TED2015
Esther Perel: Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved
艾斯特·佩蕾尔: 艾斯特·佩蕾尔：重新思考婚外情——给所有经历过爱情的人
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出轨是一种终极背叛。但非这样不可吗？婚姻专家艾斯特·佩蕾尔研究人们出轨的原因，分析婚外情为何令人如此痛苦：因为它威胁了我们的情感安全。在婚外情中，她看到了意想不到的东西——对渴望和失落的表达。对所有曾经出过轨或被出轨伤害过的人，以及那些想重新理解婚姻关系的人而言，这都是一段必看的演讲。
Esther Perel - Relationship therapist
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Why do we cheat?
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我们为何出轨？
00:16
And why do happy people cheat?
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为何幸福之人也会出轨？
00:20
And when we say "infidelity,"
what exactly do we mean?
what exactly do we mean?
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我们所谓的“不忠”到底指的是什么？
00:26
Is it a hookup, a love story,
paid sex, a chat room,
paid sex, a chat room,
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是一夜情？爱情故事？
有偿性服务？私聊？
有偿性服务？私聊？
00:32
a massage with a happy ending?
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还是特殊按摩服务？
00:36
Why do we think that men cheat
out of boredom and fear of intimacy,
out of boredom and fear of intimacy,
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为什么我们认为男人出轨
是因为寻求刺激或是害怕亲密关系，
是因为寻求刺激或是害怕亲密关系，
00:41
but women cheat out of loneliness
and hunger for intimacy?
and hunger for intimacy?
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而女人出轨是因为孤独
或是渴求亲密关系？
或是渴求亲密关系？
00:47
And is an affair always
the end of a relationship?
the end of a relationship?
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婚外情是不是意味着婚姻已走到尽头？
00:53
For the past 10 years,
I have traveled the globe
I have traveled the globe
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在过去十年间，我走遍世界
00:56
and worked extensively
with hundreds of couples
with hundreds of couples
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走访了数百对夫妻，
00:59
who have been shattered by infidelity.
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他们都因出轨而心力交瘁。
01:02
There is one simple act of transgression
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婚外情毫无疑问是一种越轨行为，
01:06
that can rob a couple
of their relationship,
of their relationship,
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它离间夫妻关系，
01:11
their happiness and their
very identity: an affair.
very identity: an affair.
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破坏家庭幸福，衍生信任危机。
01:15
And yet, this extremely common
act is so poorly understood.
act is so poorly understood.
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然而，我们对这一普遍现象的
理解却极其有限。
理解却极其有限。
01:22
So this talk is for anyone
who has ever loved.
who has ever loved.
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因此我将这次演讲
献给所有经历过爱情的人。
献给所有经历过爱情的人。
01:29
Adultery has existed
since marriage was invented,
since marriage was invented,
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婚外情自婚姻诞生之日起就存在了，
01:33
and so, too, the taboo against it.
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我们对婚外情的反对亦是如此。
01:37
In fact, infidelity has a tenacity
that marriage can only envy,
that marriage can only envy,
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实际上，婚外情比婚姻顽强多了，
婚姻只有嫉妒的份儿，
婚姻只有嫉妒的份儿，
01:42
so much so, that this is
the only commandment
the only commandment
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以至于它成为了圣经的戒律，
01:46
that is repeated twice in the Bible:
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并且重复出现两次：
01:50
once for doing it, and once
just for thinking about it.
just for thinking about it.
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一次是不准做，
另一次是连想都不准想。
另一次是连想都不准想。
（笑声）
01:54
(Laughter)
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01:56
So how do we reconcile
what is universally forbidden,
what is universally forbidden,
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那我们究竟如何处理出轨，
02:00
yet universally practiced?
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这一屡禁不止的现象呢？
02:05
Now, throughout history, men
practically had a license to cheat
practically had a license to cheat
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自古以来，男人出轨是被允许的，
02:10
with little consequence,
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几乎不用承担什么后果，
02:12
and supported by a host
of biological and evolutionary theories
of biological and evolutionary theories
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甚至还有生物理论和进化理论
02:16
that justified their need to roam,
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来为他们撑腰，
02:19
so the double standard
is as old as adultery itself.
is as old as adultery itself.
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这一双重标准自婚外情
诞生之日起就存在了。
诞生之日起就存在了。
02:24
But who knows what's really going on
under the sheets there, right?
under the sheets there, right?
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但在床上到底发生了什么，
其实谁也不清楚，对吧？
其实谁也不清楚，对吧？
02:29
Because when it comes to sex,
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因为一谈到性，
男人可以夸夸奇谈，自吹自擂，
02:31
the pressure for men
is to boast and to exaggerate,
is to boast and to exaggerate,
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02:35
but the pressure for women
is to hide, minimize and deny,
is to hide, minimize and deny,
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而女人却要遮遮掩掩。
02:41
which isn't surprising when you consider
that there are still nine countries
that there are still nine countries
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难以置信的是，
如今仍有9个国家的女性
如今仍有9个国家的女性
02:45
where women can be killed for straying.
