TED2010
Daniel Kahneman: The riddle of experience vs. memory
Daniels Kahnemans: Mīkla par piedzīvoto un atmiņā palikušo
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Ar piemēriem no atvaļinājumiem un kolonoskopijām, Nobela prēmijas laureāts un uzvedības ekonomikas pamatlicējs Daniels Kahnemans atklāj atšķirības tajā, kā mūsu „piedzīvojošais es” un „atminošais es” raugās uz laimi. Šim jaunajam ieskatam ir milzīgs potenciāls pozitīvi ietekmēt ekonomiku, sabiedrisko politiku un mūsu katra individuālo pašapziņu.
Daniel Kahneman - Behavioral economics founder
Widely regarded as the world's most influential living psychologist, Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel in Economics for his pioneering work in behavioral economics -- exploring the irrational ways we make decisions about risk. Full bio
Widely regarded as the world's most influential living psychologist, Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel in Economics for his pioneering work in behavioral economics -- exploring the irrational ways we make decisions about risk. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Everybody talks about happiness these days.
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Mūsdienās visi runā par laimi.
00:18
I had somebody count the number of books
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Palūdzu dažiem saskaitīt pēdējos piecos gados izdotās grāmatas
00:21
with "happiness" in the title published in the last five years
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ar vārdu „laime” to nosaukumā,
00:24
and they gave up after about 40, and there were many more.
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viņi padevās pēc aptuveni 40, lai arī bija daudz vairāk.
00:29
There is a huge wave of interest in happiness,
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Pētnieku starpā par laimi ir pacēlies milzīgs
00:32
among researchers.
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intereses vilnis.
00:34
There is a lot of happiness coaching.
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Ir daudz pamācības, kā būt laimīgam.
00:36
Everybody would like to make people happier.
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Visi labprāt padarītu cilvēkus laimīgākus.
00:38
But in spite of all this flood of work,
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Taču neskatoties uz visu šo darbu kaudzi,
00:42
there are several cognitive traps
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tās izzināšanā ir vairākas lamatas,
00:44
that sort of make it almost impossible to think straight
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kas skaidru domāšanu par laimi padara
00:47
about happiness.
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gandrīz neiespējamu.
00:49
And my talk today will be mostly about these cognitive traps.
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Mana šodienas runa būs galvenokārt par šīm kognitīvajām lamatām.
00:52
This applies to laypeople thinking about their own happiness,
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To var attiecināt uz vidusmēra cilvēku, kas domā par savu laimi
00:55
and it applies to scholars thinking about happiness,
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un arī uz šajā jomā izglītotajiem, kas domā par to pašu,
00:58
because it turns out we're just as messed up as anybody else is.
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jo, kā izrādās, mēs esam tikpat apjukuši kā visi pārējie.
01:02
The first of these traps
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Pirmās lamatas
01:04
is a reluctance to admit complexity.
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ir nevēlēšanās atzīt sarežģītību.
01:07
It turns out that the word "happiness"
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Izrādās, vārds „laime”
01:10
is just not a useful word anymore,
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vairs nav derīgs vārds,
01:13
because we apply it to too many different things.
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jo mēs to attiecinām uz pārāk daudz dažādām lietām.
01:16
I think there is one particular meaning to which we might restrict it,
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Manuprāt, ir viena konrēta nozīme, līdz kurai mēs to varētu sašaurināt,
01:19
but by and large,
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taču lielā mēra
01:21
this is something that we'll have to give up
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tas ir kas tāds, no kā būs jāatsakās,
01:23
and we'll have to adopt the more complicated view
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un mums nāksies pieņemt izsmalcinātāku skatu uz
01:27
of what well-being is.
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to, ko nozīmē labsajūta.
01:29
The second trap is a confusion between experience and memory;
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Otrās lamatas ir mirkļa pieredzes un atmiņu nenošķiršana;
01:33
basically, it's between being happy in your life,
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vienkārši runājot, tā ir atšķirība starp laimi šobrīd,
01:36
and being happy about your life
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un apmierinātību ar dzīvi
01:38
or happy with your life.
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vai priecāšanās par to.
01:40
And those are two very different concepts,
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Tie ir divi ļoti atšķirīgi jēdzieni,
01:42
and they're both lumped in the notion of happiness.
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un tie abi ir sabāzti kopā priekšstatā par laimi.
01:45
And the third is the focusing illusion,
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Trešās ir koncentrēšanās ilūzija,
01:48
and it's the unfortunate fact that we can't think about any circumstance
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tas ir skumjš fakts, ka mēs nespējam domāt par jebkādu apstākli,
01:51
that affects well-being
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kas ietekmē labsajūtu,
01:53
without distorting its importance.
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vienlaikus neizkropļojot tā nozīmi.
01:55
I mean, this is a real cognitive trap.
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Tā ir pamatīga kognitīvā lamata.
01:58
There's just no way of getting it right.
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No tās izvairīties vienkārši nav iespējams.
02:01
Now, I'd like to start with an example
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Es vēlos sākt ar piemēru,
02:03
of somebody who had a question-and-answer session
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ko dzirdēju no kāda jautājumu un atbilžu sesijā
02:08
after one of my lectures reported a story,
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pēc vienas no manām lekcijām,
02:12
and that was a story --
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tas bija stāsts
02:13
He said he'd been listening to a symphony,
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par to kā šis cilvēku klausījās simfoniju,
02:16
and it was absolutely glorious music
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tā bija neapšaubāmi burvīga mūzika,
02:19
and at the very end of the recording,
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taču ieraksta pašās beigās
02:22
there was a dreadful screeching sound.
