TEDIndia 2009
Shekhar Kapur: We are the stories we tell ourselves
谢加·凯普尔: 我们都只是讲给自己的故事
Filmed:
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创意之源何处寻觅？对好莱坞／宝来坞双栖导演谢加·凯普尔（执导影片《伊丽莎白》，《印度先生》）来说，创意来自于纯粹的焦虑的紧张感。他和我们分享了释放我们每个人心中故事盒的途径。
Shekhar Kapur - Director and writer
Shekhar Kapur is a visionary filmmaker and storyteller who works at the intersection of art, myth and activism. Full bio
Shekhar Kapur is a visionary filmmaker and storyteller who works at the intersection of art, myth and activism. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
So, I was just asked to go and shoot this film called "Elizabeth."
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其实，我当时只打算拍《伊丽莎白》。
00:18
And we're all talking about this great English icon and saying,
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所以我们全都在谈论着这位伟大的英国人物，
00:21
"She's a fantastic woman, she does everything.
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“她是个了不起的女人。她无所不能。
00:23
How are we going to introduce her?"
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可是，她该怎样出场？”
00:25
So we went around the table with the studio and the producers and the writer,
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公司、制片人、编剧谈了又谈，
00:27
and they came to me and said, "Shekhar, what do you think?"
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然后他们来找我：“谢加，你有什么想法？”
00:29
And I said, "I think she's dancing."
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“我想她会跳舞。”
00:32
And I could see everybody looked at me,
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于是在场所有人都看着我，
00:35
somebody said, "Bollywood."
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“宝来坞。”有人说。
00:37
The other said, "How much did we hire him for?"
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还有人说：“这家伙花了我们多少钱？”
00:39
And the third said, "Let's find another director."
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或是：“我们真该换个导演。”
00:42
I thought I had better change.
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当时我想，我可能确实需要些改变。
00:44
So we had a lot of discussion on how to introduce Elizabeth,
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于是我们又讨论了很久伊丽莎白的出场。
00:46
and I said, "OK, maybe I am too Bollywood.
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我说：“可能我确实太过宝来坞。
00:49
Maybe Elizabeth, this great icon, dancing?
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可是，伊丽莎白，这位伟大的人物，的确也跳舞？“
00:51
What are you talking about?"
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”你在说什么？！“
00:53
So I rethought the whole thing,
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于是我不得不再次从头开始。
00:55
and then we all came to a consensus.
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最后，我们终于达成共识。
00:57
And here was the introduction of this
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电影中，这位伟大的英国女人，伊丽莎白，
00:59
great British icon called "Elizabeth."
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是这样出场的：
01:06
Leicester: May I join you, my lady?
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雷彻思特：”可以和您跳舞吗，我尊贵的夫人？“
01:18
Elizabeth: If it please you, sir.
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伊丽莎白：”非常乐意，先生。“
01:21
(Music)
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(音乐)
02:05
Shekhar Kapur: So she was dancing.
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”所以，最后，她就是跳着舞出场。“
02:07
So how many people who saw the film did not get
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看过电影，观众们可以感觉
02:10
that here was a woman in love,
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”嘿，这是个恋爱中的女人。“
02:12
that she was completely innocent
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她是完完全全纯真的，
02:14
and saw great joy in her life, and she was youthful?
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趁着年轻，享受人生的快乐。
02:17
And how many of you did not get that?
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你们应该看到，
02:21
That's the power of visual storytelling,
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这就是通过图像来讲故事的力量。
02:23
that's the power of dance, that's the power of music:
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也是音乐和舞蹈的力量。
02:26
the power of not knowing.
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是”无知“的力量。
02:29
When I go out to direct a film,
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导演电影时，
02:31
every day we prepare too much, we think too much.
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我们总是想得太多，准备得太多。
02:33
Knowledge becomes a weight upon wisdom.
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我们的知识成为负担，使我们失去智慧。
02:36
You know, simple words lost
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在经验增长的同时，
02:38
in the quicksand of experience.
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我们却丢失了简单的语言。
02:42
So I come up, and I say,
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于是我问自己：
02:44
"What am I going to do today?" I'm not going to do what I planned to do,
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”今天你要做什么？“我不打算再按计划行事，
02:47
and I put myself into absolute panic.
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我让自己处于绝对的惊恐焦虑中。
02:50
It's my one way of getting rid of my mind,
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这就是我逃离”理智“的方法。
02:53
getting rid of this mind that says,
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它总是说：”嘿，
02:55
"Hey, you know what you're doing. You know exactly what you're doing.
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你知道你在做什么。当了这么多年导演之后，
02:57
You're a director, you've done it for years."
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你完完全全掌控着一切。“
02:59
So I've got to get there
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摆脱这个声音后，
03:01
and be in complete panic.
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我感到的是彻底的惊恐焦虑。
03:03
It's a symbolic gesture. I tear up the script,
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我撕掉剧本，
03:05
I go and I panic myself, I get scared.
