TED2006
Dan Dennett: Let's teach religion -- all religion -- in schools
丹尼尔·丹尼特回应华里克
Filmed:
Readability: 3.9
3,728,395 views
哲学家丹尼尔·丹尼特建议宗教--所有宗教--都能作为一门学科在学校里教授，这样我们就能把宗教的本质理解为一种自然现象。然后他针对《标杆人生》中提到的，如果人类想保存伦理就要否认进化论，进行驳斥。
Dan Dennett - Philosopher, cognitive scientist
Dan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes. Full bio
Dan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:26
It's wonderful to be back.
0
1000
3000
很高兴能再次站在这里
00:29
I love this wonderful gathering.
1
4000
3000
我非常喜欢这样的集会
00:32
And you must be wondering, "What on Earth?
2
7000
2000
你一定会想：怎么搞的？
00:34
Have they put up the wrong slide?"
3
9000
2000
投影是不是打错了？
00:36
No, no.
4
11000
2000
当然不是
00:38
Look at this magnificent beast and ask the question -- who designed it?
5
13000
7000
看看这头漂亮的动物，你不禁会问一个问题--谁设计了它？
00:45
This is TED.
6
20000
2000
我们这里是TED
00:47
This is Technology, Entertainment, Design and there's a dairy cow.
7
22000
7000
是【科技，娱乐，设计】的缩写。但是现在屏幕上是一只奶牛。
00:54
It's a quite wonderfully designed animal.
8
29000
4000
奶牛的构造其实是很精彩的
00:58
And I was thinking, how do I introduce this?
9
33000
2000
我在想，我怎样介绍这个东西？
01:00
And I thought, well, maybe that old doggerel by Joyce Kilmer,
10
35000
5000
我想起了乔尔斯.基尔默的一首打油诗，
01:05
you know: "Poems are made by fools like me,
11
40000
2000
“诗词歌赋傻子写，
01:07
but only God can make a tree."
12
42000
2000
花草树木上帝造。”
01:09
And you might say, "Well, God designed the cow."
13
44000
3000
你可能会说：“那么，是上帝设计了奶牛。”
01:12
But, of course, God got a lot of help.
14
47000
3000
但是，当然了，上帝也得到了很多帮助。
01:16
This is the ancestor of cattle.
15
51000
3000
这是牛的祖先
01:19
This is the Oryx.
16
54000
2000
叫做非洲大羚羊。
01:21
And it was designed by natural selection,
17
56000
2000
它是由“自然选择”设计的，
01:23
the process of natural selection, over many millions of years.
18
58000
4000
历经数百万年进化而来
01:27
And then it became domesticated thousands of years ago.
19
62000
5000
人类在数千年前驯化了它们
01:32
And human beings became its stewards,
20
67000
5000
变成了它们的监护者
01:37
and, without even knowing what they were doing,
21
72000
2000
但人类对自己的行为并不知情，
01:39
they gradually redesigned it and redesigned it and redesigned it.
22
74000
4000
人们逐渐对这个物种进行不断地重新设计，重新设计，重新设计。
01:43
And then, more recently, they really began
23
78000
3000
近期，人类真正开始在奶牛上
01:46
to do sort of reverse engineering on this beast
24
81000
3000
开展类似于“逆向工程”的研究
01:49
and figure out just what the parts were, how they worked
25
84000
3000
希望能认识它全身的各个器官以及其运作方式
01:52
and how they might be optimized -- how they might be made better.
26
87000
4000
找出优化的方法--让它们变得更好
01:57
Now why am I talking about cows?
27
92000
3000
到底为什么我要提到奶牛呢？
02:01
Because I want to say that much the same thing is true of religions.
28
96000
4000
因为我想说，宗教的演变过程与牛的演变很类似
02:06
Religions are natural phenomena.
29
101000
3000
宗教也是一种自然现象
02:09
They're just as natural as cows.
30
104000
2000
它们同奶牛一样自然，
02:11
They have evolved over millennia.
31
106000
4000
历经数千年演化而来
02:15
They have a biological base, just like the Oryx.
32
110000
5000
宗教和羚羊一样，都有一个生物学基础
02:20
They have become domesticated, and human beings
33
115000
3000
也逐渐被人类驯化
02:23
have been redesigning their religions for thousands of years.
34
118000
5000
几千年来，人类也在不断地重新设计自己的宗教
02:29
This is TED, and I want to talk about design.
35
124000
4000
在TED这里，我想重点谈谈“设计”
02:33
Because what I've been doing for the last four years,
36
128000
2000
因为四年以来我一直在做的，
02:36
really since the first time you saw me -- some of you saw me at TED
37
131000
2000
--其实是自从你们在TED上第一次看到我--
02:38
when I was talking about religion, and in the last four years
38
133000
4000
当时我谈的是宗教，在过去的四年中
02:42
I've been working just about non-stop on this topic.
39
137000
3000
我不间断地研究宗教
02:45
And you might say it's about the reverse engineering of religions.
40
140000
5000
你可以叫它宗教版的”生物逆向工程“
02:51
Now that very idea, I think, strikes terror in many people,
41
146000
6000
这个想法想必会让很多人感到恐惧
02:57
or anger, or anxiety of one sort or another.
42
152000
5000
或者愤怒，或者某种程度上的担心
03:02
And that is the spell that I want to break.
43
157000
3000
这正是我要打破的魔咒。
03:05
I want to say, no, religions are an important natural phenomenon.
44
160000
4000
我要说，不，宗教是一个重要的自然现象
03:09
We should study them with the same intensity
45
164000
3000
我们应该研究宗教
03:12
that we study all the other important natural phenomena,
46
167000
3000
像我们研究其它重要的自然现象一样热情
03:15
like global warming, as we heard so eloquently last night from Al Gore.
47
170000
4000
譬如全球变暖，诚如昨晚戈尔谈到的
03:19
Today's religions are brilliantly designed -- brilliantly designed.