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bija briesmīgi griezīga skaņa.
02:24
And then he added, really quite emotionally,
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Cilvēks diezgan emocionāli piebilda,
02:26
it ruined the whole experience.
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ka skaņa izmaitāja visu baudījumu.
02:30
But it hadn't.
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Tomēr tā nebija.
02:32
What it had ruined were the memories of the experience.
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Tas, ko skaņa izjauca, bija atmiņas par baudījumu.
02:35
He had had the experience.
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Pats baudījums viņam bija.
02:37
He had had 20 minutes of glorious music.
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Viņs 20 minūtes klausījās burvīgu mūziku.
02:39
They counted for nothing
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Taču tās nebija nekā vērtas,
02:41
because he was left with a memory;
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jo viņa atmiņa par to
02:44
the memory was ruined,
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tika samaitāta,
02:46
and the memory was all that he had gotten to keep.
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un atmiņa bija viss, ko viņš no tās varēja paturēt.
02:49
What this is telling us, really,
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Šāds piemērs mums parāda, ka
02:52
is that we might be thinking of ourselves and of other people
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mēs īstenībā par sevi un par citiem domājam
02:54
in terms of two selves.
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kā par atšķirīgiem „es”.
02:56
There is an experiencing self,
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Ir „piedzīvojošais es”,
02:59
who lives in the present
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kurš dzīvo tagadnē
03:01
and knows the present,
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un tagadni pārzina,
03:03
is capable of re-living the past,
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spēj atcerēties pagātni,
03:05
but basically it has only the present.
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taču praktiski pastāv tikai tagadnē.
03:08
It's the experiencing self that the doctor approaches --
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Piedzīvojošais „es” atbild ārstam, tam pienākot
03:11
you know, when the doctor asks,
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un vaicājot:
03:12
"Does it hurt now when I touch you here?"
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„Vai sāp, ja uzspiežu te?”
03:16
And then there is a remembering self,
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Otrs ir „atminošais es”,
03:19
and the remembering self is the one that keeps score,
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„atminošais es” ir tas, kurš atskatās uz notikušo
03:23
and maintains the story of our life,
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un uztur mūsu dzīvesstāstu,
03:25
and it's the one that the doctor approaches
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tas atbild, ja pienāk ārsts
03:28
in asking the question,
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un vaicā:
03:30
"How have you been feeling lately?"
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„Kā jūs pēdējā laikā jūtaties?”
03:33
or "How was your trip to Albania?" or something like that.
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vai „Kāds bija jūsu brauciens uz Albāniju?” vai ko tādu.
03:36
Those are two very different entities,
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Tās ir divas ļoti atšķirīgas esības,
03:39
the experiencing self and the remembering self,
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„piedzīvojošais es” un „atminošais es”,
03:42
and getting confused between them is part of the mess
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un to abu jaukšana ir daļa no jucekļa,
03:46
about the notion of happiness.
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kas rodas domājot par laimi.
03:49
Now, the remembering self
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„Atminošais es”
03:52
is a storyteller.
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ir stāstnieks.
03:55
And that really starts with a basic response of our memories --
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Tas patiesi sākas ar mūsu atmiņu pamatreakciju,
03:59
it starts immediately.
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tas sākas uzreiz.
04:01
We don't only tell stories when we set out to tell stories.
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Mēs, ne tikai stāstam stāstus, kad nolemjam stāstīt stāstus.
04:04
Our memory tells us stories,
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Mūsu atmiņa mums tos pasniedz,
04:07
that is, what we get to keep from our experiences
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ar to es domāju, ka tas, ko paturam no piedzīvotā,
04:09
is a story.
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ir stāsts.
04:11
And let me begin with one example.
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Sākšu ar vienu piemēru.
04:16
This is an old study.
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Šis ir vecs pētījums.
04:18
Those are actual patients undergoing a painful procedure.
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Tie ir īsti pacienti, kas pārcieš sāpīgu procedūru.
04:21
I won't go into detail. It's no longer painful these days,
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Neiedziļināšos sīkumos. Mūsdienās tā vairs nav sāpīga,
04:24
but it was painful when this study was run in the 1990s.
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taču tā bija laikā, kad veica pētījumu 1990. gados.
04:28
They were asked to report on their pain every 60 seconds.
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Viņiem lūdza novērtēt savas sāpes ik pēc 60 sekundēm.
04:31
Here are two patients,
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Lūk, divi pacienti,
04:34
those are their recordings.
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tie ir viņu rezultāti.
04:36
And you are asked, "Who of them suffered more?"
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Jums vaicā: „Kurš no viņiem cieta vairāk?”
04:39
And it's a very easy question.
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Tas ir ļoti vienkāršs jautājums.
04:41
Clearly, Patient B suffered more --
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Acīmredzami vairāk cieta pacients B,
04:43
his colonoscopy was longer,
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viņa kolonoskopija bija ilgāka,
04:45
and every minute of pain that Patient A had,
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ikkatra sāppīgā minūte, kas bija pacientam A,
04:48
Patient B had, and more.
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bija arī pacientam B un vēl.
04:51
But now there is another question:
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Taču nu ir vēl viens jautājums:
04:54
"How much did these patients think they suffered?"
