TEDxGroningen
Alison Killing: What happens when a city runs out of room for its dead
アリソン・キリング: 街に死者を葬る場所が足りなくなったらどうなるか
Filmed:
Readability: 3.8
1,532,318 views
イギリスでは「自分で墓地を運営しようと思えば、できなくはない」と、アリソン・キリングは言います。彼女は、我々が死んでから埋められる場所について掘り下げて考えています。このトークでは、建築家でTEDフェローである彼女が我々の市や町の中で見過ごされた場所である「墓地」について驚くような経済的、社会的な視点を提示します。そしてイギリスの法律を例に挙げながら、我々が埋葬される場所に関わる興味深く、時におかしく、矛盾しがちな法律について解説します。
Alison Killing - Architect
An architect and urban designer, Alison Killing uses journalism, filmmaking and exhibitions to help people better understand the built environment. Full bio
An architect and urban designer, Alison Killing uses journalism, filmmaking and exhibitions to help people better understand the built environment. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So, I have an overlooked
but potentially lucrative
but potentially lucrative
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見過ごされがちですが
儲かりそうな
儲かりそうな
00:17
investment opportunity for you.
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投資の機会をご紹介しましょう
00:20
Over the past 10 years in the UK,
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イギリスでは過去10年に渡って
00:22
the return on burial plots
has outperformed the UK property market
has outperformed the UK property market
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不動産市場における墓地の運用益が
およそ３対１の割合で
およそ３対１の割合で
00:26
by a ratio of around three to one.
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平均を上回っています
00:29
There are private cemeteries being set up
with plots for sale to investors,
with plots for sale to investors,
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私営墓地ができつつあり
投資家向けの区画が
投資家向けの区画が
00:33
and they start at around 3,900 pounds.
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およそ70万円から
販売されていて
販売されていて
00:36
And they're projected to achieve
about 40 percent growth.
about 40 percent growth.
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約40%の成長が見込まれています
00:40
The biggest advantage is that this
is a market with continuous demand.
is a market with continuous demand.
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最大の利点は この市場には
常に需要があるということです
常に需要があるということです
00:47
Now, this is a real proposition,
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さて この事業提案は本物ですし
00:50
and there are companies out there
that really are offering this investment,
that really are offering this investment,
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このような投資を実際に提供する企業も
世の中にありますが
世の中にありますが
00:54
but my interest in it is quite different.
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私は 別のところに関心があります
00:57
I'm an architect and urban designer,
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私は建築家で 都市計画家です
00:59
and for the past year and a half,
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この１年半
01:01
I've been looking at approaches
to death and dying
to death and dying
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死そのもの
死を迎えることの捉え方 そして
死を迎えることの捉え方 そして
01:04
and at how they've shaped our cities
and the buildings within them.
and the buildings within them.
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死が どのように私たちの街や建築物を
形作るのかを調べてきました
形作るのかを調べてきました
01:08
So in the summer,
I did my first exhibition
I did my first exhibition
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そこで 2014年の夏に
死と建築を扱った展覧会を
死と建築を扱った展覧会を
01:11
on death and architecture in Venice,
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初めて ベニスで開きました
01:14
and it was called "Death in Venice."
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タイトルは『ベニスに死す』
01:16
And because death is a subject
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死というテーマは
01:18
that many of us find quite
uncomfortable to talk about,
uncomfortable to talk about,
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話しづらいという人も多いので
01:21
the exhibition was designed
to be quite playful,
to be quite playful,
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展覧会に遊びの要素を取り入れて
01:24
so that people would
literally engage with it.
literally engage with it.
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誰でも参加しやすいようにしました
01:26
So one of our exhibits
was an interactive map of London
was an interactive map of London
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作品の１つが
ロンドンのインタラクティブ・マップで
ロンドンのインタラクティブ・マップで
01:30
which showed just how much
of the real estate in the city
of the real estate in the city
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この街の不動産のうち どの程度が
01:33
is given over to death.
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死にまつわるものかを示しました
01:35
As you wave your hand across the map,
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マップ上で手を振ると
01:37
the name of the piece of real estate --
the building or the cemetery --
the building or the cemetery --
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建物や墓地といった不動産の名前が
01:41
is revealed.
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現れます
01:42
And those white shapes that you can see,
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白い部分は全部
01:45
they're all of the hospitals and hospices
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ロンドン市内の病院やホスピス
01:48
and mortuaries and cemeteries in the city.
