TEDSalon NY2013
Esther Perel: The secret to desire in a long-term relationship
Ester Perel (Esther Perel): Tajna žudnje u dugim vezama
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Često u dugim vezama od voljenih očekujemo da budu kako erotski partneri tako i najbolji prijatelji. Međutim, Ester Perel objašnjava da se dobar i posvećen seks zasniva na dve suprotstavljene potrebe: našoj potrebi za sigurnošću i potrebi za novinom. Kako, dakle, održati žudnju? Rečita i oštroumna Ester Perel upoznaje nas sa tajnama erotske inteligencije.
Esther Perel - Relationship therapist
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio
Psychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:17
So, why does good sex so often fade,
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Zašto dobar seks
tako često izbledi,
tako često izbledi,
00:20
even for couples who continue to love each other as much as ever?
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čak i kod parova
koji se vole kao i ranije?
koji se vole kao i ranije?
00:25
And why does good intimacy not guarantee good sex,
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I zašto dobra intima
ne garantuje dobar seks,
ne garantuje dobar seks,
00:28
contrary to popular belief?
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kako se često pogrešno veruje?
00:31
Or, the next question would be,
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Potom se možemo zapitati,
00:33
can we want what we already have?
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možemo li da želimo
ono što već imamo?
ono što već imamo?
00:35
That's the million-dollar question, right?
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To je pitanje zlata vredno, zar ne?
00:38
And why is the forbidden so erotic?
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I zašto je zabranjeno tako erotično?
00:40
What is it about transgression that makes desire so potent?
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Zbog čega prestupi
toliko pojačavaju žudnju?
toliko pojačavaju žudnju?
00:44
And why does sex make babies,
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I zašto od seksa nastaju bebe,
00:46
and babies spell erotic disaster in couples?
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a bebe izazivaju
erotsku katastrofu kod parova?
erotsku katastrofu kod parova?
00:50
It's kind of the fatal erotic blow, isn't it?
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Kao neki fatalni
erotski udarac, zar ne?
erotski udarac, zar ne?
00:52
And when you love, how does it feel?
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A kada volite,
kakav je to osećaj?
kakav je to osećaj?
00:55
And when you desire, how is it different?
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A kada žudite,
koliko je to drugačije?
koliko je to drugačije?
00:58
These are some of the questions
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To su neka od pitanja
01:00
that are at the center of my exploration
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u središtu mog istraživanja
01:02
on the nature of erotic desire
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o prirodi erotske žudnje
01:05
and its concomitant dilemmas in modern love.
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i dilemama u vezi sa time
u savremenoj ljubavi.
u savremenoj ljubavi.
01:09
So I travel the globe,
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Putujem svetom
01:11
and what I'm noticing is that
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i primećujem da
01:13
everywhere where romanticism has entered,
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tamo gde je stupila romantika
01:16
there seems to be a crisis of desire.
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izgleda da postoji kriza žudnje.
01:19
A crisis of desire, as in owning the wanting --
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Kriza žudnje, u smislu
posedovanja onoga što želimo -
posedovanja onoga što želimo -
01:24
desire as an expression of our individuality,
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žudnje kao izraza individualnosti,
01:27
of our free choice, of our preferences, of our identity --
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našeg slobodnog izbora,
našeg identiteta -
našeg identiteta -
01:30
desire that has become a central concept
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žudnje koja je postala
središnji koncept
središnji koncept
01:34
as part of modern love and individualistic societies.
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kao deo savremene ljubavi i
individualističkih društava.
individualističkih društava.
01:37
You know, this is the first time in the history of humankind
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Znate, ovo je prvi put
u istoriji čovečanstva
u istoriji čovečanstva
01:40
where we are trying to experience sexuality in the long term,
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da pokušavamo da dugoročno
doživimo seksualnost,
doživimo seksualnost,
01:46
not because we want 14 children,
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ne zato što želimo četrnaestoro dece,
01:50
for which we need to have even more because many of them won't make it,
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a treba nam ih još,
jer mnoga neće preživeti
jer mnoga neće preživeti
01:54
and not because it is exclusively a woman's marital duty.
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i ne zato što je to
isključivo bračna dužnost žene.
isključivo bračna dužnost žene.
01:59
This is the first time that we want sex over time
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Prvi put želimo seks na duže
02:03
about pleasure and connection that is rooted in desire.
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zbog zadovoljstva i povezanosti
čiji je koren u žudnji.
čiji je koren u žudnji.
02:08
So what sustains desire, and why is it so difficult?
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Šta, dakle, održava žudnju
i zašto je to tako teško?
i zašto je to tako teško?
02:11
And at the heart of sustaining desire in a committed relationship,
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Mislim da je u srcu održanja
žudnje u posvećenoj vezi
žudnje u posvećenoj vezi
02:16
I think is the reconciliation of two fundamental human needs.
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pomirenje dve osnovne ljudske potrebe.
02:22
On the one hand, our need for security, for predictability,
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Sa jedne strane, tu je potreba
za sigurnošću, predvidljivošću,
za sigurnošću, predvidljivošću,
02:27
for safety, for dependability, for reliability, for permanence --
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za bezbednošću, za oslanjanjem na druge,
za pouzdanošću, stalnošću -
za pouzdanošću, stalnošću -
02:35
all these anchoring, grounding experiences of our lives
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za svim tim osnovnim, temeljnim
iskustvima u našim životima,
iskustvima u našim životima,
02:38
that we call home.
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koje nazivamo domom.