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„Cik pašiem pacientiem šķita, ka viņi mocījās?”
04:57
And here is a surprise.
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Te nu gan ir pārsteigums.
04:59
The surprise is that Patient A
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Pārsteigums ir, ka pacientam A
05:01
had a much worse memory of the colonoscopy
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par savu kolonoskopiju bija daudz sliktākas atmiņas,
05:04
than Patient B.
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nekā pacientam B.
05:06
The stories of the colonoscopies were different,
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Kolonoskopiju stāsti bija atšķirīgi,
05:09
and because a very critical part of the story is how it ends.
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jo ļoti būtiska stāsta daļa ir tas, kā tas beidzās.
05:15
And neither of these stories is very inspiring or great --
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Neviens no stāstiem nav īpaši iedvesmojošs vai lielisks,
05:18
but one of them is this distinct ... (Laughter)
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bet viens noteikti ir ... (Smiekli)
05:22
but one of them is distinctly worse than the other.
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bet viens noteikti ir sliktāks par otru.
05:25
And the one that is worse
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Sliktākais ir
05:27
is the one where pain was at its peak at the very end;
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tas, kurā sāpes pašās beigās bija vislielākās;
05:30
it's a bad story.
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tas ir slikts stāsts.
05:32
How do we know that?
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Kā mēs to zinām?
05:34
Because we asked these people after their colonoscopy,
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Jo mēs pēc kolonoskopijas un arī daudz vēlāk pavaicājām
05:37
and much later, too,
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šiem cilvēkiem:
05:38
"How bad was the whole thing, in total?"
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„Cik traki viss bija kopumā?”
05:40
And it was much worse for A than for B, in memory.
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A to atminās daudz sliktāku, nekā B.
05:44
Now this is a direct conflict
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Tā ir tieša pretruna
05:46
between the experiencing self and the remembering self.
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starp „piedzīvojošo es” un „atminošo es”.
05:49
From the point of view of the experiencing self,
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No „piedzīvojošā es” skata punkta,
05:52
clearly, B had a worse time.
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nepārprotami, B gāja daudz ļaunāk.
05:54
Now, what you could do with Patient A,
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Ar pacientu A varētu izdarīt tā,
05:57
and we actually ran clinical experiments,
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mēs īstenībā esam veikuši klīniskus eksperimentus,
06:00
and it has been done, and it does work --
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un tas tiešām darbojas,
06:02
you could actually extend the colonoscopy of Patient A
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varētu pagarināt kolonoskopiju pacientam A,
06:07
by just keeping the tube in without jiggling it too much.
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atstājot cauruli iekšā un to pārāk nekustinot.
06:10
That will cause the patient
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Tas liks pacientam
06:13
to suffer, but just a little
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ciest, bet tikai nedaudz,
06:16
and much less than before.
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daudz mazāk kā iepriekš.
06:18
And if you do that for a couple of minutes,
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Ja to dara pāris minūtes,
06:20
you have made the experiencing self
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jūs pacienta A „piedzīvojošo es”
06:22
of Patient A worse off,
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mazliet apgrūtinat,
06:24
and you have the remembering self of Patient A
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taču pacienta A „atminošo es”
06:27
a lot better off,
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esat ļoti atvieglojis,
06:29
because now you have endowed Patient A
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jo nu esat apgādājis pacientu A
06:31
with a better story
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ar labāku stāstu
06:33
about his experience.
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par viņa piedzīvoto.
06:36
What defines a story?
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Kas nosaka stāstu?
06:39
And that is true of the stories
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To var attiecināt uz stāstiem,
06:41
that memory delivers for us,
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ko mums sniedz atmiņas,
06:43
and it's also true of the stories that we make up.
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tā ir taisnība arī par stāstiem, ko izdomājam.
06:46
What defines a story are changes,
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Stāstu nosaka izmaiņas,
06:50
significant moments and endings.
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būtiskie mirkļi un nobeigumi.
06:53
Endings are very, very important
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Beigas ir ļoti, ļoti svarīgas,
06:55
and, in this case, the ending dominated.
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šajā gadījumā beigas dominēja.
06:59
Now, the experiencing self
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„Piedzīvojošais es”
07:01
lives its life continuously.
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dzīvo savu dzīvi nepārtraukti.
07:04
It has moments of experience, one after the other.
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Tas piedzīvo mirkļus vienu pēc otra.
07:07
And you can ask: What happens to these moments?
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Var vaicāt: „Kas notiek ar šiem mirkļiem?”
07:10
And the answer is really straightforward:
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Atbilde ir patiešām vienkārša:
07:12
They are lost forever.
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Tie pazūd uz mūžiem.
07:14
I mean, most of the moments of our life --
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Vairums mūsu dzīves mirkļu,
07:16
and I calculated, you know, the psychological present
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es parēķināju, tiek apgalvots, ka psiholoģiskā tagadne
07:19
is said to be about three seconds long;
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ir aptuveni trīs sekundes gara,
07:21
that means that, you know,
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tas nozīmē, ka
07:23
in a life there are about 600 million of them;
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dzīvē tādu ir aptuveni 600 miljonu,
07:25
in a month, there are about 600,000 --
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mēnesī apmēram 600 000,
07:28
most of them don't leave a trace.
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vairums no tām pazūd bez pēdām.
07:32
Most of them are completely ignored
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Vairumu no tiem „atminošais es”
07:34
by the remembering self.
