TED2008
Philip Zimbardo: The psychology of evil
菲利普．金巴多﹕常人如何變成惡魔... 或英雄
Filmed:
Readability: 4
7,078,283 views
菲利普．金巴多知道要讓一個好人變壞有多麼容易。在這篇演講中﹐他向我們分享他在阿布葛拉伊布監獄虐囚案中學到的事、和一些從未曝光的照片。然後他告訴我們另一面的事實﹕成為英雄有多麼容易﹐我們又該如何接受這項挑戰。
Philip Zimbardo - Psychologist
Philip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib. His book The Lucifer Effect explores the nature of evil; now, in his new work, he studies the nature of heroism. Full bio
Philip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib. His book The Lucifer Effect explores the nature of evil; now, in his new work, he studies the nature of heroism. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
Philosophers, dramatists, theologians
0
1000
3000
許多世紀以來，哲學家，劇作家，神學家
00:16
have grappled with this question for centuries:
1
4000
2000
都在著力解決這個問題：
00:18
what makes people go wrong?
2
6000
2000
什麼使人們變壞？
00:20
Interestingly, I asked this question when I was a little kid.
3
8000
2000
有趣的是，當我還是小孩時，我問過同樣的問題。
00:23
When I was a kid growing up in the South Bronx, inner-city ghetto
4
11000
2000
我成長於紐約南布朗克斯市中的貧民窟，
00:25
in New York, I was surrounded by evil,
5
13000
2000
周圍充滿了罪惡，
00:28
as all kids are who grew up in an inner city.
6
16000
2000
如同所有在貧民窟長大的孩子一樣。
00:30
And I had friends who were really good kids,
7
18000
2000
我有一些朋友，他們曾是好孩子，
00:32
who lived out the Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde scenario -- Robert Louis Stevenson.
8
20000
4000
但他們的人生卻如同羅伯特·路易斯·斯蒂文森筆下的變身怪醫，由善轉惡。
00:36
That is, they took drugs, got in trouble, went to jail.
9
24000
4000
他們染毒，惹了麻煩，然後進了監獄。
00:40
Some got killed, and some did it without drug assistance.
10
28000
4000
有些喪了命，即使並沒有沾染毒品。
00:44
So when I read Robert Louis Stevenson, that wasn't fiction.
11
32000
3000
所以當我讀羅伯特·路易斯·斯蒂文森的作品時，我覺得那不是小說。
00:47
The only question is, what was in the juice?
12
35000
1000
唯一的問題是：釀成由善轉惡的毒藥是什麼？
00:48
And more importantly, that line between good and evil --
13
36000
5000
更重要的是，善惡之間的界限——
00:53
which privileged people like to think is fixed and impermeable,
14
41000
3000
特權階層喜歡認定這個界限是固定且不可逾越的，
00:56
with them on the good side, and the others on the bad side --
15
44000
3000
認為他們是在善的一邊，其他人在惡的一邊——
00:59
I knew that line was movable, and it was permeable.
16
47000
3000
而我以前就知道這個界限是可以移動的，而且是可逾越的。
01:02
Good people could be seduced across that line,
17
50000
2000
好人可以受誘惑而越界，
01:05
and under good and some rare circumstances, bad kids could recover
18
53000
3000
偶爾在某些比較好的情況下，壞孩子也可能
01:08
with help, with reform, with rehabilitation.
19
56000
3000
依靠外界的幫助、改造、治療，以重塑人生。
01:12
So I want to begin with this this wonderful illusion
20
60000
2000
所以，我想以荷蘭藝術家M. C. Escher
01:14
by [Dutch] artist M.C. Escher.
21
62000
2000
這幅奇妙的作品開始說起。
01:17
If you look at it and focus on the white,
22
65000
1000
如果你把視線集中在白色區域，
01:18
what you see is a world full of angels.
23
66000
2000
你會看到一個充滿了天使的世界。
01:20
But let's look more deeply, and as we do,
24
68000
3000
但是當我們再靠近一點看，
01:23
what appears is the demons, the devils in the world.
25
71000
3000
魔鬼就出現了，世間的魔鬼。
01:27
And that tells us several things.
26
75000
1000
這告訴我們幾點。
01:28
One, the world is, was, will always be filled with good and evil,
27
76000
3000
一：這個世界，無論過去，現在，還是將來，都總是由善和惡組成，
01:31
because good and evil is the yin and yang of the human condition.
28
79000
3000
因為善惡就如人類的陰陽。
01:34
It tells me something else. If you remember,
29
82000
2000
它也告訴我另外一件事。如果你還記得，
01:36
God's favorite angel was Lucifer.
30
84000
3000
上帝最喜歡的天使是路西法。
01:39
Apparently, Lucifer means "the light."
31
87000
2000
顯然，路西法的意思是“光明”。
01:42
It also means "the morning star," in some scripture.
32
90000
2000
在某些經文裡，它也有“黎明之星”的意思。
01:44
And apparently, he disobeyed God,
33
92000
3000
顯然他後來背叛了上帝，
01:47
and that's the ultimate disobedience to authority.
34
95000
3000
這是對權威的終極背叛。
01:50
And when he did, Michael, the archangel, was sent
35
98000
3000
當他率眾背叛後，上帝派邁克天使長
01:54
to kick him out of heaven along with the other fallen angels.
36
102000
3000
將他和其他墮落的天使一起趕出天堂。
01:57
And so Lucifer descends into hell, becomes Satan,
37
105000
3000
於是路西法降入地獄，成為撒旦，
02:01
becomes the devil, and the force of evil in the universe begins.
38
109000
2000
成為惡魔，宇宙中的惡之能量誕生了。
02:03
Paradoxically, it was God who created hell as a place to store evil.
39
111000
5000
矛盾的是，是上帝造出了惡的容身之處---地獄。
02:09
He didn't do a good job of keeping it there though.
40
117000
1000
他卻沒能使惡一直呆在那裡。
02:10
So, this arc of the cosmic transformation
41
118000
3000
所以，從上帝最受寵的天使變為惡魔，
02:13
of God's favorite angel into the Devil,
42
121000
2000
這個巨大的轉變，
02:15
for me, sets the context for understanding human beings
43
123000
4000
為我設立了一個大背景，
02:19
who are transformed from good, ordinary people
44
127000
3000
去理解那些從好人或者普通人
02:22
into perpetrators of evil.
45
130000
2000
轉變成壞人的人。
02:24
So the Lucifer effect, although it focuses on the negatives --
46
132000
4000
所以，路西法效應，儘管它集中在陰暗的方面——
02:28
the negatives that people can become,
47
136000
3000
人們可能投向陰暗，
02:31
not the negatives that people are --
48
139000
1000
但他們本身並非陰暗——
02:32
leads me to a psychological definition. Evil is the exercise of power.
49
140000
6000
引導我作出一個心理學定義：惡是行使權力
02:38
And that's the key: it's about power.
50
146000
2000
這才是關鍵：權力。
02:40
To intentionally harm people psychologically,
51
148000
3000
來故意對他人進行心理傷害，
02:44
to hurt people physically, to destroy people mortally, or ideas,
52
152000
3000
對他人進行身體傷害，殘害他人生命或思想，
02:47
and to commit crimes against humanity.
