TEDxMileHigh
Christian Picciolini: My descent into America's neo-Nazi movement -- and how I got out
克里斯汀 · 皮喬里尼: 我如何陷入美國的新納粹運動，以及我如何脫離
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4,136,078 views
14 歲時，克里斯汀 · 皮喬里尼從天真的青少年變成了白人至上主義者。很快，他成為了美國第一個新納粹光頭黨幫派的領導人。他是怎麼被極端化的？最終是如何脫離這個運動的？在這場充滿勇氣的演說中，對於各種仇恨，皮喬里尼分享了很讓人驚訝且和直覺相反的解決方案。
Christian Picciolini - Counter-extremism specialist
Christian Picciolini is dedicated to helping others counter racism and extremism. Full bio
Christian Picciolini is dedicated to helping others counter racism and extremism. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
My journey away from violent extremism
began 22 years ago,
began 22 years ago,
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我遠離暴力極端主義的旅程，
從 22 年前開始，
從 22 年前開始，
00:18
when I denounced racism
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當時我公然譴責種族主義，
00:20
and left the American white
supremacist skinhead movement
supremacist skinhead movement
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並脫離了我過去協助建立的
美國白人至上光頭運動。
00:22
that I had helped build.
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00:24
(Cheers and applause)
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（歡呼與掌聲）
00:30
I was just 22 years old at the time,
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那時我才 22 歲，
00:33
but I had already spent eight years,
from the time I was 14 years old,
from the time I was 14 years old,
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但我已經花了 8 年時間，
也就是從 14 歲開始，
也就是從 14 歲開始，
00:37
as one of the earliest
and youngest members
and youngest members
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成為最早也最年輕就加入
00:39
and an eventual leader within
America's most violent hate movement.
America's most violent hate movement.
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美國最暴力的仇恨運動的成員，
最終還成了領導人。
最終還成了領導人。
00:44
But I wasn't born into hate;
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但我並非出生時就帶著仇恨的；
00:47
in fact, it was quite the opposite.
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事實還完全相反。
00:52
I had a relatively normal childhood.
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我的童年很正常。
00:55
My parents are Italian immigrants
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我父母是義大利移民者，
00:57
who came to the United States
in the mid-1960s
in the mid-1960s
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他們在 60 年代中期來到美國，
01:00
and settled on the South Side of Chicago,
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在芝加哥的南區安頓下來，
01:03
where they eventually met,
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他們在那裡相識，
01:05
and opened a small beauty shop.
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開了一間小型美容院。
01:08
Right after I was born,
things got a little bit more difficult.
things got a little bit more difficult.
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我出生之後，
生活就比較困苦些了。
生活就比較困苦些了。
01:11
They struggled to survive with raising
a young family and a new business,
a young family and a new business,
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他們努力求生存，要養育小孩，
還要張羅新事業，
還要張羅新事業，
01:16
often working seven days a week,
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常常每週要工作 7 天，
01:19
14 hours a day,
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每天工作 14 小時，
01:21
taking on second and third jobs
just to earn a meager living.
just to earn a meager living.
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還要兼第 2 份、第 3 份工作
來賺一點微薄的生活費。
來賺一點微薄的生活費。
01:25
And quality time with my parents
was pretty nonexistent.
was pretty nonexistent.
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和我父母相處的高品質時間，
幾乎是不存在的。
幾乎是不存在的。
01:29
Even though I knew
they loved me very much,
they loved me very much,
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雖然我知道他們很愛我，
01:32
growing up, I felt abandoned.
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成長過程我還是覺得被拋棄了。
01:35
I was lonely, and I started to withdraw,
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我很寂寞，我開始退縮，
01:39
and then I started to resent my parents
and become very angry.
and become very angry.
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接著我開始怨恨我的父母，
我變得非常憤怒。
我變得非常憤怒。
01:44
And as I was growing up,
through my teenage years,
through my teenage years,
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在我十幾歲的成長過程中，
01:47
I started to act out to try and get
attention from my parents.
attention from my parents.
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我開始會付諸行動，
試著得到我父母的注意力。
試著得到我父母的注意力。
01:53
And one day, when I was 14,
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我 14 歲時，有一天，
01:55
I was standing in an alley,
and I was smoking a joint,
and I was smoking a joint,
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我站在一條巷子裡吸大麻，
01:59
and a man who was twice my age,
with a shaved head and tall black boots,
with a shaved head and tall black boots,
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一名光頭男子，年紀有我兩倍，
穿著黑色長靴，
穿著黑色長靴，
02:05
came up to me,
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走向我，
02:07
and he snatched the joint from my lips.
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他把大麻煙從我的唇間奪走。
02:10
Then he put his hand on my shoulder
and he looked me in the eyes,
and he looked me in the eyes,
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他把手放在我肩上，盯著我的雙眼，
02:14
and he said,
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他說：
02:16
"That's what the communists
and the Jews want you to do
and the Jews want you to do
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「那正是共產黨員
和猶太人希望你做的，
和猶太人希望你做的，
02:19
to keep you docile."
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讓你變得易馴服。」
02:23
I was 14 years old,
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我才 14 歲，
02:24
I'd been trading baseball cards
and watching "Happy Days" --
and watching "Happy Days" --
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我平常會交換棒球卡
和觀賞《歡樂時光》——
和觀賞《歡樂時光》——
02:27
I didn't really know what a Jew was.
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我搞不懂猶太人是什麼。
02:29
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
02:31
It's true.
