TEDxGroningen
Alison Killing: What happens when a city runs out of room for its dead
艾莉森 基林: 当一座城市耗尽墓地时会怎样
Filmed:
Readability: 3.8
1,532,318 views
在英国，“如果你想开始建造自己的墓园”艾莉森 基林说，“那么你就能”她想了许多关于我们死在何地以及葬在何处——在这个演讲中，这位建筑设计师和TED讲师为我们提供了关于一个在我们的城市里被忽略的方面：墓地的大开眼界的经济和社会观点。通过对英国法律的特别讲解，她为我们找出了有趣的、甚至搞笑的，并且经常矛盾的关于你可以被葬在何处的法律。
Alison Killing - Architect
An architect and urban designer, Alison Killing uses journalism, filmmaking and exhibitions to help people better understand the built environment. Full bio
An architect and urban designer, Alison Killing uses journalism, filmmaking and exhibitions to help people better understand the built environment. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So, I have an overlooked
but potentially lucrative
but potentially lucrative
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我有一个被人们忽视的，
但又有可能赚大钱
但又有可能赚大钱
00:17
investment opportunity for you.
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的投资机会给你们
00:20
Over the past 10 years in the UK,
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过去10年，在英国
00:22
the return on burial plots
has outperformed the UK property market
has outperformed the UK property market
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墓地的回报已经胜过房地产
00:26
by a ratio of around three to one.
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两者的比例大致为3:1
00:29
There are private cemeteries being set up
with plots for sale to investors,
with plots for sale to investors,
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大量的私人墓园被开发
销售给投资者
销售给投资者
00:33
and they start at around 3,900 pounds.
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一块墓地的起始价格大概为3900英磅
00:36
And they're projected to achieve
about 40 percent growth.
about 40 percent growth.
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并且他们预计会有40%的增长
00:40
The biggest advantage is that this
is a market with continuous demand.
is a market with continuous demand.
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这个项目最大的优势是
这是一个有着持久需求的市场
这是一个有着持久需求的市场
00:47
Now, this is a real proposition,
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现在，这是一桩真正的生意
00:50
and there are companies out there
that really are offering this investment,
that really are offering this investment,
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已经有公司真正的提供这种投资了
00:54
but my interest in it is quite different.
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但这不是我的兴趣所在
00:57
I'm an architect and urban designer,
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我是一个建筑设计师和城市设计师
00:59
and for the past year and a half,
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在过去的一年半里
01:01
I've been looking at approaches
to death and dying
to death and dying
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我一直在研究通向死亡和临终的途径
01:04
and at how they've shaped our cities
and the buildings within them.
and the buildings within them.
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它们是如何塑造我们的城市
以及那些身在其中的建筑
以及那些身在其中的建筑
01:08
So in the summer,
I did my first exhibition
I did my first exhibition
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所以，今夏我在威尼斯办了我的第一场
01:11
on death and architecture in Venice,
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关于死亡与建筑的展览
01:14
and it was called "Death in Venice."
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展览的名称为《威尼斯之死》
01:16
And because death is a subject
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因为死亡是一个许多人
01:18
that many of us find quite
uncomfortable to talk about,
uncomfortable to talk about,
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都不愿谈及的话题
01:21
the exhibition was designed
to be quite playful,
to be quite playful,
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所以这个展览设计的很轻松活泼
01:24
so that people would
literally engage with it.
literally engage with it.
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让大家愿意参与
01:26
So one of our exhibits
was an interactive map of London
was an interactive map of London
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我们其中的一件展品是一个伦敦的互动地图
01:30
which showed just how much
of the real estate in the city
of the real estate in the city
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它向我们展示了有多少这个城市的地产
01:33
is given over to death.
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是属于死亡产业的
01:35
As you wave your hand across the map,
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当你在这张地图上挥手的时候
01:37
the name of the piece of real estate --
the building or the cemetery --
the building or the cemetery --
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这些地产的名字——建筑物或者墓地——
01:41
is revealed.
