Global Witness
Robert Palmer: The Panama Papers exposed a huge global problem. What's next?
Robert Palmer: Os "papeis de Panamá" sacaron á luz un enorme problema global. E agora que?
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O 3 de abril de 2016 presenciamos a maior filtración de datos da historia. Os "papeis de Panamá" puxeron ao descuberto xente rica e poderosa que ocultara grandes cantidades de diñeiro en paraísos fiscais. Pero, que significa todo isto? Robert Palmer, de Global Witness, explícanolo.
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global Witness
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
[On April 3, 2016 we saw
the largest data leak in history.]
the largest data leak in history.]
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[O 3 de abril de 2016, vemos a maior
filtración de datos da historia.
filtración de datos da historia.
Os "papeis de Panamá" expoñen
a xente rica e poderosa
a xente rica e poderosa
00:18
[The Panama Papers exposed
rich and powerful people]
rich and powerful people]
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que ocultou grandes cantidades de diñeiro
en paraísos fiscais.
en paraísos fiscais.
00:20
[hiding vast amounts of money
in offshore accounts.]
in offshore accounts.]
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00:23
[What does this mean?]
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Que significa isto?
00:27
[We called Robert Palmer
of Global Witness to explain.]
of Global Witness to explain.]
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Robert Palmer, de Global Witness,
explícanolo].
explícanolo].
00:32
This week, there have been
a whole slew and deluge of stories
a whole slew and deluge of stories
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Esta semana houbo
unha avalancha de historias
unha avalancha de historias
00:37
coming out from the leak
of 11 million documents
of 11 million documents
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por mor da filtración
de 11 millóns de documentos
de 11 millóns de documentos
00:41
from a Panamanian-based law firm
called Mossack Fonseca.
called Mossack Fonseca.
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provenientes do bufete de avogados
Mossack Fonseca, con sede en Panamá.
Mossack Fonseca, con sede en Panamá.
A información sobre estes documentos
00:45
The release of these papers from Panama
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
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deixa ao descuberto unha pequena parte
00:51
of the secretive offshore world.
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do mundo secreto dos paraísos fiscais.
00:53
We get an insight into how clients
and banks and lawyers
and banks and lawyers
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Móstranos o xeito en que clientes,
bancos e avogados
bancos e avogados
00:58
go to companies like Mossack Fonseca
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acoden a compañías como Mossack Fonseca
01:01
and say, "OK, we want
an anonymous company,
an anonymous company,
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e din: "Queremos unha empresa anónima.
Poden conseguirnos unha?"
Poden conseguirnos unha?"
01:03
can you give us one?"
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Daquela pódense ver os correos,
01:04
So you actually get to see the emails,
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01:06
you get to see the exchanges of messages,
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o troco de mensaxes,
01:08
you get to see the mechanics
of how this works,
of how this works,
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como funciona este sistema,
01:11
how this operates.
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como se procede.
01:13
Now, this has already started
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
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Isto comezou a ter repercusións
bastante inmediatas.
bastante inmediatas.
01:17
The Prime Minister
of Iceland has resigned.
of Iceland has resigned.
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O primeiro ministro de Islandia
dimitiu.
dimitiu.
01:20
We've also had news
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Tamén coñecemos que un aliado
do brutal ditador sirio Bashar Al-Assad
do brutal ditador sirio Bashar Al-Assad
01:21
that an ally of the brutal
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
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ten empresas en paraísos fiscais.
01:26
has also got offshore companies.
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Houbo denuncias sobre unha pista
de 2 mil millóns de dólares
de 2 mil millóns de dólares
01:28
There's been allegations
of a $2 billion money trail
of a $2 billion money trail
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que sinala ao presidente ruso
Vladimir Putin,
Vladimir Putin,
01:34
that leads back to President
Vladimir Putin of Russia
Vladimir Putin of Russia
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por medio dun achegado, amigo da infancia,
01:38
via his close childhood friend,
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un violonchelista con éxito.
01:40
who happens to be a top cellist.
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E haberá centos de adiñeirados así,
01:42
And there will be a lot
of rich individuals out there
of rich individuals out there
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01:45
and others who will be nervous
about the next set of stories
about the next set of stories
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e outros tantos que estarán en tensión
polas próximas historias
01:49
and the next set of leaked documents.
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e os vindeiros documentos filtrados.
01:52
Now, this sounds like the plot
of a spy thriller
of a spy thriller
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Si, soa un pouco como a trama
dun filme de espías,
dun filme de espías,
01:56
or a John Grisham novel.
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ou como unha novela de John Grisham.