02:39
But we also have an equally strong need -- men and women --
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Ali imamo i podjednako jaku potrebu -
i žene i muškarci -
i žene i muškarci -
02:44
for adventure, for novelty, for mystery, for risk, for danger,
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za avanturom, novinom, misterijom,
za rizikom, za opasnošću,
za rizikom, za opasnošću,
02:49
for the unknown, for the unexpected, surprise --
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za nepoznatim,
neočekivanim, iznenađujućim,
neočekivanim, iznenađujućim,
02:53
you get the gist -- for journey, for travel.
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shvatili ste - za putovanjem, za kretanjem.
02:57
So reconciling our need for security
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Pomiriti našu potrebu
za sigurnošću
za sigurnošću
02:59
and our need for adventure into one relationship,
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i potrebu za avanturom
u jednoj vezi,
u jednoj vezi,
03:02
or what we today like to call a passionate marriage,
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ili kako to danas zovemo,
u "strastvenom braku",
u "strastvenom braku",
03:05
used to be a contradiction in terms.
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nekada se od same definicije
činilo protivurečnim.
činilo protivurečnim.
03:07
Marriage was an economic institution
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Brak je bio ekonomska institucija
03:10
in which you were given a partnership for life
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u kojoj vam je dato
doživotno partnerstvo
doživotno partnerstvo
03:14
in terms of children and social status
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u vidu dece i društvenog položaja,
03:16
and succession and companionship.
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nasledstva i sadrugarstva.
03:19
But now we want our partner to still give us all these things,
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Ali sada od partnera tražimo sve ovo,
03:23
but in addition I want you to be my best friend
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ali još hoću i da mi budeš najbolji prijatelj
03:26
and my trusted confidant and my passionate lover to boot,
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i verni pouzdanik
i strastveni ljubavnik
i strastveni ljubavnik
03:29
and we live twice as long.
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i uz sve to,
mi živimo duplo duže.
mi živimo duplo duže.
03:30
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
03:33
So we come to one person, and we basically are asking them
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Prilazimo jednoj osobi i tražimo
03:37
to give us what once an entire village used to provide:
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da nam obezbedi ono što je
nekad davalo čitavo selo:
nekad davalo čitavo selo:
03:41
Give me belonging, give me identity, give me continuity,
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daj mi pripadnost, daj mi identitet,
daj mi stalnost,
daj mi stalnost,
03:45
but give me transcendence and mystery and awe all in one.
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ali mi daj i uzvišenost i misteriju i
začudnost nad životom,
začudnost nad životom,
03:49
Give me comfort, give me edge.
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Daj mi utehu, daj mi uzbuđenje.
03:51
Give me novelty, give me familiarity.
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Daj mi novinu, daj mi poznato.
03:52
Give me predictability, give me surprise.
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Daj mi predvidljivost, daj mi iznenađenje.
03:55
And we think it's a given, and toys and lingerie are going to save us with that.
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I svi mislimo da je to dato,
da će nas igračke i veš spasiti.
da će nas igračke i veš spasiti.
03:59
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
04:04
So now we get to the existential reality of the story, right?
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Sad dolazimo do egzistencijalne
stvarnosti priče, zar ne?
stvarnosti priče, zar ne?
04:08
Because I think, in some way -- and I'll come back to that --
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Jer nekako mislim -
i vratiću se na to -
i vratiću se na to -
04:14
but the crisis of desire is often a crisis of the imagination.
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da je kriza žudnje
često kriza mašte.
često kriza mašte.
04:18
So why does good sex so often fade?
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Dakle, zašto dobar seks
tako često izbledi?
tako često izbledi?
04:21
What is the relationship between love and desire?
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Kakva je veza između ljubavi i žudnje?
04:24
How do they relate, and how do they conflict?
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U kakvom su odnosu
i kako se sukobljavaju?
i kako se sukobljavaju?
04:27
Because therein lies the mystery of eroticism.
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U tome je tajna erotičnosti.
04:30
So if there is a verb, for me, that comes with love, it's "to have."
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Ako postoji glagol koji ide uz ljubav,
onda je to za mene "imati".
onda je to za mene "imati".
04:34
And if there is a verb that comes with desire, it is "to want."
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Ako postoji glagol koji ide uz žudnju,
onda je to "želeti".
onda je to "želeti".
04:39
In love, we want to have, we want to know the beloved.
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U ljubavi želimo da imamo,
želimo da znamo voljenu osobu.
želimo da znamo voljenu osobu.
04:42
We want to minimize the distance. We want to contract that gap.
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Zelimo da smanjimo razdaljinu.
Želimo da sažmemo taj jaz.
Želimo da sažmemo taj jaz.
04:47
We want to neutralize the tensions. We want closeness.
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Želimo da uklonimo napetost.
Želimo bliskost.
Želimo bliskost.
04:51
But in desire, we tend to not really want to go back to the places we've already gone.
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Ali u žudnji uglavnom ne želimo
da se vraćamo na mesta gde smo već bili.
da se vraćamo na mesta gde smo već bili.
04:56
Forgone conclusion does not keep our interest.
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Minula iskustva nam ne drže pažnju.
05:00
In desire, we want an Other, somebody on the other side that we can go visit,
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U žudnji želimo Drugog, nekog
da posećujemo sa druge strane,
da posećujemo sa druge strane,
05:05
that we can go spend some time with,
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sa kim možemo provesti neko vreme,
05:07
that we can go see what goes on in their red light district.
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u čiju ulicu crvenih fenjera
možemo da svratimo da vidimo čega ima.
možemo da svratimo da vidimo čega ima.
05:11
In desire, we want a bridge to cross.
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U žudnji želimo most
koji treba da pređemo.
koji treba da pređemo.
05:15
Or in other words, I sometimes say, fire needs air.