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陷入惊恐中。我感到害怕。
03:08
I'm doing it right now; you can watch me. I'm getting nervous,
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正如我现在做的这样。你们可以看出来，我很紧张。
03:11
I don't know what to say, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't want to go there.
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不知道说什么，不知道做什么，我害怕这样。
03:14
And as I go there, of course, my A.D. says,
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当我这样时，助理导演说：
03:16
"You know what you're going to do, sir." I say, "Of course I do."
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”先生，您知道自己在做什么。“我回答：“当然。”
03:20
And the studio executives, they would say,
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片场的人们会说：
03:22
"Hey, look at Shekhar. He's so prepared."
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“嘿，看谢加。一看就知已经做足准备。”
03:24
And inside I've just been listening to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan
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其实我刚刚还在听Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan，
03:26
because he's chaotic.
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只因为他的歌一片混乱。
03:28
I'm allowing myself to go into chaos
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我就是要自己进入混乱无章的状态。
03:31
because out of chaos, I'm hoping some moments of truth will come.
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因为只有在混乱之中，我们才能期待真理的到来。
03:35
All preparation is preparation.
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所谓准备其实也就只是准备。
03:37
I don't even know if it's honest.
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我甚至不知道它是不是真的存在，
03:39
I don't even know if it's truthful.
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是不是值得信任。
03:41
The truth of it all comes on the moment, organically,
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真理只在瞬间降临。
03:44
and if you get five great moments
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如果在你的电影里，在你的故事里，
03:46
of great, organic stuff
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你能够有五个这样的瞬间，
03:48
in your storytelling, in your film,
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可以创作出了不起的东西，
03:50
your film, audiences will get it.
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你的观众会感觉到。
03:52
So I'm looking for those moments, and I'm standing there
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当时我就是在寻找这样的瞬间。于是我站在这里，说：
03:54
and saying, "I don't know what to say."
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“我不知道该说什么。”
03:56
So, ultimately, everybody's looking at you,
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于是所有人都盯着你，
03:58
200 people at seven in the morning
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早晨7点，200人盯着你。
04:00
who got there at quarter to seven, and you arrived at seven,
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他们15分钟前就到了。你是七点到的。
04:02
and everybody's saying,
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所有人都在问：
04:04
"Hey. What's the first thing? What's going to happen?"
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“嘿！先做什么？这里发生了什么？”
04:06
And you put yourself into a state of panic
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而你只是把自己陷入到惊恐焦虑中。
04:08
where you don't know, and so you don't know.
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那里，你什么都不知道。
04:11
And so, because you don't know,
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正因为你什么都不知道，
04:13
you're praying to the universe because you're praying to the universe
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你开始向宇宙祈求，
04:16
that something -- I'm going to try and access the universe
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你开始试着与宇宙连接，
04:19
the way Einstein -- say a prayer --
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就是用爱因斯坦当年用的方法。
04:21
accessed his equations,
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他就是用这方法连接了宇宙，看到了他的方程。
04:23
the same source. I'm looking for the same source
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于是，我正在向同一个源泉祈求。
04:26
because creativity comes from absolutely the same source
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因为所有的创造力都来源于那一个地方。
04:28
that you meditate somewhere outside yourself,
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你必须在你自己本身之外，
04:30
outside the universe.
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宇宙之外去探求、去冥想。
04:32
You're looking for something that comes and hits you.
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你期待有一样东西会降临，会打动你。
04:34
Until that hits you, you're not going to do the first shot.
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而且除非那样东西降临，你都决不会开机。
04:36
So what do you do?
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现在，你该做什么？
04:38
So Cate says, "Shekhar, what do you want me to do?"
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凯特问：“谢卡，你想让我做什么？”
04:40
And I say, "Cate, what do you want to do?" (Laughter)
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我回答：“凯特，你想要做什么？
04:43
"You're a great actor, and I like to give to my actors --
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你是个了不起的演员。我想让你自己发挥。
04:46
why don't you show me what you want to do?"
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所以，你为什么不给我看看你想怎么演。”
04:48
(Laughter)
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（笑）
04:50
What am I doing? I'm trying to buy time.
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我在做什么？
04:52
I'm trying to buy time.
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我只是努力争取时间。
04:54
So the first thing about storytelling that I learned,
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所以，关于讲故事，我学到的第一点，
04:56
and I follow all the time is: Panic.
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并且一直坚持的，就是惊恐焦虑。
04:58
Panic is the great access of creativity
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那是创造力的伟大源泉
05:01
because that's the only way to get rid of your mind.
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因为只有这样我才能摆脱“理智”。
05:03
Get rid of your mind.
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摆脱“理智”吧。
05:05
Get out of it, get it out.
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逃离它，忘掉它。
05:07
And let's go to the universe because
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去向宇宙祈求，
05:09
there's something out there that is more
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因为那里的一些东西
05:11
truthful than your mind,
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要比你的”理智“更加可信，
05:13
that is more truthful than your universe.