53
155000
2000
犯下反人道的罪行。
02:51
If you Google "evil," a word that should surely have withered by now,
54
159000
3000
如果你用谷歌搜索evil (惡) 這個詞——時至今日，這本是個早應消亡的詞，
02:54
you come up with 136 million hits in a third of a second.
55
162000
4000
你會在1/3秒內得到1.36億個搜索結果。
02:58
A few years ago -- I am sure all of you were shocked, as I was,
56
166000
4000
幾年前發生的一件事——我知道你們當時一定和我一樣震驚，
03:02
with the revelation of American soldiers
57
170000
3000
就是揭露美軍士兵
03:05
abusing prisoners in a strange place
58
173000
3000
在那場爭議性的對伊戰爭中
03:08
in a controversial war, Abu Ghraib in Iraq.
59
176000
3000
中的虐囚行為：阿布葛拉伊布虐囚事件。
03:11
And these were men and women
60
179000
1000
這些士兵，有男性也有女性，
03:12
who were putting prisoners through unbelievable humiliation.
61
180000
5000
對囚犯們實施了讓人難以置信的羞辱。
03:18
I was shocked, but I wasn't surprised,
62
186000
1000
我很震驚，但是並不感到意外，
03:19
because I had seen those same visual parallels
63
187000
2000
因為我以前看過類似的情況，
03:22
when I was the prison superintendent of the Stanford Prison Study.
64
190000
3000
當時我是史丹佛監獄實驗的負責人。
03:25
Immediately the Bush administration military said ... what?
65
193000
2000
布希政府軍方對此事的第一反應是什麼？
03:28
What all administrations say when there's a scandal.
66
196000
2000
是醜聞發生後任何官方都會說的套詞，
03:30
"Don't blame us. It's not the system. It's the few bad apples,
67
198000
3000
"不要怪我們。這與整個系統無關。只是幾個壞蘋果而已，
03:34
the few rogue soldiers."
68
202000
1000
只是一小撮惡劣的士兵而已。 "
03:35
My hypothesis is, American soldiers are good, usually.
69
203000
3000
而我的假設是，美國士兵通常情況下是好的。
03:38
Maybe it was the barrel that was bad.
70
206000
2000
也許是裝蘋果的桶壞了。
03:40
But how am I going to -- how am I going to deal with that hypothesis?
71
208000
3000
但我如何證明這個假設呢？
03:43
I became an expert witness
72
211000
1000
我成為了其中一個名叫
03:44
for one of the guards, Sergeant Chip Frederick,
73
212000
2000
奇普·弗萊德里克中士的專家證人，
03:46
and in that position, I had access to the dozen investigative reports.
74
214000
4000
在這個位置上，我可以接觸到關於此事的十幾份調查報告。
03:50
I had access to him. I could study him,
75
218000
3000
我同他接觸，我可以研究他，
03:54
have him come to my home, get to know him,
76
222000
1000
讓他來我家，了解他，
03:55
do psychological analysis to see, was he a good apple or bad apple.
77
223000
4000
作些心理上的分析來判斷他是個好蘋果還是壞蘋果。
03:59
And thirdly, I had access to all of the 1,000 pictures
78
227000
4000
第三點，我可以查看所有的
04:03
that these soldiers took.
79
231000
1000
1000多張士兵拍攝的照片。
04:05
These pictures are of a violent or sexual nature.
80
233000
2000
這些照片都是暴力或色情的。
04:07
All of them come from the cameras of American soldiers.
81
235000
3000
所有這些都是美軍士兵用相機拍攝的。
04:11
Because everybody has a digital camera or cell phone camera,
82
239000
2000
因為每個人都有數位相機或手機相機，
04:13
they took pictures of everything. More than 1,000.
83
241000
2000
他們什麼都拍。拍了超過1000張照片。
04:16
And what I've done is I organized them into various categories.
84
244000
2000
我所做的是把它們分類。
04:18
But these are by United States military police, army reservists.
85
246000
5000
但這些由陸軍預備役的美軍憲兵所拍攝的。
04:24
They are not soldiers prepared for this mission at all.
86
252000
3000
他們完全不是為執行此項任務而設立的部隊。
04:27
And it all happened in a single place, Tier 1-A, on the night shift.
87
255000
5000
而此事僅發生在一個地點，1A層，在夜間值班時間。
04:32
Why? Tier 1-A was the center for military intelligence.
88
260000
3000
為什麼？ 1A層是軍方情報中心。
04:35
It was the interrogation hold. The CIA was there.
89
263000
3000
是審訊關押處。中央情報局在那裡。
04:39
Interrogators from Titan Corporation, all there,
90
267000
2000
巨人公司（美軍外包公司）的審訊人員，全部都在那裡，
04:41
and they're getting no information about the insurgency.
91
269000
3000
而他們得不到任何關於暴動的信息。
04:45
So they're going to put pressure on these soldiers,
92
273000
1000
於是他們向這些憲兵隊士兵施加壓力，
04:46
military police, to cross the line,
93
274000
2000
迫使他們越線，
04:49
give them permission to break the will of the enemy,
94
277000
3000
允許他們採取措施來擊潰敵人的意志，
04:52
to prepare them for interrogation, to soften them up,
95
280000
2000
挽起袖子，為審訊做準備，
04:54
to take the gloves off. Those are the euphemisms,
96
282000
2000
使他們屈服。這些都是婉辭，
04:56
and this is how it was interpreted.
97
284000
3000
而這就是他們如何闡釋的。
05:00
Let's go down to that dungeon.
98
288000
1000
讓我們進入地牢吧。
05:01
(Camera shutter)
99
289000
37000
（相機快門聲）（以下圖片含有裸露及暴力展示）
05:38
(Thuds)
100
326000
6000
（重擊聲）
05:45
(Camera shutter)
101
333000
14000
（相機快門聲）
05:59
(Thuds)
102
347000
10000
（重擊聲）
06:09
(Breathing)
103
357000
8000
（喘息聲）
06:17
(Bells)
104
365000
31000
（鐘聲）
06:49
So, pretty horrific.
105
397000
3000
很恐怖。
06:52
That's one of the visual illustrations of evil.
106
400000
3000
這是惡的一種視覺展示。
06:55
And it should not have escaped you that
107
403000
1000
你應該不會沒有注意到，
06:56
the reason I paired the prisoner with his arms out
108
404000
4000
我把那個伸開雙臂的囚犯
07:00
with Leonardo da Vinci's ode to humanity
109
408000
3000
和達文西頌揚人類的作品放在一起的原因，
07:03
is that that prisoner was mentally ill.
110
411000
2000
是那個犯人得了精神疾病。
07:05
That prisoner covered himself with shit every day,
111
413000
2000
那個犯人每天用大便塗抹在身上，
07:07
and they used to have to roll him in dirt so he wouldn't stink.
112
415000
3000
士兵們不得不使他在泥土裡打滾，以消除臭味。
07:10
But the guards ended up calling him "Shit Boy."