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Odnosno, kako to nekad kažem,
vatri je potreban vazduh.
vatri je potreban vazduh.
05:18
Desire needs space.
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Žudnji je potreban prostor.
05:20
And when it's said like that, it's often quite abstract.
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Kad se to ovako sroči
često zvuči veoma apstraktno.
često zvuči veoma apstraktno.
05:24
But then I took a question with me.
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Ali onda sam to pitanje
poslednjih godina
poslednjih godina
05:25
And I've gone to more than 20 countries in the last few years
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postavila u preko 20 zemalja
05:28
with "Mating in Captivity," and I asked people,
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pišući "Sparivanje u zatočeništvu"
i pitala ljude:
i pitala ljude:
05:31
when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner?
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"U kojim situacijama vas partner
najviše privlači?"
najviše privlači?"
05:34
Not attracted sexually, per se, but most drawn.
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Ne nužno seksualno,
već najviše privlači.
već najviše privlači.
05:37
And across culture, across religion, and across gender --
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U različitim kulturama, različitim religijama
i kod različitih polova -
i kod različitih polova -
05:41
except for one -- there are a few answers that just keep coming back.
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osim jedne stvari - nekoliko je odgovora
koji se stalno ponavljaju.
koji se stalno ponavljaju.
05:46
So the first group is: I am most drawn to my partner
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U prvoj gupi su: "partner me
najviše privlači
najviše privlači
05:51
when she is away, when we are apart, when we reunite.
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kada je odsutan, kad smo razdvojeni,
kad se opet sastanemo."
kad se opet sastanemo."
05:57
Basically, when I get back in touch
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U suštini, kada se pokrene
06:01
with my ability to imagine myself with my partner,
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moja sposobnost da zamislim sebe
pored partnera,
pored partnera,
06:05
when my imagination comes back in the picture,
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kada moja mašta opet
postane deo slike
postane deo slike
06:07
and when I can root it in absence and in longing,
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i kada je mogu zasnovati na
odsustvu i čežnji,
odsustvu i čežnji,
06:12
which is a major component of desire.
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bitnim delovima žudnje.
06:15
But then the second group is even more interesting:
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Druga grupa je još interesantnija:
06:18
I am most drawn to my partner
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"partner me najviše privlači
06:20
when I see him in the studio, when she is onstage,
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kad ga vidim u ateljeu,
kad je ona na pozornici,
kad je ona na pozornici,
06:24
when he is in his element, when she's doing something she's passionate about,
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kad je on u svom elementu,
kad ona nešto radi sa strašću,
kad ona nešto radi sa strašću,
06:28
when I see him at a party and other people are really drawn to him,
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kad ga vidim na zabavi
i ostali ga primećuju,
i ostali ga primećuju,
06:32
when I see her hold court.
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kad je vidim da privlači pažnju."
06:34
Basically, when I look at my partner radiant and confident,
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Kad vidim partnera ozarenog
i samopouzdanog,
i samopouzdanog,
06:38
probably the biggest turn-on across the board.
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to je verovatno stvar koja
najviše može da me uzbudi.
najviše može da me uzbudi.
06:42
Radiant, as in self-sustaining.
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Kada zrači, jer je samodovoljan.
06:44
I look at this person -- by the way, in desire
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Gledam ovu osobu -
uzgred, žudnja nam nije
uzgred, žudnja nam nije
06:47
people rarely talk about it, when we are blended into one,
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na vidiku kad smo
sjedinjeni u jedno,
sjedinjeni u jedno,
06:50
five centimeters from each other. I don't know in inches how much that is.
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udaljeni na pet centimetara.
Ne znam koliko je to u inčima.
Ne znam koliko je to u inčima.
06:53
But it's also not when the other person is that far apart
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Žudnja nije na vidiku ni
kad su ljudi razvojeni
kad su ljudi razvojeni
06:57
that you no longer see them.
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toliko da se više ni ne vide.
06:58
It's when I'm looking at my partner from a comfortable distance,
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Žudnja je kad posmatram partnera
sa prijatne razdaljine,
sa prijatne razdaljine,
07:02
where this person that is already so familiar, so known,
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kada ta osoba toliko poznata,
kad toliko znate o njoj,
kad toliko znate o njoj,
07:07
is momentarily once again somewhat mysterious, somewhat elusive.
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u tom trenutku opet postane nešto
misteriozno, neuhvatljivo.
misteriozno, neuhvatljivo.
07:12
And in this space between me and the other lies the erotic élan,
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U tom prostoru između mene i drugoga
krije se erotski naboj,
krije se erotski naboj,
07:16
lies that movement toward the other.
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nalazi se kretnja ka drugome.
07:19
Because sometimes, as Proust says,
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Jer nekada, kao što kaže Prust,
07:21
mystery is not about traveling to new places,
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misterija nije u putovanju
na nova mesta,
na nova mesta,
07:24
but it's about looking with new eyes.
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već u posmatranju novim očima.
07:26
And so, when I see my partner on his own or her own,
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Stoga, kad vidim partnera
samog ili samu,
samog ili samu,
07:30
doing something in which they are enveloped,
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kako su zaokupljeni nečim,
07:32
I look at this person and I momentarily get a shift in perception,
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gledam tu osobu i trenutno
doživim izmenu percepcije
doživim izmenu percepcije
07:37
and I stay open to the mysteries that are living right next to me.
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i spremna sam na misterije koje
žive tik do mene.
žive tik do mene.
07:42
And then, more importantly, in this description about the other
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I još važnije, u tom opisu drugoga
07:47
or myself -- it's the same -- what is most interesting
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ili sebe - isto je - najzanimljivije je
07:51
is that there is no neediness in desire.