48
174000
5000
今天的宗教经过了出色地设计--出色地设计。
03:24
They're immensely powerful social institutions
49
179000
4000
它们是非常强有力的社会机构
03:28
and many of their features can be traced back to earlier features
50
183000
6000
它们的许多特征能够利用“生物逆向工程”
03:34
that we can really make sense of by reverse engineering.
51
189000
4000
追溯到它的早期特征
03:39
And, as with the cow, there's a mixture of evolutionary design,
52
194000
5000
宗教就像牛一样，是一系列进化设计的混合体
03:44
designed by natural selection itself, and intelligent design --
53
199000
5000
有“自然选择”的设计，还有智能设计 --
03:49
more or less intelligent design -- and redesigned by human beings
54
204000
4000
或多或少
03:53
who are trying to redesign their religions.
55
208000
4000
是由不断试着重新设计宗教的人类一手打造
03:58
You don't do book talks at TED, but I'm going to have just one slide
56
213000
5000
在TED你不会想看书评，但是我只打出一张幻灯片
04:03
about my book, because there is one message in it
57
218000
4000
关于我的书，因为我想提到一点
04:07
which I think this group really needs to hear.
58
222000
3000
我认为在座诸位有必要了解
04:10
And I would be very interested to get your responses to this.
59
225000
4000
我也很想听听大家的评论
04:15
It's the one policy proposal that I make in the book,
60
230000
4000
我在书中提到一个政策建议
04:19
at this time when I claim not to know enough about religion
61
234000
4000
以我当时有限的宗教知识
04:23
to know what other policy proposals to make.
62
238000
2000
算是我唯一拿得出手的建议了
04:25
And it's one that echoes remarks that you've heard already today.
63
240000
5000
这个建议呼应了你们今天在这里听到的内容
04:30
Here's my proposal.
64
245000
2000
先说一下我的建议
04:32
I'm going to just take a couple of minutes to explain it --
65
247000
2000
需要花几分钟解释一下
04:34
education in world religions, on world religions, for all of our children in primary school,
66
249000
7000
在我们国家的小学、中学、公私立学校以及家中，
04:41
in high school, in public schools, in private schools and in home schooling.
67
256000
4000
都要教学生认识世界各大宗教
04:46
So what I'm proposing is,
68
261000
2000
我倡议
04:48
just as we require reading, writing, arithmetic, American history,
69
263000
6000
就像我们要求学生必修英文读写，算术，美国历史
04:54
so we should have a curriculum on facts
70
269000
4000
我们也应该将世界宗教知识
04:58
about all the religions of the world --
71
273000
2000
列入必修科目中
05:00
about their history, about their creeds, about their texts,
72
275000
6000
介绍各宗教的历史，教义，经典
05:06
their music, their symbolisms, their prohibitions, their requirements.
73
281000
4000
音乐，符号，禁忌，清规等等
05:11
And this should be presented factually, straightforwardly,
74
286000
5000
内容应该有事实根据，直言不讳
05:16
with no particular spin, to all of the children in the country.
75
291000
6000
不带任何偏见地教给全国的儿童
05:23
And as long as you teach them that,
76
298000
3000
只要你教了这些
05:26
you can teach them anything else you like.
77
301000
3000
你再教什么都行
05:29
That, I think, is maximal tolerance for religious freedom.
78
304000
5000
这是我认为给予宗教自由的最大空间
05:34
As long as you inform your children about other religions,
79
309000
5000
只要让孩子了解了其他宗教信仰
05:39
then you may -- and as early as you like and whatever you like --
80
314000
3000
父母可以在任何时候
05:42
teach them whatever creed you want them to learn.
81
317000
3000
教给孩子任何父母想要他们知道的宗教信仰
05:45
But also let them know about other religions.
82
320000
3000
同时也让孩子了解其他的宗教信仰
05:48
Now why do I say that?
83
323000
3000
为什么我会提出这个观点？
05:52
Because democracy depends on an informed citizenship.
84
327000
6000
因为民主制度取决于它的公民能否充分获得资讯
05:59
Informed consent is the very bedrock
85
334000
3000
这也就是“知情同意”原则
06:02
of our understanding of democracy.
86
337000
3000
是我们建立民主素养的根本
06:06
Misinformed consent is not worth it.
87
341000
4000
在不知情的情况下所作的决定并无意义
06:10
It's like a coin flip; it doesn't count really.
88
345000
3000
就像掷骰子做决定一样没有意义
06:13
Democracy depends on informed consent.
89
348000
3000
民主制度以“知情同意”为基石
06:16
This is the way we treat people as responsible adults.
90
351000
4000
视人民为能承担责任的成年人
06:20
Now, children below the age of consent are a special case.
91
355000
8000
不过，未成年的孩子们是特例
06:30
I'm going to use a word that Pastor Rick just used --
92
365000
6000
我想引用华里克牧师刚刚讲过的--
06:36
parents are stewards of their children.
93
371000
2000
父母虽然是孩子的监护人
06:38
They don't own them.
94
373000
3000
但孩子并不属于他们
06:41
You can't own your children.
95
376000
2000
你不能拥有你的孩子
06:43
You have a responsibility to the world,
96
378000
3000
为人父母者有义务
06:46
to the state, to them, to take care of them right.
97
381000
5000
对这个国家以及孩子，给予他们照顾
06:52
You may teach them whatever creed you think is most important,
98
387000
6000
父母可以教导孩子他们认为最重要的宗教信仰
06:58
but I say you have a responsibility to let them be informed
99
393000
5000
不过我认为父母也有责任
07:03
about all the other creeds in the world, too.
100
398000
4000
让孩子了解到其他宗教
07:07
The reason I've taken this time is I've been fascinated to hear
101
402000
4000
我之所以花时间谈论这个观点
07:11
some of the reactions to this.
102
406000
2000
是因为一些反响很有意思
07:14
One reviewer for a Roman Catholic newspaper called it "totalitarian."
103
409000
7000
一位天主教评论家称此观点为”极权主义“
07:21
It strikes me as practically libertarian.
104
416000
4000
我却认为这观点实际是“自由主义”的
07:26
Is it totalitarian to require reading, writing and arithmetic?