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就会显示出来
01:42
And those white shapes that you can see,
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你们看到的这些白色的
01:45
they're all of the hospitals and hospices
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都是医院和临终关怀院
01:48
and mortuaries and cemeteries in the city.
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以及太平间和墓地
01:51
In fact, the majority are cemeteries.
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事实上，主要的还是墓地
01:53
We wanted to show that, even though
death and burial are things
death and burial are things
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我们想要展现的是，
虽然死亡和埋葬
虽然死亡和埋葬
01:58
that we might not think about,
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可能是我们不会去想的事情
01:59
they're all around us, and they're
important parts of our cities.
important parts of our cities.
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但它们就在我们周围，
并且是我们城市的重要部分
并且是我们城市的重要部分
02:04
So about half a million people
die in the UK each year,
die in the UK each year,
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在英国，每年大概有50万人死亡
02:08
and of those, around a quarter
will want to be buried.
will want to be buried.
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这些人中，
大概有四分之一的想要入土为安
大概有四分之一的想要入土为安
02:11
But the UK, like many
Western European countries,
Western European countries,
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但是英国，就像其它的欧洲国家一样
02:15
is running out of burial space,
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正在耗尽它的安葬空间
02:17
especially in the major cities.
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特别是在那些主要城市
02:19
And the Greater London Authority
has been aware of this for a while,
has been aware of this for a while,
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而大伦敦市政府早就意识到这一点了
02:23
and the main causes are population growth,
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导致这一问题的主要原因是人口增长
02:26
the fact that existing
cemeteries are almost full.
cemeteries are almost full.
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事实上现存的墓地几乎已经全满了
02:29
There's a custom in the UK that graves
are considered to be occupied forever,
are considered to be occupied forever,
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英国的风俗是坟墓是永久占有的
02:33
and there's also development pressure --
people want to use that same land
people want to use that same land
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并且还有发展的压力——
人们想要利用同样的土地
人们想要利用同样的土地
02:37
to build houses or offices or shops.
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去建造住宅、写字楼或商店
02:41
So they came up with a few solutions.
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因此他们想出了一些解决办法
02:43
They were like, well, maybe we can
reuse those graves after 50 years.
reuse those graves after 50 years.
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比如说，也许我们可以在50年后
重新利用这些墓地
重新利用这些墓地
02:47
Or maybe we can bury people,
like, four deep,
like, four deep,
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或者我们可以埋四层深
02:50
so that four people can be buried
in the same plot,
in the same plot,
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这样四个人可以同时埋在一块墓地
02:53
and we can make more efficient use
of the land that way,
of the land that way,
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并且这样我们可以更高效地使用土地
02:55
and in that way, hopefully London
will still have space to bury people
will still have space to bury people
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如果用这种方法，
那么伦敦有希望在未来短期内
那么伦敦有希望在未来短期内
02:59
in the near future.
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仍然拥有足够的墓地
03:01
But, traditionally, cemeteries
haven't been taken care of
haven't been taken care of
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但是，传统上，墓地从来没有
03:03
by the local authority.
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被地方政府重视过
03:05
In fact, the surprising thing is that
there's no legal obligation
there's no legal obligation
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事实上，令人意想不到的是，在英国
03:08
on anyone in the UK
to provide burial space.
to provide burial space.
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没有任何人有提供安葬空间的法律义务
03:12
Traditionally, it's been done
by private and religious organizations,
by private and religious organizations,
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传统上，都是私人和宗教组织在做这些
03:17
like churches and mosques and synagogues.
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比如教堂、清真寺以及犹太会堂
03:20
But there's also occasionally
been a for-profit group
been a for-profit group
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但偶尔也会有一两家盈利组织
03:24
who has wanted to get in on the act.
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想要插上一手
03:26
And, you know, they look at
the small size of a burial plot
the small size of a burial plot
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他们看着墓地的尺寸之小
03:30
and that high cost,
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以及价格之高
03:31
and it looks like there's
serious money to be made.
serious money to be made.
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看起来似乎真的大有钱景
03:34
So, actually, if you want to go out
and start your own cemetery,
and start your own cemetery,
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事实上，如果你想开始拥有自己的坟场
03:38
you kind of can.