01:58
It seems very distant
from you, me, ordinary people.
from you, me, ordinary people.
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Parecerache algo moi afastado de ti,
de min, da xente corrente.
de min, da xente corrente.
02:02
Why should we care about this?
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Por que tería que inquietarnos?
02:04
But the truth is that if rich
and powerful individuals
and powerful individuals
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Porén, o certo é que se os podentes
02:09
are able to keep their money offshore
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gardan as súas fortunas
en paraísos fiscais
en paraísos fiscais
02:11
and not pay the taxes that they should,
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sen pagar os impostos que deberían,
02:14
it means that there is less money
for vital public services
for vital public services
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entón haberá menos cartos
para os servizos públicos fundamentais
para os servizos públicos fundamentais
02:18
like healthcare, education, roads.
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como a sanidade, a educación, as estradas.
02:21
And that affects all of us.
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E isto aféctanos a todos.
02:24
Now, for my organization Global Witness,
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Agora ben, para a miña organización,
Global Witness,
Global Witness,
02:26
this exposé has been phenomenal.
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a exposición pública destes datos
foi algo espectacular.
foi algo espectacular.
02:30
We have the world's media
and political leaders
and political leaders
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Temos a líderes políticos e a medios
de comunicación mundiales
de comunicación mundiales
02:35
talking about how individuals
can use offshore secrecy
can use offshore secrecy
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a falar sobre o uso que esa xente
fai dos paraísos fiscais
fai dos paraísos fiscais
02:40
to hide and disguise their assets --
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co fin de camuflar os seus bens,
02:42
something we have been talking about
and exposing for a decade.
and exposing for a decade.
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algo do que se leva divulgado moito
dende hai unha década.
dende hai unha década.
02:47
Now, I think a lot of people find
this entire world baffling and confusing,
this entire world baffling and confusing,
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Seguro que moitas persoas consideran isto
algo impreciso e desconcertante
algo impreciso e desconcertante
02:52
and hard to understand how
this sort of offshore world works.
this sort of offshore world works.
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e cóstalles comprender o funcionamento
deste tipo de paraísos fiscais.
deste tipo de paraísos fiscais.
A min gústame imaxinalo
como as "matrioskas", as bonecas rusas.
como as "matrioskas", as bonecas rusas.
02:56
I like to think of it a bit
like a Russian doll.
like a Russian doll.
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02:59
So you can have one company
stacked inside another company,
stacked inside another company,
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Podes ter unha empresa metida noutra,
que á súa vez está dentro doutra,
03:02
stacked inside another company,
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de xeito que é case imposible saber
03:05
making it almost impossible
to really understand
to really understand
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quen está realmente
detrás desas estruturas.
detrás desas estruturas.
03:09
who is behind these structures.
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03:11
It can be very difficult
for law enforcement
for law enforcement
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Pode ser moi difícil
para as forzas de seguridade
para as forzas de seguridade
03:14
or tax authorities,
journalists, civil society
journalists, civil society
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ou para as autoridades tributarias,
xornalistas e a sociedade civil,
xornalistas e a sociedade civil,
03:17
to really understand what's going on.
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comprenderen o que sucede en realidade.
03:20
I also think it's interesting
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Tamén vexo interesante que haxa
menos cobertura sobre o tema nos EE.UU.
menos cobertura sobre o tema nos EE.UU.
03:21
that there's been less coverage
of this issue in the United States.
of this issue in the United States.
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03:25
And that's perhaps because
some prominent US people
some prominent US people
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E talvez sexa porque non aparecen
neste escándalo
neste escándalo
persoas importantes de EE.UU.
03:28
just haven't figured
in this exposé, in this scandal.
in this exposé, in this scandal.
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03:33
Now, that's not because
there are no rich Americans
there are no rich Americans
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E non é porque non haxa alí adiñeirados
que agochen as súas pertenzas
03:37
who are stashing their assets offshore.
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en paraísos fiscais.
03:40
It's just because of the way
in which offshore works,
in which offshore works,
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É simplemente debido á forma
en que funcionan.
en que funcionan.
03:43
Mossack Fonseca has fewer
American clients.
American clients.
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Mossack Fonseca ten menos
clientes estadounidenses.
clientes estadounidenses.
Penso que se se filtrase información
das Illas Caimán,
das Illas Caimán,
03:47
I think if we saw leaks
from the Cayman Islands
from the Cayman Islands
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ou mesmo de Delaware, Wyoming ou Nevada,
03:50
or even from Delaware
or Wyoming or Nevada,
or Wyoming or Nevada,
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veríanse moitos máis casos e
un maior vencello con EE.UU.
un maior vencello con EE.UU.