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da u žudnji nema potrebe.
07:53
Nobody needs anybody.
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Niko nikom ne treba.
07:55
There is no caretaking in desire.
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U žudnji nema
preuzimanja brige.
preuzimanja brige.
07:58
Caretaking is mightily loving. It's a powerful anti-aphrodisiac.
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Preuzimane brige znači veliku ljubav.
To je moćan anti-afrodizijak.
To je moćan anti-afrodizijak.
08:03
I have yet to see somebody who is so turned on
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Da mi je videti kako
nekog uzbuđuje osoba
nekog uzbuđuje osoba
08:05
by somebody who needs them.
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kojoj je ona potrebna.
08:07
Wanting them is one thing. Needing them is a shutdown,
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Želja je jedno.
Potreba je hladan tuš
Potreba je hladan tuš
08:10
and women have known that forever,
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i žene su to oduvek znale,
08:12
because anything that will bring up parenthood
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jer sve što podseća na roditeljstvo
08:15
will usually decrease the erotic charge.
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obično suzbija erotski naboj.
08:18
For good reasons, right?
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Nije bez razloga, zar ne?
08:20
And then the third group of answers usually would be
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U trećoj grupi odgovora občno su:
08:24
when I'm surprised, when we laugh together,
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"kad sam iznenađen,
kad se smejemo zajedno,"
kad se smejemo zajedno,"
08:28
as somebody said to me in the office today,
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ili kao što mi rekoše u kancelariji,
08:30
when he's in his tux, so I said, you know,
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"kad je u odelu", a ja sam dodala:
08:32
it's either the tux or the cowboy boots.
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"Znate ili je u pitanju smoking
ili kaubojske čizme."
ili kaubojske čizme."
08:35
But basically it's when there is novelty.
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U osnovi se radi o postojanju novine.
08:39
But novelty isn't about new positions. It isn't a repertoire of techniques.
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Ali novina nisu nove poze.
Nije u pitanju repertoar tehnika.
Nije u pitanju repertoar tehnika.
08:43
Novelty is, what parts of you do you bring out?
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Novina se svodi na pitanje
"Koji deo sebe ispoljavate?"
"Koji deo sebe ispoljavate?"
08:47
What parts of you are just being seen?
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"Koji deo vas drugi upravo vide?"
08:50
Because in some way one could say
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Jer, može se reći
08:52
sex isn't something you do, eh?
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da seks nije nešto što se radi, zar ne?
08:54
Sex is a place you go. It's a space you enter
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Seks je mesto koje posećujete.
Prostor u koji ulazite
Prostor u koji ulazite
08:57
inside yourself and with another, or others.
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unutar sebe i sa nekim drugim,
ili drugima.
ili drugima.
09:00
So where do you go in sex?
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Dakle, gde vi idete u seksu?
09:03
What parts of you do you connect to?
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Sa kojim delovima sebe se povezujete?
09:05
What do you seek to express there?
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Šta tamo želite da iskažete?
09:07
Is it a place for transcendence and spiritual union?
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Da li je to mesto za uzvišenost
i duhovno jedinstvo?
i duhovno jedinstvo?
09:10
Is it a place for naughtiness and is it a place to be safely aggressive?
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Mesto za nestašluk
ili bezbednu agresivnost?
ili bezbednu agresivnost?
09:15
Is it a place where you can finally surrender
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Mesto gde se konačno
možete predati
možete predati
09:17
and not have to take responsibility for everything?
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bez potrebe da budete
odgovorni za sve?
odgovorni za sve?
09:20
Is it a place where you can express your infantile wishes?
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Mesto gde iskazujete detinje želje?
09:23
What comes out there? It's a language.
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Šta proizlazi odatle?
To je jedan jezik.
To je jedan jezik.
09:25
It isn't just a behavior.
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Ne samo ponašanje.
09:28
And it's the poetic of that language that I'm interested in,
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Mene zanima upravo poetika tog jezika
09:31
which is why I began to explore this concept of erotic intelligence.
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i zato sam počela da istražujem
koncept erotske inteligencije.
koncept erotske inteligencije.
09:35
You know, animals have sex.
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Znate, životinje imaju seks.
09:37
It's the pivot, it's biology, it's the natural instinct.
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To je osnova, biologija,
prirodni instinkt.
prirodni instinkt.
09:40
We are the only ones who have an erotic life,
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Mi jedini imamo erotski život,
09:43
which means that it's sexuality transformed by the human imagination.
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život koji je seksualno preobražen
ljudskom maštom.
ljudskom maštom.
09:49
We are the only ones who can make love for hours,
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Mi smo jedini koji možemo
da vodimo ljubav satima,
da vodimo ljubav satima,
09:53
have a blissful time, multiple orgasms,
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da božanstveno provedemo vreme,
imamo višestruke orgazme,
imamo višestruke orgazme,
09:56
and touch nobody, just because we can imagine it.
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a da nikoga ne dodirnemo,
već samo putem mašte.
već samo putem mašte.
10:00
We can hint at it. We don't even have to do it.
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Možemo to samo nagovestiti.
Čak ne moramo ni da to da uradimo.
Čak ne moramo ni da to da uradimo.
10:03
We can experience that powerful thing called anticipation,
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Možemo doživeti tu moćnu
stvar zvanu iščekivanje,
stvar zvanu iščekivanje,
10:06
which is a mortar to desire,
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koje je vezivno tkivo žudnje,
10:09
the ability to imagine it, as if it's happening,
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sposobnost da zamišljamo,
kao da se to dešava,
kao da se to dešava,
10:12
to experience it as if it's happening, while nothing is happening
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iskusimo to kao da se dešava,
iako se ništa ne dešava,
iako se ništa ne dešava,
10:16
and everything is happening at the same time.