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会因出轨而被处死。
02:49
Now, monogamy used to be
one person for life.
one person for life.
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一夫一妻制，
曾经指的是“一辈子一个”，
曾经指的是“一辈子一个”，
02:54
Today, monogamy is one person at a time.
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而现在指的是“每次一个”。
02:58
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
（掌声）
03:00
(Applause)
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03:04
I mean, many of you probably have said,
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我想，在座有很多人可能说过，
03:06
"I am monogamous in all my relationships."
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“我在每段关系里都遵守一夫一妻制”。
03:09
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
03:12
We used to marry,
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过去我们先结婚，
03:14
and had sex for the first time.
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再初尝禁果。
03:16
But now we marry,
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而现在，我们先结婚，
03:18
and we stop having sex with others.
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然后停止与别人发生关系。
03:21
The fact is that monogamy
had nothing to do with love.
had nothing to do with love.
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实际上一夫一妻制已经与爱情无关。
03:26
Men relied on women's fidelity
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男人根据女人是否忠诚，
03:28
in order to know whose children these are,
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来判断孩子是不是自己的，
03:31
and who gets the cows when I die.
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进而决定遗产归谁。
03:36
Now, everyone wants to know
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大家都想知道，
03:38
what percentage of people cheat.
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出轨的人到底占多少百分比。
03:40
I've been asked that question
since I arrived at this conference.
since I arrived at this conference.
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从我到达现场，
就不停有人问这个问题。
就不停有人问这个问题。
（笑声）
03:43
(Laughter)
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这跟你们也有关系。
03:46
It applies to you.
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03:48
But the definition of infidelity
keeps on expanding:
keeps on expanding:
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因为出轨的含义在不断扩大：
03:52
sexting, watching porn, staying
secretly active on dating apps.
secretly active on dating apps.
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发色情短信，看黄片，
在约会软件上玩暧昧。
在约会软件上玩暧昧。
03:58
So because there is no
universally agreed-upon definition
universally agreed-upon definition
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正因为缺乏一个统一的定义，
04:02
of what even constitutes an infidelity,
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到底什么才算出轨，
04:05
estimates vary widely,
from 26 percent to 75 percent.
from 26 percent to 75 percent.
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因此这个百分比范围很广，
从26%到75%。
从26%到75%。
04:12
But on top of it, we are
walking contradictions.
walking contradictions.
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但与此相矛盾的是，
04:16
So 95 percent of us will say
that it is terribly wrong
that it is terribly wrong
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有95%的人认为，
另一半试图掩盖
另一半试图掩盖
04:19
for our partner to lie
about having an affair,
about having an affair,
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出轨的事实是不可饶恕的，
04:22
but just about the same
amount of us will say
amount of us will say
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但差不多同样多的人也会说：
04:25
that that's exactly what we
would do if we were having one.
would do if we were having one.
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如果我出轨的话肯定也不会声张。
04:28
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
04:31
Now, I like this definition
of an affair --
of an affair --
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我倾向于这样来定义婚外情，
04:35
it brings together the three key elements:
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它包含三个要素：
04:39
a secretive relationship,
which is the core structure of an affair;
which is the core structure of an affair;
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首先是遮遮掩掩的关系，
这是婚外情的核心；
这是婚外情的核心；
04:45
an emotional connection
to one degree or another;
to one degree or another;
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二是拥有某种程度上的感情联系；
04:49
and a sexual alchemy.
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三是性幻想。
04:52
And alchemy is the key word here,
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性吸引是这里的关键词，
04:55
because the erotic frisson is such that
the kiss that you only imagine giving,
the kiss that you only imagine giving,
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对于性高潮而言，即便是想象出来的亲吻，
05:02
can be as powerful and as enchanting
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也和数小时的翻云覆雨，
05:05
as hours of actual lovemaking.
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拥有同样的魔力。
05:09
As Marcel Proust said,
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如马塞尔·普鲁斯特所言，
05:11
it's our imagination that is responsible
for love, not the other person.
for love, not the other person.
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“我们的爱源自想象，而非源自对方。”
05:17
So it's never been easier to cheat,
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因此出轨是很容易的，
05:21
and it's never been more
difficult to keep a secret.
difficult to keep a secret.
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但保守出轨的秘密却难上加难。
05:25
And never has infidelity exacted
such a psychological toll.
such a psychological toll.
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因为（出轨者）要承受巨大的心理压力。
05:31
When marriage was an economic enterprise,
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如果婚姻是一家企业，
05:35
infidelity threatened
our economic security.
our economic security.
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那婚外情威胁它的经济安全。
05:39
But now that marriage
is a romantic arrangement,
is a romantic arrangement,
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如果婚姻是一种浪漫协议，
05:41
infidelity threatens
our emotional security.
our emotional security.
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那婚外情威胁我们的情感安全。
05:45
Ironically, we used to turn to adultery --
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讽刺的是，我们曾经对婚外情充满幻想，
05:50
that was the space where
we sought pure love.
we sought pure love.