03:54
you would see many more cases
and examples linking back to Americans.
and examples linking back to Americans.
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04:00
In fact, in a number of US states
you need less information,
you need less information,
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De feito, nalgúns estados
precísase menos información
04:06
you need to provide less
information to get a company
information to get a company
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para crear unha empresa
04:10
than you do to get a library card.
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que para obter un carné de biblioteca.
Tanta discreción en EE.UU.
04:13
That sort of secrecy in America
has allowed employees of school districts
has allowed employees of school districts
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permitiulles aos empregados de distritos
escolares estafar ao alumnado.
escolares estafar ao alumnado.
04:19
to rip off schoolchildren.
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04:20
It has allowed scammers
to rip off vulnerable investors.
to rip off vulnerable investors.
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Permitíulles a estafadores timar
a inversores vulnerables.
a inversores vulnerables.
Este é o tipo de comportamento
que nos afecta a todos.
que nos afecta a todos.
04:26
This is the sort of behavior
that affects all of us.
that affects all of us.
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04:30
Now, at Global Witness,
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Por iso en Global Witness queriamos
ver o que sucedería na práctica.
ver o que sucedería na práctica.
04:32
we wanted to see what this
actually looked like in practice.
actually looked like in practice.
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Como funciona en realidade?
04:35
How does this actually work?
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Así que, o que fixemos foi enviar
a un investigador infiltrado
a un investigador infiltrado
04:37
So what we did
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04:38
is we sent in an undercover investigator
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
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a trece bufetes de avogados de Manhattan.
04:45
Our investigator posed
as an African minister
as an African minister
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O noso investigador fíxose pasar
por un ministro africano
por un ministro africano
que quería mover fondos sospeitosos
nos EE.UU.
nos EE.UU.
04:49
who wanted to move suspect funds
into the United States
into the United States
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para mercar unha casa, un iate, un jet.
04:53
to buy a house, a yacht, a jet.
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04:57
Now, what was truly shocking
was that all but one of those lawyers
was that all but one of those lawyers
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O que realmente nos abraiou
foi que todos eles,
foi que todos eles,
todos os avogados excepto un,
lle achegaran suxestións
ao noso investigador
ao noso investigador
05:02
provided our investigator with suggestions
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sobre como mover eses fondos sospeitosos.
05:06
on how to move those suspect funds.
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Todo foron reunións preliminares,
05:08
These were all preliminary meetings,
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e ningún avogado nos tratou como clientes,
05:10
and none of the lawyers
took us on as a client
took us on as a client
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05:13
and of course no money moved hands,
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nin moito menos houbo cartos de por medio,
pero fainos ver o problema do sistema.
05:15
but it really shows the problem
with the system.
with the system.
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05:18
It's also important
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Tamén é importante ter en conta que
non son casos individuais.
non son casos individuais.
05:20
to not just think about this
as individual cases.
as individual cases.
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Non se trata só dun avogado individual
05:24
This is not just about
an individual lawyer
an individual lawyer
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05:26
who's spoken to our undercover
investigator and provided suggestions.
investigator and provided suggestions.
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que falou co noso infiltrado
para darlle solucións.
para darlle solucións.
05:30
It's not just about
a particular senior politician
a particular senior politician
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Non ten que ver soamente
cun político en particular
cun político en particular
cachado nun escándalo.
05:33
who's been caught up in a scandal.
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Trátase dun sistema que funciona así,
05:34
This is about how a system works,
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cheo de corrupción, evasión de impostos,
pobreza e inestabilidade.
pobreza e inestabilidade.
05:37
that entrenches corruption,
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
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05:43
And in order to tackle this,
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E para erradicar isto,
precisamos mudar o xogo.
05:45
we need to change the game.
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05:47
We need to change the rules of the game
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Precisamos mudar as regras do xogo,
para dificultar esas condutas.
05:50
to make this sort of behavior harder.
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05:52
This may seem like doom and gloom,
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Pode que todo se vexa moi negro,
como se non puidésemos facer nada,
05:54
like there's nothing we can do about it,
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05:56
like nothing has ever changed,
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como se nada tivese cambiado,
05:58
like there will always be rich
and powerful individuals.
and powerful individuals.
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como se sempre fora haber individuos
ricos e podentes.
ricos e podentes.
06:01
But as a natural optimist,
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Pero como optimista que son,
penso que estamos ante
o comezo dun cambio.
o comezo dun cambio.