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葬儀場や墓地です
01:51
In fact, the majority are cemeteries.
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ただ実際は 大部分が墓地です
01:53
We wanted to show that, even though
death and burial are things
death and burial are things
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私たちが明らかにしたかったのは
葬儀や死は
葬儀や死は
01:58
that we might not think about,
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普段は頭になくても
01:59
they're all around us, and they're
important parts of our cities.
important parts of our cities.
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私たちを取り巻く
重要な 街の一部だということです
重要な 街の一部だということです
02:04
So about half a million people
die in the UK each year,
die in the UK each year,
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イギリスでは毎年
約50万人が亡くなりますが
約50万人が亡くなりますが
02:08
and of those, around a quarter
will want to be buried.
will want to be buried.
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そのうち４分の１ほどが
埋葬を希望します
埋葬を希望します
02:11
But the UK, like many
Western European countries,
Western European countries,
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ところがイギリスは
他の西欧諸国と同様
他の西欧諸国と同様
02:15
is running out of burial space,
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特に大都市で
02:17
especially in the major cities.
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埋葬場所が不足しています
02:19
And the Greater London Authority
has been aware of this for a while,
has been aware of this for a while,
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大ロンドン庁は 以前から
この事態を把握しています
この事態を把握しています
02:23
and the main causes are population growth,
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主な原因は人口増加で
今ある墓地は
今ある墓地は
02:26
the fact that existing
cemeteries are almost full.
cemeteries are almost full.
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ほぼ満杯という事実があります
02:29
There's a custom in the UK that graves
are considered to be occupied forever,
are considered to be occupied forever,
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イギリスでは慣例として
墓は永久に所有されるものとされますが
墓は永久に所有されるものとされますが
02:33
and there's also development pressure --
people want to use that same land
people want to use that same land
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開発による圧力もあります
02:37
to build houses or offices or shops.
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その土地を住宅や事務所や
商業地に利用したい人もいるのです
商業地に利用したい人もいるのです
02:41
So they came up with a few solutions.
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そこで解決策が提案されました
02:43
They were like, well, maybe we can
reuse those graves after 50 years.
reuse those graves after 50 years.
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50年経過したら墓地を
再利用できないかとか
再利用できないかとか
02:47
Or maybe we can bury people,
like, four deep,
like, four deep,
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遺体を４倍深く埋葬し
02:50
so that four people can be buried
in the same plot,
in the same plot,
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同じ区画に４人 埋葬すれば
02:53
and we can make more efficient use
of the land that way,
of the land that way,
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土地をもっと有効活用でき
02:55
and in that way, hopefully London
will still have space to bury people
will still have space to bury people
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しばらくは埋葬場所を
確保できるのではという
確保できるのではという
02:59
in the near future.
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期待があるのです
03:01
But, traditionally, cemeteries
haven't been taken care of
haven't been taken care of
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一方 地元当局は伝統的に
墓地の管理を
墓地の管理を
03:03
by the local authority.
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してきませんでした
03:05
In fact, the surprising thing is that
there's no legal obligation
there's no legal obligation
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意外にもイギリスでは
埋葬場所を確保する
埋葬場所を確保する
03:08
on anyone in the UK
to provide burial space.
to provide burial space.
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法的義務を負う者はいないのです
03:12
Traditionally, it's been done
by private and religious organizations,
by private and religious organizations,
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伝統的に 埋葬場所の確保は
教会、モスク、シナゴーグといった
教会、モスク、シナゴーグといった
03:17
like churches and mosques and synagogues.
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私的な宗教団体の手で行われてきました
03:20
But there's also occasionally
been a for-profit group
been a for-profit group
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ただ時折 一口乗ろうとする
03:24
who has wanted to get in on the act.
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営利団体もあります
03:26
And, you know, they look at
the small size of a burial plot
the small size of a burial plot
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墓地の区画は小さい上に
価格が高いという点に
価格が高いという点に
03:30
and that high cost,
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目を向ければ
03:31
and it looks like there's
serious money to be made.
serious money to be made.
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大きな利益を上げられそうです
03:34
So, actually, if you want to go out
and start your own cemetery,
and start your own cemetery,
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実は自分で墓地を運営しようと思えば
03:38
you kind of can.