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认为它是孕育真爱之地。
而现在我们从婚姻中寻找爱情，
05:53
But now that we seek love in marriage,
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05:55
adultery destroys it.
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而婚外情则将其摧毁。
05:58
Now, there are three ways that I think
infidelity hurts differently today.
infidelity hurts differently today.
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我认为，如今的婚外情有三大罪状。
06:05
We have a romantic ideal
in which we turn to one person
in which we turn to one person
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我们浪漫地认为，会有那么一个人，
06:11
to fulfill an endless list of needs:
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能满足我们所有的需求：
06:14
to be my greatest lover, my best friend,
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是我最棒的情人，最好的朋友，
06:18
the best parent, my trusted confidant,
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最好的父母，最信任的知己，
06:21
my emotional companion,
my intellectual equal.
my intellectual equal.
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是情感伴侣，又志趣相投。
06:25
And I am it: I'm chosen, I'm unique,
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而我自己则符合上述所有条件：
我万里挑一，我独一无二，
我万里挑一，我独一无二，
06:29
I'm indispensable, I'm irreplaceable,
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我不可或缺，我无法取代，
06:33
I'm the one.
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我就是真命天子（女）。
06:35
And infidelity tells me I'm not.
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但婚外情告诉我，并不是那么回事。
06:39
It is the ultimate betrayal.
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这是一种终极背叛。
06:41
Infidelity shatters
the grand ambition of love.
the grand ambition of love.
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出轨粉碎了我们对爱情的憧憬。
06:46
But if throughout history,
infidelity has always been painful,
infidelity has always been painful,
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如果回顾历史，
婚外情从来都是充满痛苦的，
婚外情从来都是充满痛苦的，
06:51
today it is often traumatic,
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而在今天更是有过之而不及，
06:53
because it threatens our sense of self.
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因为它威胁了我们的自我意识。
06:57
So my patient Fernando, he's plagued.
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我的一个病人费尔南多，就深受其害。
06:59
He goes on: "I thought I knew my life.
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他说：“我曾以为我了解自己的生活，
07:02
I thought I knew who you were,
who we were as a couple, who I was.
who we were as a couple, who I was.
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我曾以为我了解你，
了解我们的婚姻，了解我自己。
了解我们的婚姻，了解我自己。
07:06
Now, I question everything."
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但现在，我对这一切都产生了怀疑。”
07:09
Infidelity -- a violation of trust,
a crisis of identity.
a crisis of identity.
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婚外情是对信任的践踏，
对自我认同的摧毁。
对自我认同的摧毁。
07:14
"Can I ever trust you again?" he asks.
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“我还能再相信你吗？”他问。
“我还能相信任何人吗？”
07:17
"Can I ever trust anyone again?"
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07:20
And this is also what my patient
Heather is telling me,
Heather is telling me,
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我的另一个病人希瑟也有这种想法，
07:23
when she's talking to me
about her story with Nick.
about her story with Nick.
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她跟我讲了她和尼克的故事。
07:26
Married, two kids.
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他们结婚了，有两个孩子。
07:27
Nick just left on a business trip,
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尼克出差刚走，
07:30
and Heather is playing
on his iPad with the boys,
on his iPad with the boys,
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希瑟和孩子一起在玩尼克的iPad，
07:34
when she sees a message
appear on the screen:
appear on the screen:
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然后屏幕上出现了一条信息：
07:37
"Can't wait to see you."
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“我等不及想见你。”
07:39
Strange, she thinks,
we just saw each other.
we just saw each other.
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真奇怪，希瑟想，我们不是刚见过吗？
07:42
And then another message:
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然后又来了一条：
07:44
"Can't wait to hold you in my arms."
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“真想马上拥抱你。”
07:47
And Heather realizes
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这时希瑟意识到，
07:50
these are not for her.
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这些信息不是发给自己的。
07:52
She also tells me
that her father had affairs,
that her father had affairs,
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希瑟说他父亲也有婚外情，
07:55
but her mother, she found
one little receipt in the pocket,
one little receipt in the pocket,
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但她母亲只是在口袋里
发现了一张收据，
发现了一张收据，
在领子上发现了一点口红印。
07:59
and a little bit of lipstick
on the collar.
on the collar.
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08:03
Heather, she goes digging,
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希瑟继续翻看着，
08:06
and she finds hundreds of messages,
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发现了上百条信息，
08:09
and photos exchanged
and desires expressed.
and desires expressed.
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里面有互换的照片，
以及各种互诉衷肠。
以及各种互诉衷肠。
08:13
The vivid details
of Nick's two-year affair
of Nick's two-year affair
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尼克出轨两年的确凿证据
08:16
unfold in front of her in real time,
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在她面前赤裸裸地呈现出来。
08:19
And it made me think:
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我不禁在想：
08:21
Affairs in the digital age
are death by a thousand cuts.
are death by a thousand cuts.