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是真的。
02:32
And the only communist that I knew
was the bad Russian guy
was the bad Russian guy
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我只知道一個共產黨員，
是個俄國壞蛋，
是個俄國壞蛋，
是我最愛的電影
《洛基》裡的角色。
《洛基》裡的角色。
02:36
in my favorite Rocky movie.
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02:38
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
02:40
And since I'm here
baring my soul with you,
baring my soul with you,
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既然我來這裡向各位坦誠我的事，
02:43
I can reveal that I did not even know
what the word "docile" meant.
what the word "docile" meant.
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我可以坦白說，我當時還不知道
「易馴服」是什麼意思。
「易馴服」是什麼意思。
02:47
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
02:48
Dead serious.
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我是非常認真的。
02:50
But it was as if this man in this alley
had offered me a lifeline.
had offered me a lifeline.
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但，就彷彿巷子裡的這個男人
提供了我一條生命線。
提供了我一條生命線。
02:55
For 14 years, I'd felt
marginalized and bullied.
marginalized and bullied.
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14 年來，我一直覺得
被邊緣化、被霸凌。
被邊緣化、被霸凌。
03:00
I had low self-esteem.
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我的自尊感很低。
03:02
And frankly, I didn't know
who I was, where I belonged,
who I was, where I belonged,
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老實說，我當時不知道
我是誰、我屬於哪裡，
我是誰、我屬於哪裡，
03:06
or what my purpose was.
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或我的人生目的為何。
03:08
I was lost.
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我迷失了。
03:10
And overnight, because this man
had pulled me in,
had pulled me in,
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一夜間，因為
這名男子把我拉進去，
這名男子把我拉進去，
03:14
and I had grabbed onto that lifeline
with every fiber of my being.
with every fiber of my being.
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我盡全力抓住了那條生命線。
03:19
I had gone from "Joanie Loves Chachi"
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我從《喬安娜愛恰奇》（節目）
03:24
to full-blown Nazi.
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變成了全面的納粹。
03:26
Overnight.
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一夜間。
03:29
I started to listen to the rhetoric
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我開始聽他們的言論，
03:32
and believe it.
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並相信它。
03:34
I started to watch very closely
as the leaders of this organization
as the leaders of this organization
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我開始近距離觀看
這個組織的領導人，
這個組織的領導人，
03:38
would target vulnerable young people
who felt marginalized
who felt marginalized
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看他們針對覺得
被邊緣化的脆弱年輕人，
被邊緣化的脆弱年輕人，
03:44
and then draw them in
with promises of paradise
with promises of paradise
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用被破碎的天堂承諾
03:48
that were broken.
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吸引他們。
03:51
And then I started to recruit myself.
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接著，我自己也開始招募新人。
03:55
I started to do that by making
white-power music.
white-power music.
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我的做法是去做白人力量的音樂。
04:00
And soon, I became the leader
of that infamous organization
of that infamous organization
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很快的，我就成了
那聲名狼籍的組織的領導人。
那聲名狼籍的組織的領導人。
04:05
that was led by that man in that alley
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原本領導該組織的人，
04:08
who recruited me that day,
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就是那天在巷子裡招募我的人，
04:10
who was America's first neo-Nazi skinhead
and who had radicalized me.
and who had radicalized me.
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他是美國第一個新納粹光頭黨員，
也是他讓我變偏激的。
也是他讓我變偏激的。
04:15
For the next eight years,
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接下來的 8 年，
04:17
I believed the lies that I had been fed.
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我相信那些餵給我的謊言。
04:21
And though I saw
no evidence of it whatsoever,
no evidence of it whatsoever,
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雖然我都沒看到什麼證據，
04:24
I didn't hesitate to blame
every Jewish person in the world
every Jewish person in the world
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我也毫不猶豫地責怪
世界上的每一個猶太人，
世界上的每一個猶太人，
04:28
for what I thought was a white,
European genocide
European genocide
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我以為有場歐洲白人大屠殺
04:33
being promoted by them
through a multiculturalist agenda.
through a multiculturalist agenda.
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是他們透過多文化議程來推動的。
04:38
I blamed people of color
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我怪罪有色人種，
04:40
for the crime and violence
and the drugs in the city,
and the drugs in the city,
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認為城市中的犯罪、
暴力、毒品是他們造成的，
暴力、毒品是他們造成的，
04:45
completely neglecting the fact
that I was committing acts of violence
that I was committing acts of violence
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我完全忽視了我自己
也在做出暴力行為，
也在做出暴力行為，
04:49
on a daily basis,
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且每天都做。
04:51
and that in many cases,
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我也忽視許多案例中，
04:53
it was white supremacists
who were funneling drugs
who were funneling drugs
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是白人至上主義者
讓毒品流入內都市。
04:56
into the inner cities.
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04:58
And I blamed immigrants
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我還怪罪移民者，
05:01
for taking jobs from white Americans,
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他們搶走了白種美國人的工作，
05:04
completely neglecting the fact that
my parents were hardworking immigrants
my parents were hardworking immigrants
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我完全忽視了我父母
就是辛勤工作的移民者，
就是辛勤工作的移民者，
05:09
who struggled to survive,
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他們努力求生存，
05:13
despite not getting help
from anybody else.
from anybody else.
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儘管沒有得到任何人的協助。
05:17
For the next eight years,
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接下來的 8 年，
05:20
I saw friends die,
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我看見朋友死亡，
05:23
I saw others go to prison
and inflict untold pain
and inflict untold pain
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我看見其他人入獄，
他們把無法形容的痛苦
他們把無法形容的痛苦
05:27
on countless victims
and their families' lives.
and their families' lives.
