Global Witness
Robert Palmer: The Panama Papers exposed a huge global problem. What's next?
Robert Palmer: Panama papirerne afslørede et stort globalt problem. Hvad nu?
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Den 3. april 2016 oplevede vi historiens største læk af data. Panama papirerne afslørede rige og magtfulde mennesker, som skjulte store summer af penge i offshore kontoer. Men hvad betyder dette? Vi fik Robert Palmer fra Global Witness til at undersøge det.
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global Witness
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
[On April 3, 2016 we saw
the largest data leak in history.]
the largest data leak in history.]
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[Den 3. april 2016 oplevede vi historiens
største læk af data.]
største læk af data.]
00:18
[The Panama Papers exposed
rich and powerful people]
rich and powerful people]
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[Panama papirerne afslørede
rige og magtfulde mennesker,]
rige og magtfulde mennesker,]
00:20
[hiding vast amounts of money
in offshore accounts.]
in offshore accounts.]
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[som skjulte store summer af penge
i offshore kontoer.]
i offshore kontoer.]
00:23
[What does this mean?]
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[Hvad betyder dette?]
00:27
[We called Robert Palmer
of Global Witness to explain.]
of Global Witness to explain.]
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[Vi fik Robert Palmer fra
Global Witness til at forklare.]
Global Witness til at forklare.]
00:32
This week, there have been
a whole slew and deluge of stories
a whole slew and deluge of stories
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I denne uge har der været
et stort antal af historier,
et stort antal af historier,
00:37
coming out from the leak
of 11 million documents
of 11 million documents
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der kommer fra lækket
af elleve millioner dokumenter
af elleve millioner dokumenter
00:41
from a Panamanian-based law firm
called Mossack Fonseca.
called Mossack Fonseca.
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fra et Panama baseret advokatfirma,
kaldet Mossack Fonseca.
kaldet Mossack Fonseca.
00:45
The release of these papers from Panama
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
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Afsløringen af disse papirer fra Panama
løfter sløret for en lille del
løfter sløret for en lille del
00:51
of the secretive offshore world.
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af den hemmelighedsfulde offshore verden.
00:53
We get an insight into how clients
and banks and lawyers
and banks and lawyers
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Vi får et indblik i, hvordan klienter,
banker og advokater
banker og advokater
00:58
go to companies like Mossack Fonseca
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går til firmaer som Mossack Fonseca
01:01
and say, "OK, we want
an anonymous company,
an anonymous company,
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og siger, "Ok, vi søger et anonymt firma,
01:03
can you give us one?"
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kan i skaffe os et?"
01:04
So you actually get to see the emails,
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Man får lov til at se e-mails,
01:06
you get to see the exchanges of messages,
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man får lov til at se beskedudvekslinger,
01:08
you get to see the mechanics
of how this works,
of how this works,
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man får lov til at se,
hvordan det fungerer,
hvordan det fungerer,
01:11
how this operates.
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01:13
Now, this has already started
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
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Det har allerede haft meget
umiddelbare følgevirkninger.
umiddelbare følgevirkninger.
01:17
The Prime Minister
of Iceland has resigned.
of Iceland has resigned.
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Islands premierminister er trådt tilbage.
01:20
We've also had news
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Vi har også fået af vide,
01:21
that an ally of the brutal
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
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at en allieret til den syriske diktator
Bashar Al-Assad
Bashar Al-Assad
01:26
has also got offshore companies.
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har offshore selskaber.
01:28
There's been allegations
of a $2 billion money trail
of a $2 billion money trail
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Der har været påstande om,
at et 2 mia. dollar pengespor
at et 2 mia. dollar pengespor
01:34
that leads back to President
Vladimir Putin of Russia
Vladimir Putin of Russia
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fører tilbage til
præsident Vladimir Putin i Rusland
præsident Vladimir Putin i Rusland
01:38
via his close childhood friend,
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via hans tætte barndomsven,
01:40
who happens to be a top cellist.
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som tilfældigvis er en af de bedste
cellospillere.
cellospillere.
01:42
And there will be a lot
of rich individuals out there
of rich individuals out there
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Der er en masse rige individer
01:45
and others who will be nervous
about the next set of stories
about the next set of stories
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og andre, som vil være nervøse
for de næste historier
for de næste historier
01:49
and the next set of leaked documents.
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og de næste lækkede dokumenter.
01:52
Now, this sounds like the plot
of a spy thriller
of a spy thriller
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Det lyder som et plot
til en spion thriller
til en spion thriller
01:56
or a John Grisham novel.
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eller en John Grisham roman.
01:58
It seems very distant
from you, me, ordinary people.
from you, me, ordinary people.
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Det virker meget distanceret
fra dig, mig, normale mennesker.
fra dig, mig, normale mennesker.
02:02
Why should we care about this?