06:04
I do see that we are starting
to get some change.
to get some change.
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Nestes últimos anos,
06:07
Over the last couple of years,
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vimos un verdadeiro esforzo
por acadar unha maior transparencia
por acadar unha maior transparencia
06:09
we've seen a real push towards
greater transparency
greater transparency
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no que concirne á propiedade das empresas.
06:13
when it comes to company ownership.
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Este asunto colocouno na axenda política
06:15
This issue was put on the political agenda
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o primeiro ministro do Reino Unido,
David Cameron,
David Cameron,
06:18
by the UK Prime Minister David Cameron
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no gran Cumio do G8, en 2013,
en Irlanda do Norte.
en Irlanda do Norte.
06:20
at a big G8 Summit that was held
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
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06:25
And since then, the European Union
is going to be creating
is going to be creating
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Dende aquela, a Unión Europea
comezou a crear rexistros centrais
a nivel nacional,
a nivel nacional,
06:30
central registers at a national level
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para saber quen posúe e controla
as empresas de toda Europa.
as empresas de toda Europa.
06:32
of who really owns and controls
companies across Europe.
companies across Europe.
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06:35
One of the things that is sad is that,
actually, the US is lagging behind.
actually, the US is lagging behind.
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O máis triste é que EE.UU
estase a quedar distanciado.
estase a quedar distanciado.
Introduciuse unha lexislación bipartidista
06:40
There's bipartisan legislation
that had been introduced
that had been introduced
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na Cámara de Representantes e no Senado,
06:43
in the House and the Senate,
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que non está a progresar
tanto como nos gustaría.
tanto como nos gustaría.
06:45
but it isn't making as much progress
as we'd like to see.
as we'd like to see.
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O que en realidade nos gustaría ver
sería que estes documentos filtrados,
sería que estes documentos filtrados,
06:48
So we'd really want to see
the Panama leaks,
the Panama leaks,
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06:51
this huge peek into the offshore world,
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esa enorme porta ao mundo
dos paraísos fiscais,
dos paraísos fiscais,
06:55
be used as a way of opening up
in the US and around the world.
in the US and around the world.
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se utilizasen para desenmascarar
todo isto en EE.UU e no resto do mundo.
todo isto en EE.UU e no resto do mundo.
Para nós en Global Witness,
este é un momento de mudanza.
este é un momento de mudanza.
07:00
For us at Global Witness,
this is a moment for change.
this is a moment for change.
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Precisamos que a xente normal se enfade
07:05
We need ordinary people to get angry
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ao ver como os podentes
07:09
at the way in which people
can hide their identity
can hide their identity
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agochan a súa identidade
tras empresas secretas.
07:12
behind secret companies.
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Necesitamos que os dirixentes empresariais
07:14
We need business leaders
to stand up and say,
to stand up and say,
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se ergan e digan: "Estes segredos non
son bos para os negocios".
son bos para os negocios".
07:18
"Secrecy like this is not
good for business."
good for business."
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Necesitamos que os líderes políticos
recoñezan este problema,
recoñezan este problema,
07:21
We need political leaders
to recognize the problem,
to recognize the problem,
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e se comprometan a cambiar a lei
para destapar este tipo de actuacións.
para destapar este tipo de actuacións.
07:26
and to commit to changing the law
to open up this sort of secrecy.
to open up this sort of secrecy.
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Xuntos, podemos rematar
con esta opacidade
con esta opacidade
07:31
Together, we can end the secrecy
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07:34
that is currently allowing tax evasion,
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que consente a evasión fiscal,
e que fortalece a corrupción
e o branqueo de capitais.
e o branqueo de capitais.
07:38
corruption, money laundering to flourish.
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global WitnessRobert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes.
Why you should listen
Robert Palmer is the Banks and Corruption Campaign Leader for Global Witness, whose founder Charmian Gooch won the TED Prize in 2014. The Nobel-prize nominated organization is dedicated to breaking the links between natural resources, conflict and corruption.
Palmer has led a number of high profile investigations. These include exposing how corrupt Nigerian politicians used British high street banks to move bribe money; uncovering which global banks held $65 billion of Libyan government funds; and organizing an undercover sting to show how corrupt officials can move suspect funds into the U.S. with the help of New York lawyers.
Palmer is an expert in the global anti-money laundering framework and helps to develop practical policy solutions to improve its effectiveness. He helps to lead a global coalition of civil society groups campaigning for an end to the abuse of the financial system by corrupt officials. This has led to new transparency laws in the UK and EU to tackle anonymously owned companies.
Robert Palmer | Speaker | TED.com