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比你自己的”宇宙“要更加可信。
05:15
[unclear], you said that yesterday. I'm just repeating it
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您昨天说过。我只是重复，
05:17
because that's what I follow constantly
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因为那就是我一直所做的。
05:19
to find the shunyata somewhere, the emptiness.
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去寻找”空“。
05:22
Out of the emptiness comes a moment of creativity.
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只有在”空“里，才能寻求到创意的瞬间。
05:25
So that's what I do.
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那就是我一直做的。
05:27
When I was a kid -- I was about eight years old.
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当我还是个8岁的孩子时，
05:29
You remember how India was. There was no pollution.
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你知道那时候的印度，没有污染。
05:32
In Delhi, we used to live -- we used to call it a chhat or the khota.
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那时我们住在德里，我们当时叫它Khota。
05:36
Khota's now become a bad word. It means their terrace --
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Khota现在变成一个不好的词了，意思是“他们的地盘”
05:39
and we used to sleep out at night.
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晚上我们会睡在外面。
05:41
At school I was being just taught about physics,
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我刚开始在学校学习物理，
05:43
and I was told that
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我学到
05:46
if there is something that exists,
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如果一样东西存在，
05:48
then it is measurable.
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它就是可测量的。
05:51
If it is not measurable,
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如果一样东西不可测量，
05:53
it does not exist.
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它就不存在。
05:55
And at night I would lie out, looking at the unpolluted sky,
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晚上我就在德里当时纯净的夜空下躺着，
05:58
as Delhi used to be at that time when I was a kid,
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我还是个孩子，
06:01
and I used to stare at the universe and say,
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我看着整个宇宙，说：
06:04
"How far does this universe go?"
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”宇宙将存在多久？“
06:06
My father was a doctor.
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我的父亲是个医生。
06:08
And I would think, "Daddy, how far does the universe go?"
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我会问：”爸爸，宇宙将存在多久？“
06:11
And he said, "Son, it goes on forever."
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他回答：”永无止境。“
06:14
So I said, "Please measure forever
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”那你告诉我怎么度量永久啊！
06:17
because in school they're teaching me
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学校的老师说
06:19
that if I cannot measure it, it does not exist.
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如果某东西你不能测量，它就不存在。
06:22
It doesn't come into my frame of reference."
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不存在我的参照系里。”
06:25
So, how far does eternity go?
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所以，什么是永恒？
06:27
What does forever mean?
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永远是什么意思？
06:29
And I would lie there crying at night
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那些晚上，我躺着哭泣，
06:32
because my imagination could not touch creativity.
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因为我的想象力不能触及到创造力。
06:35
So what did I do?
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我该怎么做？
06:37
At that time, at the tender age of seven,
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于是在那时，在七岁那年，
06:39
I created a story.
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我编了个故事。
06:41
What was my story?
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不知为什么，
06:43
And I don't know why, but I remember the story.
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到现在我还记得那个故事。
06:46
There was a woodcutter
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有一个伐木工
06:48
who's about to take his ax and chop a piece of wood,
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拿起他的斧子准备砍一块木头。
06:51
and the whole galaxy is one atom of that ax.
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他的斧子很大。整个宇宙不过是其中一粒原子。
06:56
And when that ax hits that piece of wood,
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当他的斧子击打到那片木头，
06:59
that's when everything will destroy
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万事万物都消亡。
07:01
and the Big Bang will happen again.
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大爆炸将再次发生。
07:03
But all before that there was a woodcutter.
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在我们的宇宙之前，只有一个伐木工。
07:05
And then when I would run out of that story,
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然后我会跳出这个故事，
07:07
I would imagine that woodcutter's universe
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去想象那个伐木工的宇宙。
07:10
is one atom in the ax of another woodcutter.
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它只是另一个伐木工斧子的一个原子。
07:13
So every time, I could tell my story again and again
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所以每次，我都可以不断的讲述我的故事，
07:16
and get over this problem,
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以为解决了我的问题。
07:18
and so I got over the problem.
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所以我就这样解决了困惑。
07:21
How did I do it? Tell a story.
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可我是怎么做到的？讲故事。
07:24
So what is a story?
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那么，什么是故事？
07:26
A story is our -- all of us --
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故事就是一切，是我们所有人。
07:29
we are the stories we tell ourselves.
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我们都只是我们讲给自己的故事。
07:32
In this universe, and this existence,
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在这个宇宙里，在这种存在里，
07:36
where we live with this duality
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我们过着双重的生活
07:38
of whether we exist or not
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我们究竟存在与否？
07:40
and who are we,
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我们究竟是谁？
07:42
the stories we tell ourselves are the stories
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故事，我们讲给自己的故事
07:45
that define the potentialities
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决定了
07:47
of our existence.
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我们存在的可能性。
07:49
We are the stories we tell ourselves.
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我们只是我们告诉自己的故事。
07:54
So that's as wide as we look at stories.