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帶入無數的受害者
及其家人的人生中。
及其家人的人生中。
05:31
I heard horrific stories
from young women in the movement,
from young women in the movement,
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在運動中，我聽到年輕女性
訴說很恐怖的故事，
訴說很恐怖的故事，
05:35
who'd been brutally raped by the very men
they were conditioned to trust,
they were conditioned to trust,
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她們被殘忍地強暴，
而兇手是自己被訓練去信任的男人，
而兇手是自己被訓練去信任的男人，
05:41
and I myself committed acts
of violence against people,
of violence against people,
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我自己也對人做出暴力行為，
05:45
solely for the color of their skin,
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只因為他們的膚色、
05:47
who they loved,
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因為他們愛的人，
05:49
or the god that they prayed to.
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或因為他們向哪個神禱告。
05:53
I stockpiled weapons for what I thought
was an upcoming race war.
was an upcoming race war.
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我儲備武器，因為我
以為有種族戰爭要到來。
以為有種族戰爭要到來。
05:57
I went to six high schools;
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我換過 6 間高中；
05:59
I was kicked out of four of them,
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其中 4 間把我開除，
06:00
one of them, twice.
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有一間還開除我 2 次。
06:03
And 25 years ago, I wrote
and performed racist music
and performed racist music
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25 年前，我會寫
也會唱種族主義音樂，
也會唱種族主義音樂，
06:10
that found its way
to the internet decades later
to the internet decades later
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數十年後，這音樂在網路上流傳，
06:12
and partially inspired
a young white nationalist
a young white nationalist
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部分鼓舞了一位年輕的
白人國家主義者
白人國家主義者
06:16
to walk into a sacred Charleston,
South Carolina, church
South Carolina, church
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走進南卡羅萊納州
查爾斯頓的一間神聖教堂，
查爾斯頓的一間神聖教堂，
06:20
and senselessly massacre
nine innocent people.
nine innocent people.
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毫無感覺地屠殺了 9 個無辜的人。
06:28
But then my life changed.
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但，接著，我的人生改變了。
06:31
At 19 years old, I met a girl
who was not in the movement,
who was not in the movement,
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19 歲時，我遇見了一個女孩，
她不在這運動中，
她不在這運動中，
06:35
who didn't have a racist bone in her body,
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她體內沒有一點點種族主義成份，
06:39
and I fell in love with her.
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我愛上了她。
06:42
And at 19, we got married,
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19 歲時，我們結婚了，
06:44
and we had our first son.
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我們有了第一個兒子。
06:48
And when I held my son in my arms
in the delivery room that day,
in the delivery room that day,
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那天，當我在產房中
用雙手抱起我兒子時，
用雙手抱起我兒子時，
06:52
not only did I reconnect
with some of the innocence that I had lost
with some of the innocence that I had lost
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我不只是重新連結上了
一些我在 14 歲時
一些我在 14 歲時
06:57
at 14 years old,
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失去的純真，
06:59
but it also began to challenge
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一開始吸引我加入
這運動的重要因素，
這運動的重要因素，
07:01
the very important things that drew
me to the movement to begin with:
me to the movement to begin with:
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也開始被我質疑，包括：
07:05
identity, community and purpose --
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身分、社群，和目的——
07:08
things that I had been
struggling with as a young boy.
struggling with as a young boy.
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這些都是我小時候掙扎著想得到的。
07:11
And now, I struggled with the concept
of who I was again.
of who I was again.
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現在，我再一次為了
「我是誰」的概念而掙扎。
「我是誰」的概念而掙扎。
07:17
Was I this neo-Nazi hatemonger,
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我是這個新納粹的煽動仇恨者？
07:22
or was I a caring father and husband?
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或者我是個有愛的父親和丈夫？
07:26
Was my community the one
that I had manufactured around me
that I had manufactured around me
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我的社會，是我身邊
這個被我捏造出來、
這個被我捏造出來、
07:30
to boost my own ego,
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用來促進自尊、
07:32
because I felt self-hatred for myself
and I wanted to project it onto others,
and I wanted to project it onto others,
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因為我其實有著自我憎恨，
且想要投射到他人身上的社會？
且想要投射到他人身上的社會？
07:38
or was it the one
that I had physically given life to?
that I had physically given life to?
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還是我得著生命的那個社會？
07:43
Was my purpose to scorch the earth
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我的目的是要把地球燒到焦黑？
07:48
or was it to make it
a better place for my family?
a better place for my family?
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或是要為了我的家庭
而讓世界成為更好的地方？
而讓世界成為更好的地方？
07:52
And suddenly, like a ton of bricks hit me,
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突然間，就像有一噸的
磚塊砸在我身上一樣，
磚塊砸在我身上一樣，
07:57
I became very confused with
who I'd been for the last eight years.
who I'd been for the last eight years.
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我變得非常困惑，
不知道過去 8 年的我是誰。
不知道過去 8 年的我是誰。
08:04
And if only I'd been brave enough
to walk away at that moment,
to walk away at that moment,
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真希望我當時夠勇敢，能一走了之，
08:07
to understand what the struggle was
that was happening inside of me,
that was happening inside of me,
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去了解在我內在
所發生的掙扎是什麼，
所發生的掙扎是什麼，
08:13
then maybe tragedy
could have been averted.
could have been averted.
