Global Witness
Robert Palmer: The Panama Papers exposed a huge global problem. What's next?
羅伯特．帕爾默: 巴拿馬文件曝露了一個廣大的全球問題，接下來又會是什麼呢？
Filmed:
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1,097,225 views
2016 年 4 月 3 日，我們看到了史上最大宗的資料外流事件。巴拿馬報告讓權貴者們藏在海外帳戶的巨額款項曝光。但這代表了什麼？我們請到「全球見證」的羅伯特．帕爾默（Robert Palmer）來找答案。
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global Witness
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
[On April 3, 2016 we saw
the largest data leak in history.]
the largest data leak in history.]
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［ 2016 年 4 月 3 號我們看到了
史上最大宗的資料檔案洩密］
史上最大宗的資料檔案洩密］
00:18
[The Panama Papers exposed
rich and powerful people]
rich and powerful people]
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［ 巴拿馬文件揭穿了權貴者們
一直隱藏在海外帳戶的巨款 ］
一直隱藏在海外帳戶的巨款 ］
00:20
[hiding vast amounts of money
in offshore accounts.]
in offshore accounts.]
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00:23
[What does this mean?]
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［ 這有什麼涵意呢？］
00:27
[We called Robert Palmer
of Global Witness to explain.]
of Global Witness to explain.]
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［我們找來「全球見證」的
羅伯特．帕爾默為我們說明］
羅伯特．帕爾默為我們說明］
00:32
This week, there have been
a whole slew and deluge of stories
a whole slew and deluge of stories
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本周從巴拿馬的
莫薩克．馮塞卡律師事務所
莫薩克．馮塞卡律師事務所
00:37
coming out from the leak
of 11 million documents
of 11 million documents
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外洩出的 1,100 萬份文件，
00:41
from a Panamanian-based law firm
called Mossack Fonseca.
called Mossack Fonseca.
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為我們帶來了整體大量的驚人故事。
00:45
The release of these papers from Panama
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
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這些巴拉拿文件的公布
揭開了鮮為人知之
離岸公司世界的滄海一粟
離岸公司世界的滄海一粟
00:51
of the secretive offshore world.
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00:53
We get an insight into how clients
and banks and lawyers
and banks and lawyers
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我們見識到委託人、銀行以及律師們
00:58
go to companies like Mossack Fonseca
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如何找上像莫薩克．馮塞卡這種公司，
01:01
and say, "OK, we want
an anonymous company,
an anonymous company,
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開口說：「我們要開一間不記名公司，
01:03
can you give us one?"
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可以幫我們搞一個嗎？」
01:04
So you actually get to see the emails,
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所以你一定要去看看這些電子郵件、
01:06
you get to see the exchanges of messages,
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一定要去看看他們往來的信息、
01:08
you get to see the mechanics
of how this works,
of how this works,
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一定要去了解這個機制是
如何進行、如何運作的。
如何進行、如何運作的。
01:11
how this operates.
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01:13
Now, this has already started
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
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如今這事已經開始有了噩耗影響──
01:17
The Prime Minister
of Iceland has resigned.
of Iceland has resigned.
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冰島總理已經引辭。
01:20
We've also had news
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我們也已經有了消息指出
01:21
that an ally of the brutal
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
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敘利亞獨裁者
巴沙爾．阿薩德的一名同夥
巴沙爾．阿薩德的一名同夥
01:26
has also got offshore companies.
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也有好幾間離岸公司。
01:28
There's been allegations
of a $2 billion money trail
of a $2 billion money trail
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也有指控說 20 億美金的金流
01:34
that leads back to President
Vladimir Putin of Russia
Vladimir Putin of Russia
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透過俄羅斯總統 普丁的
兒時密友回流給他，
兒時密友回流給他，
01:38
via his close childhood friend,
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該玩伴後來變成了頂尖的大提琴家。
01:40
who happens to be a top cellist.
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01:42
And there will be a lot
of rich individuals out there
of rich individuals out there
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而且將會有很多除此其外的
富豪和其他人等
富豪和其他人等
01:45
and others who will be nervous
about the next set of stories
about the next set of stories
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將要開始擔心下一波新聞
01:49
and the next set of leaked documents.