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宇宙万物也只和我们的故事一样宽广。
07:56
A story is the relationship
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你是谁，你能成为谁，
07:58
that you develop between who you are,
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和我们这个无穷的宇宙的关系，
08:02
or who you potentially are,
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就在我们的故事里。
08:04
and the infinite world, and that's our mythology.
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那就是我们的神话。
08:07
We tell our stories,
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我们讲故事。
08:10
and a person without a story does not exist.
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没有故事的人是不存在的。
08:13
So Einstein told a story
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爱因斯坦讲了个故事。
08:16
and followed his stories and came up with theories
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在故事里他提出了他的理论，
08:19
and came up with theories and then came up with his equations.
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在理论里提出了他的方程。
08:22
Alexander had a story that his mother used to tell him,
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亚历山大的母亲告诉他一个故事，
08:25
and he went out to conquer the world.
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他于是征服了世界。
08:27
We all, everybody, has a story that they follow.
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我们所有人，每一个人，都跟随着他的故事。
08:30
We tell ourselves stories.
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我们给自己讲故事。
08:32
So, I will go further, and I say,
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更进一步，我说
08:35
"I tell a story, and therefore I exist."
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我讲故事，所以我存在。
08:37
I exist because there are stories,
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因为那些故事，所以我存在此处。
08:39
and if there are no stories, we don't exist.
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如果没有故事，那么我们都将消失。
08:41
We create stories to define our existence.
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我们的故事决定了我们的存在。
08:44
If we do not create the stories,
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如果我们停止讲故事，
08:46
we probably go mad.
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我们可能会疯掉。
08:49
I don't know; I'm not sure, but that's what I've done all the time.
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我不知道。但我一直就是这么做的。
08:52
Now, a film.
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现在我们讲讲电影。
08:56
A film tells a story.
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电影讲故事。
08:58
I often wonder when I make a film -- I'm thinking of making a film of the Buddha --
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我常常想，我在拍一部佛的电影，
09:01
and I often wonder: If Buddha had all the elements
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我会想：如果佛拥有和导演一样的
09:05
that are given to a director --
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那些器材。
09:07
if he had music, if he had visuals, if he had a video camera --
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他有音乐，他有特效，他有摄影机，
09:10
would we get Buddhism better?
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我们会不会有更好的佛教？
09:12
But that puts some kind of burden on me.
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但这个成为了我的某种负担。
09:14
I have to tell a story
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我必须以一种更加明确的方式
09:16
in a much more elaborate way,
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来讲述这个故事。
09:18
but I have the potential.
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但我看到了那种可能性。
09:20
It's called subtext.
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那就是“言外之意”。
09:22
When I first went to Hollywood, they said --
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在我刚到好莱坞时，人们和我说——
09:24
I used to talk about subtext, and my agent came to me,
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我当时和人们谈论“言外之意”，于是我的代理人对我说，
09:26
"Would you kindly not talk about subtext?"
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“请不要再谈论‘言外之意’了。””
09:29
And I said, "Why?" He said, "Because nobody is going to give you a film
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我问：“为什么？”他说：“因为如果你再谈论它，
09:31
if you talk about subtext.
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没有人会给你片约。
09:34
Just talk about plot
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试着只去谈论情节，
09:36
and say how wonderful you'll shoot the film,
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谈谈你将会把电影拍得多么精彩，
09:38
what the visuals will be."
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或者谈谈会有什么样的视觉效果。”
09:40
So when I look at a film,
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所以当我们看一部电影，
09:42
here's what we look for:
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这些就是我们寻求的，
09:44
We look for a story on the plot level,
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我们在情节得层面上看那个故事，
09:47
then we look for a story
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在心理得层面上，
09:49
on the psychological level,
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看那个故事，
09:51
then we look for a story on the political level,
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之后我们在政治的层面上看那个故事，
09:54
then we look at a story
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在传说的层面上
09:56
on a mythological level.
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看那个故事。
09:58
And I look for stories on each level.
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我在这所有层面上寻找故事。
10:00
Now, it is not necessary
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现在的状况是，
10:02
that these stories agree with each other.
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这些故事不必彼此契合。
10:05
What is wonderful is,
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在许多时候，故事之间相互矛盾，
10:07
at many times, the stories will contradict with each other.
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这正是精彩之处。
10:11
So when I work with Rahman who's a great musician,
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在我和伟大的音乐家Rahman合作时，
10:13
I often tell him, "Don't follow what the script already says.
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我常常和他说，“不要拘泥于剧本，
10:17
Find that which is not.
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找到剧本之外的东西。
10:19
Find the truth for yourself,
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自己寻找真相。
10:21
and when you find the truth for yourself,
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当你找到它时，
10:23
there will be a truth in it, but it may contradict the plot,
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它就会出现在你的音乐中。它有可能会和情节不符，
10:25
but don't worry about it."
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但是不用担心。“
10:29
So, the sequel to "Elizabeth," "Golden Age."