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pilnībā neievēro.
07:36
And yet, somehow you get the sense
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Tomēr kaut kā rodas sajūta, ka
07:38
that they should count,
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tie būtu jāņem vērā, ka
07:40
that what happens during these moments of experience
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tas, kas notiek šajos pieredzes mirkļos,
07:43
is our life.
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ir mūsu dzīve.
07:45
It's the finite resource that we're spending
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Tas ir ierobežotais resurss, ko tērējam
07:47
while we're on this earth.
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kamēr esam uz šīs Zemes.
07:49
And how to spend it
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Veids, kā to darīt,
07:51
would seem to be relevant,
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šķistu svarīgs,
07:53
but that is not the story
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taču tas nav tas,
07:55
that the remembering self keeps for us.
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ko „atminošais es” mums saglabā.
07:57
So we have the remembering self
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Tātad, mums ir „atminošais es”
07:59
and the experiencing self,
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un „piedzīvojošais es”,
08:01
and they're really quite distinct.
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un viņi ir ļoti nošķirti.
08:03
The biggest difference between them
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Lielākā to atšķirība
08:05
is in the handling of time.
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ir attieksme pret laiku.
08:08
From the point of view of the experiencing self,
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No „piedzīvojošā es” skata punkta,
08:11
if you have a vacation,
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ja esat atvaļinājumā,
08:13
and the second week is just as good as the first,
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un otrā nedēļa ir tikpat laba, kā pirmā,
08:16
then the two-week vacation
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tad divu nedēļu atvaļinājums
08:19
is twice as good as the one-week vacation.
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ir divtik labs kā vienas nedēļas atpūta.
08:22
That's not the way it works at all for the remembering self.
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Tā nepavisam nedarbojas „atminošais es”.
08:25
For the remembering self, a two-week vacation
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„Atminošajam es” divu nedēļu atvaļinājums
08:27
is barely better than the one-week vacation
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ir tik tikko labāks par vienas nedēļas,
08:30
because there are no new memories added.
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jo netiek pievienotas jaunas atmiņas.
08:32
You have not changed the story.
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Jūs neesat mainījis stāstu.
08:35
And in this way,
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Šādā ziņā
08:37
time is actually the critical variable
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īstenībā laiks ir būtisks mainīgais,
08:40
that distinguishes a remembering self
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kas nošķir „atminošo es”
08:43
from an experiencing self;
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no „piedzīvojošā es”.
08:45
time has very little impact on the story.
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Laikam ir pavisam neliela ietekme uz stāstu.
08:49
Now, the remembering self does more
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„Atminošais es” dara ko vairāk,
08:52
than remember and tell stories.
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kā tikai atceras un stāsta.
08:54
It is actually the one that makes decisions
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Īstenībā tas ir tas, kurš pieņem lēmumus,
08:58
because, if you have a patient who has had, say,
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jo, jums ir pacients, kuram, teiksim,
09:00
two colonoscopies with two different surgeons
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divi dažādi ķirurgi katrs veikuši kolonoskopiju,
09:03
and is deciding which of them to choose,
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un domā, kuru no abiem izvēlēties,
09:06
then the one that chooses
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tad izvēlēts tiks tas,
09:09
is the one that has the memory that is less bad,
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ar kuru saistās
09:13
and that's the surgeon that will be chosen.
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mazāk sāpīgās atmiņas.
09:15
The experiencing self
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„Piedzīvojošajam es”
09:17
has no voice in this choice.
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lēmuma pieņemšanā nav teikšanas.
09:20
We actually don't choose between experiences,
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Mēs neizvēlamies pēc piedzīvotā,
09:23
we choose between memories of experiences.
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mēs izvēlamies pēc atmiņām par piedzīvoto.
09:26
And even when we think about the future,
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Pat, domājot par nākotni,
09:29
we don't think of our future normally as experiences.
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mēs nedomājam par nākotni kā piedzīvojumiem.
09:32
We think of our future
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Mēs par to domājam
09:34
as anticipated memories.
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kā gaidāmajām atmiņām.
09:37
And basically you can look at this,
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Uz to praktiski var skatīties
09:39
you know, as a tyranny of the remembering self,
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kā „atminošā es” tirāniju,
09:42
and you can think of the remembering self
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un par „atminošo es” var domāt kā
09:44
sort of dragging the experiencing self
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velkam līdzi „piedzīvojošo es”
09:46
through experiences that
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caur piedzīvojumiem, kas
09:48
the experiencing self doesn't need.
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tam nav vajadzīgi.
09:50
I have that sense that
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Man ir tāda sajūta, ka,
09:52
when we go on vacations
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dodoties atvaļinājumos,
09:54
this is very frequently the case;
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tas ļoti bieži ir šāds gadījums,
09:56
that is, we go on vacations,
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proti, mēs atvaļinājumā dodamies
09:58
to a very large extent,
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lielā mērā tikai pakļaujoties
10:00
in the service of our remembering self.
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savam „atminošajam es”.
10:03
And this is a bit hard to justify I think.
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Manuprāt, to ir pagrūti attaisnot.
10:06
I mean, how much do we consume our memories?
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Cik daudz no savām atmiņām mēs pārcilājam?
10:09
That is one of the explanations
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Tas ir viens no skaidrojumiem,
10:11
that is given for the dominance
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kas sniegts „atminošā es”
10:13
of the remembering self.