113
418000
2000
但士兵們最終還是叫他屎男。
07:12
What was he doing in that prison
114
420000
2000
他在監獄裡做什麼!?
07:14
rather than in some mental institution?
115
422000
3000
他本應在精神病院。
07:17
In any event, here's former Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld.
116
425000
3000
不管怎樣，前國防部長拉姆斯菲爾德
07:20
He comes down and says, "I want to know, who is responsible?
117
428000
2000
下來問，"我想知道誰該為此負責？
07:22
Who are the bad apples?" Well, that's a bad question.
118
430000
3000
到底誰才是那幾個壞蘋果？ "嗯，這是個差勁的問題。
07:25
You have to reframe it and ask, "What is responsible?"
119
433000
3000
你應該重新組織一下這個句子，"是什麼為此負責？"
07:28
Because "what" could be the who of people,
120
436000
2000
因為"什麼"既可以是指人，
07:30
but it could also be the what of the situation,
121
438000
2000
也可以是指情境，
07:32
and obviously that's wrongheaded.
122
440000
2000
而顯然那樣問是堅持錯誤。
07:34
So how do psychologists go about understanding
123
442000
2000
那麼心理學家是如何理解
07:36
such transformations of human character,
124
444000
2000
這種人性的轉變呢？
07:38
if you believe that they were good soldiers
125
446000
2000
如果你相信他們在進入地牢之前
07:40
before they went down to that dungeon?
126
448000
1000
是好士兵的話。
07:42
There are three ways. The main way is -- it's called dispositional.
127
450000
2000
有三種方式。最主要的方式是所謂的特質論。
07:44
We look at what's inside of the person, the bad apples.
128
452000
3000
我們查看那些壞蘋果的內在特徵。
07:48
This is the foundation of all of social science,
129
456000
3000
這是所有社會科學的基礎，
07:51
the foundation of religion, the foundation of war.
130
459000
2000
宗教的基礎，戰爭的基礎。
07:55
Social psychologists like me come along and say, "Yeah,
131
463000
2000
像我這樣的社會心理學家會出來說，"是啊，
07:57
people are the actors on the stage,
132
465000
2000
人們是舞台上的演員，
07:59
but you'll have to be aware of what that situation is.
133
467000
2000
但你得清楚其所處的情境。
08:01
Who are the cast of characters? What's the costume?
134
469000
3000
扮演角色的演員是哪些人？戲服什麼樣？
08:04
Is there a stage director?"
135
472000
1000
有舞台導演嗎？
08:05
And so we're interested in, what are the external factors
136
473000
2000
所以我們感興趣的是，個體周圍的外界因素
08:08
around the individual -- the bad barrel?
137
476000
2000
是什麼，壞的蘋果桶？
08:10
And social scientists stop there, and they miss the big point
138
478000
3000
社會學家研究的僅限於此，卻遺漏了這個很重要的問題，
08:13
that I discovered when I became an expert witness for Abu Ghraib.
139
481000
3000
即我在成為阿布葛拉伊布虐囚事件的專家證人後所發現的：
08:16
The power is in the system.
140
484000
2000
權力存在於系統中。
08:18
The system creates the situation that corrupts the individuals,
141
486000
3000
系統製造出腐化個體的情境，
08:21
and the system is the legal, political, economic, cultural background.
142
489000
5000
這個系統，是指法制、政治、經濟和文化背景。
08:26
And this is where the power is of the bad-barrel makers.
143
494000
3000
該系統即蘋果桶製造者權力之所在。
08:29
So if you want to change a person, you've got to change the situation.
144
497000
3000
如果你想改變一個人，你就得改變其所處的情境。
08:32
If you want to change the situation,
145
500000
1000
如果你要改變情境，
08:33
you've got to know where the power is, in the system.
146
501000
2000
你得知道其權力存在於系統的何處。
08:35
So the Lucifer effect involves understanding
147
503000
2000
所以路西法效應牽涉到理解
08:37
human character transformations with these three factors.
148
505000
5000
人性轉變是如何受這三項因素影響的。
08:43
And it's a dynamic interplay.
149
511000
1000
它是一個相互作用的過程。
08:44
What do the people bring into the situation?
150
512000
2000
人們會怎樣影響情境？
08:46
What does the situation bring out of them?
151
514000
2000
情境如何影響人們？
08:48
And what is the system that creates and maintains that situation?
152
516000
4000
製造並維持該情境的系統是什麼？
08:52
So my book, "The Lucifer Effect," recently published, is about,
153
520000
2000
我最近出版的書《路西法效應》，
08:54
how do you understand how good people turn evil?
154
522000
2000
就是關於我們如何理解好人是怎樣變成惡人的。
08:57
And it has a lot of detail
155
525000
1000
書中有關於我今天演講內容
08:58
about what I'm going to talk about today.
156
526000
2000
的大量細節。
09:01
So Dr. Z's "Lucifer Effect," although it focuses on evil,
157
529000
3000
所以，津博士的《路西法效應》，儘管著重於惡，
09:04
really is a celebration of the human mind's
158
532000
2000
但其實是頌揚人類有無限的潛力，
09:06
infinite capacity to make any of us kind or cruel,
159
534000
4000
使我們任何人向善或作惡，
09:10
caring or indifferent, creative or destructive,
160
538000
3000
關懷或冷漠，創造或毀滅，
09:13
and it makes some of us villains.
161
541000
2000
甚至可以使得我們其中一些人成為惡棍。
09:15
And the good news story that I'm going to hopefully come to
162
543000
2000
而我在最後將滿懷希望地給大家講一個好消息的故事，
09:18
at the end is that it makes some of us heroes.
163
546000
2000
即這潛力也可以使我們其中一些人成為英雄。
09:20
This is a wonderful cartoon in the New Yorker,
164
548000
3000
這是登在《紐約客》上非常棒的一個漫畫，
09:23
which really summarizes my whole talk:
165
551000
2000
它其實總結了我的全部演講：
09:25
"I'm neither a good cop nor a bad cop, Jerome.
166
553000
2000
"傑若米，我既不是好警察也不是壞警察，
09:27
Like yourself, I'm a complex amalgam
167
555000
2000
跟你一樣，我是一個正面和負面 人格特質
09:29
of positive and negative personality traits
168
557000
2000
的複雜混合體，
09:32
that emerge or not, depending on the circumstances."
169
560000
3000
至於體現哪一面，要靠具體情況而言。 "
09:35
(Laughter)
170
563000
2000
（笑聲）
09:37
There's a study some of you think you know about,
171
565000
3000
有一項研究，你們其中一些人可能以為自己知道，
09:40
but very few people have ever read the story. You watched the movie.
172
568000
4000
但極少數人讀過這個故事。你看過電影。
09:44
This is Stanley Milgram, little Jewish kid from the Bronx,
173
572000
3000
這是斯坦利·米爾格拉姆，自小在布朗克斯長大的一個猶太人，
09:47
and he asked the question, "Could the Holocaust happen here, now?"