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所以，在《伊丽莎白》的续集《黄金时代》里，
10:32
When I made the sequel to "Elizabeth," here was a story that
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故事情节大概如此
10:34
the writer was telling:
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编剧是这样写的。
10:36
A woman who was threatened
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一个受到菲利普二世
10:39
by Philip II
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威胁的女人
10:41
and was going to war,
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去到战场，
10:43
and was going to war, fell in love with Walter Raleigh.
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当她到了那里，她和雷利爵士坠入爱河。
10:45
Because she fell in love with Walter Raleigh,
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因为这段爱情，
10:48
she was giving up the reasons she was a queen,
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她打算放弃皇位。
10:50
and then Walter Raleigh
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但那位爵士
10:52
fell in love with her lady in waiting,
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却爱上她的侍女。
10:54
and she had to decide whether she was a queen going to war
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于是，她不得不做出选择，她是一个作战的女王，
10:56
or she wanted...
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或者她只是想要爱情。
11:00
Here's the story I was telling:
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这一切这样出现在我的电影中。
11:03
The gods up there,
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天界诸神面前，
11:05
there were two people.
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站立两个人，
11:07
There was Philip II, who was divine
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菲利普二世，希望死后进入天界
11:10
because he was always praying,
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因为在世时他总是不断祈祷。
11:13
and there was Elizabeth, who was divine,
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还有伊丽莎白，也想成为神，
11:15
but not quite divine because she thought she was divine,
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但却不可以。虽然她自以为注定会成为神，
11:17
but the blood of being mortal flowed in her.
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但她的体内流淌着的并不是永生的血液。
11:20
But the divine one was unjust,
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可是，那位将成为神的却并不是一位正直的人，
11:23
so the gods said,
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于是诸神说道：
11:25
"OK, what we need to do is
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“好吧。让我们这么干
11:27
help the just one."
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让我们帮助那位正直的人。”
11:30
And so they helped the just one.
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于是他们开始帮助她。
11:32
And what they did was, they sent Walter Raleigh down
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而他们所做的事就是让雷利爵士来到人间
11:35
to physically separate her mortal self
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去把她不朽的精神
11:38
from her spirit self.
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和无法达到永生的肉体分离开来。
11:40
And the mortal self was the girl
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那个不能永生“她”
11:42
that Walter Raleigh was sent,
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就是派到雷利爵士那里的那位女侍，
11:44
and gradually he separated her
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渐渐的，他将她“抽离”
11:47
so she was free to be divine.
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于是她可以成为神了。
11:49
And the two divine people fought,
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然后菲利普和伊丽莎白相互斗争，
11:51
and the gods were on the side of divinity.
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众神站在伊丽莎白那边。
11:53
Of course, all the British press got really upset.
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当然，电影放映时，英国的媒体都疯了。
11:57
They said, "We won the Armada."
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后来有人说：“我们赢得了无敌舰队之战。”
12:00
But I said, "But the storm won the Armada.
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而我说：“是风暴帮助你们赢得了战争。
12:02
The gods sent the storm."
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而风暴是诸神派遣的。“
12:04
So what was I doing?
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我在干什么？
12:06
I was trying to find a mythic reason
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我只是找一个传奇的理由
12:08
to make the film.
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来制作一部影片。
12:10
Of course, when I asked Cate Blanchett, I said, "What's the film about?"
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后来我问凯特布兰彻特：”这部电影讲的是什么？“
12:13
She said, "The film's about a woman
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她说：”它讲的是
12:15
coming to terms with growing older."
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一个女人的成长故事。”
12:18
Psychological.
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心理层面。
12:20
The writer said "It's about history, plot."
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而编剧说它是关于历史、情节。
12:23
I said "It's about mythology,
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我说它是关于神话传说。
12:25
the gods."
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众神的故事。
12:27
So let me show you a film --
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我不妨现在播放电影
12:29
a piece from that film --
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——只是一些片段——
12:31
and how a camera also --
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还有镜头是如何运转——
12:33
so this is a scene, where in my mind,
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这就是当时的场景，我心中的场面，
12:35
she was at the depths of mortality.
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她正处在死亡的深渊。
12:38
She was discovering what mortality actually means,
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她发现了死亡的含义，
12:41
and if she is at the depths of mortality,
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一旦她处在死亡的深渊，
12:44
what really happens.
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那么死亡真的可能降临。
12:46
And she's recognizing the dangers of mortality
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当时的她已经看到了死亡的威胁
12:48
and why she should break away from mortality.
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正因为如此她想要永生。
12:51
Remember, in the film, to me,
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请记住，在电影中，对于我来说，
12:53
both her and her lady in waiting
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她和她的侍女一样
12:55
were parts of the same body,
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都只是一个人的两面
12:57
one the mortal self
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一个是会死的自我
12:59
and one the spirit self.
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一个是不朽的精神。
13:02
So can we have that second?
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那么，我们可能拥有后者么？
13:04
(Music)
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（音乐）
13:06
Elizabeth: Bess?
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伊丽莎白：Bess？
13:10
Bess?
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Bess？
13:13
Bess Throckmorton?
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Bess Throckmorton?
13:20
Bess: Here, my lady.