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那麼也許悲劇可以被避免。
08:17
Instead, I did compromise.
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但我卻選擇了妥協。
08:19
I took myself off the streets
for the benefit of my family,
for the benefit of my family,
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我為了家庭好，讓自己脫離了街頭，
08:23
because I was nervous that maybe
I could go to jail or end up dead,
I could go to jail or end up dead,
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因為我很緊張，
怕我也許會去坐牢或是送命，
怕我也許會去坐牢或是送命，
08:27
and they would have to fend
for themselves.
for themselves.
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我的家人就得供養自己的生活。
08:30
So I stepped back as a leader,
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身為領導者，我退了一步，
08:31
and instead I opened a record store
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我開了一間唱片行，
08:35
that I was going to sell
white-power music in, of course,
white-power music in, of course,
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當然，要販售的是白人力量音樂，
08:39
because I was importing it in from Europe.
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我是從歐洲進口這些音樂的。
08:42
But I knew that if I was just
a racist store selling racist music
a racist store selling racist music
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但我知道，如果這只是間販售
種族主義音樂的種族主義商店，
種族主義音樂的種族主義商店，
08:46
the community would not
allow me to be there.
allow me to be there.
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社區不會容許我把店開在那裡。
08:49
So I decided I was going to also
stock the shelves with other music,
stock the shelves with other music,
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所以我決定我也要在架上
放些其他類型的音樂，
放些其他類型的音樂，
08:54
like punk rock and heavy metal
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比如龐克搖滾樂和重金屬，
08:56
and hip-hop.
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還有嘻哈音樂。
08:58
And while the white-power music
that I was selling
that I was selling
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雖然我販售的白人力量音樂
09:01
was 75 percent of my gross revenue,
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佔了我總收入的 75%，
09:03
because people were driving in
from all over the country to buy it
from all over the country to buy it
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因為全國各地的人會
特別開車來買這類音樂，
特別開車來買這類音樂，
09:07
from the only store that was selling it,
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這是唯一在販售這類音樂的店，
09:10
I also had customers come in
to buy the other music.
to buy the other music.
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但我也有客人進來買其他音樂。
09:15
And eventually, they started
to talk to me.
to talk to me.
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後來，他們開始和我交談。
09:19
One day, a young black teen came in,
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有一天，有一位年輕的
黑人青少年進來，
黑人青少年進來，
09:23
and he was visibly upset.
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他看起來就很沮喪。
09:27
And I decided to ask him what was wrong.
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我決定問他發生了什麼事。
09:30
And he told me that his mother
had been diagnosed with breast cancer.
had been diagnosed with breast cancer.
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他告訴我，他的母親被診斷出乳癌。
09:35
And suddenly, this young black teenager,
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我以前從未和這位年輕的黑人青少年
09:38
who I'd never had a meaningful
conversation or interaction with,
conversation or interaction with,
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進行過任何有意義的
交談或互動，突然間，
交談或互動，突然間，
09:43
I was able to connect with,
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1719
我就能和他產生連結，
09:45
because my own mother
had been diagnosed with breast cancer,
had been diagnosed with breast cancer,
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4005
因為我自己的母親也被診斷出乳癌，
09:49
and I could feel his pain.
164
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2426
我能感受他的痛苦。
09:52
On another occasion, a gay couple
came in with their son,
came in with their son,
165
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3740
另外還有一次，有一對同性戀
帶著他們的兒子進來，
帶著他們的兒子進來，
09:56
and it was undeniable to me
that they loved their son
that they loved their son
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在我看來，他們很愛
他們的兒子，無可否認，
他們的兒子，無可否認，
10:01
in the same profound ways
that I loved mine.
that I loved mine.
167
589417
3544
就和我深刻地愛著
我兒子的方式是一樣的。
我兒子的方式是一樣的。
10:06
And suddenly, I couldn't rationalize
or justify the prejudice
or justify the prejudice
168
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4844
突然間，我無法再將
我腦袋中的偏見給合理化
我腦袋中的偏見給合理化
10:11
that I had in my head.
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1434
或正當化了。
10:13
I decided to pull the white-power
music from the inventory
music from the inventory
170
601869
2812
我決定把白人力量音樂
從我的商品中拿掉，
從我的商品中拿掉，
10:16
when I became too embarrassed
to sell it in front of my new friends.
to sell it in front of my new friends.
171
604705
3359
因為我覺得在這些新朋友面前
賣這類音樂太尷尬了。
賣這類音樂太尷尬了。
10:20
And of course, the store
couldn't sustain itself,
couldn't sustain itself,
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當然，店無法經營下去，
10:23
so I had to close it.
173
611308
1311
我得把店關了。
10:25
At that same time, I lost
nearly everything in my life.
nearly everything in my life.
174
613343
4631
同時，我幾乎失去了
我人生中的一切。
我人生中的一切。
10:30
I used it as an opportunity to walk away
175
618484
2504
我把它當作一個離開的機會，
10:33
from the movement that
I'd been a part of for eight years,
I'd been a part of for eight years,
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621012
2858
脫離我參與了 8 年的運動，
10:35
the only identity, community and purpose
that I'd really known for most of my life.
that I'd really known for most of my life.
177
623894
4402
脫離我大半人生中唯一知道的
身分、社區，和目的。
身分、社區，和目的。
10:40
So I had nobody.
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628949
1586
我無依無靠。
10:43
I lost my livelihood
because I closed the store.
because I closed the store.