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和下一批外洩檔案。
01:52
Now, this sounds like the plot
of a spy thriller
of a spy thriller
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這現在聽起來像是間諜小說的故事，
01:56
or a John Grisham novel.
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或是約翰．葛里遜的小說，
01:58
It seems very distant
from you, me, ordinary people.
from you, me, ordinary people.
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聽起來對你、我和一般大眾
好像非常遙不可及的。
好像非常遙不可及的。
02:02
Why should we care about this?
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為何我們應該在意呢？
02:04
But the truth is that if rich
and powerful individuals
and powerful individuals
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真相是因為如果權貴者們
得以把錢滯留在海外，
得以把錢滯留在海外，
02:09
are able to keep their money offshore
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02:11
and not pay the taxes that they should,
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而不繳交他們應付的稅金，
02:14
it means that there is less money
for vital public services
for vital public services
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這就代表用來做必要之
公共服務的錢比較少了──
公共服務的錢比較少了──
02:18
like healthcare, education, roads.
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像是醫療、教育、修橋鋪路，
02:21
And that affects all of us.
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而那樣就影響到我們所有人了。
02:24
Now, for my organization Global Witness,
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在我們「全球見證」裡面，
02:26
this exposé has been phenomenal.
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這件大爆料是不得了的。
02:30
We have the world's media
and political leaders
and political leaders
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我們找來各國媒體與政治領袖
02:35
talking about how individuals
can use offshore secrecy
can use offshore secrecy
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談論關於私人如何使用離岸公司的保密性
02:40
to hide and disguise their assets --
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來藏匿和粉飾他們的資產──
02:42
something we have been talking about
and exposing for a decade.
and exposing for a decade.
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我們已經不停談論並揭發長達十年了。
02:47
Now, I think a lot of people find
this entire world baffling and confusing,
this entire world baffling and confusing,
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現在很多人發現到這整個境外天地
是猜不透和令人困惑的，
是猜不透和令人困惑的，
02:52
and hard to understand how
this sort of offshore world works.
this sort of offshore world works.
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而且很難理解這種境外天地如何運作；
02:56
I like to think of it a bit
like a Russian doll.
like a Russian doll.
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我喜歡把它們想成有點像俄羅斯娃娃，
02:59
So you can have one company
stacked inside another company,
stacked inside another company,
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所以你可以把一間公司
完好收進另一間公司裡，
完好收進另一間公司裡，
03:02
stacked inside another company,
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再完好收進另一家公司裡，
03:05
making it almost impossible
to really understand
to really understand
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讓它幾乎無法讓人理解，
究竟幕後真正的黑手是誰。
究竟幕後真正的黑手是誰。
03:09
who is behind these structures.
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03:11
It can be very difficult
for law enforcement
for law enforcement
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對執法單位、稅務機關、
記者、公民團體而言
記者、公民團體而言
03:14
or tax authorities,
journalists, civil society
journalists, civil society
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03:17
to really understand what's going on.
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要了解究竟怎麼回事真的是很困難。
另外我也覺得有趣的是──
03:20
I also think it's interesting
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03:21
that there's been less coverage
of this issue in the United States.
of this issue in the United States.
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在美國這個議題的報導很少，
03:25
And that's perhaps because
some prominent US people
some prominent US people
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可能是因為一些有頭臉的美國人
03:28
just haven't figured
in this exposé, in this scandal.
in this exposé, in this scandal.
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僅僅還沒在這個大爆料、
醜聞裡被點到名。
醜聞裡被點到名。
03:33
Now, that's not because
there are no rich Americans
there are no rich Americans
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並不是因為沒有美國的富人
不斷大量藏匿資產在海外，
03:37
who are stashing their assets offshore.
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03:40
It's just because of the way
in which offshore works,
in which offshore works,
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只是因為境外天地運作的該管道──
03:43
Mossack Fonseca has fewer
American clients.
American clients.
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莫薩克．馮賽卡有著
較少的美國委託人。
較少的美國委託人。
03:47
I think if we saw leaks
from the Cayman Islands
from the Cayman Islands
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我認為如果我們去看來自開曼群島、
03:50
or even from Delaware
or Wyoming or Nevada,
or Wyoming or Nevada,
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甚或德拉瓦、懷俄明、
內華達州的洩密案件，
內華達州的洩密案件，
03:54
you would see many more cases
and examples linking back to Americans.
and examples linking back to Americans.