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贝斯：我在这里，我的女王。
13:22
Elizabeth: Tell me, is it true?
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伊丽莎白：请告诉我，那是真的吗？
13:24
Are you with child?
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你怀孕了吗？
13:28
Are you with child?
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你是不是已经怀上了爵士的孩子？
13:30
Bess: Yes, my lady.
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贝斯：是的，我的女王。
13:32
Elizabeth: Traitorous.
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伊丽莎白：你背叛了我。
13:35
You dare to keep secrets from me?
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你竟敢瞒着我？
13:37
You ask my permission before you rut,
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你必须有我的允许才能生存，
13:40
before you breed.
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必须有我的允许才能呼吸。
13:42
My bitches wear my collars.
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你这个荡妇竟还敢待在我身边。
13:44
Do you hear me? Do you hear me?
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你在听吗？你在听我说话吗？
13:46
Walsingham: Majesty. Please, dignity. Mercy.
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Walsingham：陛下。请息怒。请显示你的仁慈吧。
13:49
Elizabeth: This is no time for mercy, Walsingham.
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伊丽莎白：这并不是仁慈的时候，Walsingham。
13:52
You go to your traitor brother and leave me to my business.
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你去找你那位叛徒兄弟，让我自己决定。
13:55
Is it his?
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孩子是不是他的？
13:57
Tell me. Say it. Is the child his? Is it his?
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告诉我！说！孩子是他的吗？
14:00
Bess: Yes.
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贝斯：是的。
14:02
My lady,
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我的女王。
14:04
it is my husband's child.
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这是我丈夫的孩子。
14:09
Elizabeth: Bitch! (Cries)
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（哭泣声）
14:12
Raleigh: Majesty.
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雷利：陛下。
14:14
This is not the queen I love and serve.
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这并不是我热爱并且侍奉的女王。
14:22
Elizabeth: This man has seduced a ward of the queen,
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伊丽莎白：这个男人引诱了女王的侍女，
14:25
and she has married without royal consent.
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结婚时甚至都没有取得皇家的许可。
14:29
These offenses are punishable by law. Arrest him.
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这些行为是违法的！抓住他！
14:33
Go.
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去！
14:39
You no longer have the queen's protection.
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你不再受到女王的保护。
14:43
Bess: As you wish, Majesty.
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贝斯：如你所愿，陛下。
14:46
Elizabeth: Get out! Get out! Get out!
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伊丽莎白：出去！出去！
14:53
Get out.
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全都给我出去！
14:55
(Music)
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（音乐）
15:16
Shekhar Kapur: So, what am I trying to do here?
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谢加·凯普尔: 好了，我在试图说明什么？
15:20
Elizabeth has realized,
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伊丽莎白意识到
15:22
and she's coming face-to-face
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并且决定和她的嫉妒心
15:24
with her own sense of jealousy,
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和她自己腐朽的一面
15:26
her own sense of mortality.
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进行面对面的斗争。
15:28
What am I doing with the architecture?
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我是怎样处理那些建筑的？
15:31
The architecture is telling a story.
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它们也在讲一个故事。
15:33
The architecture is telling a story
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建筑们在讲一个故事
15:35
about how, even though she's the most powerful woman
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作为世界上当时最有权利的女人
15:37
in the world at that time,
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却仍然有一些其他东西要超过她，在她之上，
15:39
there is the other, the architecture's bigger.
337
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比如这些建筑。
15:43
The stone is bigger than her because stone is an organic.
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这些石块要比她更大，因为石头是没有生命的。
15:45
It'll survive her.
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这将拯救她。
15:47
So it's telling you, to me, stone is part of her destiny.
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所以，石头就是她的命运，
15:51
Not only that, why is the camera looking down?
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不仅如此。为什么摄像头要向下？
15:54
The camera's looking down at her because she's in the well.
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那是因为她正在井里。
15:57
She's in the absolute well
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在她自我构筑的
15:59
of her own sense of being mortal.
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绝对的深井里。
16:02
That's where she has to pull herself out
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就是从那里，她将自己
16:05
from the depths of mortality,
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从死亡的深渊中挣脱出来，
16:07
come in, release her spirit.
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她进入那里，解放了她的精神。
16:09
And that's the moment where, in my mind,
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在我心里，在那个瞬间，
16:11
both Elizabeth and Bess are the same person.
349
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伊丽莎白和贝斯仍然是一体的。
16:14
But that's the moment
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但在那个瞬间，
16:16
she's surgically removing herself from that.
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她将贝斯从体内抽离。
16:19
So the film is operating on
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因此在那个场景里，
16:21
many many levels in that scene.
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电影正在许多许多层面上同时推进。
16:23
And how we tell stories
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我们就是这样讲故事，
16:25
visually, with music, with actors,
355
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视觉效果，音乐，演员，
16:28
and at each level it's a different sense
356
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在每一个层面上，都有一个不同的故事
16:30
and sometimes contradictory to each other.