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631731
2596
我失去了生計，因為我把店關了。
10:46
I didn't have a great relationship
with my parents, even though they tried.
with my parents, even though they tried.
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634351
3986
我和父母並沒有很好的關係，
雖然他們努力試過。
雖然他們努力試過。
10:50
And my wife and children left me,
181
638891
1997
我太太和孩子離開了我，
10:52
because I hadn't left the movement
and disengaged quickly enough.
and disengaged quickly enough.
182
640912
3665
因為我沒有及早離開運動。
10:58
And suddenly,
183
646040
1184
突然間，
11:01
I didn't know who I was again,
184
649117
1931
再一次，我不知道我是誰、
11:03
or where I fit in
185
651072
1260
我適合哪裡，
11:05
or what my purpose was supposed to be.
186
653044
2370
或是我的人生目的應該是什麼。
11:08
I was miserable inside,
187
656034
2317
我的內在非常悲慘，
11:10
and I often woke up in the morning
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658959
2955
我常常早上醒來時，
11:13
wishing that I hadn't.
189
661938
1484
我希望我沒醒來。
11:17
About five years in,
190
665590
1740
大約過了 5 年，
11:19
one of the few friends that I had
was concerned about my well-being,
was concerned about my well-being,
191
667354
3846
我少數幾位朋友之一
來關心我過得好不好，
來關心我過得好不好，
11:23
and she came to me and she said,
192
671224
1883
她來找我，她說：
11:25
"You need to do something,
because I don't want to see you die."
because I don't want to see you die."
193
673131
3359
「你得做點什麼，
因為我不想看你死。」
因為我不想看你死。」
11:29
And she suggested that I go
apply for a job where she worked,
apply for a job where she worked,
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677982
3628
她建議我去她工作的地方
應徵一份工作，
應徵一份工作，
11:33
at a company called IBM.
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681634
1799
那間公司叫 IBM。
11:37
Yeah, I thought she was crazy, too.
196
685158
2053
是啊，我也以為她瘋了。
11:39
(Laughter)
197
687235
1685
（笑聲）
11:40
Here I was, a closeted ex-Nazi
covered in hate tattoos.
covered in hate tattoos.
198
688944
4575
我是個隱蔽的前納粹，
全身是仇恨的刺青。
全身是仇恨的刺青。
11:45
I didn't go to college.
199
693543
1232
我沒去唸大學。
11:46
I'd been kicked out of multiple
high schools multiple times.
high schools multiple times.
200
694799
4075
我被不只一間高中踢出來不只一次。
11:52
I didn't even own a computer.
201
700071
1599
我甚至沒有電腦。
11:55
But I went in,
202
703384
1256
但我去了，
11:56
and somehow, miraculously, I got the job.
203
704664
3630
不知怎麼的，很神奇的，
我得到了那份工作。
我得到了那份工作。
12:01
I was thrilled.
204
709636
1566
我非常興奮。
12:04
And then I became terrified to learn
205
712218
2637
接著，我知道了
一件讓我很惶恐的事，
一件讓我很惶恐的事，
12:06
that they'd actually be putting me
back at my old high school,
back at my old high school,
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714879
3561
他們要安排我回到我以前的高中，
12:10
the same one I got kicked out of twice,
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718464
2475
我被這間高中退學 2 次，
12:13
to install their computers.
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721892
1449
去那裡安裝電腦。
12:16
This was a high school
where I had committed acts of violence
where I had committed acts of violence
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724483
3507
在這間高中，我做過暴力的行為，
12:20
against students, against faculty;
210
728014
2452
對學生、對教職員，
12:22
where I had protested out in front
of the school for equal rights for whites
of the school for equal rights for whites
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4140
我曾在這間學校前面抗議，
爭取白人權利，
爭取白人權利，
12:26
and even had a sit-in in the cafeteria
212
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3079
甚至還在自助食堂靜坐抗議，
12:29
to try and demand a white student union.
213
737757
2494
要求要有一個白人學生會。
12:34
And of course, as karma would have it,
214
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2608
當然，真的是命中注定，
12:37
within the first couple of hours,
215
745289
1835
在最初的幾個小時中，
12:39
who walks right by me
but Mr. Johnny Holmes,
but Mr. Johnny Holmes,
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747676
3922
走過我旁邊的人偏偏
就是強尼赫姆斯先生，
就是強尼赫姆斯先生，
12:43
the tough black security guard
I had gotten in a fistfight with,
I had gotten in a fistfight with,
217
751622
3386
很強悍的警衛，我和他打過一架，
12:48
that got me kicked out the second time
218
756016
2040
這事造成我第 2 次被退學，
12:50
and led out in handcuffs from the school.
219
758080
2414
而且是帶著手銬離開學校的。
12:53
He didn't recognize me,
220
761763
1615
他沒認出我，
12:56
but I saw him,
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764251
1232
但我看到了他，
12:58
and I didn't know what to do.
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766404
1402
我不知道該怎麼做，
12:59
I was frozen; I was this grown man now,
years out of the movement,
years out of the movement,
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767830
3643
我呆住了，我那時是個成人了，
離開運動也有好幾年，
離開運動也有好幾年，
13:03
and I was sweating and I was trembling.
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771497
2081
我滿身是汗，不停發抖。
13:06
But I decided I had to do something.
225
774533
2154
但我決定，我得做點什麼。
13:09
And I decided I needed to suffer
under the weight of my past,
under the weight of my past,
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777902
3799
我決定，我得要背負起
過去的重量，承擔起這痛苦，
過去的重量，承擔起這痛苦，
13:13
because for five years
I had tried to outrun it.