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a istovremeno se sve dešava.
10:19
So when I began to think about eroticism,
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Kada sam počela da razmišljam o erotičnosti,
10:21
I began to think about the poetics of sex,
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počela sam da razmišljam o poetici seksa
10:25
and if I look at it as an intelligence,
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i ako je posmatram kao inteligenciju,
10:27
then it's something that you cultivate.
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onda je ona nešto što razvijamo.
10:29
What are the ingredients? Imagination, playfulness,
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Od čega se ona sastoji?
Od mašte, razigranosti,
Od mašte, razigranosti,
10:34
novelty, curiosity, mystery.
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novine, znatiželje, misterije.
10:37
But the central agent is really that piece called the imagination.
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Ali, glavni sastojak je upravo mašta.
10:42
But more importantly, for me to begin to understand
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Da bih otkrila
10:45
who are the couples who have an erotic spark,
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ko su parovi sa erotskom iskrom,
10:48
what sustains desire, I had to go back
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šta održava žudnju,
morala sam da se vratim
morala sam da se vratim
10:50
to the original definition of eroticism,
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početnoj definiciji erotičnosti,
10:53
the mystical definition, and I went through it
190
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mističnoj definiciji
i istražila sam je
i istražila sam je
10:56
through a bifurcation by looking actually at trauma,
191
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posmatrajući grupe ljudi
koji su preživeli traumu,
koji su preživeli traumu,
10:59
which is the other side, and I looked at it
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koja je druga krajnost,
i posmatrala sam
i posmatrala sam
11:02
looking at the community that I had grown up in,
193
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zajednicu u kojoj sam odrasla,
11:04
which was a community in Belgium, all Holocaust survivors,
194
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koja je zajednica ljudi koji su
preživeli holokaust u Belgiji
preživeli holokaust u Belgiji
11:08
and in my community there were two groups:
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i gde su postojale dve grupe:
11:11
those who didn't die, and those who came back to life.
196
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oni koji nisu umrli
i oni koji su se vratili u život.
i oni koji su se vratili u život.
11:15
And those who didn't die lived often very tethered to the ground,
197
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A oni koji nisu umrli često su
živeli skoro prikovani za tlo
živeli skoro prikovani za tlo
11:18
could not experience pleasure, could not trust,
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i nisu mogli da iskuse zadovoljsvo,
nisu imali poverenja,
nisu imali poverenja,
11:22
because when you're vigilant, worried, anxious,
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jer kada ste na oprezu,
zabrinuti, nervozni
zabrinuti, nervozni
11:24
and insecure, you can't lift your head
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2629
i nesigurni, ne možete da podignete glavu
11:27
to go and take off in space and be playful and safe and imaginative.
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i otisnete se u prostor,
budete razigrani, bezbedni i maštoviti.
budete razigrani, bezbedni i maštoviti.
11:32
Those who came back to life were those
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Oni koji su se vratili u život bili su oni
11:35
who understood the erotic as an antidote to death.
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koji su erotiku shvatali kao
potivotrov za smrt.
potivotrov za smrt.
11:38
They knew how to keep themselves alive.
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Znali su kako da ostanu živi.
11:41
And when I began to listen to the sexlessness of the couples that I work with,
205
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U razgovoru o odsustvu seksa
sa parovima sa kojima radim,
sa parovima sa kojima radim,
11:45
I sometimes would hear people say, "I want more sex,"
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ponekad bih čula rečenicu:
"Hoću više seksa",
"Hoću više seksa",
11:48
but generally people want better sex,
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ali ljudi uopšteno žele bolji seks,
11:51
and better is to reconnect with that quality of aliveness,
208
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3254
a "bolje" znači nanovo se povezati
sa tim svojstvom životnosti,
sa tim svojstvom životnosti,
11:54
of vibrancy, of renewal, of vitality, of eros, of energy
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energičnosti, oživljenosti, vitalnosti,
erosa, energije,
erosa, energije,
11:58
that sex used to afford them, or that they've hoped
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2574
koje im je seks nekad pružao,
ili za koje su se nadali
ili za koje su se nadali
12:01
it would afford them.
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da će im pružiti.
12:03
And so I began to ask a different question.
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Stoga sam počela da postavljam
jedno drugo pitanje.
jedno drugo pitanje.
12:06
"I shut myself off when ..." began to be the question.
213
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4847
Pitanje se počinjalo sa
"Gasim se kad ... "
"Gasim se kad ... "
12:11
"I turn off my desires when ..." which is not the same question as,
214
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3280
"Moja žudnja nestaje kad ...",
što nije isto pitanje kao
što nije isto pitanje kao
12:14
"What turns me off is ..." and "You turn me off when ..."
215
718571
3946
"Odbija me kad..." ili
"Odbijaš me kad ..."
"Odbijaš me kad ..."
12:18
And people began to say, "I turn myself off when
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3223
I ljudi su ppočeli da odgovaraju:
"Gasim se kada
"Gasim se kada
12:21
I feel dead inside, when I don't like my body,
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2889
se osećam mrtvo iznutra,
kad ne volim svoje telo,
kad ne volim svoje telo,
12:24
when I feel old, when I haven't had time for myself,
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3224
kad se osećam staro,
kad nemam vremena za sebe,
kad nemam vremena za sebe,
12:27
when I haven't had a chance to even check in with you,
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2624
kad čak nemam ni priliku da
komuniciram sa tobom,
komuniciram sa tobom,
12:30
when I don't perform well at work,
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1561
kada mi posao ide loše,
12:31
when I feel low self esteem, when I don't have a sense of self-worth,
221
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3195
kada mi je samopouzdanje nisko,
kada se osećam kao da ne vredim,
kada se osećam kao da ne vredim,
12:35
when I don't feel like I have a right to want, to take,
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3228
kad ne osećam da imam pravo da želim,
da uzimam,
da uzimam,
12:38
to receive pleasure."