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plašajai dominancei.
10:15
And when I think about that, I think about a vacation
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Domājot par to, es atceros atvaļinājumu,
10:17
we had in Antarctica a few years ago,
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kuru pirms pāris gadiem pavadījām Antarktīdā,
10:20
which was clearly the best vacation I've ever had,
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tas neapšaubāmi ir labākais atvaļinājums, kāds man bijis,
10:23
and I think of it relatively often,
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un es to atminos samērā bieži,
10:25
relative to how much I think of other vacations.
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salīdzinoši biežāk par citām atpūtas reizēm.
10:27
And I probably have consumed
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Pēdējos četrus gadus
10:31
my memories of that three-week trip, I would say,
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esmu atmiņā pārcilājis aptuveni 25 minūtes
10:33
for about 25 minutes in the last four years.
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no šī trīs nedēļu brauciena.
10:36
Now, if I had ever opened the folder
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Ja es būtu atvēris mapi
10:39
with the 600 pictures in it,
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ar 600 attēliem tajā,
10:42
I would have spent another hour.
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es būtu pavadījis vēl kāda stundu.
10:44
Now, that is three weeks,
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Atvaļinājums bija 3 nedēļas,
10:46
and that is at most an hour and a half.
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un labākajā gadījumā atminos pusotru stundu.
10:48
There seems to be a discrepancy.
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Parādās nesakritība.
10:50
Now, I may be a bit extreme, you know,
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Varbūt esmu ārkārtējs gadījums
10:52
in how little appetite I have for consuming memories,
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savas apetītes trūkumā uz atmiņu pārcilāšanu,
10:55
but even if you do more of this,
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taču pat ja to dara vairāk,
10:58
there is a genuine question:
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rodas neviltots jautājums:
11:01
Why do we put so much weight on memory
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Kādēļ mēs liekam tādu uzsvaru uz atmiņām
11:05
relative to the weight that we put on experiences?
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salīdzinājumā ar interesi par piedzīvoto?
11:08
So I want you to think
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Vēlos, lai apsverat
11:10
about a thought experiment.
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domu eksperimentu.
11:13
Imagine that for your next vacation,
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Iedomājieties, ka
11:15
you know that at the end of the vacation
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jūsu nākamā atvaļinājuma beigās
11:18
all your pictures will be destroyed,
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visas jūsu bildes tiks iznīcinātas,
11:21
and you'll get an amnesic drug
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un jūs saņemsiet amnēzijas tableti,
11:23
so that you won't remember anything.
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kas liks visu aizmirst.
11:25
Now, would you choose the same vacation? (Laughter)
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Vai jūs izvēlētos to pašu atvaļinājumu? (Smiekli)
11:29
And if you would choose a different vacation,
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Ja jūs izvēlaties citu atvaļinājumu,
11:34
there is a conflict between your two selves,
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rodas nesaskaņas starp diviem „es”.
11:36
and you need to think about how to adjudicate that conflict,
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Ir jādomā, kā šīs nesaskaņas risināt,
11:39
and it's actually not at all obvious, because
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un risinājums nepavisam nav acīmredzams, jo,
11:42
if you think in terms of time,
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domājot par pavadīto laiku,
11:45
then you get one answer,
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jūs izvēlaties vienu,
11:48
and if you think in terms of memories,
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un, domājat par atmiņām,
11:51
you might get another answer.
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jūs izvēlaties otru.
11:53
Why do we pick the vacations we do
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Iemesli sava atvaļinājuma izvēlei
11:56
is a problem that confronts us
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ir jautājums, kas liek mums
11:59
with a choice between the two selves.
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izvēlēties starp diviem „es”.
12:01
Now, the two selves
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Abi „es”
12:04
bring up two notions of happiness.
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izceļ divus priekšstatus par laimi.
12:06
There are really two concepts of happiness
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Ir divi laimes jēdzieni,
12:08
that we can apply, one per self.
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ko varam aplūkot, viens katram "es".
12:11
So you can ask: How happy is the experiencing self?
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Var vaicāt: „Cik laimīgs ir „piedzīvojošais es”?”
12:16
And then you would ask: How happy are the moments
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Un „Cik daudz laimes ir brīžos, ko
12:18
in the experiencing self's life?
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piedzīvojošais „es” piedzīvo?"
12:21
And they're all -- happiness for moments
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Tie visi, laimes daudzums brīžos,
12:23
is a fairly complicated process.
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ir diezgan sarežģīts process.
12:25
What are the emotions that can be measured?
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Kuras ir tās sajūtas, ko varam izmērīt?
12:28
And, by the way, now we are capable
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Starp citu, nu mēs diezgan labi
12:30
of getting a pretty good idea
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spējam nomērīt,
12:32
of the happiness of the experiencing self over time.
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cik prieka laika gaitā izjūt „piedzīvojošais es”.
12:38
If you ask for the happiness of the remembering self,
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Ja vaicājat par laimi, ko jūt „atminošais es”,
12:41
it's a completely different thing.
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tā ir pavisam cita lieta.
12:43
This is not about how happily a person lives.
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Tas nav par prieku cilvēka dzīvē,
12:46
It is about how satisfied or pleased the person is
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tas ir par to, cik apmierināts šis cilvēks ir,
12:49
when that person thinks about her life.
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šim cilvēkam domājot par savu dzīvi.
12:53
Very different notion.