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也是可以的
03:39
There was this couple in South Wales,
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有这么一对南威尔士的夫妻
03:41
and they had a farmhouse
and a load of fields next to it,
and a load of fields next to it,
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他们拥有一个农舍以及它周围的一块地
03:45
and they wanted to develop the land.
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然后他们想要开发这块地
03:47
They had a load of ideas.
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他们有很多的想法
03:48
They first thought about making
a caravan park,
a caravan park,
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第一个想法是做一个大篷车公园
03:51
but the council said no.
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但是地方议会没同意
03:53
And then they wanted to make a fish farm
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然后他们想弄一个养鱼场
03:55
and again the council said no.
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地方议会还是没同意
03:57
Then they hit on the idea
of making a cemetery
of making a cemetery
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然后他们想到了建坟场的主意
04:00
and they calculated that by doing this,
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他们计算了通过这样做
04:02
they could increase
the value of their land
the value of their land
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他们可以提升他们土地的价值
04:05
from about 95,000 pounds
to over one million pounds.
to over one million pounds.
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大概从95000英磅提升到超过100万英磅
04:10
But just to come back to this idea
of making profit from cemeteries,
of making profit from cemeteries,
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但是回过头来看通过坟场获利这个主意
04:15
like, it's kind of ludicrous, right?
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像是有点荒唐可笑，是吗？
04:18
The thing is that the high cost
of those burial plots
of those burial plots
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问题是这些墓地的高价
04:21
is actually very misleading.
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事实上是一个误导
04:23
They look like they're expensive,
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它们看起来似乎很贵
04:25
but that cost reflects the fact that
you need to maintain the burial plot --
you need to maintain the burial plot --
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但这个价格也反映出你需要去维护这些墓地的事实——
04:29
like, someone has to cut the grass
for the next 50 years.
for the next 50 years.
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比如说，在接下来的50年里需要有人去除草
04:33
That means it's very difficult
to make money from cemeteries.
to make money from cemeteries.
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那就意味着很难从墓园中赚到钱
04:36
And it's the reason that normally
they're run by the council
they're run by the council
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这也是为什么通常这些墓园是被地方议会
04:39
or by a not-for-profit group.
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或者非盈利组织营经
04:41
But anyway, the council granted
these people permission,
these people permission,
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但不管怎么说，
这些人获得了地方议会的批准
这些人获得了地方议会的批准
04:43
and they're now trying
to build their cemetery.
to build their cemetery.
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他们正在试着建造他们的墓园
04:46
So just to explain to you
kind of how this works:
kind of how this works:
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跟你们解释一下这事是如何操作的：
04:49
If I want to build something in the UK,
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在英国，如果我想建个什么
04:51
like a cemetery for example,
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比如说一个墓园
04:53
then I have to apply
for planning permission first.
for planning permission first.
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那么我首先得申请规划许可
04:56
So if I want to build a new
office building for a client
office building for a client
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因此如果我想为客户建一栋新写字楼
05:01
or if I want to extend my home
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或者想扩建自己的房屋
05:03
or, you know, if I have a shop
and I want to convert it into an office,
and I want to convert it into an office,
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或者如果我有一个商店想改成办公室
05:07
I have to do a load of drawings,
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我得绘大量的图纸
05:08
and I submit them
to the council for permission.
to the council for permission.
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然后提交到地方议会去批准
05:11
And they'll look at things like
how it fits in the surroundings.
how it fits in the surroundings.
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然后他们会考察它跟周围是否适应
05:15
So they'll look at what it looks like.
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以及它看起来怎么样
05:17
But they'll also think about things
like what impact is it going to have
like what impact is it going to have
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但他们也会考虑它将对当地的环境
05:20
on the local environment?
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产生怎样的影响之类的事情
05:22
And they'll be thinking about things like,
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他们会考虑一些负面的影响，比如说
05:24
is this thing going to cause pollution
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这个事情会导致污染吗？
05:26
or is there going to be a lot of traffic
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或者会导致很大的交通流量涌向
05:28
that wants to go to this thing
that I've built?
that I've built?
