TED2012
Bryan Stevenson: We need to talk about an injustice
Bryan Stevenson：我們需要談談不正義
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這是一個引人入勝的演講─透過引述外婆和Rosa Parks(美國民權主義行動者)的話─人權律師 Bryan Stevenson分享有關美國司法系統的一些令人難受的事實，用種族間大規模不平等待遇做為開場：三分之一的美國黑人在他們生命中某些時候曾坐過牢。這些隱藏在美國歷史中未被檢視的問題，極少能這樣坦白、充滿見解和深具說服力地被討論。
Bryan Stevenson - Public-interest lawyer
Bryan Stevenson is the founder and executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative, fighting poverty and challenging racial discrimination in the criminal justice system. Full bio
Bryan Stevenson is the founder and executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative, fighting poverty and challenging racial discrimination in the criminal justice system. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Well this is a really extraordinary honor for me.
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很榮幸來到這裡。
00:18
I spend most of my time
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我大部分的時間都待在
00:20
in jails, in prisons, on death row.
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看守所、監獄，或者死囚牢房中。
00:23
I spend most of my time in very low-income communities
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我也花很多時間參與低收入戶社區的計畫，
00:26
in the projects and places where there's a great deal of hopelessness.
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或者到一些充滿絕望的地方工作。
00:29
And being here at TED
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今天來到TED會場，
00:31
and seeing the stimulation, hearing it,
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所看到的，聽見的訊息，
00:33
has been very, very energizing to me.
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十分激勵人心。
00:35
And one of the things that's emerged in my short time here
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在我短暫到訪的時間內，我意識到，
00:38
is that TED has an identity.
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TED具有自己獨特的定位。
00:41
And you can actually say things here
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你在這裡說的話
00:43
that have impacts around the world.
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可以影響整個世界。
00:45
And sometimes when it comes through TED,
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透過TED傳送的訊息，
00:47
it has meaning and power
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它的重要性和力量
00:49
that it doesn't have when it doesn't.
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大於別的傳播平台。
00:52
And I mention that because I think identity is really important.
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提到這個，是因為我認為自我定位是非常重要的。
00:55
And we've had some fantastic presentations.
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我們已經聽過一些十分美妙的演講，
00:58
And I think what we've learned
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我想我們已經瞭解，
01:00
is that, if you're a teacher your words can be meaningful,
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如果你是老師，你說的話會變得有影響力；
01:02
but if you're a compassionate teacher,
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但如果你是一個富有同情心的老師，
01:04
they can be especially meaningful.
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你的話會更別具意義意。
01:06
If you're a doctor you can do some good things,
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如果你是醫生，你可以做些好事；
01:08
but if you're a caring doctor you can do some other things.
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但如果你是有愛心的醫生，你可以做的更多。
01:11
And so I want to talk about the power of identity.
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所以我要談關於自我定位的力量。
01:14
And I didn't learn about this actually
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其實我不是在工作中
01:16
practicing law and doing the work that I do.
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學習到這些的。
01:18
I actually learned about this from my grandmother.
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實際上，我是從我外婆身上學到的。
01:21
I grew up in a house
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我在一個
01:23
that was the traditional African-American home
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傳統的非裔美國家庭中長大，
01:25
that was dominated by a matriarch,
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我的外婆
01:27
and that matriarch was my grandmother.
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掌管家中大小事。
01:29
She was tough, she was strong,
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她既強悍又硬朗，
01:32
she was powerful.
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很有權威。
01:34
She was the end of every argument in our family.
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家中所有紛爭都由她收尾，做最終定奪。
01:38
She was the beginning of a lot of arguments in our family.
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同樣的，家中很多的爭吵也是她起的頭。
01:41
She was the daughter of people who were actually enslaved.
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她是奴隸的女兒。
01:44
Her parents were born in slavery in Virginia in the 1840's.
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她的父母在1840年代出生於維吉尼亞洲，生下來就是奴隸。
01:46
She was born in the 1880's
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她出生於1880年代，
01:48
and the experience of slavery
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過去身為奴隸的經歷
01:50
very much shaped the way she saw the world.
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構成她看待世界的方式。
01:53
And my grandmother was tough, but she was also loving.