I had tried to outrun it.
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781725
2671
因為 5 年來我一直試著逃脫過去。
13:17
I'd tried to make new friends
and cover my tattoos with long sleeves,
and cover my tattoos with long sleeves,
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785105
3304
我試著交新朋友，
用長袖把刺青蓋住，
用長袖把刺青蓋住，
13:20
and I wouldn't admit it
229
788433
1167
我不會承認它，
13:21
because I was afraid of being judged
230
789624
1822
因為我害怕會被別人評斷，
13:23
the same way I had judged other people.
231
791470
2241
就像我評斷別人那樣。
13:26
Well, I decided I was going to chase
Mr. Holmes out to the parking lot --
Mr. Holmes out to the parking lot --
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794862
3984
我決定我要去追赫姆斯先生，
追到停車場——
追到停車場——
13:30
probably not the smartest
decision that I made.
decision that I made.
233
798870
2503
可能不是個很聰明的決定。
13:33
(Laughter)
234
801397
1271
（笑聲）
13:34
But when I found him,
he was getting into his car,
he was getting into his car,
235
802692
2514
但當我找到他時，他正要上他的車，
13:37
and I tapped him on the shoulder.
236
805230
1973
我拍了他的肩膀。
13:39
And when he turned around
and he recognized me,
and he recognized me,
237
807227
3156
當他轉身時，他認出我了，
13:42
he took a step back because he was afraid.
238
810407
2567
出於害怕，他退後了一步。
13:46
And I didn't know what to say.
239
814907
1627
我不知道該說什麼。
13:50
Finally, the words came out of my mouth,
and all I could think to say was,
and all I could think to say was,
240
818088
4040
終於，我開口了，
我只能想出這幾個字：
我只能想出這幾個字：
13:54
"I'm sorry."
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822152
1161
「我很抱歉。」
13:56
And he embraced me,
242
824096
1476
他擁抱了我，
13:58
and he forgave me.
243
826391
1429
他原諒了我。
14:01
And he encouraged me to forgive myself.
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829877
2966
他也鼓勵我原諒我自己。
14:06
He recognized that it wasn't the story
of some broken go-nowhere kid
of some broken go-nowhere kid
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834073
6090
他了解到，我的故事並不是
一個破碎且一無所成的孩子，
一個破碎且一無所成的孩子，
14:12
who was going to just
join a gang and go to prison.
join a gang and go to prison.
246
840187
3016
會去加入幫派然後去坐牢。
14:15
He knew that this was the story
of every young person who was vulnerable,
of every young person who was vulnerable,
247
843227
4523
他知道，這是個脆弱
年輕人常見的故事，
年輕人常見的故事，
14:19
who was searching for identity,
community and purpose,
community and purpose,
248
847774
2808
他們在尋找身分、社區，和目的。
14:22
and then hit a wall
249
850606
1406
卻碰壁了，
14:24
and was unable to find it
250
852036
1722
無法找到，
14:25
and went down a dark path.
251
853782
1747
因而走上了黑暗之路。
14:29
And he made me promise one thing,
252
857482
2093
他要我向他保證一件事，
14:31
that I would tell my story
to whoever would listen.
to whoever would listen.
253
859599
3228
保證我會說出我的故事，
給任何願意聽的人。
給任何願意聽的人。
14:34
That was 18 years ago,
254
862851
1582
那是 18 年前，
14:36
and I've been doing it ever since.
255
864457
1798
我從此就一直在這麼做。
14:38
(Applause)
256
866737
4874
（掌聲）
14:49
You might be asking yourself right now:
257
877309
1968
你們現在可能正在心中問：
14:51
How does a good kid from
a hardworking immigrant family
a hardworking immigrant family
258
879301
3022
一個好孩子，來自
辛勤工作的移民家庭，
辛勤工作的移民家庭，
14:54
end up going down such a dark path?
259
882347
2843
怎麼會走上這麼黑暗的路？
14:57
One word: potholes.
260
885214
2680
兩個字：凹坑。
15:00
That's right. Potholes.
261
888508
1718
沒錯。凹坑。
15:02
I had a lot of potholes when I was kid.
262
890250
2533
我小時候，我遇到很多凹坑。
15:05
We all had them --
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893582
1545
我們大家都有過——
15:07
you know, the things in life that we hit
264
895151
2870
這裡的凹坑指的是我們
在人生道路上遇到，
在人生道路上遇到，
15:10
that invariably just kind of
nudge us off our path,
nudge us off our path,
265
898045
2926
把我們推離了我們的正途的東西，
15:12
and if they remain unresolved
266
900995
1682
如果它們一直沒被解決，
15:15
or untreated
267
903442
1239
沒被治療，
15:17
or not dealt with,
268
905697
1421
沒被處理，
15:19
sometimes we can get dangerously lost
down pretty dark corridors.
down pretty dark corridors.
269
907792
3763
有時，我們會危險地
迷失在黑暗的走廊。
迷失在黑暗的走廊。
15:24
Potholes can be things like trauma,
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912228
2183
凹坑有可能是創傷、
15:26
abuse, unemployment,
271
914435
2417
虐待、失業、
15:29
neglect,
272
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1159
忽視、
15:31
untreated mental health conditions,
273
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沒治療的心理疾病、
15:33
even privilege.