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Pilnīgi cits priekšstats.
12:55
Anyone who doesn't distinguish those notions
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Ikviens, kurš nenošķir šos priekšstatus,
12:58
is going to mess up the study of happiness,
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salaidīs dēlī laimes pētīšanu, un
13:00
and I belong to a crowd of students of well-being,
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es piederu veselai varzai laimes pētnieku,
13:03
who've been messing up the study of happiness for a long time
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kas tieši šādā veidā ilgu laiku laimes pētīšanu
13:07
in precisely this way.
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ir salaiduši dēlī.
13:09
The distinction between the
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Atšķirība starp
13:11
happiness of the experiencing self
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laimi „piedzīvojošā es”
13:13
and the satisfaction of the remembering self
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un apmierinātību, ko jūt „atminošais es”,
13:16
has been recognized in recent years,
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nesenajos gados ir tikusi atzīta,
13:18
and there are now efforts to measure the two separately.
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ir bijuši centieni mērīt tos kā atsevišķus.
13:21
The Gallup Organization has a world poll
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Galepa sabiedriskās domas institūts aptaujāja
13:24
where more than half a million people
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vairāk kā pusmiljonu cilvēku
13:26
have been asked questions
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par to, ko viņi
13:28
about what they think of their life
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domā par savu dzīvi
13:30
and about their experiences,
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un saviem piedzīvojumiem,
13:32
and there have been other efforts along those lines.
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ir bijuši arī citi, līdzīgi centieni.
13:35
So in recent years, we have begun to learn
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Tātad, nesenajos gados esam sākuši izzināt
13:38
about the happiness of the two selves.
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divu „es” attieksmi pret laimi.
13:41
And the main lesson I think that we have learned
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Manuprāt, galvenā mācība, ko guvām,
13:44
is they are really different.
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ir, ka tie ir ļoti atšķirīgi.
13:46
You can know how satisfied somebody is with their life,
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Jūs varat zināt, cik apmierināts kāds ir ar savu dzīvi
13:51
and that really doesn't teach you much
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un tas jums neko daudz nepasaka
13:53
about how happily they're living their life,
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par to, cik laimīgi viņi dzīvo savu dzīvi
13:56
and vice versa.
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un otrādi.
13:58
Just to give you a sense of the correlation,
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Lai sniegtu nojausmu par korelāciju,
14:00
the correlation is about .5.
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tā ir aptuveni 0,5.
14:02
What that means is if you met somebody,
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Tas nozīmē, ka, ja jūs satiktu kādu,
14:05
and you were told, "Oh his father is six feet tall,"
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kurš apgalvo, ka „mans tēvs ir sešas pēdas garš.”
14:09
how much would you know about his height?
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Cik daudz jūs zinātu par viņa augumu?
14:11
Well, you would know something about his height,
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Jūs zinātu kaut ko par viņa garumu,
14:13
but there's a lot of uncertainty.
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bet ir liela nenoteiktība.
14:15
You have that much uncertainty.
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Ir tikpat daudz nenoteiktības.
14:17
If I tell you that somebody ranked their life eight on a scale of ten,
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Ja pasaku, ka kāds savu dzīvi 10 baļļu skalā novērtēja ar 8,
14:21
you have a lot of uncertainty
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jums ir liela nenoteiktība
14:23
about how happy they are
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par viņu apmierinātību
14:25
with their experiencing self.
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ar savu „piedzīvojošo es”.
14:27
So the correlation is low.
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Korelācija ir zema.
14:29
We know something about what controls
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Mēs zinām kaut ko par „laimīga es”
14:32
satisfaction of the happiness self.
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noteicošajiem faktoriem.
14:34
We know that money is very important,
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Zinām, ka nauda ir ļoti svarīga,
14:36
goals are very important.
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ļoti svarīgi ir mērķi.
14:38
We know that happiness is mainly
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Zinām, ka laime galvenokārt ir
14:42
being satisfied with people that we like,
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apmierinātība ar cilvēkiem, kas mums patīk,
14:45
spending time with people that we like.
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laika pavadīšana ar šiem cilvēkiem.
14:48
There are other pleasures, but this is dominant.
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Ir citas baudas, bet tas ir noteicošais.
14:50
So if you want to maximize the happiness of the two selves,
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Tātad, ja vēlaties palielināt abu „es” laimi,
14:53
you are going to end up
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jums beigās nāksies darīt
14:55
doing very different things.
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ļoti atšķirīgas lietas.
14:57
The bottom line of what I've said here
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Manis teiktā zemteksts
14:59
is that we really should not think of happiness
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ir, ka mums par laimi nebūtu jādomā kā
15:03
as a substitute for well-being.
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par labsajūtas aizvietotāju.
15:05
It is a completely different notion.
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Tas ir pilnīgi cits jēdziens.
15:08
Now, very quickly,
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Ļoti ātri,
15:11
another reason we cannot think straight about happiness
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par laimi nespējam domāt skaidri arī,
15:15
is that we do not attend to the same things
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jo par svarīgām uzskatām atšķirīgas lietas,
15:22
when we think about life, and we actually live.
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domājot par dzīvi un patiešām to piedzīvojot.
15:25
So, if you ask the simple question of how happy people are in California,
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Ja vaicājat, cik laimīgi ir cilvēki Kalifornijā,
15:30
you are not going to get to the correct answer.
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jūs nenonāksiet līdz pareizajai atbildei.