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数字时代的出轨真是能让人
感到被千刀万剐，生不如死。
感到被千刀万剐，生不如死。
08:27
But then we have another paradox
that we're dealing with these days.
that we're dealing with these days.
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但是我们又发现了另外一个矛盾。
08:31
Because of this romantic ideal,
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因为前面说到的浪漫遐想，
08:33
we are relying on our partner's
fidelity with a unique fervor.
fidelity with a unique fervor.
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我们极度依赖自己伴侣的忠诚。
08:38
But we also have never
been more inclined to stray,
been more inclined to stray,
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但同时，我们比以前也更容易出轨，
08:42
and not because we have new desires today,
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并不是因为我们有了新的欲望，
08:45
but because we live in an era
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而是我们现在所处的时代，
08:47
where we feel that we are
entitled to pursue our desires,
entitled to pursue our desires,
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让我们觉得有权利去追求自己的欲望，
08:50
because this is the culture
where I deserve to be happy.
where I deserve to be happy.
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这就是我们的文化特点：我有权快乐。
08:55
And if we used to divorce
because we were unhappy,
because we were unhappy,
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如果过去离婚是因为我们不快乐，
08:59
today we divorce
because we could be happier.
because we could be happier.
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那现在离婚是因为我们可以更快乐。
09:03
And if divorce carried all the shame,
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如果在过去，离婚是不光彩的，
09:06
today, choosing to stay when you can leave
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那今天，能离婚而不离婚，
09:10
is the new shame.
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才是不光彩。
09:12
So Heather, she can't talk to her friends
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所以希瑟，不敢告诉自己的朋友，
09:15
because she's afraid that they
will judge her for still loving Nick,
will judge her for still loving Nick,
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她害怕朋友们责怪她还爱着尼克，
09:18
and everywhere she turns,
she gets the same advice:
she gets the same advice:
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无论她找谁倾诉，大家都劝她：
09:21
Leave him. Throw the dog on the curb.
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离开他吧，大家各走各路。
09:25
And if the situation were reversed,
Nick would be in the same situation.
Nick would be in the same situation.
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如果出轨的是希瑟，
相信尼克的处境也会一样。
相信尼克的处境也会一样。
09:31
Staying is the new shame.
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维持婚姻成了不光彩的事。
09:35
So if we can divorce,
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那如果我们能离婚，
09:38
why do we still have affairs?
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那为什么还要出轨呢？
09:41
Now, the typical assumption
is that if someone cheats,
is that if someone cheats,
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一种典型的观点是，如果你出轨，
09:46
either there's something wrong
in your relationship or wrong with you.
in your relationship or wrong with you.
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要么是婚姻出了毛病，
要么是你自己出了毛病。
要么是你自己出了毛病。
09:51
But millions of people
can't all be pathological.
can't all be pathological.
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但是不可能成千上万的人
全都有毛病吧。
全都有毛病吧。
09:56
The logic goes like this: If you
have everything you need at home,
have everything you need at home,
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这一观点的逻辑是这样的：
如果你的家庭完美无缺，
如果你的家庭完美无缺，
10:00
then there is no need
to go looking elsewhere,
to go looking elsewhere,
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那就没必要出轨了，
10:03
assuming that there is such
a thing as a perfect marriage
a thing as a perfect marriage
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假设完美婚姻确实存在，
10:07
that will inoculate us against wanderlust.
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能治好我们爱出轨的毛病。
10:11
But what if passion
has a finite shelf life?
has a finite shelf life?
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但如果激情无法持久呢？
10:15
What if there are things
that even a good relationship
that even a good relationship
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如果有些东西，
即使在完美的婚姻中，
即使在完美的婚姻中，
10:19
can never provide?
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也无法找到呢？
10:22
If even happy people cheat,
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如果幸福的人也出轨呢？
10:25
what is it about?
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这又是怎么回事？
10:28
The vast majority of people
that I actually work with
that I actually work with
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我接触和研究过的绝大多数人，
10:31
are not at all chronic philanderers.
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并不全都是积习难改的好色之徒。
10:34
They are often people who are
deeply monogamous in their beliefs,
deeply monogamous in their beliefs,
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从观念上，他们通常赞同一夫一妻制，
10:38
and at least for their partner.
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至少对自己的另一半是如此。
10:40
But they find themselves in a conflict
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但他们往往处于一种矛盾之中，
10:43
between their values and their behavior.
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就是观念和做法不一样。
10:47
They often are people who have
actually been faithful for decades,
actually been faithful for decades,
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他们通常忠诚了几十年，
10:51
but one day they cross a line
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但突然有天就跨过了红线，
10:54
that they never thought they would cross,
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冒着失去一切的风险，
10:57
and at the risk of losing everything.
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这在之前他们连想都不敢想。
11:00
But for a glimmer of what?
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但换来的是什么呢？
11:03
Affairs are an act of betrayal,
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婚外情是一种背叛行为，
11:06
and they are also an expression
of longing and loss.
of longing and loss.