105
421000
3000
“极权主义”要求必修英文读写和算术吗？
07:29
I don't think so.
106
424000
2000
我不这么认为
07:31
All I'm saying is -- facts. Facts only.
107
426000
4000
我只提倡老师教真实的知识
07:35
No values, just facts about all the world's religions.
108
430000
5000
不是价值观，只是关于世界宗教的知识
07:41
Another reviewer called it "hilarious."
109
436000
3000
另一个评论家说我的观点”很可笑“
07:44
Well, I'm really bothered by the fact
110
439000
4000
我实在想不通
07:48
that anybody would think that was hilarious.
111
443000
3000
为什么会有人觉得这个提议很可笑
07:51
It seems to me to be such a plausible,
112
446000
3000
我觉得这个观点
07:55
natural extension of the democratic principles we already have,
113
450000
4000
是我们已有的民主原则的自然延伸
07:59
that I'm shocked to think anybody would find that just ridiculous.
114
454000
6000
我很诧异有人会觉得这个想法荒唐
08:05
I know many religions are so anxious about preserving the purity
115
460000
7000
我知道很多宗教都很担忧孩子们在信仰上的单纯性
08:12
of their faith among their children that they are intent
116
467000
5000
因此不让他们知道
08:17
on keeping their children ignorant of other faiths.
117
472000
3000
其他的宗教信仰
08:22
I don't think that's defensible, but I'd really be pleased
118
477000
4000
我不认为这是一个站得住脚的理论
08:26
to get your answers on that -- any reactions to that -- later.
119
481000
3000
但是我很乐意听到任何对这件事上的评论--但请等我讲完
08:29
But now I'm going to move on.
120
484000
2000
言归正传
08:31
Back to the cow.
121
486000
2000
我们再来讲这只牛
08:33
This picture, which I pulled off the web --
122
488000
2000
这张照片是我从网上下载下来的
08:36
the fellow on the left is really an important part of this picture.
123
491000
3000
左边这个人是照片中的很重要的一部分
08:39
That's the steward.
124
494000
2000
他是这头牛的监护人
08:41
Cows couldn't live without human stewards -- they're domesticated.
125
496000
5000
奶牛不可能在没有监护人的情况下生存--因为它们已经被驯养了
08:46
They're a sort of ectosymbiont.
126
501000
4000
这是一种生态上讲的共生关系
08:50
They depend on us for their survival.
127
505000
5000
牛需要依靠人类才能生活下去
08:55
And Pastor Rick was just talking about sheep.
128
510000
3000
华里克牧师刚刚讲到羊
08:58
I'm going to talk about sheep, too.
129
513000
2000
我也要讲羊
09:00
There's a lot of serendipitous convergence here.
130
515000
3000
人和羊之间有很多偶然发生的交集
09:04
How clever it was of sheep to acquire shepherds!
131
519000
4000
羊竟然聪明到和牧羊人一同生活！
09:10
Think of what this got them.
132
525000
2000
想想看这对羊有什么好处
09:12
They could outsource all their problems --
133
527000
3000
他们把所有问题都转交给了牧羊人
09:15
protection from predators, food finding, health maintenance.
134
530000
5000
比如免受捕食者的威胁，觅食以及保持健康等等
09:22
The only cost in most flocks is a loss of free mating.
135
537000
6000
唯一的成本是不能自由交配
09:29
What a deal.
136
544000
2000
挺划算的
09:31
"How clever of sheep!" you might say.
137
546000
2000
你可能会说：”羊还挺聪明的！“
09:33
Except, of course, it wasn't the sheep's cleverness.
138
548000
2000
不过，当然不是羊聪明
09:35
We all know sheep are not exactly rocket scientists -- they're not very smart.
139
550000
5000
谁都知道羊又不是火箭科学家，它们不怎么聪明
09:40
It wasn't the cleverness of the sheep at all.
140
555000
3000
这根本不是羊的智慧
09:43
They were clueless.
141
558000
2000
它们对这件事毫不知情
09:45
But it was a very clever move.
142
560000
3000
但这的确是个很聪明的举动
09:48
Whose clever move was it?
143
563000
2000
谁的聪明举动呢？
09:50
It was a clever move of natural selection itself.
144
565000
3000
是“自然选择”本身的聪明举动
09:53
Francis Crick, the co-discoverer of the structure of DNA
145
568000
6000
弗朗西斯.克里克，DNA结构的发明者之一
09:59
with Jim Watson, once joked about what he called Orgel's Second Rule.
146
574000
5000
与吉姆.华生，曾顽皮地以分子生物学家雷斯利奥杰尔的名义
10:04
Leslie Orgel is still a molecular biologist, brilliant guy,
147
579000
6000
命名了一个”奥杰尔第二定律“
10:10
and Orgel's Second Rule is: Evolution is cleverer than you are.
148
585000
3000
奥杰尔第二定律讲的是：演化比你高明。
10:14
Now, that is not Intelligent Design -- not from Francis Crick.
149
589000
6000
克里克指的当然不是“智慧设计”
10:21
Evolution is cleverer than you are.
150
596000
2000
演化是比你要高明
10:23
If you understand Orgel's Second Rule, then you understand
151
598000
3000
如果你理解“奥杰尔第二定律”，你就能理解
10:26
why the Intelligent Design movement is basically a hoax.
152
601000
6000
为什么“智慧设计”运动是一场骗局
10:33
The designs discovered by the process of natural selection
153
608000
4000
“自然选择”过程中的种种设计
10:37
are brilliant, unbelievably brilliant.
154
612000
3000
是非常了不起的
10:40
Again and again biologists are fascinated with the brilliance of what's discovered.
155
615000
5000
一次又一次让生物学家叹为观止
10:45
But the process itself is without purpose,
156
620000
3000
但是“自然选择”过程本身并无目的
10:48
without foresight, without design.
157
623000
3000
也没有预见，没有设计
10:51
When I was here four years ago,
158
626000
2000
当我四年前站在这里的时候
10:53
I told the story about an ant climbing a blade of grass.
159
628000
2000
我讲了一个故事，说一只蚂蚁在爬一株草
10:55
And why was the ant doing it?