174
575000
3000
他問，"大屠殺在此時此地發生嗎？"
09:51
People say, "No, that's Nazi Germany,
175
579000
1000
人們回答，"不，那是納粹德國，
09:52
that's Hitler, you know, that's 1939."
176
580000
2000
那是希特勒，你知道，那是1939年。 "
09:54
He said, "Yeah, but suppose Hitler asked you,
177
582000
2000
他說，"是啊，但如果希特勒問你，
09:56
'Would you electrocute a stranger?' 'No way, not me, I'm a good person.' "
178
584000
3000
'你會用電刑處死一個陌生人嗎？ ' ' 不可能，我肯定不會，我是個好人。 "
10:00
He said, "Why don't we put you in a situation
179
588000
1000
他說，"那麼我們不如把你放在一個情境裡，
10:01
and give you a chance to see what you would do?"
180
589000
2000
給你一個機會，看看你會怎麼做？ "
10:03
And so what he did was he tested 1,000 ordinary people.
181
591000
4000
於是，他找了1000個普通人來做測試。
10:07
500 New Haven, Connecticut, 500 Bridgeport.
182
595000
3000
500人來自康州紐黑文，500人來自布里奇波特。
10:10
And the ad said, "Psychologists want to understand memory.
183
598000
4000
廣告是這樣說的，"心理學家想要研究人的記憶，
10:14
We want to improve people's memory,
184
602000
1000
我們想改善人的記憶，
10:15
because memory is the key to success." OK?
185
603000
3000
因為記憶是成功的關鍵。 "
10:18
"We're going to give you five bucks -- four dollars for your time."
186
606000
5000
"我們會給你5美元——4元用來支付時間。"
10:24
And it said, "We don't want college students.
187
612000
1000
上面寫著，"我們不要大學生，
10:25
We want men between 20 and 50."
188
613000
2000
我們需要20到50歲之間的男性。 "
10:27
In the later studies, they ran women.
189
615000
1000
——他們在後來的實驗中也研究了女性——
10:28
Ordinary people: barbers, clerks, white-collar people.
190
616000
4000
他們都是普通人：理髮師，收銀員，白領等等。
10:32
So, you go down, and one of you is going to be a learner,
191
620000
3000
於是你們下去，其中一個扮演學生，
10:35
and one of you is going to be a teacher.
192
623000
1000
另一個扮演教師。
10:36
The learner's a genial, middle-aged guy.
193
624000
2000
學生是一個和藹的中年男子。
10:38
He gets tied up to the shock apparatus in another room.
194
626000
3000
在另外一間屋子裡，他被綁在一個電擊儀器上。
10:41
The learner could be middle-aged, could be as young as 20.
195
629000
3000
學生可能是中年人，也可能是二十多歲。
10:44
And one of you is told by the authority, the guy in the lab coat,
196
632000
4000
穿實驗室工作服的負責人，即權威角色，會告訴你們其中一個人說，
10:48
"Your job as teacher is to give this guy material to learn.
197
636000
3000
"你作為教師的工作就是讓這個人學習材料。
10:51
Gets it right, reward him.
198
639000
1000
記對了，就獎勵他。
10:52
Gets it wrong, you press a button on the shock box.
199
640000
2000
記錯了，你就按這個電擊盒上的按鈕。
10:54
The first button is 15 volts. He doesn't even feel it."
200
642000
3000
第一個按鈕是15伏特。他基本感覺不到。 "
10:58
That's the key. All evil starts with 15 volts.
201
646000
3000
這就是關鍵。所有的惡都是從15伏特開始的。
11:01
And then the next step is another 15 volts.
202
649000
2000
下一個再加15伏特。
11:04
The problem is, at the end of the line, it's 450 volts.
203
652000
2000
問題是，最後一個按鈕，是450伏特。
11:06
And as you go along, the guy is screaming,
204
654000
3000
隨著你不斷加電壓，那個人就會慘叫，
11:09
"I've got a heart condition! I'm out of here!"
205
657000
2000
"我有心臟問題！我要出去！"
11:11
You're a good person. You complain.
206
659000
2000
你是一個好人。你去投訴。
11:13
"Sir, who's going to be responsible if something happens to him?"
207
661000
2000
"先生，如果他出事了，誰來負責？"
11:15
The experimenter says, "Don't worry, I will be responsible.
208
663000
3000
實驗人員說，"不要緊，我來負責。
11:18
Continue, teacher."
209
666000
1000
請繼續，教師。 "
11:19
And the question is, who would go all the way to 450 volts?
210
667000
4000
問題是，誰會一直按到450伏特？
11:24
You should notice here, when it gets up to 375,
211
672000
2000
你們會注意到，到375伏特時，
11:26
it says, "Danger. Severe Shock."
212
674000
1000
上面寫著，"危險：強烈電擊"
11:28
When it gets up to here, there's "XXX" -- the pornography of power.
213
676000
3000
到這兒的時候，那兒標著"XXX"﹕限制級的權力。
11:31
(Laughter)
214
679000
1000
（笑聲）
11:32
So Milgram asks 40 psychiatrists,
215
680000
1000
於是米爾格拉姆問了40個精神病醫生，
11:33
"What percent of American citizens would go to the end?"
216
681000
3000
"百分之多少的美國人會按到最高電壓？"
11:37
They said only one percent. Because that's sadistic behavior,
217
685000
3000
他們回答只有百分之1。因為那屬於虐待狂行為，
11:40
and we know, psychiatry knows, only one percent of Americans are sadistic.
218
688000
3000
而且我們知道，精神病學顯示，只有百分之1的美國人是虐待狂。
11:44
OK. Here's the data. They could not be more wrong.
219
692000
4000
好。這裡是研究資料。他們大錯特錯。
11:48
Two thirds go all the way to 450 volts. This was just one study.
220
696000
5000
三分之二的人會一直按到450伏特。這只是一個研究而已。
11:53
Milgram did more than 16 studies. And look at this.
221
701000
3000
米爾格拉姆做了超過16項研究。我們看一下這個。
11:56
In study 16, where you see somebody like you go all the way,
222
704000
4000
在第16個研究中，你可以看到跟你們一樣的人們有百分之90
12:00
90 percent go all the way. In study five, if you see people rebel, 90 percent rebel.
223
708000
6000
會一直按到450伏特。在第5個研究中，如果有人反抗，百分之90的人反抗。
12:06
What about women? Study 13 -- no different than men.
224
714000
3000
女性呢？第13個研究：與男性無差別。
12:10
So Milgram is quantifying evil as the willingness of people
225
718000
3000
米爾格拉姆在以人們盲目服從權威，
12:13
to blindly obey authority, to go all the way to 450 volts.
226
721000
3000
一直按到450伏特的意願，來數量化惡。
12:16
And it's like a dial on human nature.
227
724000
2000
這就好像是在調節人性。
12:18
A dial in a sense that you can make almost everybody totally obedient,
228
726000
4000
調節的意思是，你幾乎可以從使絕大多數人完全服從，
12:23
down to the majority, down to none.
229
731000
2000
到使沒有人服從。
12:25
So what are the external parallels? For all research is artificial.