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我外婆雖然強悍，但她也很慈愛。
01:55
When I would see her as a little boy,
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當我小的時候，
01:57
she'd come up to me and she'd give me these hugs.
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她見到我時，總是走來給我擁抱。
01:59
And she'd squeeze me so tight I could barely breathe
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她緊緊得抱住我，幾乎到了無法呼吸的地步，
02:01
and then she'd let me go.
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然後才放開我。
02:03
And an hour or two later, if I saw her,
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一兩個小時後，外婆看到我，
02:05
she'd come over to me and she'd say, "Bryan, do you still feel me hugging you?"
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會問我：「Bryan，你仍然感受的到我的擁抱嗎？」
02:08
And if I said, "No," she'd assault me again,
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如果我回答，「沒有。」她會再次攻擊我，
02:10
and if I said, "Yes," she'd leave me alone.
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如果我說，「有。」她就不再打擾我。
02:12
And she just had this quality
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她有一種
02:14
that you always wanted to be near her.
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讓人想親近她的特質。
02:16
And the only challenge was that she had 10 children.
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唯一的困擾是她有十個小孩，
02:19
My mom was the youngest of her 10 kids.
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我媽媽是當中最年幼的。
02:21
And sometimes when I would go and spend time with her,
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有時候我想要花時間和她相處，
02:23
it would be difficult to get her time and attention.
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很難得她的時間和注意力。
02:25
My cousins would be running around everywhere.
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我的表兄弟姊妹們總是在圍繞在四周。
02:27
And I remember, when I was about eight or nine years old,
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我記得，當我大概八或九歲的時候，
02:30
waking up one morning, going into the living room,
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有天早上醒來，走進客廳，
02:32
and all of my cousins were running around.
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我所有的表兄弟姊妹都在。
02:34
And my grandmother was sitting across the room
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我外婆坐在客廳的另外一邊
02:36
staring at me.
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盯著我看。
02:38
And at first I thought we were playing a game.
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一開始我以為我們在玩遊戲。
02:40
And I would look at her and I'd smile,
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我笑著回看她，
02:42
but she was very serious.
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但她非常嚴肅。
02:44
And after about 15 or 20 minutes of this,
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大約15或20分鐘之後，
02:46
she got up and she came across the room
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她起身走過客廳，
02:49
and she took me by the hand
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牽起我的手，
02:51
and she said, "Come on, Bryan. You and I are going to have a talk."
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她說：「來吧，Bryan。我們需要談一下。」
02:53
And I remember this just like it happened yesterday.
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這彷彿是昨天才發生過的事。
02:57
I never will forget it.
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我永遠不會忘記。
02:59
She took me out back and she said, "Bryan, I'm going to tell you something,
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她帶我到外面，跟我說，「Bryan，我要跟你說一些事，
03:01
but you don't tell anybody what I tell you."
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但你不可以跟任何人說。」
03:03
I said, "Okay, Mama."
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我說，「好的，嬤嬤。」
03:05
She said, "Now you make sure you don't do that." I said, "Sure."
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她說：「你保證你不跟別人說。」我說：「當然。」
03:08
Then she sat me down and she looked at me
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然後她要我坐下，看著我，
03:11
and she said, "I want you to know
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她說：「我要你知道，
03:13
I've been watching you."
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我一直都在注意你。」
03:16
And she said, "I think you're special."
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「我覺得你很特別。」
03:19
She said, "I think you can do anything you want to do."
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「我認為你可以做到任何你想要做的事。」
03:23
I will never forget it.
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我永遠忘不了這一幕。
03:26
And then she said, "I just need you to promise me three things, Bryan."
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接著她說：「我要你答應我三件事情，Bryan。」
03:28
I said, "Okay, Mama."
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我說：「沒問題，嬤嬤。」
03:30
She said, "The first thing I want you to promise me
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她說：「第一，我要你答應我
03:32
is that you'll always love your mom."
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你會永遠愛你的母親。」
03:34
She said, "That's my baby girl,
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她說：「她是我的寶貝女兒，
03:36
and you have to promise me now you'll always take care of her."