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2440
da primam zadovoljstvo."
12:40
And then I began to ask the reverse question.
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Onda sam obrnula pitanje.
12:43
"I turn myself on when ..." Because most of the time,
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"Uzbudim se kada ..."
Pošto ljudi uglavnom
Pošto ljudi uglavnom
12:45
people like to ask the question, "You turn me on,
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750037
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vole da se govore:
"Ti me uzbuđuješ,
"Ti me uzbuđuješ,
12:48
what turns me on," and I'm out of the question. You know?
227
752895
3577
šta me uzbuđuje", a "ja" je tada
van jednačine. Razumete?
van jednačine. Razumete?
12:52
Now, if you are dead inside, the other person can do a lot of things for Valentine's.
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4310
Ako ste mrtvi iznutra, ogromna
pažnja druge osobe za Dan zaljubljenih
pažnja druge osobe za Dan zaljubljenih
12:56
It won't make a dent. There is nobody at the reception desk.
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neće vam nimalo značiti.
Nema nikog kod kuće.
Nema nikog kod kuće.
12:59
(Laughter)
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1493
(Smeh)
13:00
So I turn myself on when,
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2402
Dakle: "Uzbuđujem se kada
13:03
I turn my desires, I wake up when ...
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4011
se pokrenu moje žudnje"
"Probudim se kada ..."
"Probudim se kada ..."
13:07
Now, in this paradox between love and desire,
233
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4618
U ovom paradoksu između
ljubavi i žudnje,
ljubavi i žudnje,
13:12
what seems to be so puzzling is that the very ingredients
234
776106
3881
čini se da najviše zbunjuje to
što isti oni sastojci
što isti oni sastojci
13:15
that nurture love -- mutuality, reciprocity,
235
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4151
koji hrane ljubav -
zajedništvo, uzajamnost,
zajedništvo, uzajamnost,
13:20
protection, worry, responsibility for the other --
236
784138
4032
zaštita, briga,
odgovornost za drugoga -
odgovornost za drugoga -
13:24
are sometimes the very ingredients that stifle desire.
237
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4123
baš ti sastojci nekada
guše žudnju.
guše žudnju.
13:28
Because desire comes with a host of feelings
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4229
Jer žudnja dolazi
uz pregršt osećanja
uz pregršt osećanja
13:32
that are not always such favorites of love:
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3977
koje ljubav ne voli baš uvek:
13:36
jealousy, possessiveness, aggression, power, dominance,
240
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4129
ljubomora, posesivnost, agresija,
moć, dominacija,
moć, dominacija,
13:40
naughtiness, mischief.
241
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1788
nevaljalost, vragolanstvo.
13:42
Basically most of us will get turned on at night
242
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3287
Većinu nas noću uzbuđuje
13:45
by the very same things that we will demonstrate against during the day.
243
809703
3902
upravo ono prema čemu
pokazujemo otpor danju.
pokazujemo otpor danju.
13:49
You know, the erotic mind is not very politically correct.
244
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3413
Erotski um nije baš politički ispravan.
13:52
If everybody was fantasizing on a bed of roses,
245
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2655
Da svi fantaziraju na postelji
posutoj ružama,
posutoj ružama,
13:55
we wouldn't be having such interesting talks about this.
246
819673
3437
ne bismo o tome imali ovako
zanimljive razgovore.
zanimljive razgovore.
13:59
But no, in our mind up there
247
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2813
Ali ne, gore u našoj glavi,
14:01
are a host of things going on that we don't always know
248
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3747
odvija se toliko toga što
ne znamo uvek
ne znamo uvek
14:05
how to bring to the person that we love,
249
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2087
kako da pokažemo osobi koju volimo,
14:07
because we think love comes with selflessness
250
831757
2813
jer mislimo da uz ljubav
ide nesebičnost,
ide nesebičnost,
14:10
and in fact desire comes with a certain amount of selfishness
251
834570
3712
dok zapravo uz žudnju dolazi
jedna doza sebičnosti,
jedna doza sebičnosti,
14:14
in the best sense of the word:
252
838282
1779
u najboljem smislu reči:
14:15
the ability to stay connected to one's self
253
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3033
to je sposobnost da ostanemo
povezani sa sobom
povezani sa sobom
14:18
in the presence of another.
254
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1891
u prisustvu drugog.
14:20
So I want to draw that little image for you,
255
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2652
Želim nešto da vam dočaram,
14:23
because this need to reconcile these two sets of needs,
256
847637
3709
jer ova potreba za pomirenjem
dveju grupa potreba,
dveju grupa potreba,
14:27
we are born with that.
257
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1543
to je nešto sa čime se rađamo.
14:28
Our need for connection, our need for separateness,
258
852889
2897
Tu je potreba za povezivanjem,
potreba za odvojenošću
potreba za odvojenošću
14:31
or our need for security and adventure,
259
855786
2209
ili naša potreba za
sigurnošću i avanturom
sigurnošću i avanturom
14:33
or our need for togetherness and for autonomy,
260
857995
2696
ili potreba za zajedništvom
i samostalnošću.
i samostalnošću.
