謝。
09:47
(Applause掌聲)
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(掌聲)
Translated by Aaron Shoo
Reviewed by Yi-Fan Yu

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Ellen Jorgensen - Biologist, community science advocate
Ellen Jorgensen is at the leading edge of the do-it-yourself biotechnology movement, bringing scientific exploration and understanding to the public.

Why you should listen

In 2009, after many years of working as a molecular biologist in the biotech industry, together with TED Fellow Oliver Medvedik, Jorgensen founded Genspace, a nonprofit community laboratory dedicated to promoting citizen science and access to biotechnology. Despite criticism that bioresearch should be left to the experts, the Brooklyn-based lab continues to thrive, providing educational outreach, cultural events and a platform for science innovation at the grassroots level. At the lab, amateur and professional scientists conduct award-winning research on projects as diverse as identifying microbes that live in Earth's atmosphere and (Jorgensen's own pet project) DNA-barcoding plants, to distinguish between species that look alike but may not be closely related evolutionarily. Fast Company magazine named Genspace one of the world's "Top 10 innovative companies in education."

More profile about the speaker
Ellen Jorgensen | Speaker | TED.com