160
630000
2000
蚂蚁为什么要这么做？
10:57
Well, it's because its brain had been infected with a lancet fluke that was --
161
632000
5000
蚂蚁的脑子感染了柳叶吸虫
11:02
needed to get into the belly of a sheep or a cow in order to reproduce.
162
637000
5000
这种虫必须在牛羊的体内繁殖，所以蚂蚁爬上草，让牛羊吃掉
11:07
It was sort of a spooky story.
163
642000
2000
听起来有点吓人
11:09
And I think some people may have misunderstood.
164
644000
2000
但是我觉得有些人可能误解了
11:11
Lancet flukes aren't smart.
165
646000
2000
柳叶吸虫并不聪明
11:13
I submit that the intelligence of a lancet fluke is down there
166
648000
5000
我觉得一只柳叶吸虫的智商大概会在
11:18
somewhere between petunia and carrot.
167
653000
2000
牵牛花和胡萝卜之间
11:20
They're not really bright. They don't have to be.
168
655000
2000
它们并不聪明，也用不着变聪明
11:22
The lesson we learn from this is
169
657000
2000
这个故事告诉我们
11:24
you don't have to have a mind to be a beneficiary.
170
659000
3000
要获得好处你不必有头脑
11:27
The design is there in nature, but it's not in anybody's head.
171
662000
5000
设计就在大自然中，而不在任何人的头脑中
11:32
It doesn't have to be.
172
667000
2000
因为根本不必要。
11:34
That's the way evolution works.
173
669000
2000
这就是演化的工作方式
11:36
The question -- was domestication good for sheep?
174
671000
2000
问题是：驯养是否对羊群有利呢？
11:38
It was great for their genetic fitness.
175
673000
2000
驯养对他们的基因适应极有好处
11:40
And here I want to remind you of a wonderful point
176
675000
4000
在这里我想让大家重温一个很精彩的论点
11:44
that Paul MacCready made at TED three years ago.
177
679000
3000
是保罗.格雷迪三年前在TED提出来的
11:47
Here's what he said.
178
682000
2000
他说
11:49
10,000 years ago at the dawn of agriculture,
179
684000
3000
在一万年前农业刚刚萌芽的时候
11:52
human population, plus livestock and pets, was approximately
180
687000
3000
人类的数量，加上家畜和宠物
11:55
a tenth of one per cent of the terrestrial vertebrae landmass.
181
690000
5000
大约只占陆生的脊椎动物总数的十分之一
12:00
That was just 10,000 years ago.
182
695000
2000
这不过是一万年前的情况
12:02
Yesterday, in biological terms.
183
697000
3000
在生物史上就像昨天一样近
12:05
What is it today? Does anybody remember what he told us?
184
700000
3000
今天呢？有没有人记得格雷迪告诉我们什么？
12:09
98 percent.
185
704000
2000
百分之九十八
12:11
That is what we have done on this planet.
186
706000
3000
这就是我们在这个星球上做的
12:14
Now, I talked to Paul afterwards.
187
709000
2000
后来我找到了保罗
12:16
I wanted to check to find out how he'd calculated this,
188
711000
2000
想向他求证他是怎么计算出这个数据的
12:18
and get the sources and so forth.
189
713000
2000
以及他的资料来源，等等
12:20
And he gave me a paper that he had written on this.
190
715000
3000
他给了我一篇他写的这个题目的论文
12:23
There was a passage in it which he did not present here
191
718000
2000
里面有一段他演讲里没有提到
12:25
and I think it is so good I'm going to read it to you.
192
720000
3000
很有价值，我念给大家听
12:28
"Over billions of years on a unique sphere,
193
723000
3000
几十亿年前，在一颗独特的星球表面
12:31
chance has painted a thin covering of life:
194
726000
3000
“偶然性”涂抹了一层薄薄的生物
12:34
complex, improbable, wonderful and fragile.
195
729000
4000
这些生物结构复杂，外形奇特，既美丽又脆弱
12:38
Suddenly, we humans, a recently arrived species
196
733000
3000
突然，人类，一个不久前才出现的物种
12:41
no longer subject to the checks and balances inherent in nature,
197
736000
3000
全然不受自然界的制衡
12:44
have grown in population, technology and intelligence to a position of terrible power.
198
739000
5000
除了数量激增，还发明出具有可怕力量的科技和文明
12:49
We now wield the paintbrush."
199
744000
2000
此刻我们掌握了那支创造的画笔
12:52
We heard about the atmosphere as a thin layer of varnish.
200
747000
3000
我们听说过大气层像一层薄薄的亮油漆
12:55
Life itself is just a thin coat of paint on this planet.
201
750000
4000
生物也只是这个星球上的一层薄薄的油漆
12:59
And we're the ones that hold the paintbrush.
202
754000
2000
而今是我们拿着油漆刷子
13:01
And how can we do that?
203
756000
3000
我们将如何使用它呢？
13:04
The key to our domination of the planet is culture,
204
759000
4000
人类统治地球的关键在于我们的文化
13:08
and the key to culture is religion.
205
763000
2000
而文化的核心是宗教
13:11
Suppose Martian scientists came to Earth.
206
766000
3000
设想若有一天火星科学家来到了地球
13:14
They would be puzzled by many things.
207
769000
3000
一定会对很多事情产生疑惑
13:19
Anybody know what this is?
208
774000
2000
有人知道这是什么吗？
13:21
I'll tell you what it is.
209
776000
2000
让我告诉你
13:23
This is a million people gathering on the banks of the Ganges in 2001,
210
778000
4000
这是2001年，在恒河边上百万人聚会的盛况
13:27
perhaps the largest single gathering of human beings ever,
211
782000
4000
可能这是有史以来人数最多的一次集会
13:31
as seen from satellite photograph.
212
786000
2000
在卫星照片上
13:33
Here's a big crowd.
213
788000
1000
人山人海
13:34
Here's another crowd in Mecca.
214
789000
2000
这是另一个在麦加的集会
13:36
Martians would be amazed by this.