15:33
When you ask that question,
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Uzdodot šo jautājumu, jūs uzskatāt,
15:35
you think people must be happier in California
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ka Kalifornijā cilvēkiem jābūt laimīgākiem,
15:37
if, say, you live in Ohio.
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ja dzīvojat, teiksim, Ohaio.
15:39
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
15:41
And what happens is
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Jums domājot
15:44
when you think about living in California,
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par dzīvošanu Kalifornijā,
15:48
you are thinking of the contrast
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jūs domājat par kontrastu
15:50
between California and other places,
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starp Kaliforniju un citām vietām,
15:53
and that contrast, say, is in climate.
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šis kontrasts ir, piemēram, klimatā.
15:55
Well, it turns out that climate
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Izrādās, ka
15:57
is not very important to the experiencing self
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klimats „piedzīvojošajam es” nav pārāk svarīgs,
16:00
and it's not even very important to the reflective self
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tas nav pat tik būtisks arī „atminošajam es”,
16:03
that decides how happy people are.
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kurš lemj par to, cik cilvēki ir laimīgi.
16:06
But now, because the reflective self is in charge,
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Nu tādēļ, ka „atminošais es” ir pie varas,
16:10
you may end up -- some people may end up
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jums var gadīties, dažiem cilvēkiem var gadīties
16:12
moving to California.
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pārvākties uz Kaliforniju.
16:14
And it's sort of interesting to trace what is going to happen
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Ir diezgan interesanti pasekot, kas notiek ar cilvēkiem,
16:17
to people who move to California in the hope of getting happier.
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kuri pārvācās uz Kaliforniju cerībā kļūt laimīgāki.
16:20
Well, their experiencing self
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Ziniet, „piedzīvojošais es”
16:22
is not going to get happier.
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laimīgāks nekļūs.
16:24
We know that.
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Mēs to zinām.
16:27
But one thing will happen: They will think they are happier,
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Viena lieta gan notiks: Viņiem šķitīs, ka ir laimīgāki,
16:30
because, when they think about it,
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jo, par to domājot,
16:34
they'll be reminded of how horrible the weather was in Ohio,
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viņi sev atgādinās cik briesmīgi laikapstākļi bija Ohaio.
16:38
and they will feel they made the right decision.
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un viņi jutīsies kā pieņēmuši pareizo lēmumu.
16:41
It is very difficult
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Domāt skaidri
16:43
to think straight about well-being,
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par labsajūtu ir ļoti sarežģīti.
16:45
and I hope I have given you a sense
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Ceru, ka esmu jums devis nojausmu,
16:48
of how difficult it is.
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par to cik tas ir sarežģīti.
16:50
Thank you.
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Paldies.
16:52
(Applause)
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(Aplausi)
16:55
Chris Anderson: Thank you. I've got a question for you.
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Kriss Anderons: Paldies. Man jums ir jautājums.
16:59
Thank you so much.
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Liels paldies.
17:01
Now, when we were on the phone a few weeks ago,
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Kad pirms dažām nedēļām runājām pa tālruni,
17:05
you mentioned to me that there was quite an interesting result
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jūs minējāt kādu interesantu rezultātu
17:08
came out of that Gallup survey.
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no jūsu minētās Gallup aptaujas.
17:10
Is that something you can share
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Vai tas ir kas tāds ar ko varat padalīties,
17:12
since you do have a few moments left now?
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tā kā jums vēl ir atlikuši daži mirkļi uz skatuves?
17:14
Daniel Kahneman: Sure.
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Daniels Kahnemans: Protams.
17:16
I think the most interesting result that we found in the Gallup survey
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Domāju, visinteresantākais aptaujas atradums
17:19
is a number, which we absolutely did not expect to find.
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ir skaitlis, kuru mēs pilnībā negaidījām.
17:22
We found that with respect to the happiness
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Noskaidrojām, ka attiecībā uz
17:24
of the experiencing self.
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„piedzīvojošā es” labsajūtu.
17:27
When we looked at how feelings,
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Kad aplūkojām kā sajūtas
17:32
vary with income.
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mainās līdz ar ienākumiem.
17:34
And it turns out that, below an income
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Izrādās, ka ar ienākumiem zem
17:37
of 60,000 dollars a year, for Americans --
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60 000 dolāru gadā, amerikāņi,
17:40
and that's a very large sample of Americans, like 600,000,
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aptaujā piedalījās aptuveni 600 000 amerikāņu,
17:43
so it's a large representative sample --
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tātad tas ir reprezentatīvs paraugs,
17:45
below an income of 600,000 dollars a year...
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pelnot zem 600 000 dolāru gadā...
17:47
CA: 60,000.
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CA: 60 000.
17:49
DK: 60,000.
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DK: 60 000.
17:51
(Laughter)
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(Smiekli)
17:53
60,000 dollars a year, people are unhappy,
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60 000 dolāru gadā, cilvēki ir nelaimīgi,
17:57
and they get progressively unhappier the poorer they get.
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un kļūst arvien nelaimīgāki, ja pelna mazāk.
18:00
Above that, we get an absolutely flat line.
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Virs tā, mums ir pilnīgi plakana līnija.
18:03
I mean I've rarely seen lines so flat.
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Reti esmu redzējis tik plakanas līnijas.