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同时也是对于渴望和失去的一种表达。
11:10
At the heart of an affair,
you will often find
you will often find
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透过出轨的表象，我们经常能看到
11:14
a longing and a yearning
for an emotional connection,
for an emotional connection,
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一种寻求情感联系的渴望，
11:18
for novelty, for freedom,
for autonomy, for sexual intensity,
for autonomy, for sexual intensity,
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追求新奇、自由、自立和性快感，
11:24
a wish to recapture
lost parts of ourselves
lost parts of ourselves
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渴望找回失去的自我，
11:28
or an attempt to bring back
vitality in the face of loss and tragedy.
vitality in the face of loss and tragedy.
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或者是试图走出失意和悲伤。
11:34
I'm thinking about
another patient of mine, Priya,
another patient of mine, Priya,
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我想起了我的另一个病人，普莉娅，
11:37
who is blissfully married,
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她婚姻美满，
11:40
loves her husband,
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深爱着自己的丈夫，
11:41
and would never want to hurt the man.
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从未想过要伤害他。
11:44
But she also tells me
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但她跟我说，
11:46
that she's always done
what was expected of her:
what was expected of her:
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她总是在扮演别人期望的那个角色：
11:50
good girl, good wife, good mother,
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好女孩，好妻子，好母亲，
11:53
taking care of her immigrant parents.
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照顾自己移民过来的父母。
11:56
Priya, she fell for the arborist
who removed the tree from her yard
who removed the tree from her yard
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但在桑迪飓风来袭之后，
普莉娅爱上了那个帮她清理院子中
普莉娅爱上了那个帮她清理院子中
12:01
after Hurricane Sandy.
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残破树木的工人。
12:03
And with his truck and his tattoos,
he's quite the opposite of her.
he's quite the opposite of her.
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4563
他开着卡车，纹着纹身，
跟她完全是两个世界的人。
跟她完全是两个世界的人。
12:09
But at 47, Priya's affair is about
the adolescence that she never had.
the adolescence that she never had.
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尽管出轨时已经47岁，
但普莉娅找回了从未有过的青春。
但普莉娅找回了从未有过的青春。
12:15
And her story highlights for me
that when we seek the gaze of another,
that when we seek the gaze of another,
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她的故事告诉我，
当我们寻找情人的时候，
当我们寻找情人的时候，
12:21
it isn't always our partner
that we are turning away from,
that we are turning away from,
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并不一定是想逃离现在的伴侣，
12:25
but the person that
we have ourselves become.
we have ourselves become.
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2837
而是想逃离那个曾经的自己。
12:29
And it isn't so much that we're
looking for another person,
looking for another person,
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3546
与其说我们在寻找那么一个人，
12:33
as much as we are
looking for another self.
looking for another self.
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不如说我们在寻找另一个自己。
12:39
Now, all over the world,
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我走遍世界，
12:40
there is one word that people
who have affairs always tell me.
who have affairs always tell me.
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遇到很多有婚外情的人，
他们总是跟我说一个词，
他们总是跟我说一个词，
12:45
They feel alive.
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1881
他们觉得自己“活着”。
12:48
And they often will tell me
stories of recent losses --
stories of recent losses --
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4240
紧接着他们会告诉我，
自己最近失去了什么人。
自己最近失去了什么人。
12:52
of a parent who died,
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1855
比如父母去世，
12:54
and a friend that went too soon,
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762141
2200
朋友出了意外，
12:56
and bad news at the doctor.
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谁查出来得了绝症。
12:59
Death and mortality often live
in the shadow of an affair,
in the shadow of an affair,
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4656
婚外情常常同死亡
和人生苦短联系在一起，
和人生苦短联系在一起，
13:04
because they raise these questions.
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2470
因为他们经常会问，
13:06
Is this it? Is there more?
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就这样了吗？会不会还有其他人出现？
13:09
Am I going on for another
25 years like this?
25 years like this?
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3056
我是不是还要这么过25年？
13:13
Will I ever feel that thing again?
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2492
我还能不能感受到爱？
13:18
And it has led me to think
that perhaps these questions
that perhaps these questions
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4411
这不禁让我思考，
也许正是这些问题，
也许正是这些问题，
13:22
are the ones that propel
people to cross the line,
people to cross the line,
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3159
推动他们跨过了红线，
13:25
and that some affairs are
an attempt to beat back deadness,
an attempt to beat back deadness,
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3992
有些人想通过婚外情来重拾信心，
13:29
in an antidote to death.
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797939
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对抗情感的死亡。
13:33
And contrary to what you may think,
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可能与你们想的恰恰相反，
13:36
affairs are way less about sex,
and a lot more about desire:
and a lot more about desire:
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5036
婚外情跟性的关系更小，
却与渴望密切相关：
却与渴望密切相关：
13:41
desire for attention,
desire to feel special,
desire to feel special,
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渴望被关注，渴望重拾信心，
13:45
desire to feel important.