215
791000
3000
火星人将会叹为观止
13:39
They'd want to know how it originated, what it was for and how it perpetuates itself.
216
794000
5000
他们会想知道这些现象是怎么产生的，目的是什么，怎样持续下去
13:44
Actually, I'm going to pass over this.
217
799000
2000
事实上我要先跳过这张
13:47
The ant isn't alone.
218
802000
2000
蚂蚁并不孤单
13:49
There's all sorts of wonderful cases of species.
219
804000
3000
物种有各种各样精彩的例子
13:52
In that case, a parasite gets into a mouse
220
807000
6000
比如，一只寄生虫进入了老鼠身体里
13:58
and it needs to get into the belly of a cat.
221
813000
2000
因为它需要进到猫肚子里
14:00
And it turns the mouse into Mighty Mouse -- it makes it fearless,
222
815000
2000
于是它让这只老鼠变成了“巨鼠”-- 老鼠变得毫不畏惧
14:02
so it runs out in the open, where it'll be eaten by a cat.
223
817000
3000
自己送上门给猫吃
14:05
True story.
224
820000
2000
真实的故事
14:07
In other words, we have these hijackers --
225
822000
2000
换句话说，生物界也有“劫机者”
14:09
you've seen this slide before, from four years ago --
226
824000
3000
这张照片我四年前也展示过
14:12
a parasite that infects the brain
227
827000
2000
寄生虫感染了宿主的脑子
14:14
and induces even suicidal behavior on behalf of a cause
228
829000
3000
诱导宿主做出甚至自杀的行为
14:17
other than one's own genetic fitness.
229
832000
2000
而不是宿主的“基因适应”。
14:19
Does that ever happen to us?
230
834000
3000
这些事在人类身上发生过吗？
14:22
Yes, it does -- quite wonderfully.
231
837000
4000
是的，发生过，而且相当神奇
14:27
The Arabic word "Islam" means "submission."
232
842000
2000
在阿拉伯语中”伊斯兰”是顺服的意思
14:29
It means "surrender of self-interest to the will of Allah."
233
844000
3000
是说个人利益要顺从真主安拉的意愿
14:32
But I'm not just talking about Islam.
234
847000
2000
我指的不只是伊斯兰教
14:34
I'm talking also about Christianity.
235
849000
2000
基督教也是如此
14:36
This is a parchment music page that I found in a Paris bookstall 50 years ago.
236
851000
5000
这张乐谱是我五十年前在巴黎某书摊上找到的
14:41
And on it it says, in Latin:
237
856000
2000
用拉丁文写道：
14:44
"Semen est verbum Dei. Sator autem Christus.
238
859000
3000
（拉丁文）
14:47
The word of God is the seed and the sower of the seed is Christ."
239
862000
4000
“上帝的话是种子，播种的是基督”
14:51
Same idea! Well, not quite.
240
866000
2000
相似的道理，不过不完全是
14:53
But in fact, Christians, too, glory in the fact that they have surrendered to God.
241
868000
9000
事实上，基督徒以顺从上帝为光荣
15:02
I'll give you a few quotes.
242
877000
1000
我引用了几段话：
15:03
"The heart of worship is surrender.
243
878000
3000
“敬拜的心降伏了
15:06
Surrendered people obey God's words, even if it doesn't make sense."
244
881000
4000
神的旨意纵使不合情理，降伏的人也会服从。”
15:11
Those words are by Rick Warren.
245
886000
2000
这是华里克牧师说的
15:13
Those are from "The Purpose Driven Life."
246
888000
3000
出自他的《标杆人生》这本书
15:17
And I want to turn now, briefly, to talk about that book, which I've read.
247
892000
3000
我读了这本书，现在我想简单谈谈这本书
15:20
You've all got a copy.
248
895000
2000
大家都有这本书
15:22
You've just heard the man.
249
897000
2000
刚刚也听过他的演讲
15:24
And what I want to do now is say a bit about this book from the design standpoint,
250
899000
5000
我想从设计的角度去谈谈这本书
15:29
because I think it's actually a brilliant book.
251
904000
3000
因为我觉得这本书写的真的很棒
15:32
First of all, the goal.
252
907000
2000
首先，是这本书的宗旨
15:34
And you heard just now what the goal is.
253
909000
2000
大家刚才都已经听过了
15:36
It's to bring purpose to the lives of millions, and he has succeeded.
254
911000
3000
宗旨是为人们阐明生命的意义，他也成功地做到了这一点
15:39
Is it a good goal?
255
914000
2000
这是一个好的宗旨吗？
15:41
In itself, I'm sure we all agree, it is a wonderful goal.
256
916000
2000
就它本身而言，我相信我们都认同这是一个很好的宗旨
15:43
He's absolutely right.
257
918000
2000
华里克牧师讲的没错
15:45
There are lots of people out there who don't have purpose in their life,
258
920000
3000
很多人的生命没有“标杆”
15:48
and bringing purpose to their life is a wonderful goal.
259
923000
3000
为他们的生命树立“标杆”是一个非常好的宗旨
15:51
I give him an A+ on this.
260
926000
2000
这一点我给他打A+
15:55
Is the goal achieved?
261
930000
3000
这个宗旨是否达到了呢？
15:58
Yes.
262
933000
2000
达到了
16:00
30 million copies of this book.
263
935000
4000
这本书卖了三千万本
16:05
Al Gore, eat your heart out.
264
940000
2000
戈尔肯定羡慕死了
16:07
(Laughter)
265
942000
3000
（笑声）
16:10
Just exactly what Al is trying to do, Rick is doing.
266
945000
4000
戈尔想做的事情，华里克已经做了
16:14
This is a fantastic achievement.
267
949000
3000
这是一个了不起的成就
16:17
And, the means -- how does he do it?
268
952000
5000
方法--他是怎么做到的呢？
16:22
It's a brilliant redesign of traditional religious themes --
269
957000
3000
他高明地重新设计了传统的宗教主题
16:25
updating them, quietly dropping obsolete features,
270
960000
3000
更新他们，悄悄地去掉了过时的部分
16:28
putting new interpretations on other features.