230
733000
4000
那麼，外界世界有什麼類似情況嗎？畢竟所有的實驗都是人為的。
12:29
What's the validity in the real world?
231
737000
1000
它在真實世界中的有效性如何？
12:30
912 American citizens committed suicide or were murdered
232
738000
4000
1978年，在圭亞那叢林裡，有912名美國人
12:34
by family and friends in Guyana jungle in 1978,
233
742000
3000
自殺或遭其家人朋友殺害，
12:37
because they were blindly obedient to this guy, their pastor --
234
745000
3000
因為他們盲目地服從這個傢伙，他們的傳道者。
12:40
not their priest -- their pastor, Reverend Jim Jones.
235
748000
2000
不是他們的神父。他們的傳道者，吉姆·瓊斯主教。
12:42
He persuaded them to commit mass suicide.
236
750000
3000
他說服他們進行集體自殺。
12:46
And so, he's the modern Lucifer effect,
237
754000
1000
所以他是一個當代的路西法效應。
12:47
a man of God who becomes the Angel of Death.
238
755000
3000
從上帝使者變成死亡天使。
12:52
Milgram's study is all about individual authority to control people.
239
760000
4000
米爾格拉姆的研究完全是關於控制大眾的個人權力。
12:56
Most of the time, we are in institutions,
240
764000
3000
大多數時間我們在機構裡，
13:00
so the Stanford Prison Study is a study of the power of institutions
241
768000
3000
所以史丹佛監獄實驗，研究的是機構權力
13:03
to influence individual behavior.
242
771000
2000
如何影響個人行為。
13:05
Interestingly, Stanley Milgram and I were in the same high school class
243
773000
3000
有趣的是，斯坦利·米爾格拉姆和我上高中的時候在同一個班級，
13:08
in James Monroe in the Bronx, 1954.
244
776000
3000
那是1954年，在布朗克斯的詹姆斯·門羅高中。
13:13
So this study, which I did
245
781000
1000
這個實驗室是我跟
13:14
with my graduate students, especially Craig Haney --
246
782000
2000
我的研究生做的，尤其是克雷格·漢尼，
13:16
we also began work with an ad.
247
784000
1000
我們也從打廣告開始。
13:17
We didn't have money, so we had a cheap, little ad,
248
785000
2000
我們沒什麼錢，於是我們打了一個簡單的小廣告，
13:19
but we wanted college students for a study of prison life.
249
787000
3000
我們想找大學生來研究一下監獄生活。
13:22
75 people volunteered, took personality tests.
250
790000
3000
75個人誌願參加，做了人格測試。
13:25
We did interviews. Picked two dozen:
251
793000
2000
我們做了面試。挑選了24名：
13:27
the most normal, the most healthy.
252
795000
1000
他們是最正常的，最健康的。
13:29
Randomly assigned them to be prisoner and guard.
253
797000
2000
然後隨機把他們分成囚犯和警衛兩組。
13:31
So on day one, we knew we had good apples.
254
799000
2000
所以在第一天，我們知道他們都是好蘋果。
13:33
I'm going to put them in a bad situation.
255
801000
2000
而我將把他們放在一個壞的情境裡。
13:35
And secondly, we know there's no difference
256
803000
2000
其次，我們知道
13:38
between the boys who are going to be guards
257
806000
1000
在將要扮演警衛和
13:39
and the boys who are going to be prisoners.
258
807000
1000
扮演囚犯的男生之間沒有任何區別。
13:41
The kids who were going to be prisoners,
259
809000
1000
我們對那些將要扮演囚犯的男生說，
13:42
we said, "Wait at home in the dormitories. The study will begin Sunday."
260
810000
2000
"在住處等著，實驗在星期天開始。"
13:45
We didn't tell them
261
813000
1000
我們沒有告訴他們的是，
13:46
that the city police were going to come and do realistic arrests.
262
814000
36000
市警察局的警察會上門做真實的逮捕。
14:22
(Video) Student: A police car pulls up in front, and a cop comes to the front door,
263
850000
6000
錄像中的男人：一輛警車停在房子前面，一個警察來到前門
14:28
and knocks, and says he's looking for me.
264
856000
2000
敲門，說是找我。
14:30
So they, right there, you know, they took me out the door,
265
858000
2000
於是他們，就在那兒，你懂的，把我抓出去，
14:33
they put my hands against the car.
266
861000
3000
把我的雙手放車上。
14:36
It was a real cop car, it was a real policeman,
267
864000
2000
那是輛真警車，是個真警察，
14:39
and there were real neighbors in the street,
268
867000
1000
街上的鄰居也是真的，
14:40
who didn't know that this was an experiment.
269
868000
4000
他們不知道這是個實驗。
14:44
And there was cameras all around and neighbors all around.
270
872000
3000
周圍都是相機，圍滿了鄰居。
14:47
They put me in the car, then they drove me around Palo Alto.
271
875000
3000
他們讓我上警車，在帕羅奧圖市的大街上行駛。
14:52
They took me to the police station,
272
880000
3000
他們把我抓到警察局，
14:55
the basement of the police station. Then they put me in a cell.
273
883000
10000
警察局的地下室。他們把我關到一間牢房裡。
15:05
I was the first one to be picked up, so they put me in a cell,
274
893000
2000
我是第一個被抓來的，所以他們把我關進一間單人牢房，
15:07
which was just like a room with a door with bars on it.
275
895000
4000
基本上就是一間門上有欄杆的房間。
15:12
You could tell it wasn't a real jail.
276
900000
1000
你可以看出來出它不是間真的牢房。
15:13
They locked me in there, in this degrading little outfit.
277
901000
5000
他們把我鎖在那兒，穿著這件丟人的衣服。
15:19
They were taking this experiment too seriously.
278
907000
2000
他們對這個實驗太認真了。
15:21
Philip Zimbardo: Here are the prisoners who are going to be dehumanized.
279
909000
2000
這就是那些將要被剝奪人性的囚犯。
15:23
They're going to become numbers.
280
911000
1000
他們的名字將被號碼代替。
15:24
Here are the guards with the symbols of power and anonymity.
281
912000
3000
這是那些警衛，他們的裝扮標誌著權力和匿名性。
15:27
Guards get prisoners
282
915000
1000
警衛們讓囚犯們
15:28
to clean the toilet bowls out with their bare hands,
283
916000
2000
徒手清理馬桶，
15:30
to do other humiliating tasks.
284
918000
2000
讓他們做其他一些羞辱性的任務。
15:32
They strip them naked. They sexually taunt them.
285
920000
2000
他們脫光囚犯的衣服，性侮辱他們。
15:34
They begin to do degrading activities,
286
922000
2000
他們開始做侮辱行為，
15:36
like having them simulate sodomy.
287
924000
2000
譬如強迫囚犯們模擬雞姦。
15:38
You saw simulating fellatio in soldiers in Abu Ghraib.