220
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渴望被人需要。
13:48
And the very structure of an affair,
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3010
婚外情的显著特点，
13:51
the fact that you can
never have your lover,
never have your lover,
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2252
就是你无法完全拥有你的情人，
13:53
keeps you wanting.
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1435
这让你欲罢不能。
13:54
That in itself is a desire machine,
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3021
就像有一台欲望机器在不断驱动你，
13:57
because the incompleteness, the ambiguity,
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2788
种种不完整，种种暧昧不清，
14:00
keeps you wanting
that which you can't have.
that which you can't have.
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2775
让你对得不到的东西念念不忘。
14:05
Now some of you probably think
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1536
你们中一些人可能会想，
14:07
that affairs don't happen
in open relationships,
in open relationships,
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3630
是不是在开放的关系中
婚外情就不会发生了，
婚外情就不会发生了，
14:10
but they do.
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1191
并不是这样。
14:12
First of all, the conversation
about monogamy is not the same
about monogamy is not the same
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3130
首先，关于一夫一妻制的讨论，
14:15
as the conversation about infidelity.
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2181
与关于不忠的讨论并不一样。
14:18
But the fact is that it seems
that even when we have
that even when we have
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但事实是，即使我们可以随心所欲地
14:21
the freedom to have other sexual partners,
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2673
拥有其他性伴侣，
14:24
we still seem to be lured
by the power of the forbidden,
by the power of the forbidden,
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4088
我们还是无法抗拒偷尝禁果的诱惑，
14:28
that if we do that which
we are not supposed to do,
we are not supposed to do,
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3487
如果我们做了被禁止的事，
14:32
then we feel like we are really
doing what we want to.
doing what we want to.
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2799
反倒会觉得自己在做真正想做的事。
14:37
And I've also told
quite a few of my patients
quite a few of my patients
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3604
我告诉过我的许多病人，
14:40
that if they could bring
into their relationships
into their relationships
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4601
如果他们能将自己投入婚外情的
14:45
one tenth of the boldness,
the imagination and the verve
the imagination and the verve
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3631
勇气、想象力和热情，拿出十分之一
14:49
that they put into their affairs,
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1712
给自己的婚姻，
14:50
they probably would never need to see me.
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2245
也许他们就不用来找我了。
14:53
(Laughter)
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2000
（笑声）
14:56
So how do we heal from an affair?
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884362
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那么我们该如何治疗
因婚外情所受的创伤？
因婚外情所受的创伤？
15:00
Desire runs deep.
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1919
欲望根深蒂固，
15:02
Betrayal runs deep.
245
890371
1871
背叛刻骨铭心。
15:05
But it can be healed.
246
893266
1555
但伤痛是可以治愈的。
15:07
And some affairs are death knells
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2921
有些婚外情只不过是压死婚姻的
最后一根稻草。
15:10
for relationships that were
already dying on the vine.
already dying on the vine.
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2738
15:14
But others will jolt us
into new possibilities.
into new possibilities.
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3016
而另一些却让婚姻有了新的可能。
15:17
The fact is, the majority of couples
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实际上，大部分经历了
15:19
who have experienced
affairs stay together.
affairs stay together.
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2214
婚外情的夫妻最后仍然在一起。
15:22
But some of them will merely survive,
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2633
只不过有的人精疲力尽，
15:25
and others will actually be able
to turn a crisis into an opportunity.
to turn a crisis into an opportunity.
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4704
有的人则将危机转化为机遇。
15:30
They'll be able to turn this
into a generative experience.
into a generative experience.
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3643
他们善于将其转化为一场经历。
实际上我甚至认为
被欺骗的一方更是如此，
被欺骗的一方更是如此，
15:34
And I'm actually thinking even
more so for the deceived partner,
more so for the deceived partner,
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3714
15:38
who will often say,
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926222
1336
他们经常说，
15:39
"You think I didn't want more?
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1807
“你以为我就不想得到更多吗？
15:41
But I'm not the one who did it."
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1842
但我并没有踏出这一步。”
15:43
But now that the affair is exposed,
259
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2142
一旦婚外情暴露，
15:46
they, too, get to claim more,
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2134
他们也会提出更多要求，
15:48
and they no longer have
to uphold the status quo
to uphold the status quo
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2642
不再继续委曲求全，
15:50
that may not have been working
for them that well, either.
for them that well, either.
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2914
因为委曲求全的结果并不理想。
15:56
I've noticed that a lot of couples,
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2889
我注意到，很多夫妻
15:59
in the immediate aftermath of an affair,
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2141
在婚外情曝光之后，
16:01
because of this new disorder
that may actually lead to a new order,
that may actually lead to a new order,
265
949251
4336
由于局面混乱，
可能会产生新的家庭秩序，
可能会产生新的家庭秩序，
16:05
will have depths of conversations
with honesty and openness
with honesty and openness
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953587
3582
他们往往会进行开诚布公的深入交流，
16:09
that they haven't had in decades.