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できなくは ありません
03:39
There was this couple in South Wales,
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サウス・ウェールズに住む
03:41
and they had a farmhouse
and a load of fields next to it,
and a load of fields next to it,
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この夫婦は農家で
自宅の隣に広がる土地を
自宅の隣に広がる土地を
03:45
and they wanted to develop the land.
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活用しようと考えました
03:47
They had a load of ideas.
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アイデアは 色々ありました
03:48
They first thought about making
a caravan park,
a caravan park,
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最初はトレーラーパークに
しようとしましたが
しようとしましたが
03:51
but the council said no.
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認可が下りませんでした
03:53
And then they wanted to make a fish farm
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次に養魚場はどうかと考えましたが
03:55
and again the council said no.
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それも認可が下りません
03:57
Then they hit on the idea
of making a cemetery
of making a cemetery
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そこで思いついたのが
墓地を作ることでした
墓地を作ることでした
04:00
and they calculated that by doing this,
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そうすれば 計算上
04:02
they could increase
the value of their land
the value of their land
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元々1,700万円ほどだった地価が
04:05
from about 95,000 pounds
to over one million pounds.
to over one million pounds.
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１億８千万円以上になることが
わかりました
わかりました
04:10
But just to come back to this idea
of making profit from cemeteries,
of making profit from cemeteries,
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ただ墓地で お金が儲かるなんて
04:15
like, it's kind of ludicrous, right?
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少しおかしいと感じませんか？
04:18
The thing is that the high cost
of those burial plots
of those burial plots
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実は 墓地が一見 高額なのは
04:21
is actually very misleading.
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誤解なのです
04:23
They look like they're expensive,
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高額なように見えますが
04:25
but that cost reflects the fact that
you need to maintain the burial plot --
you need to maintain the burial plot --
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実際は 墓地の維持費が
価格に反映されているのです
価格に反映されているのです
04:29
like, someone has to cut the grass
for the next 50 years.
for the next 50 years.
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例えば 50年先まで
草刈りを続けなければなりません
草刈りを続けなければなりません
04:33
That means it's very difficult
to make money from cemeteries.
to make money from cemeteries.
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つまり 墓地で収益を上げるのは
とても難しいのです
とても難しいのです
04:36
And it's the reason that normally
they're run by the council
they're run by the council
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だから墓地は主に
地方自治体や非営利団体が
地方自治体や非営利団体が
04:39
or by a not-for-profit group.
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運営しているのです
04:41
But anyway, the council granted
these people permission,
these people permission,
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それでも自治体の認可が下りれば
04:43
and they're now trying
to build their cemetery.
to build their cemetery.
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私営の墓地を作れます
04:46
So just to explain to you
kind of how this works:
kind of how this works:
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どういう仕組みか説明しましょう
04:49
If I want to build something in the UK,
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国内で何か建てようとする場合
04:51
like a cemetery for example,
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例えば墓地を作る場合などですが
04:53
then I have to apply
for planning permission first.
for planning permission first.
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まず建築許可を申請する必要があります
04:56
So if I want to build a new
office building for a client
office building for a client
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だから私がオフィスビルの
建築を請け負う場合や
建築を請け負う場合や
05:01
or if I want to extend my home
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自分の家を増築する場合 —
05:03
or, you know, if I have a shop
and I want to convert it into an office,
and I want to convert it into an office,
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店舗を事務所に改築する場合などには
認可してもらうために
認可してもらうために
05:07
I have to do a load of drawings,
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大量の設計図を描いて
05:08
and I submit them
to the council for permission.
to the council for permission.
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自治体に提出しなければなりません
05:11
And they'll look at things like
how it fits in the surroundings.
how it fits in the surroundings.
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自治体では 建造物が周辺環境に合うか
といったことを確認し
といったことを確認し
05:15
So they'll look at what it looks like.
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その外観について検討します
05:17
But they'll also think about things
like what impact is it going to have
like what impact is it going to have
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さらに自治体は その建造物が
地元の環境に
地元の環境に
05:20
on the local environment?
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及ぼす影響も検討します
05:22
And they'll be thinking about things like,
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それから 検討するのは
05:24
is this thing going to cause pollution
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その建造物が公害の原因になるかとか
05:26
or is there going to be a lot of traffic
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私が何かを建てることによって
05:28
that wants to go to this thing
that I've built?
that I've built?