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你要答應我，你會永遠照顧她。」
03:38
Well I adored my mom, so I said, "Yes, Mama. I'll do that."
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我非常愛我媽媽，於是我說：「好的，嬤嬤。」
03:42
Then she said, "The second thing I want you to promise me
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接著她說：「第二，我要你答應我，
03:44
is that you'll always do the right thing
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你永遠都要做正確的事，
03:46
even when the right thing is the hard thing."
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即使有時候，正確的事是相對困難的事。」
03:49
And I thought about it and I said, "Yes, Mama. I'll do that."
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我想了一下，回答：「好的，嬤嬤。我會照做。」
03:53
Then finally she said, "The third thing I want you to promise me
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最後她說：「第三件事，我要你保證，
03:55
is that you'll never drink alcohol."
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你永遠不喝酒。」
03:58
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
04:00
Well I was nine years old, so I said, "Yes, Mama. I'll do that."
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我當時才九歲，所以我說：「好的，嬤嬤。我答應妳。」
04:03
I grew up in the country in the rural South,
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我在南方的鄉村中長大，
04:05
and I have a brother a year older than me and a sister a year younger.
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我有一個大一歲的哥哥和一個小一歲的妹妹。
04:08
When I was about 14 or 15,
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當我大概14或15歲的時候，
04:10
one day my brother came home and he had this six-pack of beer --
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有一天我哥哥帶了半打啤酒回家，
04:12
I don't know where he got it --
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我不知道他從哪裡弄來的。
04:14
and he grabbed me and my sister and we went out in the woods.
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然後，他帶著我和我妹妹到樹林中，
04:16
And we were kind of just out there doing the stuff we crazily did.
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我們在那裡瘋狂玩樂嬉鬧，
04:19
And he had a sip of this beer and he gave some to my sister and she had some,
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我哥哥喝了一口啤酒，接著交給我妹妹，她跟著喝了一些，
04:22
and they offered it to me.
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然後他們將酒遞給我。
04:24
I said, "No, no, no. That's okay. You all go ahead. I'm not going to have any beer."
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我說：「不用了，你們喝就好，我不喝啤酒。」
04:27
My brother said, "Come on. We're doing this today; you always do what we do.
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我哥哥說：「試試看，今天我們就是要一起嘗試這件事，
04:30
I had some, your sister had some. Have some beer."
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我喝了，妹妹也喝了，你也喝一些吧。」
04:32
I said, "No, I don't feel right about that. Y'all go ahead. Y'all go ahead."
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我說：「不要，我覺得這樣不好。你們喝吧。」
04:34
And then my brother started staring at me.
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我哥哥盯著我看，
04:36
He said, "What's wrong with you? Have some beer."
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他說：「你哪根筋不對勁？喝點啤酒吧。」
04:39
Then he looked at me real hard and he said,
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接著他懷疑地看著我，他說，
04:41
"Oh, I hope you're not still hung up
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「噢，我希望你不是還在
04:43
on that conversation Mama had with you."
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為了嬤嬤跟你說的話煩惱。」
04:45
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
04:47
I said, "Well, what are you talking about?"
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我說：「你在說什麼？」
04:49
He said, "Oh, Mama tells all the grandkids that they're special."
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哥哥說：「喔，嬤嬤告訴所有孫子他們很特別。」
04:52
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
04:55
I was devastated.
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我當時心碎了。
04:57
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
04:59
And I'm going to admit something to you.
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但我要跟你們承認一件事。
05:01
I'm going to tell you something I probably shouldn't.
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這件事我也許不該說出來。
05:03
I know this might be broadcast broadly.
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我知道這個演說是會散播出去的。
05:05
But I'm 52 years old,
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我現在52歲了，
05:07
and I'm going to admit to you
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而且我要承認
05:09
that I've never had a drop of alcohol.
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我從來沒有沾過一滴酒精。
05:12
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
05:14
I don't say that because I think that's virtuous;
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我說這個不是因為我認為這是有品德的事；
05:17
I say that because there is power in identity.
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我說這個是因為自我定位是有力量的。
05:21
When we create the right kind of identity,
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當有了正確的自我定位，
05:23
we can say things to the world around us
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我們可以讓周遭的人
05:25
that they don't actually believe makes sense.