288
926000
3000
你們看到阿布格萊布的士兵強迫囚犯模擬口交。
15:41
My guards did it in five days. The stress reaction was so extreme
289
929000
5000
我的警衛在五天內就做了。囚犯們的應激反應是非常極端的，
15:46
that normal kids we picked because they were healthy
290
934000
2000
我們當初挑選他們是因為他們是健康的，
15:48
had breakdowns within 36 hours.
291
936000
2000
而這些正常的男生在36小時內就有人崩潰了。
15:50
The study ended after six days, because it was out of control.
292
938000
4000
這個實驗在6天后結束因為它已經失控了。
15:54
Five kids had emotional breakdowns.
293
942000
2000
五個男生情緒崩潰。
15:58
Does it make a difference if warriors go to battle
294
946000
2000
戰士們是否更換統一服裝
16:00
changing their appearance or not?
295
948000
2000
對於他們在戰場上的表現會有影響嗎？
16:02
Does it make a difference if they're anonymous,
296
950000
1000
他們匿名與否
16:03
in how they treat their victims?
297
951000
2000
對於他們對付受害者會有影響嗎？
16:05
We know in some cultures, they go to war,
298
953000
1000
我們知道在某些文化裡，人們上戰場時
16:06
they don't change their appearance.
299
954000
1000
是不換服裝的。
16:07
In other cultures, they paint themselves like "Lord of the Flies."
300
955000
2000
在另外一些文化裡，他們把自己塗成"蒼蠅王"的樣子。
16:09
In some, they wear masks.
301
957000
2000
在某些文化裡他們戴著面具。
16:11
In many, soldiers are anonymous in uniform.
302
959000
3000
在許多文化中，戰士們穿著統一服裝達到匿名性。
16:14
So this anthropologist, John Watson, found
303
962000
2000
人類學家約翰·華生
16:17
23 cultures that had two bits of data.
304
965000
2000
在23個文化中發現兩組數據。
16:19
Do they change their appearance? 15.
305
967000
2000
他們是否更換服裝？ 15個是。
16:21
Do they kill, torture, mutilate? 13.
306
969000
2000
他們是否殺戮，折磨，殘害？ 13個是。
16:23
If they don't change their appearance,
307
971000
2000
如果他們不換服裝，
16:25
only one of eight kills, tortures or mutilates.
308
973000
2000
八個文化中只有一個殺戮，折磨或殘害。
16:27
The key is in the red zone.
309
975000
2000
關鍵在這個紅色區域。
16:29
If they change their appearance,
310
977000
1000
如果他們更換服裝，
16:30
12 of 13 -- that's 90 percent -- kill, torture, mutilate.
311
978000
4000
13個文化中有12個，即百分之90，會殺戮，折磨，殘害。
16:35
And that's the power of anonymity.
312
983000
1000
這就是匿名性的威力。
16:36
So what are the seven social processes
313
984000
2000
那麼是哪七個社會性過程
16:38
that grease the slippery slope of evil?
314
986000
2000
會導致惡的逐漸產生呢？
16:40
Mindlessly taking the first small step.
315
988000
2000
無意中邁出第一步。
16:42
Dehumanization of others. De-individuation of Self.
316
990000
3000
對他人去人性化。對自己去個體化。
16:45
Diffusion of personal responsibility. Blind obedience to authority.
317
993000
3000
推卸個人責任。盲目服從權威。
16:49
Uncritical conformity to group norms.
318
997000
1000
不加批判地依從群體規範。
16:50
Passive tolerance to evil through inaction or indifference.
319
998000
3000
袖手旁觀，漠不關心，對惡行消極容忍。
16:54
And it happens when you're in a new or unfamiliar situation.
320
1002000
2000
而其容易在新的或不熟悉的環境中發生。
16:56
Your habitual response patterns don't work.
321
1004000
2000
你的習慣性反應失效了。
16:59
Your personality and morality are disengaged.
322
1007000
2000
你的人格和道德感被關閉了。
17:01
"Nothing is easier than to denounce the evildoer;
323
1009000
3000
"沒有什麼比公開譴責作惡者更容易，
17:04
nothing more difficult than understanding him," Dostoyevksy tells us.
324
1012000
3000
也沒什麼比理解他更難。"杜斯妥耶夫斯基告訴我們。
17:07
Understanding is not excusing. Psychology is not excuse-iology.
325
1015000
4000
理解不是找藉口。心理學不是藉口學。
17:12
So social and psychological research reveals
326
1020000
1000
社會學和心理學研究揭示了
17:13
how ordinary, good people can be transformed without the drugs.
327
1021000
4000
在無需藥物的情況下，普通的好人是如何被轉變的。
17:17
You don't need it. You just need the social-psychological processes.
328
1025000
3000
你不需要藥物，你只需要社會心理學的過程。
17:20
Real world parallels? Compare this with this.
329
1028000
4000
真實世界的情況？和這個比較一下。
17:26
James Schlesinger -- and I'm going to have to end with this -- says,
330
1034000
2000
我以詹姆斯·施萊辛格的話作為結束，
17:28
"Psychologists have attempted to understand how and why
331
1036000
2000
"心理學家已嘗試理解,
17:31
individuals and groups who usually act humanely
332
1039000
2000
一般情況下具備人性的個體和群體，為什麼以及如何
17:33
can sometimes act otherwise in certain circumstances."
333
1041000
3000
會在某些情境下，作出反常行為。 "
17:37
That's the Lucifer effect.
334
1045000
1000
這就是路西法效應。
17:38
And he goes on to say, "The landmark Stanford study
335
1046000
2000
他接著說，"具有標誌性的史丹佛實驗
17:40
provides a cautionary tale for all military operations."
336
1048000
4000
給了所有軍事行為一個警告。 "
17:44
If you give people power without oversight,
337
1052000
2000
如果你在沒有監督的情況下賦予人們權力，
17:47
it's a prescription for abuse. They knew that, and let that happen.
338
1055000
3000
那就是在給濫用開通行證。他們明明了解後果，卻任其發生。
17:50
So another report, an investigative report by General Fay,
339
1058000
5000
另一個報告，是費將軍所做的調查，
17:55
says the system is guilty. And in this report,
340
1063000
2000
認為整個系統是有罪的，在該報告中，
17:57
he says it was the environment that created Abu Ghraib,
341
1065000
3000
他認為是環境造成了阿布格萊布事件，
18:00
by leadership failures that contributed
342
1068000
2000
領導力的失誤，
18:02
to the occurrence of such abuse,
343
1070000
1000
導致了虐待的發生，
18:03
and the fact that it remained undiscovered
344
1071000
2000
以及在很長一段時間內，
18:05
by higher authorities for a long period of time.
345
1073000
2000
當局高層一直被蒙在鼓裡。
18:07
Those abuses went on for three months. Who was watching the store?
346
1075000
4000
那些虐待行為持續了三個月。有誰在看管嗎？
18:11
The answer is nobody, and, I think, nobody on purpose.
347
1079000
2000
答案是沒有人，我認為，是沒有人主動去。
18:14
He gave the guards permission to do those things,
348
1082000
1000
他允許警衛們作那些惡行，
18:15
and they knew nobody was ever going to come down to that dungeon.
349
1083000
3000
他們知道沒有人會下地牢來查看。
18:18
So you need a paradigm shift in all of these areas.