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这个新建的建筑吗？
05:30
But also good things.
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但也会考虑正面的影响，如比说
05:32
Is it going to add local services
like shops to the neighborhood
like shops to the neighborhood
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它会为社区增加像商店这样的
05:35
that local people would like to use?
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本地居民可能喜欢的服务设施吗？
05:38
And they'll weigh up the advantages
and the disadvantages
and the disadvantages
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他们会权衡利弊
05:40
and they'll make a decision.
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然后做出决定
05:42
So that's how it works if I want
to build a large cemetery.
to build a large cemetery.
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如果我要建一座大型的墓园的话，
这就是如何操作的
这就是如何操作的
05:47
But what if I've got a piece of land
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但是如果我有一块地
05:49
and I just want to bury
a few people, like five or six?
a few people, like five or six?
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而我只想在里面埋葬少数的人，
比如就五六个人，又会怎样？
比如就五六个人，又会怎样？
05:53
Well, then -- actually, I don't need
permission from anyone!
permission from anyone!
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那么，事实上我不需要作何人的批准！
05:57
There's actually almost no regulation
in the UK around burial,
in the UK around burial,
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事实上，在英国几乎没有关于殡葬的规定
06:02
and the little bit that there is,
is about not polluting water courses,
is about not polluting water courses,
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仅有的一点就是，不能污染水源
06:05
like not polluting rivers or groundwater.
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比如说不能污染河流或者地下水
06:08
So actually, if you want to go
and make your own mini-cemetery,
and make your own mini-cemetery,
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所以，如果你想建造小型墓园
06:12
then you can.
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是完全没问题的
06:13
But I mean, like -- really,
who does this? Right?
who does this? Right?
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但我的意思是，真的，谁会这样做？对吗？
06:18
Well, if you're an aristocratic family
and you have a large estate,
and you have a large estate,
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如果你是一个贵族家庭并且拥有大片土地
06:21
then there's a chance that you'll
have a mausoleum on it,
have a mausoleum on it,
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那么你有机会建一个陵墓
06:24
and you'll bury your family there.
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并将你的家族成员埋葬于此
06:26
But the really weird thing
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但是真正奇怪的事情是
06:28
is that you don't need to have
a piece of land of a certain size
a piece of land of a certain size
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你的土地不必达到某个规定的尺寸
06:32
before you're allowed
to start burying people on it.
to start burying people on it.
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你就可以开始在这块土地上埋人
06:34
And so that means that, technically,
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这也就意味着，从技术上来说
06:36
this applies to, like, the back garden
of your house in the suburbs.
of your house in the suburbs.
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你可以申请在你郊区房子的后花园建一个墓园
06:40
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
06:42
So what if you wanted
to try this yourself at home?
to try this yourself at home?
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因此如果你想在你家里试试，
该怎样做呢？
该怎样做呢？
06:46
Well, there's a few councils
that have guidance on their website
that have guidance on their website
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有一些的地方议会的网站上有指导
06:50
which can help you.
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可以帮到你
06:51
So, the first thing that they tell you
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他们告诉你的第一件事是
06:54
is that you need to have a certificate
of burial before you can go ahead --
of burial before you can go ahead --
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你需要有入殓证明书——
06:57
you're not allowed to just murder people
and put them under the patio.
and put them under the patio.
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你不可以杀了某人然后把他埋在花园里
07:01
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
07:04
They also tell you that you need to keep
a record of where the grave is.
a record of where the grave is.
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他们还会告诉你需要记录下坟墓的位置
07:08
But that's pretty much it
for formal requirements.
for formal requirements.
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但这些几乎就是全部的正式要求
07:10
Now, they do warn you that
your neighbors might not like this,
your neighbors might not like this,
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他们还会警告你
也许你的邻居不会喜欢你这样做
也许你的邻居不会喜欢你这样做
07:13
but, legally speaking, there's almost
nothing that they can do about it.
nothing that they can do about it.