271
963000
2000
给予新的解释
16:30
This is the evolution of religion that's been going on for thousands of years,
272
965000
3000
这就是几千年来宗教进化的一个例子
16:33
and he's just the latest brilliant practitioner of it.
273
968000
3000
他只是最近的一个高明的参与者
16:38
I don't have to tell you this.
274
973000
2000
这点各位已经知道了
16:40
You've just heard the man.
275
975000
2000
你们听过他的演讲
16:42
Excellent insights into human psychology, wise advice on every page.
276
977000
4000
他洞察人心，字字珠玑
16:46
Moreover, he invites us to look under the hood.
277
981000
4000
更多的是，他邀请读者深入了解他的观点
16:50
I really appreciated that.
278
985000
2000
我很赞赏他的做法
16:52
For instance, he has an appendix where he explains
279
987000
2000
举例来说，书中附录解释了
16:54
his choice of translations of different Bible verses.
280
989000
3000
他选择翻译不同的圣经章节的原因
16:57
The book is clear, vivid, accessible, beautifully formatted.
281
992000
6000
书写得清晰易懂，生动，排版也很美观
17:04
Just enough repetition.
282
999000
2000
重复的地方恰到好处
17:06
That's really important.
283
1001000
2000
这是非常重要的一点
17:08
Every time you read it or say it, you make another copy in your brain.
284
1003000
4000
每读一次，脑中就更熟悉
17:13
Every time you read it or say it, you make another copy in your brain.
285
1008000
4000
每读一次，脑中就更熟悉
17:17
(Laughter)
286
1012000
1000
（笑声）
17:18
With me, everybody -- every time you read it or say it,
287
1013000
4000
跟我一起说，每读一次
17:22
you make another copy in your brain.
288
1017000
2000
脑中就更熟悉
17:24
Thank you.
289
1019000
2000
谢谢
17:26
And now we come to my problem.
290
1021000
2000
下面我想提一些问题
17:28
Because I'm absolutely sincere in my appreciation
291
1023000
4000
因为我发自肺腑地
17:32
of all that I've said about this book.
292
1027000
2000
欣赏这本书
17:34
But I wish it were better.
293
1029000
2000
因此希望这本书能变得更好
17:36
I have some problems with the book.
294
1031000
2000
我对书中的内容有几个问题
17:38
And it would just be insincere of me not to address those problems.
295
1033000
4000
如果我不提出来的话，就是不负责任了
17:42
I wish he could do this with a revision,
296
1037000
4000
我希望华里克牧师能在修订本中
17:46
a Mark 2 version of his book.
297
1041000
3000
解决这些问题
17:50
"The truth will set you free" --
298
1045000
2000
“真理会让你得到自由”
17:52
that's what it says in the Bible, and it's something that I want to live by, too.
299
1047000
5000
这是圣经里说的，也是我的座右铭
17:57
My problem is, some of the bits in it I don't think are true.
300
1052000
5000
但我对几点并不认同
18:02
Now some of this is a difference of opinion,
301
1057000
4000
有些只是意见上的分歧
18:07
and that's not my main complaint.
302
1062000
2000
这些不是我主要想提出来的
18:09
That's worth mentioning.
303
1064000
2000
我得强调这一点
18:11
Here's a passage -- it's very much what he said, anyway.
304
1066000
2000
这里我以书里的一段话为例
18:13
"If there was no God we would all be accidents,
305
1068000
2000
“如果没有神，我们的出现就是一种偶然，
18:15
the result of astronomical random chance in the Universe.
306
1070000
3000
是宇宙中的随机出现的产物
18:18
You could stop reading this book because life
307
1073000
3000
如果如此，你大可停止读这本书
18:21
would have no purpose or meaning or significance.
308
1076000
3000
因为生命将是没有目标，没有意义的，微不足道的
18:24
There would be no right or wrong and no hope beyond your brief years on Earth."
309
1079000
3000
地球上将会没有是非之分，短暂的一生结束后将会没有任何盼望
18:27
Now, I just do not believe that.
310
1082000
2000
我认为不是这样
18:29
By the way, I find Homer Groening's film
311
1084000
4000
顺便提一句，我发现霍磨.格勒宁的电影
18:33
presented a beautiful alternative to that very claim.
312
1088000
4000
展现了另一种美好的选择
18:37
Yes, there is meaning and a reason for right or wrong.
313
1092000
4000
是的，对与错有它的意义和道理
18:41
We don't need a belief in God to be good or to have meaning in us.
314
1096000
6000
我们不需要信仰上帝才能行善，或者过上有意义的人生
18:47
But that is just a difference of opinion.
315
1102000
5000
但是这只是一个意见上的分歧
18:52
That's not what I'm really worried about.
316
1107000
2000
这不是我真正想强调的
18:54
How about this -- "God designed this planet's environment just so we could live in it."
317
1109000
5000
再听听这个--”上帝将地球设计成适合人类居住的环境“
19:00
I'm afraid that a lot of people take that sentiment to mean
318
1115000
5000
我担心很多人会把这句话理解成
19:05
that we don't have to do the sorts of things that Al Gore
319
1120000
2000
我们不需要去做
19:07
is trying so hard to get us to do.
320
1122000
2000
戈尔先生费了那么大劲说服我们去做的
19:09
I'm not happy with that sentiment at all.
321
1124000
3000
我一点也不赞同这个观点
19:12
And then I find this -- "All the evidence available in the biological sciences
322
1127000
4000
然后我找到了这个--”所有生物学提供的证据
19:16
supports the core proposition that the cosmos is especially designed whole
323
1131000
4000
都证明宇宙是特殊设计给
19:20
with life and mankind as its fundamental goal and purpose,
324
1135000
3000
生物和人类，用于实现他们的目标和意义
19:23
a whole in which all facets of reality have their meaning
325
1138000
2000
宇宙中的一切真相及其诠释，都是为了
19:25
and explanation in this central fact."
326
1140000
2000
这个事实。“
19:27
Well, that's Michael Denton. He's a creationist.
327
1142000
3000
这是创造论者迈克尔登顿说的
19:30
And here I think, "Wait a minute."