357
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有时甚至会相互矛盾。
16:34
So how do I start all this?
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我是如何开始这一切的？
16:39
What's the process of telling a story?
359
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讲故事的过程是怎样的？
16:42
About ten years ago,
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大约十年前，
16:44
I heard this little thing from a politician,
361
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3000
我从一个政治家那里听到了一件小事，
16:47
not a politician that was very well respected in India.
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他并不是一位广受尊敬的政治家。
16:50
And he said that these people in the cities,
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他说那些住在城市里的人，
16:53
in one flush, expend as much water
364
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一个人就要用掉
16:57
as you people in the rural areas
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农村里所有人在两天里
16:59
don't get for your family for two days.
366
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都无法得到的水。
17:02
That struck a chord, and I said, "That's true."
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这引起我的共鸣。我说：“是这样！”
17:05
I went to see a friend of mine,
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我到马拉巴山区
17:07
and he made me wait
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去探望一位朋友。
17:09
in his apartment in Malabar Hill
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他让我在他住所的第20层
17:11
on the twentieth floor,
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稍等一下。
17:13
which is a really, really upmarket area in Mumbai.
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那个地区确实是孟买的繁华地段。
17:15
And he was having a shower for 20 minutes.
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他花20分钟洗了个澡。
17:17
I got bored and left, and as I drove out,
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我感到无聊，于是开车离开。
17:19
I drove past the slums of Bombay,
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我路过孟买的贫民窟，
17:21
as you always do,
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就像平常一样，
17:23
and I saw lines and lines in the hot midday sun
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我看见正午骄阳下一条条由妇女儿童构成的长龙，
17:25
of women and children with buckets
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他们都拿着水桶，
17:28
waiting for a tanker
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等着水车
17:30
to come and give them water.
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来给他们一些水。
17:32
And an idea started to develop.
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于是我产生一个想法。
17:34
So how does that become a story?
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这一切是如何成为一个故事的？
17:36
I suddenly realized that we are heading towards disaster.
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突然间，我意识到，我们正在走向灾难。
17:39
So my next film is called "Paani"
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于是，我的下一部电影，叫做《巴尼》
17:41
which means water.
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意思是水。
17:43
And now, out of the mythology of that,
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现在，源自神话，
17:45
I'm starting to create a world.
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我开始构建一个世界。
17:47
What kind of world do I create,
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我构建了一个什么样的世界？
17:49
and where does the idea, the design of that come?
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它的形象是怎样产生的？
17:52
So, in my mind, in the future,
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在我的心里，
17:54
they started to build flyovers.
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未来的人们开始建筑立交桥。
17:57
You understand flyovers? Yeah?
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你们知道立交桥？好的。
17:59
They started to build flyovers
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他们开始建筑立交桥
18:01
to get from A to B faster,
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希望更快的从A到达B。
18:03
but they effectively went from one area of relative wealth
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他们希望高效地从一个相对富裕地区
18:06
to another area of relative wealth.
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去到另一个相对富裕地区。
18:08
And then what they did was
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之后他们所做是这样。
18:10
they created a city above the flyovers.
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他们在立交桥上建筑了一个城市。
18:12
And the rich people moved to the upper city
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有钱人都住到这个上层城市去
18:15
and left the poorer people in the lower cities,
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把穷人们留在下层。
18:18
about 10 to 12 percent of the people
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只有10％到12％的人
18:21
have moved to the upper city.
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可以搬到上层。
18:23
Now, where does this upper city and lower city come?
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这上下两层的城市是那里来的？
18:25
There's a mythology in India about --
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那来源于印度的一个传说——
18:27
where they say, and I'll say it in Hindi,
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他们是这么说的，我要用印度语说，
18:30
[Hindi]
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（印度语）
18:34
Right. What does that mean?
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好了。这是什么意思？
18:36
It says that the rich are always sitting on the shoulders
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我说的是，有钱人总是坐在别人的肩上
18:39
and survive on the shoulders of the poor.
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在穷人的肩上生存。
18:41
So, from that mythology, the upper city and lower city come.
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就是这样，从传说中，产生了上下层城市的点子。
18:43
So the design has a story.
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这个设计是有原因的。
18:46
And now, what happens is that the people of the upper city,
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就这样，住在上层的有钱人，
18:49
they suck up all the water.
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他们把所有的水吸吮上去。
18:51
Remember the word I said, suck up.
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记住我的用词，吸吮。
18:53
They suck up all the water, keep to themselves,
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他们吸吮了所有的水，留在自己身边。
18:55
and they drip feed the lower city.
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他们只把水滴给下层的人。
18:57
And if there's any revolution, they cut off the water.
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如果有革命，他们就索性切断水源。
18:59
And, because democracy still exists,
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而且，因为仍然有“民主”，
19:02
there's a democratic way in which you say
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这就是民主，
19:05
"Well, if you give us what [we want], we'll give you water."
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你们听话，我们给你们水。
19:08
So, okay my time is up.