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但是，从法律上讲，
他们几乎无法阻止你
他们几乎无法阻止你
07:17
And just in case any of you
still had that profit idea in your mind
still had that profit idea in your mind
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只是万一如果你的脑袋中
仍然还有要赚钱的念头
仍然还有要赚钱的念头
07:22
about how much those burial plots cost
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想着这些坟墓值多少钱
07:25
and how much money
you might be able to make,
you might be able to make,
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并且你可能赚多少
07:27
they also warn that it might cause
the value of your house
the value of your house
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他们也会提醒你它可能会让你的房子
07:30
to drop by 20 percent.
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贬值20%
07:32
Although, actually, it's more likely
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虽然，事实上更有可能的是
07:34
that no one will want to buy
your house at all after that.
your house at all after that.
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在这之后根本没有人会愿意买你的房子
07:38
So what I find fascinating about this
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所以我发现这件事的有趣之处就是
07:40
is the fact that it kind of sums up
many of our attitudes towards death.
many of our attitudes towards death.
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它概括了你们中许多人对于死亡的态度
07:46
In the UK, and I think that the figures
across Europe are probably similar,
across Europe are probably similar,
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在英国，而且我想
整个欧洲的情况都大概相似
整个欧洲的情况都大概相似
07:50
only about 30 percent of people
have ever talked to anyone
have ever talked to anyone
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只有30%的人跟别人说起过
07:53
about their wishes around death,
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他们将死时的心愿
07:55
and even for people over 75,
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甚至在75岁以上的人群中
07:57
only 45 percent of people
have ever talked about this.
have ever talked about this.
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也只有45%的人谈起过这个话题
08:01
And the reasons that
people give ... you know,
people give ... you know,
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而人们给出的原因……就是
08:04
they think that their death is far off
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他们觉得自己的死期还很遥远
08:06
or they think that they're going
to make people uncomfortable
to make people uncomfortable
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或者他们认为谈论它
08:08
by talking about it.
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会使别人感到不舒服
08:10
And you know, to a certain extent,
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你知道，在某种程度上
08:12
there are other people out there
who are taking care of things for us.
who are taking care of things for us.
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有人在为我们操心这些事情
08:15
The government has all this regulation
and bureaucracy around things
and bureaucracy around things
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比如，政府拥有殡葬事务的
08:19
like burying a death, for example,
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一整套规定和官僚制度
08:21
and there's people like funeral directors
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并且还有像葬礼总监
08:23
who devote their entire
working lives to this issue.
working lives to this issue.
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这样将整个职业生涯
奉献在这些事情上的人
奉献在这些事情上的人
08:26
But when it comes to our cities
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但是当说到我们的城市
08:27
and thinking about how
death fits in our cities,
death fits in our cities,
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并且想一想我们的城市如何去容纳死亡
08:30
there's much less regulation
and design and thought
and design and thought
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这里面的规定、设计和思想
08:35
than we might imagine.
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远比我们想像的要少得多
08:36
So we're not thinking about this,
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我们没有去想这件事情
08:38
but all of the people we imagine
are thinking about it --
are thinking about it --
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但是那些我们以为会去想这件事情的人——
08:41
they're not taking care of it either.
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他们却也不关心这件事
08:43
Thank you.
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谢谢
08:44
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Alison Killing - ArchitectAn architect and urban designer, Alison Killing uses journalism, filmmaking and exhibitions to help people better understand the built environment.
Why you should listen
Alison Killing is an architect and urban designer working to engage people with their built environment, via design of buildings and urban strategies, film making, exhibitions and events. She explores the relationship between death and modern architecture, looking at how cities are rebuilt after disaster.
Recent projects include Death in the City (and its first iteration, Death in Venice, which was shown as an independent event during the opening week of the Venice Architecture Biennale), a touring exhibition about death and modern architecture; work with the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies on better rebuilding after disaster and how to integrate relevant urban design tools into humanitarian response; and a study of financial models for arts and community projects temporarily using vacant buildings to help these projects become self-sustaining.
Alison Killing | Speaker | TED.com