267
957169
1655
这种交流可能几十年都未曾有过。
16:11
And, partners who were
sexually indifferent
sexually indifferent
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2937
之前毫无“性致”的夫妻，
16:14
find themselves suddenly
so lustfully voracious,
so lustfully voracious,
269
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2599
可能突然变得“性致”勃勃，
16:17
they don't know where it's coming from.
270
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2535
而他们完全搞不懂这是为什么。
16:20
Something about the fear
of loss will rekindle desire,
of loss will rekindle desire,
271
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3953
对于失去的恐惧可能会重燃激情，
16:24
and make way for an entirely
new kind of truth.
new kind of truth.
272
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3319
引导你通往全新的真实之路。
16:30
So when an affair is exposed,
273
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2871
那么当婚外情曝光之后，
16:33
what are some of the specific things
that couples can do?
that couples can do?
274
981004
3161
作为夫妻的当事人具体应该怎么办呢？
16:38
We know from trauma that healing begins
275
986133
4071
我们知道要想治疗创伤，
16:42
when the perpetrator
acknowledges their wrongdoing.
acknowledges their wrongdoing.
276
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3992
犯错者首先应该承认错误。
16:47
So for the partner who had the affair,
277
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3711
对于出轨的那一方，
16:51
for Nick,
278
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1532
比如说尼克，
16:52
one thing is to end the affair,
279
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1805
首先应该停止婚外情，
16:54
but the other is the essential,
important act of expressing
important act of expressing
280
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4722
但更重要的是要向妻子
16:59
guilt and remorse for hurting his wife.
281
1007109
3206
表达自己对伤害她的愧疚和歉意。
17:02
But the truth is
282
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1375
然而事实上，
17:04
that I have noticed that quite a lot
of people who have affairs
of people who have affairs
283
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3101
我注意到，很多出轨的人，
17:07
may feel terribly guilty
for hurting their partner,
for hurting their partner,
284
1015365
3098
也许对于伤害他们的另一半怀有愧疚，
17:10
but they don't feel guilty
for the experience of the affair itself.
for the experience of the affair itself.
285
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3213
但对于出轨行为本身毫无悔意。
17:14
And that distinction is important.
286
1022135
1841
这一差别非常重要。
17:17
And Nick, he needs to hold
vigil for the relationship.
vigil for the relationship.
287
1025230
3626
对尼克来说，他需要维持这段婚姻。
17:21
He needs to become, for a while,
the protector of the boundaries.
the protector of the boundaries.
288
1029253
3073
至少在一段时间内，
他要成为婚姻的保卫者。
他要成为婚姻的保卫者。
17:24
It's his responsibility to bring it up,
289
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2623
这是尼克的责任，
17:26
because if he thinks about it,
290
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因为他明白只有这样，
17:28
he can relieve Heather from the obsession,
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他才能帮希瑟走出阴影，
17:31
and from having to make sure
that the affair isn't forgotten,
that the affair isn't forgotten,
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让希瑟不必再拿出轨说事儿，
17:35
and that in itself
begins to restore trust.
begins to restore trust.
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这样信任才能慢慢恢复。
17:39
But for Heather,
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但对希瑟而言，
17:41
or deceived partners,
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或者说被伤害的一方而言，
17:43
it is essential to do things
that bring back a sense of self-worth,
that bring back a sense of self-worth,
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去做一些重拾自我价值的
事情十分必要，
事情十分必要，
17:48
to surround oneself with love
and with friends and activities
and with friends and activities
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比如同亲朋好友聚会，
感受他们的爱意，
感受他们的爱意，
17:52
that give back joy
and meaning and identity.
and meaning and identity.
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多参加快乐有意义的活动，找回自我。
17:55
But even more important,
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但更重要的是，
17:57
is to curb the curiosity
to mine for the sordid details --
to mine for the sordid details --
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不要去纠结出轨的细节：
18:02
Where were you? Where did you do it?
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你们都去过哪里？在哪里做过？
18:04
How often? Is she better
than me in bed? --
than me in bed? --
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多久见一次面？她在床上是不是比我棒？
18:07
questions that only inflict more pain,
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这些问题只会带来更多痛苦，
18:10
and keep you awake at night.
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让你彻夜难眠。
18:12
And instead, switch to what I call
the investigative questions,
the investigative questions,
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取而代之的，要问一些深层次的问题，
18:17
the ones that mine
the meaning and the motives --
the meaning and the motives --
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更关注行为的意义和动机：
18:20
What did this affair mean for you?
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这场婚外情对你意味着什么？
18:23
What were you able to express
or experience there
or experience there
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他（她）能给你哪些体会和经历
18:25
that you could no longer do with me?
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是在我这儿没法得到的？
18:28
What was it like for you
when you came home?
when you came home?
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你每次回到家有什么感觉？
18:31
What is it about us that you value?
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对于我们的关系，
你最珍视的是什么？
你最珍视的是什么？
18:34
Are you pleased this is over?
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结束婚外情你觉得开心吗？
18:38
Every affair will redefine a relationship,
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每一场婚外情都会重新定义一段婚姻，
18:42
and every couple will determine
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每一对夫妻都将经历
18:45
what the legacy of the affair will be.