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交通量は多くなるかといったことです
05:30
But also good things.
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さらに利点も検討します
05:32
Is it going to add local services
like shops to the neighborhood
like shops to the neighborhood
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その建造物は 住民が使用したいと思う
店舗などのサービスを
店舗などのサービスを
05:35
that local people would like to use?
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地元に提供できるかといったことです
05:38
And they'll weigh up the advantages
and the disadvantages
and the disadvantages
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このように長所と短所を
てんびんにかけて
てんびんにかけて
05:40
and they'll make a decision.
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決定を下します
05:42
So that's how it works if I want
to build a large cemetery.
to build a large cemetery.
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大規模な墓地を作る場合でも同じです
05:47
But what if I've got a piece of land
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では もし私がわずかな土地を持っていて
05:49
and I just want to bury
a few people, like five or six?
a few people, like five or six?
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ほんの５～６人埋葬したいだけなら
どうしたらいいでしょう？
どうしたらいいでしょう？
05:53
Well, then -- actually, I don't need
permission from anyone!
permission from anyone!
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そんな時 実は 許可は必要ありません
05:57
There's actually almost no regulation
in the UK around burial,
in the UK around burial,
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イギリスには埋葬に関する規制が
ほとんどないのです
ほとんどないのです
06:02
and the little bit that there is,
is about not polluting water courses,
is about not polluting water courses,
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唯一 存在する規制は
水路汚染 すなわち河川や地下水の
水路汚染 すなわち河川や地下水の
06:05
like not polluting rivers or groundwater.
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汚染の禁止に関わるものだけです
06:08
So actually, if you want to go
and make your own mini-cemetery,
and make your own mini-cemetery,
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だから 自分の小さな墓地を
作ろうと思えば
作ろうと思えば
06:12
then you can.
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できます
06:13
But I mean, like -- really,
who does this? Right?
who does this? Right?
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ただ 実際に作ろうとする人は
いるでしょうか？ やります？
いるでしょうか？ やります？
06:18
Well, if you're an aristocratic family
and you have a large estate,
and you have a large estate,
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もし 皆さんが貴族で
広大な敷地を所有しているなら
広大な敷地を所有しているなら
06:21
then there's a chance that you'll
have a mausoleum on it,
have a mausoleum on it,
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霊廟を建てて 一族を埋葬することも
06:24
and you'll bury your family there.
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あるでしょう
06:26
But the really weird thing
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ところが 奇妙なことに
06:28
is that you don't need to have
a piece of land of a certain size
a piece of land of a certain size
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埋葬の許可を受ける上で
一定の面積の土地を
一定の面積の土地を
06:32
before you're allowed
to start burying people on it.
to start burying people on it.
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所有している必要はありません
06:34
And so that means that, technically,
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つまり 理論上は
06:36
this applies to, like, the back garden
of your house in the suburbs.
of your house in the suburbs.
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郊外の自宅の裏庭に
作ってもいいのです
作ってもいいのです
06:40
(Laughter)
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（笑）
06:42
So what if you wanted
to try this yourself at home?
to try this yourself at home?
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本気で作ろうとすると
どうなるでしょう？
どうなるでしょう？
06:46
Well, there's a few councils
that have guidance on their website
that have guidance on their website
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自治体によっては ウェブサイトに
ガイドを掲載していていますから
ガイドを掲載していていますから
06:50
which can help you.
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参考になるでしょう
06:51
So, the first thing that they tell you
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最初に載っているのは
06:54
is that you need to have a certificate
of burial before you can go ahead --
of burial before you can go ahead --
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実際に埋葬する前に
埋葬許可証が必要ということです
埋葬許可証が必要ということです
06:57
you're not allowed to just murder people
and put them under the patio.
and put them under the patio.
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勝手に人を殺して
テラスの下に埋めてはいけません
テラスの下に埋めてはいけません
07:01
(Laughter)
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（笑）
07:04
They also tell you that you need to keep
a record of where the grave is.
a record of where the grave is.
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それから 墓の位置を
記録に残す必要があります
記録に残す必要があります
07:08
But that's pretty much it
for formal requirements.
for formal requirements.
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でも 形式上の要件は これだけです
07:10
Now, they do warn you that
your neighbors might not like this,
your neighbors might not like this,
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近所から苦情が来る可能性は
指摘されていますが
指摘されていますが
07:13
but, legally speaking, there's almost
nothing that they can do about it.
nothing that they can do about it.