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你會看到多許多的案例
背後牽扯上美國人。
背後牽扯上美國人。
04:00
In fact, in a number of US states
you need less information,
you need less information,
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事實上美國有幾個州
你只需提供一點點資料，
你只需提供一點點資料，
04:06
you need to provide less
information to get a company
information to get a company
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比申請圖書館證還要少的資料，
你就可以申請到一家公司。
你就可以申請到一家公司。
04:10
than you do to get a library card.
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04:13
That sort of secrecy in America
has allowed employees of school districts
has allowed employees of school districts
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在美國的這種黑箱已經放任
學區的職員欺詐學生，
學區的職員欺詐學生，
04:19
to rip off schoolchildren.
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04:20
It has allowed scammers
to rip off vulnerable investors.
to rip off vulnerable investors.
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甚至還放任詐騙集團
詐騙易受騙的投資人。
詐騙易受騙的投資人。
04:26
This is the sort of behavior
that affects all of us.
that affects all of us.
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這類行為影響到我們全部人。
04:30
Now, at Global Witness,
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我們「全球見證」想要知道
在實務面這個到底是什麼樣貌？
在實務面這個到底是什麼樣貌？
04:32
we wanted to see what this
actually looked like in practice.
actually looked like in practice.
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這究竟是如何運作的？
04:35
How does this actually work?
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04:37
So what we did
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我們當時做的就是
把一名持假身分的調查員
把一名持假身分的調查員
04:38
is we sent in an undercover investigator
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
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送到曼哈頓的13 間律師事務所裡，
04:45
Our investigator posed
as an African minister
as an African minister
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我們的調查員喬裝成一名非洲高官，
想把來路不明的資金移到美國的，
04:49
who wanted to move suspect funds
into the United States
into the United States
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04:53
to buy a house, a yacht, a jet.
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來購買房子、遊艇、噴射機；
04:57
Now, what was truly shocking
was that all but one of those lawyers
was that all but one of those lawyers
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讓我們真正震驚的是
所有律師中竟有一位
所有律師中竟有一位
05:02
provided our investigator with suggestions
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給我們的調查員一個
如何移動這筆資金的建議。
如何移動這筆資金的建議。
05:06
on how to move those suspect funds.
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這些全都只是初來乍到的會面，
05:08
These were all preliminary meetings,
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05:10
and none of the lawyers
took us on as a client
took us on as a client
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而且都沒有律師把我們
視為委託人承接案件，
視為委託人承接案件，
05:13
and of course no money moved hands,
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當然也就沒有錢轉手了，
05:15
but it really shows the problem
with the system.
with the system.
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但是確實顯示出這個體系有了問題。
05:18
It's also important
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同樣重要的是不要把
這件事當成不過就是私人個案，
這件事當成不過就是私人個案，
05:20
to not just think about this
as individual cases.
as individual cases.
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05:24
This is not just about
an individual lawyer
an individual lawyer
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這不光是單獨一位律師跟
我們調查員洽談跟給建言有關，
我們調查員洽談跟給建言有關，
05:26
who's spoken to our undercover
investigator and provided suggestions.
investigator and provided suggestions.
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05:30
It's not just about
a particular senior politician
a particular senior politician
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也不光是特定的資深政治人物
在醜聞中被抓到了；
在醜聞中被抓到了；
05:33
who's been caught up in a scandal.
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05:34
This is about how a system works,
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這是關於我們的系統如何運行
05:37
that entrenches corruption,
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
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加深了腐敗、逃漏稅、
貧窮、社會的不安定。
貧窮、社會的不安定。
05:43
And in order to tackle this,
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為了解決掉這件事，
05:45
we need to change the game.
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我們必須改變遊戲，
05:47
We need to change the rules of the game
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我們必須改變遊戲規則，
05:50
to make this sort of behavior harder.
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來讓這種行為更為困難。
05:52
This may seem like doom and gloom,
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這看起來好像沒甚麼希望，
05:54
like there's nothing we can do about it,
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好像我們都沒轍一樣，
05:56
like nothing has ever changed,
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好像沒有事情會改變一樣，
05:58
like there will always be rich
and powerful individuals.
and powerful individuals.