350
1086000
3000
所以我們在所有這些方面進行模式上的轉變。
18:21
The shift is away from the medical model
351
1089000
2000
原來的醫療模式，
18:23
that focuses only on the individual.
352
1091000
2000
只集中於個體，
18:25
The shift is toward a public health model
353
1093000
2000
必須轉向一個公共健康模式，
18:28
that recognizes situational and systemic vectors of disease.
354
1096000
3000
這個模式同時考慮情境和系統對疾病的作用。
18:31
Bullying is a disease. Prejudice is a disease. Violence is a disease.
355
1099000
4000
欺侮是病。偏見是病。暴力是病。
18:35
And since the Inquisition, we've been dealing with problems
356
1103000
2000
自從審訊以來，我們一直在個人層面
18:37
at the individual level. And you know what? It doesn't work.
357
1105000
3000
解決問題。你猜怎麼著，沒用。
18:40
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn says, "The line between good and evil
358
1108000
3000
亞歷山大·索忍尼辛認為每個人心中
18:43
cuts through the heart of every human being."
359
1111000
2000
都有善惡的分界線。
18:45
That means that line is not out there.
360
1113000
2000
也就是說，這條線不是外在的。
18:47
That's a decision that you have to make. That's a personal thing.
361
1115000
3000
這是一個你必須作出的決定。是個人層面的。
18:50
So I want to end very quickly on a positive note.
362
1118000
3000
那麼，我想以一個正面的意見來做個簡短的結尾：
18:53
Heroism as the antidote to evil,
363
1121000
2000
英雄主義是惡的解藥。
18:56
by promoting the heroic imagination,
364
1124000
1000
通過推廣英雄主義想像，
18:57
especially in our kids, in our educational system.
365
1125000
3000
尤其是在我們的孩子之中，在教育系統裡。
19:00
We want kids to think, I'm the hero in waiting,
366
1128000
2000
我們要孩子們想，我是那個等待中的英雄，
19:02
waiting for the right situation to come along,
367
1130000
2000
等待合適的情境出現，
19:05
and I will act heroically.
368
1133000
1000
屆時我會行英雄之事。
19:06
My whole life is now going to focus away from evil --
369
1134000
2000
我一生自小與惡相伴，
19:08
that I've been in since I was a kid -- to understanding heroes.
370
1136000
3000
如今我畢生努力之重點，將從研究惡轉向理解英雄主義。
19:11
Banality of heroism
371
1139000
1707
現在所謂的英雄主義是，
19:13
is, it's ordinary people who do heroic deeds.
372
1140707
2293
平凡之人行英雄之事。
19:15
It's the counterpoint to Hannah Arendt's "Banality of Evil."
373
1143000
3000
這是對漢娜·鄂蘭平庸之惡的反駁。
19:18
Our traditional societal heroes are wrong,
374
1146000
3000
我們傳統的社會英雄是錯誤的，
19:21
because they are the exceptions.
375
1149000
1000
因為他們是極少數例外。
19:22
They organize their whole life around this.
376
1150000
2000
他們為目標投入畢生之努力。
19:24
That's why we know their names.
377
1152000
1000
因此我們才知道他們的名字。
19:25
And our kids' heroes are also wrong models for them,
378
1153000
2000
孩子們的英雄也是他們的榜樣，
19:27
because they have supernatural talents.
379
1155000
2000
因為他們有超自然能力。
19:30
We want our kids to realize most heroes are everyday people,
380
1158000
2000
我們想要讓孩子們意識到，大多數英雄是平凡的人們，
19:32
and the heroic act is unusual. This is Joe Darby.
381
1160000
4000
而英雄行為是不平凡的。這是喬·達比。
19:36
He was the one that stopped those abuses you saw,
382
1164000
2000
就是他阻止了你們前面所見的那些虐行，
19:38
because when he saw those images,
383
1166000
2000
因為當他看到那些圖片時，
19:40
he turned them over to a senior investigating officer.
384
1168000
3000
他把它們交給了一位高級調查官。
19:43
He was a low-level private, and that stopped it. Was he a hero? No.
385
1171000
3000
他是一個低級士兵但卻阻止了此事。他是英雄嗎？不是。
19:47
They had to put him in hiding, because people wanted to kill him,
386
1175000
3000
他們不得不把他藏起來，因為有人想殺他，
19:50
and then his mother and his wife.
387
1178000
1000
還有他的母親和妻子。
19:51
For three years, they were in hiding.
388
1179000
2000
他們隱藏了三年。
19:53
This is the woman who stopped the Stanford Prison Study.
389
1181000
3000
這個女人阻止了斯坦福監獄實驗。
19:56
When I said it got out of control, I was the prison superintendent.
390
1184000
3000
當我說實驗失控的時候，我當時是監獄實驗負責人。
19:59
I didn't know it was out of control. I was totally indifferent.
391
1187000
3000
我不知道實驗已經失控了。我完全無動於衷。
20:02
She came down, saw that madhouse and said,
392
1190000
2000
她下來看到這瘋人院一樣的監獄說，
20:04
"You know what, it's terrible what you're doing to those boys.
393
1192000
3000
"你知道嗎？你對這些男孩所做的一切實在是太可怕了。
20:07
They're not prisoners, they're not guards,
394
1195000
1000
他們不是囚犯，不是警衛，
20:08
they're boys, and you are responsible."
395
1196000
2000
他們只是孩子，你要為他們負責。 "
20:11
And I ended the study the next day.
396
1199000
2000
我第二天就停止了這個實驗。
20:13
The good news is I married her the next year.
397
1201000
2000
好消息是，我第二年就娶了她。
20:15
(Laughter)
398
1203000
3000
（笑聲）
20:18
(Applause)
399
1206000
7000
（鼓掌）
20:25
I just came to my senses, obviously.
400
1213000
2000
顯然，我醒悟了。
20:27
So situations have the power to do, through --
401
1215000
2000
所以情境是有力量的——
20:31
but the point is, this is the same situation
402
1219000
1000
關鍵是，這個情境
20:32
that can inflame the hostile imagination in some of us,
403
1220000
4000
可以刺激一些人內心的敵意想像，
20:36
that makes us perpetrators of evil,
404
1224000
2000
使我們成為惡之犯人，
20:38
can inspire the heroic imagination in others. It's the same situation.
405
1226000
3000
也可以激發另外一些人內心的英雄想像。情境是同樣的情境。
20:42
And you're on one side or the other.
406
1230000
1000
而你二者必居其一。
20:43
Most people are guilty of the evil of inaction,
407
1231000
2000
大多數人對袖手旁觀之惡感到內疚，
20:45
because your mother said, "Don't get involved. Mind your own business."
408
1233000
3000
因為你母親會說，"別管閒事，先管好你自己的事。"
20:48
And you have to say, "Mama, humanity is my business."