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Hvorfor skal vi bekymre os om dette?
02:04
But the truth is that if rich
and powerful individuals
and powerful individuals
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Men sandheden er, at hvis rige
og magtfulde individer
og magtfulde individer
02:09
are able to keep their money offshore
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kan holde deres penge offshore
02:11
and not pay the taxes that they should,
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og undgå at betale skat,
som de skulle,
som de skulle,
02:14
it means that there is less money
for vital public services
for vital public services
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så er der færre penge til
vigtige, offentlige tjenester
vigtige, offentlige tjenester
02:18
like healthcare, education, roads.
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såsom sundhedsvæsenet, uddannelse, veje.
02:21
And that affects all of us.
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Og det påvirker os alle sammen.
02:24
Now, for my organization Global Witness,
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For min organisation Global Witness
02:26
this exposé has been phenomenal.
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har disse afsløringer været fænomenale.
02:30
We have the world's media
and political leaders
and political leaders
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Vi har fået verdens medier
og politiske ledere
og politiske ledere
02:35
talking about how individuals
can use offshore secrecy
can use offshore secrecy
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til at snakke om, hvordan nogen
kan bruge hemmelige offshore selskaber
kan bruge hemmelige offshore selskaber
02:40
to hide and disguise their assets --
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til at skjule deres aktiver --
02:42
something we have been talking about
and exposing for a decade.
and exposing for a decade.
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noget vi har snakket om
og afsløret i et årti.
og afsløret i et årti.
02:47
Now, I think a lot of people find
this entire world baffling and confusing,
this entire world baffling and confusing,
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Jeg tror, at en masse mennesker
finder hele denne verden forbløffende
finder hele denne verden forbløffende
02:52
and hard to understand how
this sort of offshore world works.
this sort of offshore world works.
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og at de synes, at denne form for offshore
verden er svær at forstå.
verden er svær at forstå.
02:56
I like to think of it a bit
like a Russian doll.
like a Russian doll.
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Jeg betragter det lidt som
en russisk dukke.
en russisk dukke.
02:59
So you can have one company
stacked inside another company,
stacked inside another company,
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Man kan have et firma
inde i et andet firma,
inde i et andet firma,
03:02
stacked inside another company,
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som er inde i et andet firma,
03:05
making it almost impossible
to really understand
to really understand
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hvilket gør det næsten umuligt
at forstå,
at forstå,
03:09
who is behind these structures.
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hvem der står bag disse strukturer.
03:11
It can be very difficult
for law enforcement
for law enforcement
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Det kan være meget svært
for dem, der håndhæver loven
for dem, der håndhæver loven
03:14
or tax authorities,
journalists, civil society
journalists, civil society
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eller skattemyndigheder,
journalister, civilsamfundet
journalister, civilsamfundet
03:17
to really understand what's going on.
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virkelig at forstå, hvad der foregår.
03:20
I also think it's interesting
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Jeg synes også, at det er interessant,
03:21
that there's been less coverage
of this issue in the United States.
of this issue in the United States.
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at der har været mindre dækning
af emnet i USA.
af emnet i USA.
03:25
And that's perhaps because
some prominent US people
some prominent US people
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Og det er måske fordi,
nogen fremtrædende folk fra USA
nogen fremtrædende folk fra USA
03:28
just haven't figured
in this exposé, in this scandal.
in this exposé, in this scandal.
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ikke har optrådt i disse afsløringer,
i denne skandale.
i denne skandale.
03:33
Now, that's not because
there are no rich Americans
there are no rich Americans
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Det er ikke fordi,
der ikke er nogen rige amerikanere,
der ikke er nogen rige amerikanere,
03:37
who are stashing their assets offshore.
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som gemmer deres værdier offshore.
03:40
It's just because of the way
in which offshore works,
in which offshore works,
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Det er bare på grund af
den måde offshore fungerer på,
den måde offshore fungerer på,
03:43
Mossack Fonseca has fewer
American clients.
American clients.
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Mossack Fonseca har færre
amerikanske klienter.
amerikanske klienter.
03:47
I think if we saw leaks
from the Cayman Islands
from the Cayman Islands
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Jeg tror, at hvis vi så et læk
fra Caymanøerne
fra Caymanøerne
03:50
or even from Delaware
or Wyoming or Nevada,
or Wyoming or Nevada,
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eller endda Delaware,
eller Wyoming eller Nevada,
eller Wyoming eller Nevada,
03:54
you would see many more cases
and examples linking back to Americans.
and examples linking back to Americans.
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ville man se flere tilfælde og eksempler,
der går tilbage til amerikanere.
der går tilbage til amerikanere.
04:00
In fact, in a number of US states
you need less information,
you need less information,
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Faktisk skal man i mange
amerikanske stater
amerikanske stater
skaffe færre oplysninger
for at starte et firma,
for at starte et firma,
04:06
you need to provide less
information to get a company
information to get a company
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04:10
than you do to get a library card.