18:06
Clearly, what is happening is
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Acīmredzot, ar naudu
18:08
money does not buy you experiential happiness,
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nevar nopirkt piedzīvoto prieku,
18:11
but lack of money certainly buys you misery,
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taču naudas trūkums noteikti sagādā skumjas,
18:14
and we can measure that misery
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un skumjas mēs ļoti, ļoti skaidri
18:16
very, very clearly.
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varam izmērīt.
18:18
In terms of the other self, the remembering self,
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No „atminošā es” viedokļa,
18:21
you get a different story.
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ir cits stāsts.
18:23
The more money you earn, the more satisfied you are.
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Jo vairāk pelnāt, jo apmierinātāks esat.
18:26
That does not hold for emotions.
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Ne tā kā tas notiek ar emocijām.
18:28
CA: But Danny, the whole American endeavor is about
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CA: Bet Denij, visa amerikāņu dzīve grozās ap
18:31
life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.
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dzīvi, brīvību, laimes meklēšanu.
18:34
If people took seriously that finding,
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Ja cilvēki ņemtu vērā šo atradumu,
18:38
I mean, it seems to turn upside down
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man izskatās, tas apgriež kājām gaisā
18:41
everything we believe about, like for example,
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visu, ko domājam, piemēram, par
18:43
taxation policy and so forth.
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nodokļu pulitiku un tā tālāk.
18:45
Is there any chance that politicians, that the country generally,
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Vai ir iespējams, ka politiķi, valsts kopumā,
18:48
would take a finding like that seriously
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šādu atradumu uztvers nopietni un
18:51
and run public policy based on it?
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uz tā balstoties veidos sabiedrisko politiku?
18:53
DK: You know I think that there is recognition
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DK: Ziniet, manuprāt laimes pētīšana
18:55
of the role of happiness research in public policy.
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sabiedrībā tiek atzīta par arvien svarīgāku.
18:58
The recognition is going to be slow in the United States,
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Amerikā tā atzīšana notiks lēnām,
19:00
no question about that,
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bez šaubām,
19:02
but in the U.K., it is happening,
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taču tas notiek Apvienotajā Karalistē,
19:04
and in other countries it is happening.
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un notiek arī citās valstīs.
19:06
People are recognizing that they ought
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Cilvēki sāk atzīt, ka viņiem
19:09
to be thinking of happiness
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jādomā par laimi,
19:11
when they think of public policy.
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domājot par sabiedrisko politiku.
19:13
It's going to take a while,
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Paies kāds laiciņš,
19:15
and people are going to debate
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cilvēki debatēs
19:18
whether they want to study experience happiness,
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par to, vai vēlas pētīt piedzīvoto laimi
19:20
or whether they want to study life evaluation,
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vai apmierinātību ar dzīvi,
19:22
so we need to have that debate fairly soon.
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mums šī debate ir vajadzīga pavisam drīz.
19:25
How to enhance happiness
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Laimes vairošanu var
19:27
goes very different ways depending on how you think,
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veikt ļoti dažādi, atšķirībā no tā, kā uz to skatās
19:30
and whether you think of the remembering self
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un skatoties vai domājat, par „atminošo es”
19:32
or you think of the experiencing self.
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vai „piedzīvojošo es”.
19:34
This is going to influence policy, I think, in years to come.
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Tas, manuprāt, tuvākajos gados ietekmēs politiku.
19:37
In the United States, efforts are being made
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Amerikā ir centieni izmērīt
19:40
to measure the experience happiness of the population.
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tās iedzīvotāju piedzīvoto laimi.
19:43
This is going to be, I think, within the next decade or two,
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Tuvākajā desmitgadē vai divās tas kļūs par
19:46
part of national statistics.
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nacionālās statistikas daļu.
19:48
CA: Well, it seems to me that this issue will -- or at least should be --
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CA: Šķiet, tas būs, vai vismaz tam vajadzētu būt,
19:52
the most interesting policy discussion to track
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interesantākajai politikas diskusijai, kurai sekot
19:54
over the next few years.
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nākamo gadu laikā.
19:56
Thank you so much for inventing behavioral economics.
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Liels paldies par uzvedības ekonomikas izgudrošanu.
19:58
Thank you, Danny Kahneman.
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Paldies jums, Denij Kahneman.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Daniel Kahneman - Behavioral economics founderWidely regarded as the world's most influential living psychologist, Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel in Economics for his pioneering work in behavioral economics -- exploring the irrational ways we make decisions about risk.
Why you should listen
Daniel Kahneman is an eminence grise for the Freakonomics crowd. In the mid-1970s, with his collaborator Amos Tversky, he was among the first academics to pick apart exactly why we make "wrong" decisions. In their 1979 paper on prospect theory, Kahneman and Tversky examined a simple problem of economic risk. And rather than stating the optimal, rational answer, as an economist of the time might have, they quantified how most real people, consistently, make a less-rational choice. Their work treated economics not as a perfect or self-correcting machine, but as a system prey to quirks of human perception. The field of behavioral economics was born.
Kahneman was awarded the Nobel Memorial prize in 2002 for his work with Tversky, who died before the award was bestowed. In a lovely passage in his Nobel biography, Kahneman looks back on his deep collaboration with Tversky and calls for a new form of academic cooperation, marked not by turf battles but by "adversarial collaboration," a good-faith effort by unlike minds to conduct joint research, critiquing each other in the service of an ideal of truth to which both can contribute.
Daniel Kahneman | Speaker | TED.com