409
1236000
3000
你一定得這麼回答，"媽媽，人性就是我的事。"
20:51
So the psychology of heroism is -- we're going to end in a moment --
410
1239000
2000
英雄主義的心理學是——我們很快會結束——
20:53
how do we encourage children in new hero courses,
411
1241000
4000
我們如何在新的英雄課程裡鼓勵孩子們，
20:57
that I'm working with Matt Langdon -- he has a hero workshop --
412
1245000
3000
我正與馬特·郎登從事這項工作——他有一個英雄工作坊——
21:00
to develop this heroic imagination, this self-labeling,
413
1248000
3000
來培養這種英雄想像，這種自我標籤，
21:03
"I am a hero in waiting," and teach them skills.
414
1251000
3000
"我是一個等待中的英雄"，並且教會他們技能。
21:06
To be a hero, you have to learn to be a deviant,
415
1254000
2000
想成為英雄的話，你一定要學會成為一個"異類"，
21:09
because you're always going against the conformity of the group.
416
1257000
2000
因為你得總是與群體規範相左。
21:11
Heroes are ordinary people whose social actions are extraordinary. Who act.
417
1259000
4000
英雄是那些在社會上行非凡之事的平凡人。那些有所為之人。
21:15
The key to heroism is two things.
418
1263000
2000
英雄主義之關鍵有二。
21:17
A: you've got to act when other people are passive.
419
1265000
2000
一：在眾人消極冷漠之時有所作為。
21:20
B: you have to act socio-centrically, not egocentrically.
420
1268000
3000
二：你的作為必須以社會為中心，而非以自我為中心。
21:23
And I want to end with the story that some of you know,
421
1271000
2000
我想以韋斯利·奧特里，紐約地鐵英雄的故事來結尾，
21:25
about Wesley Autrey, New York subway hero.
422
1273000
2000
你們其中一些人知道這個故事。
21:27
Fifty-year-old African-American construction worker.
423
1275000
2000
他是一個50歲的非裔美國人，是一個建築工人。
21:29
He's standing on a subway in New York.
424
1277000
2000
他在紐約地鐵等車的時候，
21:31
A white guy falls on the tracks.
425
1279000
1000
一個白人掉進地鐵軌道裡。
21:32
The subway train is coming. There's 75 people there.
426
1280000
3000
當時地鐵正開過來。當時有75個人在那兒。
21:35
You know what? They freeze.
427
1283000
1000
你猜怎麼著，他們全都僵住了。
21:36
He's got a reason not to get involved.
428
1284000
2000
他有理由袖手旁觀。
21:38
He's black, the guy's white, and he's got two little kids.
429
1286000
2000
他是黑人，那個人是白人，他還有兩個小孩。
21:41
Instead, he gives his kids to a stranger,
430
1289000
1000
相反的是，他把兩個孩子交給一個陌生人看管，
21:42
jumps on the tracks, puts the guy between the tracks,
431
1290000
3000
跳進鐵軌裡，把那男子壓在鐵軌之間，
21:45
lies on him, the subway goes over him.
432
1293000
2000
趴在他身上，地鐵就從他身上開了過去。
21:47
Wesley and the guy -- 20 and a half inches height.
433
1295000
3000
韋斯利和那個男子摞起來高20.5英寸。
21:51
The train clearance is 21 inches.
434
1299000
2000
地鐵列車下的空隙高21英寸。
21:53
A half an inch would have taken his head off.
435
1301000
2000
再低半英寸就會把他的腦袋鏟去。
21:56
And he said, "I did what anyone could do,"
436
1304000
3000
而他卻說"我做了任何人都會做的事"，
21:59
no big deal to jump on the tracks.
437
1307000
1000
跳下鐵軌沒什麼大不了的。
22:00
And the moral imperative is "I did what everyone should do."
438
1308000
4000
從道德責任的角度說應該是"我做了任何人應該做的事"。
22:04
And so one day, you will be in a new situation.
439
1312000
2000
那麼，將來有一天，你會遇到一個新的情境。
22:07
Take path one, you're going to be a perpetrator of evil.
440
1315000
2000
第一條路，你會成為惡之犯人。
22:09
Evil, meaning you're going to be Arthur Andersen.
441
1317000
3000
惡，即你將成為亞瑟·安德森。
22:12
You're going to cheat, or you're going to allow bullying.
442
1320000
2000
你將會欺騙，或允許欺侮。
22:14
Path two, you become guilty of the evil of passive inaction.
443
1322000
2000
第二條路：你將因漠不關心袖手旁觀而內疚。
22:17
Path three, you become a hero.
444
1325000
1000
第三條路：你成為一個英雄。
22:18
The point is, are we ready to take the path
445
1326000
3000
關鍵是，我們是否做好準備來選擇這條路
22:21
to celebrating ordinary heroes,
446
1329000
2000
以頌揚平凡的英雄，
22:23
waiting for the right situation to come along
447
1331000
2000
等待合適的情境出現，
22:25
to put heroic imagination into action?
448
1333000
2000
將對於英雄的想像付諸於實施呢？
22:27
Because it may only happen once in your life,
449
1335000
3000
因為這可能是你平生僅有的機會，
22:31
and when you pass it by, you'll always know,
450
1339000
1000
而當你錯過的時候，你將永遠記得，
22:32
I could have been a hero and I let it pass me by.
451
1340000
3000
我本可以成為一個英雄但我讓這機會溜走了。
22:35
So the point is thinking it and then doing it.
452
1343000
2000
所以關鍵是先想再做。
22:37
So I want to thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
453
1345000
3000
所以我想謝謝你們。謝謝你們。謝謝。
22:40
Let's oppose the power of evil systems at home and abroad,
454
1348000
3000
讓我們反對國內外惡之系統的力量，
22:43
and let's focus on the positive.
455
1351000
2000
並集中於積極的一面。
22:45
Advocate for respect of personal dignity, for justice and peace,
456
1353000
3000
倡導對個人高尚行為之尊敬，倡導正義與和平，
22:48
which sadly our administration has not been doing.
457
1356000
2000
遺憾的是，我們的當局並沒有做這些。
22:50
Thanks so much.
458
1358000
1000
非常感謝。
22:51
(Applause)
459
1359000
13000
（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Philip Zimbardo - PsychologistPhilip Zimbardo was the leader of the notorious 1971 Stanford Prison Experiment -- and an expert witness at Abu Ghraib. His book The Lucifer Effect explores the nature of evil; now, in his new work, he studies the nature of heroism.
Why you should listen
Philip Zimbardo knows what evil looks like. After serving as an expert witness during the Abu Ghraib trials, he wrote The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil. From Nazi comic books to the tactics of used-car salesmen, he explores a wealth of sources in trying to explain the psychology of evil.
A past president of the American Psychological Association and a professor emeritus at Stanford, Zimbardo retired in 2008 from lecturing, after 50 years of teaching his legendary introductory course in psychology. In addition to his work on evil and heroism, Zimbardo recently published The Time Paradox, exploring different cultural and personal perspectives on time.
Still well-known for his controversial Stanford Prison Experiment, Zimbardo in his new research looks at the psychology of heroism. He asks, "What pushes some people to become perpetrators of evil, while others act heroically on behalf of those in need?"
Philip Zimbardo | Speaker | TED.com