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甚至特權。
15:35
And if we hit enough potholes
on our journey in life,
on our journey in life,
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如果在人生旅途上壓到很多，
15:39
and we don't have the resources
or the help to navigate around them
or the help to navigate around them
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且沒有資源或協助來幫我們繞過它們
15:43
or to pull us out,
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或把我們拉出來，
15:46
well, sometimes good people
end up doing bad things.
end up doing bad things.
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有時，好人最後也會做出壞事。
15:52
One such person
who had potholes is Darrell.
who had potholes is Darrell.
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有一個人也遇到凹坑，他叫戴洛。
15:55
Darrell is from upstate New York.
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戴洛來自紐約的邊遠地區。
15:57
He had read my memoir,
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他讀了我的回憶錄，
15:59
and he was really upset about the ending.
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他對結局非常失望。
16:02
You see, I'd gotten out of the movement
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你知道的，我脫離了運動，
16:04
and he was still in.
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他卻還在其中。
16:05
And he emailed me and he said,
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他寫信給我，說：
16:09
"I didn't really like the way
that turned out."
that turned out."
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「我不喜歡最後的轉變。」
16:11
And I said, "Well, I'm sorry."
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我說：「喔，我很抱歉。」
16:13
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
16:15
"But if you want to talk about it,
we could certainly do that."
we could certainly do that."
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「但如果你想談談，
我們可以談談。」
我們可以談談。」
16:18
And after a couple of weeks
of going back and forth with Darrell,
of going back and forth with Darrell,
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和戴洛來來回回幾星期之後，
16:21
I learned he was a 31-year-old
military veteran who had been injured
military veteran who had been injured
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我知道他 31 歲，
是受傷而退伍的軍人，
是受傷而退伍的軍人，
16:26
and was really angry about
not being able to go to Afghanistan
not being able to go to Afghanistan
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對於無法回到阿富汗去殺穆斯林
16:30
to kill Muslims.
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感到很憤怒。
16:32
And one day on the phone,
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有天，在電話上，
16:34
he told me that he had seen
a Muslim man in the park praying,
a Muslim man in the park praying,
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他告訴我，他看到
一名穆斯林男子在公園祈禱，
一名穆斯林男子在公園祈禱，
16:38
and that all he wanted to do
was kick him in the face.
was kick him in the face.
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他只想做一件事，
就是一腳踢在那個人臉上。
就是一腳踢在那個人臉上。
16:43
I flew to Buffalo the next day,
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我隔天飛到水牛城，
16:45
and I sat down with Darrell,
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我和戴洛坐下來談，
16:48
and I asked him,
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我問他：
16:50
"Have you ever met
a Muslim person before?"
a Muslim person before?"
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「你以前有認識過
任何一個穆斯林嗎？」
任何一個穆斯林嗎？」
16:54
And he said, "No!
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他說：「沒有！
16:55
Why the hell would I want to do that?
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我為什麼會想要這麼做？
16:57
They're evil. I don't want
anything to do with them."
anything to do with them."
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他們很邪惡。我不想
和他們扯上關係。」
和他們扯上關係。」
17:01
I said, "OK."
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我說：「好吧。」
17:02
So I excused myself,
and I went into the bathroom
and I went into the bathroom
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所以我請他讓我
暫時離開去一下洗手間，
暫時離開去一下洗手間，
17:04
and I took my phone out in the bathroom,
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我到洗手間就拿出手機，
17:07
and I Googled the local mosque,
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我上網搜尋了當地的清真寺，
17:09
and I called them very quietly
from the bathroom,
from the bathroom,
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我在洗手間小聲地打電話給他們，
17:12
and I said, "Excuse me,
imam, I need a favor.
imam, I need a favor.
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說：「不好意思，伊瑪目，我需要幫忙。
（註：imam，伊斯蘭教的領袖）
（註：imam，伊斯蘭教的領袖）
17:16
I have a Christian man
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我這有個基督徒，
17:17
who would really love to learn more
about your religion."
about your religion."
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他真的很想多了解你們的宗教。」
17:20
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
17:22
"Do you mind if we stop by?"
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「你介不介意我們去拜訪？」
17:26
Well, it took some convincing
for Darrell to go,
for Darrell to go,
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我花了點功夫說服戴洛，
17:29
but finally we got there,
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終於我們去了那裡，
17:31
and when I knocked on the door,
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當我敲門時，
17:32
the imam said he only had
15 minutes left for us,
15 minutes left for us,
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伊瑪目說，他只能
給我們 15 分鐘，
給我們 15 分鐘，
17:35
because he was preparing
for a prayer service.
for a prayer service.
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因為他要準備祈禱儀式。
17:38
I said, "We'll take it."
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我說：「沒問題。」
17:40
We went in,
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我們進去裡面，
17:41
and two and a half hours later,
we came out after hugging and crying
we came out after hugging and crying
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5183
在裡面的這兩個半小時，
我們哭著擁抱彼此，
我們哭著擁抱彼此，
17:46
and, very strangely,
bonding over Chuck Norris for some reason.
bonding over Chuck Norris for some reason.
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很奇妙的是我們還因為某種原因，
透過羅禮士產生連結。
（註：空手道冠軍、美國演員）
（註：空手道冠軍、美國演員）
17:50
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
17:51
I don't know what it was about that,
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我不知道那是怎麼回事，
17:53
but that's what happened.