14:36
and if you think about the little kid who sits on your lap
261
860691
2744
Zamislite malo dete
koje vam sedi u krilu,
koje vam sedi u krilu,
14:39
and who is cozily nested here and very secure and comfortable,
262
863435
4492
oseća se sigurno i prijatno
kao u udobnom gnezdu.
kao u udobnom gnezdu.
14:43
and at some point all of us need to go out into the world
263
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3917
U nekom trenutku svi imamo
potrebu da odemo u svet,
potrebu da odemo u svet,
14:47
to discover and to explore.
264
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2492
da otkrivamo i istražujemo.
14:50
That's the beginning of desire,
265
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1517
To je začetak žudnje.
14:51
that exploratory needs curiosity, discovery.
266
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4495
Tom istraživačkom duhu
potrebna je znatiželja, otkriće.
potrebna je znatiželja, otkriće.
14:56
And then at some point they turn around and they look at you,
267
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3892
Kad se dete osvrne i pogleda vas
15:00
and if you tell them,
268
884240
2473
i ako mu tad kažete:
15:02
"Hey kiddo, the world's a great place. Go for it.
269
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2352
"Hej, dete, svet je divno mesto.
Samo napred.
Samo napred.
15:04
There's so much fun out there,"
270
889065
1692
Postoji toliko zabavnih stvari."
15:06
then they can turn away and they can experience
271
890757
2676
Tada ono može da ode i
istovremeno doživi
istovremeno doživi
15:09
connection and separateness at the same time.
272
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2205
povezanost i odvojenost.
15:11
They can go off in their imagination, off in their body,
273
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3249
Može se prepustiti mašti,
svom telu,
svom telu,
15:14
off in their playfulness, all the while knowing
274
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3082
svojoj razigranosti,
znajući celo vreme
znajući celo vreme
15:17
that there's somebody when they come back.
275
901969
2593
da će ga neko čekati
kada se vrati.
kada se vrati.
15:20
But if on this side there is somebody who says,
276
904562
2311
Ali ako je sa te strane
neko ko kaže:
neko ko kaže:
15:22
"I'm worried. I'm anxious. I'm depressed.
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3827
"Zabrinut sam. Nervozan sam.
Depresivan sam.
Depresivan sam.
15:26
My partner hasn't taken care of me in so long.
278
910700
2034
Moj partner već dugo
ne mari za mene.
ne mari za mene.
15:28
What's so good out there? Don't we have everything
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Šta je tako dobro tamo?
Za nemamo mi sve
Za nemamo mi sve
15:31
you need together, you and I?"
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zajedno što ti treba,
ti i ja?"
ti i ja?"
15:33
then there are a few little reactions
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Tada nastupe neke reakcije
15:35
that all of us can pretty much recognize.
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koje svi manje-više poznajemo.
15:38
Some of us will come back, came back a long time ago,
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Neki će se vratiti natrag,
neki su se odavno vratili
neki su se odavno vratili
15:43
and that little child who comes back
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i to malo dete koje se vrati
15:45
is the child who will forgo a part of himself
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je dete koje će se
odreći dela sebe
odreći dela sebe
15:48
in order not to lose the other.
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da ne izgubi onog drugog.
15:51
I will lose my freedom in order not to lose connection.
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Izgubiću slobodu,
da ne izgubim povezanost.
da ne izgubim povezanost.
15:54
And I will learn to love in a certain way
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I naučiću da volim na način
15:57
that will become burdened with extra worry
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opterećen dodatnom brigom
16:01
and extra responsibility and extra protection,
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i dodatnom odgovornošću
i dodatnom zaštitom
i dodatnom zaštitom
16:05
and I won't know how to leave you
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i neću znati kako da
odem od tebe,
odem od tebe,
16:07
in order to go play, in order to go experience pleasure,
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951938
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da se igram,
da iskusim zadovoljstvo,
da iskusim zadovoljstvo,
16:11
in order to discover, to enter inside myself.
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da otkrivam,
da zakoračim u sebe.
da zakoračim u sebe.
16:14
Translate this into adult language.
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2884
Prevedite ovo na
jezik odraslih.
jezik odraslih.
16:17
It starts very young. It continues into our sex lives
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Počinje rano, a nadovezuje se
na naše seksualne živote
na naše seksualne živote
16:21
up to the end.
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i na sve ostalo.
16:22
Child number two comes back
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Dete broj dva se vraća
16:25
but looks like that over their shoulder all the time.
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ali stalno gleda iza sebe.
16:27
"Are you going to be there?
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"Da li ćes biti tu?
16:30
Are you going to curse me? Are you going to scold me?
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Hoćeš li me opsovati?
Hoćeš li me izgrditi?
Hoćeš li me izgrditi?
16:31
Are you going to be angry with me?"
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Hoćeš li se naljutiti
na mene?"
na mene?"
16:33
And they may be gone, but they're never really away,
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I možda će otići, ali nikad neće
biti istinski odsutno.
biti istinski odsutno.
16:37
and those are often the people that will tell you,
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I to su često ljudi koji
će vam reći
će vam reći
16:39
in the beginning it was super hot.
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kako je u početku sve
bilo superuzbudljivo.
bilo superuzbudljivo.
16:41
Because in the beginning, the growing intimacy
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U početku, sve izraženija initima
16:45
wasn't yet so strong
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nije bila toliko snažna
16:47
that it actually led to the decrease of desire.
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da bi uticala na
smanjenje žudnje.
smanjenje žudnje.
16:50
The more connected I became, the more responsible I felt,
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3719
Što sam više osećala povezanost,
rastao je moj osećaj odgovornosti,
rastao je moj osećaj odgovornosti,
16:54
the less I was able to let go in your presence.