328
1145000
3000
读到这，我想，“等等。”
19:33
I read this again.
329
1148000
2000
我又读了一遍
19:35
I read it three or four times and I think,
330
1150000
2000
我读了三四次，然后我想
19:37
"Is he really endorsing intelligent design?
331
1152000
2000
“他是在主张【智慧设计论】吗？
19:39
Is he endorsing creationism here?"
332
1154000
2000
还是在主张【创造论】？”
19:41
And you can't tell.
333
1156000
2000
难以分辨
19:43
So I'm sort of thinking, "Well, I don't know,
334
1158000
2000
我就想：我分辨不出
19:45
I don't know if I want to get upset with this yet."
335
1160000
2000
还是先别为了这个问题自寻烦恼了。“
19:47
But then I read on and I read this: "First, Noah had never seen rain,
336
1162000
4000
然后我接着读：“首先，诺亚从没见过雨，
19:51
because prior to the flood God irrigated the earth from the ground up."
337
1166000
4000
因为在大洪水之前神从地底下浇灌地球。”
19:56
I wish that sentence weren't in there, because I think it is false.
338
1171000
5000
我希望书里没写这句话，因为我认为它是错的
20:01
And I think that thinking this way about the history of the planet,
339
1176000
3000
我认为，关于这个行星的历史的这种想法
20:04
after we've just been hearing about the history
340
1179000
3000
就是我们刚刚听到的
20:07
of the planet over millions of years,
341
1182000
3000
关于地球数百万年历史的想法
20:11
discourages people from scientific understanding.
342
1186000
3000
阻碍了人们的科学思维。
20:14
Now, Rick Warren uses scientific terms and scientific factoids
343
1189000
8000
那么，华里克用一种很有趣的方式
20:22
and information in a very interesting way.
344
1197000
3000
运用科学名词以及科学事实阐述他的观点
20:25
Here's one: "God deliberately shaped and formed you to serve him
345
1200000
3000
比如：“神刻意将你塑造成一个独一无二的人
20:28
in a way that makes your ministry unique.
346
1203000
2000
使你发挥独一无二的才能来侍奉他。
20:30
He carefully mixed the DNA cocktail that created you."
347
1205000
5000
他费心调配出基因组合创造了你。”
20:37
I think that's false.
348
1212000
3000
我认为这也是错误的。
20:40
Now maybe we want to treat it as metaphorical.
349
1215000
3000
也许我们可以把这句话看做一种比喻的说法
20:43
Here's another one -- "For instance, your brain can store 100 trillion facts.
350
1218000
4000
另外一个例子是：“例如，你的大脑可以存储一百万亿个信息。
20:47
Your mind can handle 15,000 decisions a second."
351
1222000
3000
你的思维在一秒钟可以做一万五千个决定。”
20:50
Well, it would be interesting to find the interpretation where I would accept that.
352
1225000
4000
我很难接受这样的解释
20:54
There might be some way of treating that as true.
353
1229000
3000
说不定在某些情况下可以成立吧
20:57
"Anthropologists have noted that worship is a universal urge,
354
1232000
4000
“人类学家发现崇拜神是人类共同的内在需求，
21:01
hardwired by God into the very fiber of our being,
355
1236000
3000
神将这种需求深植与我们的构造中，
21:04
an inbuilt need to connect with God."
356
1239000
3000
使我们必须与神相通。”
21:08
Well, there's a sense which I agree with him,
357
1243000
2000
这一点我同意
21:10
except I think it has an evolutionary explanation.
358
1245000
2000
但是我认为用进化论也可以解释
21:12
And what I find deeply troubling in this book
359
1247000
4000
这本书让我最想不通的地方
21:16
is that he seems to be arguing that if you want to be moral,
360
1251000
4000
是华里克说，如果人要有道德
21:20
if you want to have meaning in your life,
361
1255000
2000
如果你希望你的生命是有意义的
21:22
you have to be an Intelligent Designer -- you have to deny
362
1257000
4000
你必须是一个【智慧设计论】者--你必须摒弃
21:26
the theory of evolution by natural selection.
363
1261000
3000
自然选择的进化论说法
21:29
And I think, on the contrary, that it is very important to solving
364
1264000
3000
相反，我认为要想解决世上的问题
21:32
the world's problems that we take evolutionary biology seriously.
365
1267000
4000
我们必须认真考虑进化论
21:37
Whose truth are we going to listen to?
366
1272000
2000
问题是我们要相信谁的真理？
21:40
Well, this from "The Purpose Driven Life" --
367
1275000
3000
同样在《标杆人生》中：
21:43
"The Bible must become the authoritative standard for my life,
368
1278000
3000
“圣经必须是我人生中的最高授权
21:46
the compass I rely on for direction, the counsel I listen to
369
1281000
3000
是引导我人生的方向盘和导师
21:49
for making wise decisions and the benchmark I use for evaluating everything."
370
1284000
4000
更是使我能做出明知的决定和衡量万事的准绳。”
21:53
Well maybe, OK, but what's going to follow from this?
371
1288000
5000
就算是这样，那么听从这个观点会导致什么后果呢？
21:58
And here's one that does concern me.
372
1293000
3000
有一个后果令我担心
22:02
Remember I quoted him before with this line --
373
1297000
3000
我之前引用过这句话：
22:05
"Surrendered people obey God's word, even if it doesn't make sense."
374
1300000
3000
“降服的人顺从上帝的话，即使不合情理。”
22:10
And that's a problem.
375
1305000
4000
这是问题所在
22:15
"Don't ever argue with the Devil.
376
1310000
2000
“不要和恶魔争吵。
22:17
He's better at arguing than you are, having had thousands of years to practice."
377
1312000
4000
他争论的水平比你高很多，因为他有几千年的造诣。”
22:21
Now Rick Warren didn't invent this clever move.
378
1316000
4000
华里克并没有发明这个理论
22:25
It's an old move.
379
1320000
2000
很早就有了
22:27
It's a very clever adaptation of religions.