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好像永遠都會有權貴者在。
06:01
But as a natural optimist,
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但身為一位天生的樂觀主義者，
06:04
I do see that we are starting
to get some change.
to get some change.
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我真的看到了我們正開始要改變。
06:07
Over the last couple of years,
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最近這幾年來
06:09
we've seen a real push towards
greater transparency
greater transparency
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提到公司的持有人時我們已經看到
公司更加透明化的實質推動。
公司更加透明化的實質推動。
06:13
when it comes to company ownership.
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06:15
This issue was put on the political agenda
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這件事情被英國首相 大衛．卡麥隆
06:18
by the UK Prime Minister David Cameron
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在 2013 年北愛爾蘭舉行的
G8 高峰會放在政治議題上。
G8 高峰會放在政治議題上。
06:20
at a big G8 Summit that was held
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
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06:25
And since then, the European Union
is going to be creating
is going to be creating
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自此歐盟打算建立
國家層級的中央註冊中心，
國家層級的中央註冊中心，
06:30
central registers at a national level
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說明清楚是誰真正持有、
控制這些歐洲境內的公司。
控制這些歐洲境內的公司。
06:32
of who really owns and controls
companies across Europe.
companies across Europe.
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06:35
One of the things that is sad is that,
actually, the US is lagging behind.
actually, the US is lagging behind.
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但令人難過的事是美國實際上
還在後面托拖拉拉。
還在後面托拖拉拉。
06:40
There's bipartisan legislation
that had been introduced
that had been introduced
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兩黨共推的法案已經
被提案進參、眾兩院，
被提案進參、眾兩院，
06:43
in the House and the Senate,
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06:45
but it isn't making as much progress
as we'd like to see.
as we'd like to see.
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但是並沒有做出我們想要看到的進展。
06:48
So we'd really want to see
the Panama leaks,
the Panama leaks,
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所以我們真的很想看到巴拿馬文件，
06:51
this huge peek into the offshore world,
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被用來作為公佈在美國
和世界各處的黑箱，
和世界各處的黑箱，
06:55
be used as a way of opening up
in the US and around the world.
in the US and around the world.
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這個對離岸公司世界的大肆窺探。
07:00
For us at Global Witness,
this is a moment for change.
this is a moment for change.
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對「全球見證」的我們來說
現在是求取改變的時刻，
現在是求取改變的時刻，
07:05
We need ordinary people to get angry
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我們需要小老百姓對有人可以在
黑箱公司背後隱藏身份的方法感到生氣。
黑箱公司背後隱藏身份的方法感到生氣。
07:09
at the way in which people
can hide their identity
can hide their identity
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07:12
behind secret companies.
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07:14
We need business leaders
to stand up and say,
to stand up and say,
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我們想要商業領袖站出來說：
07:18
"Secrecy like this is not
good for business."
good for business."
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「這樣做生意的方式是不對的」；
07:21
We need political leaders
to recognize the problem,
to recognize the problem,
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我們需要政治領袖們體認到這個問題，
07:26
and to commit to changing the law
to open up this sort of secrecy.
to open up this sort of secrecy.
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並承諾修改法律來打開這些黑箱。
07:31
Together, we can end the secrecy
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我們一起來就能終止這個黑箱－
07:34
that is currently allowing tax evasion,
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目前正放任逃漏稅、貪汙、
洗錢蓬勃滋生。
洗錢蓬勃滋生。
07:38
corruption, money laundering to flourish.
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global WitnessRobert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes.
Why you should listen
Robert Palmer is the Banks and Corruption Campaign Leader for Global Witness, whose founder Charmian Gooch won the TED Prize in 2014. The Nobel-prize nominated organization is dedicated to breaking the links between natural resources, conflict and corruption.
Palmer has led a number of high profile investigations. These include exposing how corrupt Nigerian politicians used British high street banks to move bribe money; uncovering which global banks held $65 billion of Libyan government funds; and organizing an undercover sting to show how corrupt officials can move suspect funds into the U.S. with the help of New York lawyers.
Palmer is an expert in the global anti-money laundering framework and helps to develop practical policy solutions to improve its effectiveness. He helps to lead a global coalition of civil society groups campaigning for an end to the abuse of the financial system by corrupt officials. This has led to new transparency laws in the UK and EU to tackle anonymously owned companies.
Robert Palmer | Speaker | TED.com