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end du skal for at få et lånerkort til biblioteket.
04:13
That sort of secrecy in America
has allowed employees of school districts
has allowed employees of school districts
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Den form for hemmeligholdelse
har gjort det muligt for ansatte i skoledistrikter
har gjort det muligt for ansatte i skoledistrikter
04:19
to rip off schoolchildren.
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at snyde skolebørn.
04:20
It has allowed scammers
to rip off vulnerable investors.
to rip off vulnerable investors.
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Det har tilladt svindlere
at snyde sårbare investorer.
at snyde sårbare investorer.
04:26
This is the sort of behavior
that affects all of us.
that affects all of us.
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Dette er den form for adfærd,
der påvirker os alle sammen.
der påvirker os alle sammen.
04:30
Now, at Global Witness,
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Hos Global Witness
04:32
we wanted to see what this
actually looked like in practice.
actually looked like in practice.
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ville vi se, hvordan dette
rent faktisk så ud i praksis
rent faktisk så ud i praksis
04:35
How does this actually work?
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Hvordan fungerer det egentlig?
04:37
So what we did
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Det, vi gjorde var,
04:38
is we sent in an undercover investigator
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
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at vi sendte en undercover efterforsker
til tretten advokatfirmaer på Manhattan.
til tretten advokatfirmaer på Manhattan.
04:45
Our investigator posed
as an African minister
as an African minister
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Vores efterforsker optrådte
som en afrikansk minister,
som en afrikansk minister,
04:49
who wanted to move suspect funds
into the United States
into the United States
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som ønskede at flytte
mistænkelige midler til USA
mistænkelige midler til USA
04:53
to buy a house, a yacht, a jet.
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for at købe et hus, en yacht, et jetfly.
04:57
Now, what was truly shocking
was that all but one of those lawyers
was that all but one of those lawyers
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Det der var virkelig chokerende var,
at alle advokaterne undtagen én
at alle advokaterne undtagen én
05:02
provided our investigator with suggestions
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forsynede vores efterforsker
med forslag
med forslag
05:06
on how to move those suspect funds.
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til hvordan, man kan flytte
disse mistænkelige midler.
disse mistænkelige midler.
05:08
These were all preliminary meetings,
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Det var alle indledende møder,
05:10
and none of the lawyers
took us on as a client
took us on as a client
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og ingen af advokaterne
valgte at repræsentere os,
valgte at repræsentere os,
05:13
and of course no money moved hands,
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og selvfølgelig var der ingen penge,
der skiftede hænder,
der skiftede hænder,
05:15
but it really shows the problem
with the system.
with the system.
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men det viser virkelig det problem,
der er med systemet.
der er med systemet.
05:18
It's also important
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Det er også vigtigt
05:20
to not just think about this
as individual cases.
as individual cases.
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ikke bare at se dette
som en individuel sag.
som en individuel sag.
05:24
This is not just about
an individual lawyer
an individual lawyer
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Dette handler ikke kun
om en enkelt advokat,
om en enkelt advokat,
05:26
who's spoken to our undercover
investigator and provided suggestions.
investigator and provided suggestions.
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som har snakket med vores undercover
efterforsker og kommet med forslag.
efterforsker og kommet med forslag.
05:30
It's not just about
a particular senior politician
a particular senior politician
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Det handler ikke kun
om en enkelt, højtstående politiker,
om en enkelt, højtstående politiker,
05:33
who's been caught up in a scandal.
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som er blevet taget i en skandale.
05:34
This is about how a system works,
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Det her handler om,
hvordan systemet
hvordan systemet
05:37
that entrenches corruption,
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
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forankrer korruption, skatteunddragelse,
fattigdom og ustabilitet.
fattigdom og ustabilitet.
05:43
And in order to tackle this,
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For at håndtere dette
05:45
we need to change the game.
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bliver vi nødt til at
ændre spillets regler,
ændre spillets regler,
05:47
We need to change the rules of the game
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05:50
to make this sort of behavior harder.
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så denne form for
adfærd bliver sværere.
adfærd bliver sværere.
05:52
This may seem like doom and gloom,
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Det virker måske lidt dystert og trist,
05:54
like there's nothing we can do about it,
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som om vi ikke kan gøre
noget ved det,
noget ved det,
05:56
like nothing has ever changed,
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som om der ikke er noget,
der har ændret sig,
der har ændret sig,
05:58
like there will always be rich
and powerful individuals.
and powerful individuals.
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som om der altid vil være
rige og magtfulde individer.
rige og magtfulde individer.
06:01
But as a natural optimist,
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Men som en naturlig optimist
06:04
I do see that we are starting
to get some change.
to get some change.