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哦，我的时间到了。
19:10
But I can go on about telling you
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我本打算继续向你们介绍
19:12
how we evolve stories,
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我是如何发展我的故事的，
19:14
and how stories effectively are who we are
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还有我们的故事为什么就是我们本身
19:17
and how these get translated into the particular discipline
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还有如何把这些原则用于不同的方面。
19:19
that I am in, which is film.
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我的就是电影。
19:21
But ultimately, what is a story? It's a contradiction.
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可是，说到底，什么故事？它只是一个矛盾。
19:24
Everything's a contradiction.
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万物皆为矛盾。
19:26
The universe is a contradiction.
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宇宙是矛盾。
19:28
And all of us are constantly looking for harmony.
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可是我们所有人，自始至终，都在寻找和谐。
19:30
When you get up, the night and day is a contradiction.
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当你起床时，看到日与夜的矛盾。
19:32
But you get up at 4 a.m.
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可如果你在凌晨4点起床，
19:34
That first blush of blue is where the night and day
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那第一抹蔚蓝，是日与夜正在向彼此
19:36
are trying to find harmony with each other.
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寻求和谐。
19:39
Harmony is the notes that Mozart didn't give you,
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莫扎特的曲调并没有给你和谐。
19:42
but somehow the contradiction of his notes suggest that.
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但他音符中的矛盾却在暗示着和谐。
19:44
All contradictions of his notes suggest the harmony.
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他以矛盾之声表现和谐。
19:48
It's the effect of looking for harmony
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在诗人心中，这就是从矛盾
19:50
in the contradiction that exists in a poet's mind,
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寻找和谐的方法。
19:53
a contradiction that exists in a storyteller's mind.
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这也是一个讲故事者从矛盾中寻找和谐的方法。
19:56
In a storyteller's mind, it's a contradiction of moralities.
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在故事中，那时死亡与不朽的矛盾。
19:59
In a poet's mind, it's a conflict of words,
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在诗人心中，那是语词的冲突。
20:01
in the universe's mind, between day and night.
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在宇宙心中，它是日夜的交替。
20:04
In the mind of a man and a woman,
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在男人与女人之间，
20:06
we're looking constantly at
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我们总是看到，
20:08
the contradiction between male and female,
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男女之间的不和。
20:10
we're looking for harmony within each other.
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但我们也从彼此处寻求和谐。
20:12
The whole idea of contradiction,
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这一切都是关于矛盾。
20:15
but the acceptance of contradiction
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接受矛盾才能讲出故事，
20:18
is the telling of a story, not the resolution.
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而并不是要去消解这矛盾。
20:20
The problem with a lot of the storytelling in Hollywood
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好莱坞的故事的问题，
20:22
and many films, and as [unclear] was saying in his,
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同时也是许多电影的问题，正如［不清］在他的演讲中所说，
20:25
that we try to resolve the contradiction.
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就是我们总是试图解决矛盾。
20:28
Harmony is not resolution.
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和谐并不是解答。
20:30
Harmony is the suggestion of a thing
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和谐是一件
20:32
that is much larger than resolution.
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远比解决矛盾更大的多的事。
20:34
Harmony is the suggestion of something
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和谐是一件
20:36
that is embracing and universal
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包容万物
20:39
and of eternity and of the moment.
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包容永恒与瞬间的事物。
20:41
Resolution is something that is far more limited.
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而解决矛盾却是有限的。
20:45
It is finite; harmony is infinite.
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和谐是无限的。
20:48
So that storytelling, like all other contradictions in the universe,
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所以，讲故事，就和宇宙中一切矛盾一样，
20:51
is looking for harmony and infinity
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是在死亡中探求和谐与无穷
20:54
in moral resolutions, resolving one, but letting another go,
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解决一方面，放弃另一方面，
20:57
letting another go and creating a question that is really important.
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放弃一方面，提出一个真正关键的问题。
21:01
Thank you very much.
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谢谢各位。
21:03
(Applause)
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(鼓掌)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Shekhar Kapur - Director and writerShekhar Kapur is a visionary filmmaker and storyteller who works at the intersection of art, myth and activism.
Why you should listen
Golden Globe-winning director Shekhar Kapur makes lush, international period films -- such as Elizabeth and The Four Feathers -- and Indian hits like Mr. India and Bandit Queen. Most recently, Kapur's short film "Passages"" is part of the October 2009 film anthology New York, I Love You. Also this October, he sat on the judging panel for 1 Minute to Save the World, a competition for short films about climate change. (And yes, last summer, he was a judge on India's Got Talent.)
His forthcoming film Paani – the hindi word for water – explores mumbai's shrinking supply of water and its distribution underworld. equally at home in hollywood and Bollywood, he's also a comics mogul; in 2006 he co-founded Virgin Comics as a venue for turning Indian and Hindu myths into pop-culture icons. For the company, now reorganized as Liquid Comics, he cocreated the series Ramayan 3392 A.D., based on the Ramayana. His newest Liquid series: Devi.
Shekhar Kapur | Speaker | TED.com