380
1322000
3000
这是宗教非常聪明的应变之道
22:30
It's a wildcard for disarming any reasonable criticism.
381
1325000
4000
是消除各种合理质疑的万能王牌
22:35
"You don't like my interpretation?
382
1330000
2000
“你不认同我的解释？
22:37
You've got a reasonable objection to it?
383
1332000
2000
你有合理的反对理由是吗？
22:39
Don't listen, don't listen!
384
1334000
2000
不要听，不要听
22:41
That's the Devil speaking."
385
1336000
2000
这是恶魔的话。”
22:44
This discourages the sort of reasoning citizenship
386
1339000
5000
这样的策略阻碍了，我认为我们应该具有的
22:49
it seems to me that we want to have.
387
1344000
3000
理性的辨析能力
22:52
I've got one more problem, then I'm through.
388
1347000
3000
我还要说最后一个问题
22:55
And I'd really like to get a response if Rick is able to do it.
389
1350000
5000
我希望华里克牧师能够回答
23:00
"In the Great Commission, Jesus said, 'Go to all people of all nations
390
1355000
3000
“在基督教的【大使命】中，耶稣说‘你们要去，使万民做我的门徒
23:03
and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father,
391
1358000
3000
奉圣父、圣子、圣灵之名给他们受洗
23:06
the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to do everything I've told you.'"
392
1361000
3000
凡我所吩咐你们的，都教他们遵守。”
23:09
The Bible says Jesus is the only one who can save the world.
393
1364000
5000
圣经上记载耶稣是唯一能拯救这个世界的
23:14
Now here we've seen many wonderful maps of the world
394
1369000
3000
这几天我们看过好多张世界地图
23:17
in the last day or so.
395
1372000
2000
都很精美
23:19
Here's one, not as beautiful as the others.
396
1374000
2000
但是这一张并没有其它的漂亮
23:21
It simply shows the religions of the world.
397
1376000
3000
它只标出世界上所有宗教
23:24
And here's one that shows the sort of current breakdown of the different religions.
398
1379000
5000
也标示了目前各种宗教的分类
23:29
Now do we really want to commit ourselves to engulfing
399
1384000
9000
我们真的要投身于消灭其它的宗教
23:38
all the other religions when their holy books are telling them,
400
1393000
6000
当那些宗教的文献说
23:44
"Don't listen to the other side, that's just Satan talking!"
401
1399000
5000
“别听他们的，因为那是撒旦的话！”
23:49
It seems to me that that's a very problematic ship
402
1404000
6000
如果我们这样做
23:55
to get on for the future.
403
1410000
3000
真是前景堪忧
23:58
I found this sign as I was driving to Maine recently,
404
1413000
5000
最近我开车到缅因州时，发现了教堂门口的告示
24:03
in front of a church -- "Good without God becomes zero."
405
1418000
2000
“Good这个词少了God只会剩下0”
24:05
Sort of cute.
406
1420000
2000
挺可爱
24:07
A very clever little meme.
407
1422000
2000
很聪明的小模因(meme)
24:11
I don't believe it and I think this idea, popular as it is -- not in this guise
408
1426000
7000
我不接受这种模因所传递的思想，无论它多流行
24:18
but in general -- is itself one of the main problems that we face.
409
1433000
4000
整体上，这类思想传递是我们面对的大问题之一
24:22
If you are like me, you know many wonderful, committed, engaged
410
1437000
7000
如果你像我一样，你知道很多卓越、积极、认真的
24:29
atheists, agnostics, who are being very good without God.
411
1444000
6000
无神论者、不可知论者，心中没有神却也是很好的人
24:35
And you also know many religious people who hide behind their sanctity
412
1450000
5000
应该也知道很多圣徒，在虔诚圣洁的表面下
24:40
instead of doing good works.
413
1455000
2000
不做好事
24:42
So, I wish we could drop this meme.
414
1457000
4000
所以，我希望我们能废除这种模因
24:46
I wish this meme would go extinct.
415
1461000
2000
我希望这种模因最好消失
24:48
Thanks very much for your attention.
416
1463000
2000
谢谢各位
24:50
(Applause)
417
1465000
3000
（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Dan Dennett - Philosopher, cognitive scientistDan Dennett thinks that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes.
Why you should listen
One of our most important living philosophers, Dan Dennett is best known for his provocative and controversial arguments that human consciousness and free will are the result of physical processes in the brain. He argues that the brain's computational circuitry fools us into thinking we know more than we do, and that what we call consciousness — isn't. His 2003 book "Freedom Evolves" explores how our brains evolved to give us -- and only us -- the kind of freedom that matters, while 2006's "Breaking the Spell" examines belief through the lens of biology.
This mind-shifting perspective on the mind itself has distinguished Dennett's career as a philosopher and cognitive scientist. And while the philosophy community has never quite known what to make of Dennett (he defies easy categorization, and refuses to affiliate himself with accepted schools of thought), his computational approach to understanding the brain has made him, as Edge's John Brockman writes, “the philosopher of choice of the AI community.”
“It's tempting to say that Dennett has never met a robot he didn't like, and that what he likes most about them is that they are philosophical experiments,” Harry Blume wrote in the Atlantic Monthly in 1998. “To the question of whether machines can attain high-order intelligence, Dennett makes this provocative answer: ‘The best reason for believing that robots might some day become conscious is that we human beings are conscious, and we are a sort of robot ourselves.'"
In recent years, Dennett has become outspoken in his atheism, and his 2006 book Breaking the Spell calls for religion to be studied through the scientific lens of evolutionary biology. Dennett regards religion as a natural -- rather than supernatural -- phenomenon, and urges schools to break the taboo against empirical examination of religion. He argues that religion's influence over human behavior is precisely what makes gaining a rational understanding of it so necessary: “If we don't understand religion, we're going to miss our chance to improve the world in the 21st century.”
Dennett's landmark books include The Mind's I, co-edited with Douglas Hofstaedter, Consciousness Explained, and Darwin's Dangerous Idea. Read an excerpt from his 2013 book, Intuition Pumps, in the Guardian >>
Dan Dennett | Speaker | TED.com