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kan jeg se, at der er noget,
der er ved at ændre sig.
der er ved at ændre sig.
06:07
Over the last couple of years,
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Igennem de sidste par år
06:09
we've seen a real push towards
greater transparency
greater transparency
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har vi set en tendens
til større gennemsigtighed,
til større gennemsigtighed,
06:13
when it comes to company ownership.
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når det kommer til
ejerskab af virksomheder.
ejerskab af virksomheder.
06:15
This issue was put on the political agenda
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Dette emne var sat på den
politiske dagsorden
politiske dagsorden
06:18
by the UK Prime Minister David Cameron
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af Storbritanniens premierminister
David Cameron
David Cameron
06:20
at a big G8 Summit that was held
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
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ved G8-topmødet, der blev
afholdt i Nordirland i 2013.
afholdt i Nordirland i 2013.
06:25
And since then, the European Union
is going to be creating
is going to be creating
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Og siden da er EU gået
i gang med at skabe
i gang med at skabe
06:30
central registers at a national level
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et nationalt centralregister
over hvem,
over hvem,
06:32
of who really owns and controls
companies across Europe.
companies across Europe.
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der virkelig ejer
og styrer virksomheder i Europa.
og styrer virksomheder i Europa.
06:35
One of the things that is sad is that,
actually, the US is lagging behind.
actually, the US is lagging behind.
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Det triste er, at USA faktisk
sakker bagud.
sakker bagud.
06:40
There's bipartisan legislation
that had been introduced
that had been introduced
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Der findes en tværpolitisk lovgivning,
der er blevet introduceret i
der er blevet introduceret i
06:43
in the House and the Senate,
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Repræsentanternes hus og Senatet,
06:45
but it isn't making as much progress
as we'd like to see.
as we'd like to see.
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men der er ikke så meget fremgang,
som vi gerne ville se.
som vi gerne ville se.
06:48
So we'd really want to see
the Panama leaks,
the Panama leaks,
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Vi ville gerne se Panama papirerne,
06:51
this huge peek into the offshore world,
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dette kæmpe indblik ind i offshore verdenen,
06:55
be used as a way of opening up
in the US and around the world.
in the US and around the world.
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blive brugt som en måde at åbne op på
i USA og rundt omkring i verden.
i USA og rundt omkring i verden.
07:00
For us at Global Witness,
this is a moment for change.
this is a moment for change.
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For os her hos Global Witness
er dette en tid for forandring.
er dette en tid for forandring.
07:05
We need ordinary people to get angry
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Vi har brug for, at almindelige
mennesker bliver sure
mennesker bliver sure
07:09
at the way in which people
can hide their identity
can hide their identity
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over den måde, man kan
skjule sin identitet på
skjule sin identitet på
07:12
behind secret companies.
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ved at gemme sig bag
hemmelige selskaber.
hemmelige selskaber.
07:14
We need business leaders
to stand up and say,
to stand up and say,
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Vi har brug for at virksomhedsledere
rejser sig og siger,
rejser sig og siger,
07:18
"Secrecy like this is not
good for business."
good for business."
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"Hemmeligholdelse på denne måde
er ikke godt for erhvervslivet."
er ikke godt for erhvervslivet."
07:21
We need political leaders
to recognize the problem,
to recognize the problem,
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Vi har brug for, at politiske ledere
anerkender problemet
anerkender problemet
07:26
and to commit to changing the law
to open up this sort of secrecy.
to open up this sort of secrecy.
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og forpligter sig til at ændre lovgivningen
for at åbne op for denne hemmeligholdelse.
for at åbne op for denne hemmeligholdelse.
07:31
Together, we can end the secrecy
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Sammen kan vi ændre
denne hemmeligholdelse,
denne hemmeligholdelse,
07:34
that is currently allowing tax evasion,
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som lige nu tillader skatteunddragelse,
07:38
corruption, money laundering to flourish.
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korruption og hvidvaskning af penge.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global WitnessRobert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes.
Why you should listen
Robert Palmer is the Banks and Corruption Campaign Leader for Global Witness, whose founder Charmian Gooch won the TED Prize in 2014. The Nobel-prize nominated organization is dedicated to breaking the links between natural resources, conflict and corruption.
Palmer has led a number of high profile investigations. These include exposing how corrupt Nigerian politicians used British high street banks to move bribe money; uncovering which global banks held $65 billion of Libyan government funds; and organizing an undercover sting to show how corrupt officials can move suspect funds into the U.S. with the help of New York lawyers.
Palmer is an expert in the global anti-money laundering framework and helps to develop practical policy solutions to improve its effectiveness. He helps to lead a global coalition of civil society groups campaigning for an end to the abuse of the financial system by corrupt officials. This has led to new transparency laws in the UK and EU to tackle anonymously owned companies.
Robert Palmer | Speaker | TED.com