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婚外情给他们带来的影响。
18:49
But affairs are here to stay,
and they're not going away.
and they're not going away.
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但婚外情不会消失，
它将一直存在。
它将一直存在。
18:54
And the dilemmas of love and desire,
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关于爱和欲望的困境，
18:56
they don't yield just simple answers
of black and white and good and bad,
of black and white and good and bad,
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不能简单地划分黑白和对错，
19:02
and victim and perpetrator.
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区分受害者和罪犯。
19:06
Betrayal in a relationship
comes in many forms.
comes in many forms.
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一段婚姻中的背叛可以有很多种形式。
19:10
There are many ways
that we betray our partner:
that we betray our partner:
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我们背叛伴侣的方式很多：
19:12
with contempt, with neglect,
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藐视，忽视，
19:14
with indifference, with violence.
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冷漠，暴力。
19:17
Sexual betrayal is only
one way to hurt a partner.
one way to hurt a partner.
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（肉体）出轨只是伤害伴侣的方式之一。
19:21
In other words, the victim of an affair
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换句话说，婚外情的受害者
19:24
is not always the victim of the marriage.
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并不一定是婚姻的受害者。
19:29
Now, you've listened to me,
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听我说了这么多，
19:32
and I know what you're thinking:
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我知道你们在想什么：
19:34
She has a French accent,
she must be pro-affair.
she must be pro-affair.
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她有法国口音，她肯定是个出轨老手。
19:38
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
19:43
So, you're wrong.
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但是，你们错了。
19:45
I am not French.
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我不是法国人。
19:47
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
19:50
(Applause)
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（掌声）
19:53
And I'm not pro-affair.
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我也不是出轨老手。
19:56
But because I think that good
can come out of an affair,
can come out of an affair,
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但是因为我经常说，
婚外情也有好的方面，
婚外情也有好的方面，
20:01
I have often been asked
this very strange question:
this very strange question:
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所以经常会有人问我一个奇怪的问题：
20:04
Would I ever recommend it?
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你有建议过别人出轨吗？
20:07
Now, I would no more
recommend you have an affair
recommend you have an affair
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我当然不建议你们出轨，
20:10
than I would recommend you have cancer,
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就像我不建议你们得癌症一样，
20:13
and yet we know that people
who have been ill
who have been ill
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尽管我们知道，有些患绝症的人
20:15
often talk about how their illness
has yielded them a new perspective.
has yielded them a new perspective.
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经常说疾病让他们
对世界有了新的看法。
对世界有了新的看法。
20:20
The main question that I've been asked
since I arrived at this conference
since I arrived at this conference
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自从我到达会场，
说我要谈婚外情的问题，
说我要谈婚外情的问题，
20:23
when I said I would talk
about infidelity is, for or against?
about infidelity is, for or against?
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大家都问我，
那你到底是赞成还是反对？
那你到底是赞成还是反对？
20:28
I said, "Yes."
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我说，“是的。”（既赞成又反对）
20:30
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
20:33
I look at affairs from a dual perspective:
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我将婚外情一分为二来看：
20:37
hurt and betrayal on one side,
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一方面是伤害和背叛，
20:41
growth and self-discovery on the other --
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另一方面是成长和自我发现。
20:44
what it did to you,
and what it meant for me.
and what it meant for me.
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婚外情给你带来了什么，
对我又意味着什么。
对我又意味着什么。
20:48
And so when a couple comes to me
in the aftermath of an affair
in the aftermath of an affair
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当婚外情被发现，
20:53
that has been revealed,
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夫妻俩来找我，
20:55
I will often tell them this:
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我经常会告诉他们：
20:57
Today in the West,
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今天在西方社会，
20:59
most of us are going to have
two or three relationships
two or three relationships
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大部分人会有2、3段恋情，
21:04
or marriages,
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或者婚姻，
21:06
and some of us are going
to do it with the same person.
to do it with the same person.
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其中有些人是跟同一个人一起经历的。
21:10
Your first marriage is over.
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你的第一段婚姻结束了，
21:13
Would you like to create
a second one together?
a second one together?
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你还愿意跟你的另一半
重新开始第二段吗？
重新开始第二段吗？
21:17
Thank you.
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谢谢大家。
21:18
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Esther Perel - Relationship therapistPsychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life.
Why you should listen
For the first time in human history, couples aren’t having sex just to have kids; there’s room for sustained desire and long-term sexual relationships. But how? Perel, a licensed marriage and family therapist with a practice in New York, travels the world to help people answer this question. For her research she works across cultures and is fluent in nine languages. She coaches, consults and speaks regularly on erotic intelligence, trauma, sexual honesty and conflict resolution. She is the author of Mating in Captivity: Reconciling the Erotic and the Domestic. Her latest work focuses on infidelity: what it is, why happy people do it and how couples can recover from it. She aims to locate this very personal experience within a larger cultural context.
Esther Perel | Speaker | TED.com