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1392
但就是發生了。
17:56
And I'm happy to say now
that Darrell and the imam,
that Darrell and the imam,
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我很高興告訴各位，
現在常常可以在當地的
現在常常可以在當地的
17:59
you can often find them
at the local falafel stand,
at the local falafel stand,
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中東蔬菜球攤子看到戴洛和伊瑪目
18:02
having lunch together.
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一起吃中餐。
18:03
(Applause)
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3765
（掌聲）
18:12
You see, it's our disconnection
from each other.
from each other.
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2541
原因只是因為
我們和彼此沒有連結。
我們和彼此沒有連結。
18:14
Hatred is born of ignorance.
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仇恨是來自忽視。
18:17
Fear is its father,
and isolation is its mother.
and isolation is its mother.
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4079
它的父親是恐懼，母親是孤立。
18:21
When we don't understand something,
we tend to be afraid of it,
we tend to be afraid of it,
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3977
我們傾向會害怕自己不了解的東西，
18:25
and if we keep ourselves from it,
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若我們讓自己不要去接近，
18:27
that fear grows, and sometimes,
it turns into hatred.
it turns into hatred.
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3147
恐懼就會加劇，有時會轉變為仇恨。
18:31
Since I've left the movement,
I've helped over a hundred people
I've helped over a hundred people
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離開運動之後，
我已協助過超過一百個人
我已協助過超過一百個人
18:34
disengage from extremist movements,
from white supremacist groups --
from white supremacist groups --
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3318
脫離白人至上主義團體的
極端主義運動——
極端主義運動——
18:37
(Applause)
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3810
（掌聲）
18:46
to even jihadist groups.
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1526
甚至連聖戰團體也有。
18:47
And the way I do that
is not by arguing with them,
is not by arguing with them,
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4557
我的做法，並不是和他們爭論，
18:52
not by debating them,
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1517
不是和他們辯，
18:53
not by even telling them they're wrong,
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甚至不會跟他們說他們錯了，
18:56
even though, boy, I want to sometimes.
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即使有時我真的好想這樣做。
18:58
I don't do that.
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我不會那麼做。
19:00
Instead, I don't push them away.
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反之，我不會把他們推開。
19:02
I draw them in closer,
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1635
我把他們拉得更近，
19:05
and I listen very closely
for their potholes,
for their potholes,
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4363
我非常注意地傾聽他們的凹坑，
19:10
and then I begin to fill them in.
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接著我開始把凹坑填起來。
19:12
I try to make people more resilient,
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我試著讓人們更有韌性，
19:14
more self-confident,
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更有自信，
19:16
more able to have skills
to compete in the marketplace
to compete in the marketplace
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更能夠有技能在市場中競爭，
19:20
so that they don't have
to blame the other,
to blame the other,
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這樣他們就不用責怪對方，
19:24
the other that they've never met.
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他們從來沒認識過的對方。
19:27
I'd like to just leave you
with one last thing before I go.
with one last thing before I go.
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在我結束之前，
我想再留給各位一個想法。
我想再留給各位一個想法。
19:32
Of all the people I've worked with,
they will all tell you the same thing.
they will all tell you the same thing.
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所有我幫助過的人，
他們都會告訴你同樣的事。
他們都會告訴你同樣的事。
19:36
One, they became extremists
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第一，他們變成極端主義分子
19:40
because they wanted to belong,
not because of ideology or dogma.
not because of ideology or dogma.
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因為他們想有所歸屬，
而不是因為意識形態或教義。
而不是因為意識形態或教義。
19:44
And second, what brought them out
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第二，讓他們脫離的原因，
19:48
was receiving compassion
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是得到同理心，
19:50
from the people
they least deserved it from,
they least deserved it from,
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來自最不應該同理他們的人，
在他們最不值得被同理的時候。
19:53
when they least deserved it.
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1653
19:54
(Applause)
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2097
（掌聲）
19:57
So I would like
to leave you with a challenge:
to leave you with a challenge:
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所以我想留給各位一個挑戰：
19:59
go out there today, tomorrow --
hopefully every day --
hopefully every day --
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離開這裡之後，
今天、明天，希望是每一天，
今天、明天，希望是每一天，
20:04
find somebody that you think
is undeserving of your compassion
is undeserving of your compassion
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找到一個你認為不值得你同理的人，
20:08
and give it to them,
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去同理他，
20:10
because I guarantee you,
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因為，我敢保證，
20:12
they're the ones who need it the most.
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他們是最需要同理心的人。
20:14
Thank you very much.
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非常謝謝。
20:15
(Applause)
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1963
（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Christian Picciolini - Counter-extremism specialistChristian Picciolini is dedicated to helping others counter racism and extremism.
Why you should listen
After leaving the white supremacist skinhead movement he helped build in America during the 1980s and 90s, Christian Picciolini earned a degree in international relations from DePaul University. He launched Goldmill Group, a global media and counter-extremism consulting firm. In 2016, he won an Emmy Award for his role in producing an anti-hate advertising campaign aimed at helping people disengage from violent extremist groups. His life since leaving the white-supremacist movement over two decades ago has been dedicated to helping others counter racism and extremism by founding such organizations as ExitUSA and Life After Hate.
Picciolini has spoken all over the world, sharing his unique and extensive knowledge, teaching all who are willing to learn about building greater peace through empathy and compassion. His involvement in the early American skinhead movement is chronicled in his memoir WHITE AMERICAN YOUTH: My Descent into America’s Most Violent Hate Movement—and How I Got Out (Hachette). He is co-developing a television docu-series based on his work helping people disengage from violent ideologies.
Christian Picciolini | Speaker | TED.com