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だからといって法律上
隣人にできることは ほとんどありません
隣人にできることは ほとんどありません
07:17
And just in case any of you
still had that profit idea in your mind
still had that profit idea in your mind
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また仮に 埋葬地がいくらで
どのくらい収益を上げられるかといった
どのくらい収益を上げられるかといった
07:22
about how much those burial plots cost
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利益を上げようという
07:25
and how much money
you might be able to make,
you might be able to make,
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期待を持っている人のために
07:27
they also warn that it might cause
the value of your house
the value of your house
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不動産の価値が20%下落する可能性も
07:30
to drop by 20 percent.
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指摘しています
07:32
Although, actually, it's more likely
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ただ 実際には
07:34
that no one will want to buy
your house at all after that.
your house at all after that.
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墓地を作ると 家を買う人は
いなくなるでしょう
いなくなるでしょう
07:38
So what I find fascinating about this
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私が こういうことに関心があるのは
07:40
is the fact that it kind of sums up
many of our attitudes towards death.
many of our attitudes towards death.
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私たちの死に対する態度を
端的に表しているからです
端的に表しているからです
07:46
In the UK, and I think that the figures
across Europe are probably similar,
across Europe are probably similar,
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おそらくヨーロッパならどこでも
似ているでしょうが イギリスでは
似ているでしょうが イギリスでは
07:50
only about 30 percent of people
have ever talked to anyone
have ever talked to anyone
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自分が死ぬ時 どうしたいか
人に伝えた経験がある人は
人に伝えた経験がある人は
07:53
about their wishes around death,
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ほんの３割程度です
07:55
and even for people over 75,
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75歳以上の人の場合ですら
07:57
only 45 percent of people
have ever talked about this.
have ever talked about this.
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わずか45%しかいません
08:01
And the reasons that
people give ... you know,
people give ... you know,
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誰もがあげる理由は
08:04
they think that their death is far off
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自分の死はまだ先だし
08:06
or they think that they're going
to make people uncomfortable
to make people uncomfortable
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それを口にすると
周りの人が気まずくなるような
周りの人が気まずくなるような
08:08
by talking about it.
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気がするという点です
08:10
And you know, to a certain extent,
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ただ 私たちに代わって
08:12
there are other people out there
who are taking care of things for us.
who are taking care of things for us.
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ある程度
それを引き受けてくれる人々がいます
それを引き受けてくれる人々がいます
08:15
The government has all this regulation
and bureaucracy around things
and bureaucracy around things
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政府は 死者を葬ることなどに関する
08:19
like burying a death, for example,
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様々な規制や組織を持っています
08:21
and there's people like funeral directors
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また 職業人として 死の問題に
08:23
who devote their entire
working lives to this issue.
working lives to this issue.
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すべてを捧げる葬儀社の人々がいます
08:26
But when it comes to our cities
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でも 私たちの都市には
08:27
and thinking about how
death fits in our cities,
death fits in our cities,
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街に死が どう調和するかを
考える場合
考える場合
08:30
there's much less regulation
and design and thought
and design and thought
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想像以上に 規制やデザインや思想が
08:35
than we might imagine.
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欠如しています
08:36
So we're not thinking about this,
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私たちは このことを考えていませんし
08:38
but all of the people we imagine
are thinking about it --
are thinking about it --
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考えてくれていると思っていた人々も
08:41
they're not taking care of it either.
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実は責任をもっていないのです
08:43
Thank you.
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ありがとう
08:44
(Applause)
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（拍手）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Alison Killing - ArchitectAn architect and urban designer, Alison Killing uses journalism, filmmaking and exhibitions to help people better understand the built environment.
Why you should listen
Alison Killing is an architect and urban designer working to engage people with their built environment, via design of buildings and urban strategies, film making, exhibitions and events. She explores the relationship between death and modern architecture, looking at how cities are rebuilt after disaster.
Recent projects include Death in the City (and its first iteration, Death in Venice, which was shown as an independent event during the opening week of the Venice Architecture Biennale), a touring exhibition about death and modern architecture; work with the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies on better rebuilding after disaster and how to integrate relevant urban design tools into humanitarian response; and a study of financial models for arts and community projects temporarily using vacant buildings to help these projects become self-sustaining.
Alison Killing | Speaker | TED.com