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3258
a sve manje sam mogla
da se opustim u tvom prisustvu.
da se opustim u tvom prisustvu.
16:57
The third child doesn't really come back.
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2814
Treće dete se zapravo ne vraća.
17:00
So what happens, if you want to sustain desire,
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Dakle, ako želite da oržite žudnju
17:03
it's that real dialectic piece.
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mislite o toj podvojenosti opcija.
17:05
On the one hand you want the security in order to be able to go.
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3681
Sa jedne strane želite sigurnost
kako biste mogli otići.
kako biste mogli otići.
17:09
On the other hand if you can't go, you can't have pleasure,
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3752
Sa druge, ako ne možete da odete,
ne možete da iskusite zadovoljstvo,
ne možete da iskusite zadovoljstvo,
17:13
you can't culminate, you don't have an orgasm,
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ne možete da doživite vrhunac,
ne postižete orgazam,
ne postižete orgazam,
17:16
you don't get excited because you spend your time
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2483
ne uzbuđujete se jer boravite
17:18
in the body and the head of the other and not in your own.
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3136
u glavi i telu drugoga,
a ne u svojima.
a ne u svojima.
17:21
So in this dilemma about reconciling
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3720
Kada je u pitanju ova dilema
17:25
these two sets of fundamental needs,
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o pomirenju ove dve
grupe osnovnih potreba
grupe osnovnih potreba
17:28
there are a few things that I've come to understand erotic couples do.
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erotični parovi rade nekoliko stvari.
17:32
One, they have a lot of sexual privacy.
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2982
Prvo, imaju mnogo seksualne privatnosti.
17:35
They understand that there is an erotic space
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Znaju da postoji
jedan erotski prostor
jedan erotski prostor
17:37
that belongs to each of them.
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koji pripada svakom
od njih.
od njih.
17:40
They also understand that foreplay is not something you do
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Takođe znaju da predigra
nije nešto što odradite
nije nešto što odradite
17:43
five minutes before the real thing.
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pet minuta pre glavne stvari.
17:45
Foreplay pretty much starts at the end of the previous orgasm.
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3200
Predigra manje-više počinje
okončanjem prethodnog orgazma.
okončanjem prethodnog orgazma.
17:48
They also understand that an erotic space
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3220
Znaju i da erotski prostor
17:51
isn't about, you begin to stroke the other.
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nije kad međusobno počnete
da se mazite,
da se mazite,
17:53
It's about you create a space where you leave Management Inc.,
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1057995
3555
već je to stvaranje prostora gde
bacate dirigentsku palicu
bacate dirigentsku palicu
17:57
maybe where you leave the agile program,
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2644
i gde se možda odričete
utabanih staza
utabanih staza
18:00
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
18:01
and you actually just enter that place
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3088
i zapravo samo stupate u prostor
18:04
where you stop being the good citizen
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2101
gde prestajete biti uzoran građanin
18:07
who is taking care of things and being responsible.
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2664
koji je odgovoran i brine o stvarima.
18:09
Responsibility and desire just butt heads.
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Odgovornost i žudnja su
kao rogovi u vreći.
kao rogovi u vreći.
18:13
They don't really do well together.
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2632
Baš se i ne slažu.
18:15
Erotic couples also understand that passion waxes and wanes.
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Erotični parovi znaju i da strast
odlazi i dolazi.
odlazi i dolazi.
18:20
It's pretty much like the moon. It has intermittent eclipses.
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3569
Skoro kao Mesec koji
ima redovna pomračenja.
ima redovna pomračenja.
18:23
But what they know is they know how to resurrect it.
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2623
Ali takođe znaju i
kako oživeti strast.
kako oživeti strast.
18:26
They know how to bring it back,
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1692
Umeju da je vrate,
18:28
and they know how to bring it back
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1233
a znaju i kako da je vrate,
18:29
because they have demystified one big myth,
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2532
jer su otkrili jedan veliki mit,
18:31
which is the myth of spontaneity, which is
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2638
mit o spontanosti, koji kaže
18:34
that it's just going to fall from heaven while you're folding the laundry
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1098519
3714
da će to nešto pasti sa neba
dok slažete rublje
dok slažete rublje
18:38
like a deus ex machina, and in fact they understood
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3112
kao prst sudbine
i takođe znaju
i takođe znaju
18:41
that whatever is going to just happen
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2636
da ono što treba da se dogodi
18:43
in a long-term relationship already has.
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3086
u dugoj vezi već i dogodilo.
18:46
Committed sex is premeditated sex.
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2664
Posvećeni seks je
unapred osmišljeni seks.
unapred osmišljeni seks.
18:49
It's willful. It's intentional.
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2438
Voljan.
Nameran.
Nameran.
18:52
It's focus and presence.
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On je fokus i prisustvo.
18:55
Merry Valentine's.
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Srećan vam Dan zaljubljenih.
18:57
(Applause)
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(Aplauz)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Esther Perel - Relationship therapistPsychotherapist Esther Perel is changing the conversation on what it means to be in love and have a fulfilling sex life.
Why you should listen
For the first time in human history, couples aren’t having sex just to have kids; there’s room for sustained desire and long-term sexual relationships. But how? Perel, a licensed marriage and family therapist with a practice in New York, travels the world to help people answer this question. For her research she works across cultures and is fluent in nine languages. She coaches, consults and speaks regularly on erotic intelligence, trauma, sexual honesty and conflict resolution. She is the author of Mating in Captivity: Reconciling the Erotic and the Domestic. Her latest work focuses on infidelity: what it is, why happy people do it and how couples can recover from it. She aims to locate this very personal experience within a larger cultural context.
Esther Perel | Speaker | TED.com