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更輕易被說服。
05:27
We can get them to do things
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我們能激勵他們做些
05:29
that they don't think they can do.
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他們不認為自己可以做的事。
05:31
When I thought about my grandmother,
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當我想到我的外婆，
05:33
of course she would think all her grandkids were special.
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她當然會認為她所有的孫子都很特別。
05:35
My grandfather was in prison during prohibition.
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在美國的禁酒時期，我外公被關在監獄裡。
05:38
My male uncles died of alcohol-related diseases.
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我的幾個舅舅死於酒精相關的疾病。
05:40
And these were the things she thought we needed to commit to.
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所以這是外婆要我們承諾她的理由。
05:43
Well I've been trying to say something
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我開始來聊一些，
05:45
about our criminal justice system.
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關於美國的犯罪司法系統。
05:47
This country is very different today
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我們的國家和40年前相比
05:49
than it was 40 years ago.
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有非常大的不同。
05:51
In 1972, there were 300,000 people in jails and prisons.
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在1972年，有三十萬人被關在拘留所或監獄中。
05:54
Today, there are 2.3 million.
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現在，人數已經高達兩百三十萬人。
05:59
The United States now has the highest rate of incarceration
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美國有全世界最高比例的
06:01
in the world.
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服刑人口。
06:03
We have seven million people on probation and parole.
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我們有七百萬人在緩刑和假釋中。
06:06
And mass incarceration, in my judgment,
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我認為，大量的判刑，
06:09
has fundamentally changed our world.
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徹底改變了我們的世界。
06:12
In poor communities, in communities of color
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在貧困的社區裡，有色人種的社區裡，
06:14
there is this despair,
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充滿了絕望。
06:16
there is this hopelessness,
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對未來不抱希望。
06:18
that is being shaped by these outcomes.
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這就是現今制度產生的一些後果。
06:20
One out of three black men
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18歲到30歲的黑人，
06:22
between the ages of 18 and 30
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有三分之一
06:24
is in jail, in prison, on probation or parole.
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在拘留所、監獄裡，緩刑或假釋中。
06:27
In urban communities across this country --
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美國的大城市
06:29
Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington --
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洛杉磯，賓州，巴爾地摩，華盛頓
06:32
50 to 60 percent of all young men of color are
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百分之五十到六十的年輕有色人種
06:35
in jail or prison or on probation or parole.
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在拘留所、監獄裡，緩刑或假釋中。
06:38
Our system isn't just being shaped
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我國的法制系統
06:40
in these ways that seem to be distorting around race,
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不僅是被種族問題扭曲了，
06:42
they're also distorted by poverty.
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似乎也被貧窮所扭曲了。
06:44
We have a system of justice in this country
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在這個國家，我們的司法系統
06:47
that treats you much better
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對待富有的犯罪者
06:49
if you're rich and guilty than if you're poor and innocent.
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比貧窮但清白的人還好。
06:52
Wealth, not culpability,
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財富決定結果，
06:55
shapes outcomes.
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而不是有罪與否。
06:57
And yet, we seem to be very comfortable.
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然而，一般民眾似乎還蠻習慣的。
07:00
The politics of fear and anger
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恐懼和憤怒的政治操作
07:02
have made us believe
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讓我們相信
07:04
that these are problems that are not our problems.
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這些問題不是我們的問題。
07:07
We've been disconnected.
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我們已經脫節了。
07:09
It's interesting to me.
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引起我注意的是，
07:11
We're looking at some very interesting developments in our work.
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我在工作中看到些非常有趣的發展。
07:13
My state of Alabama, like a number of states,
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我所居住的阿拉巴馬州，如同很多其它州一般，
07:15
actually permanently disenfranchises you
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如果你曾經犯罪過，
07:17
if you have a criminal conviction.
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你的公民權利會被永遠剝奪。
07:19
Right now in Alabama
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現在在阿拉巴馬州，
07:21
34 percent of the black male population
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百分之三十四的黑人男性人口數
07:23
has permanently lost the right to vote.
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已經永遠失去投票權。
07:25
We're actually projecting in another 10 years
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我們推斷，再過十年後，
07:27
the level of disenfranchisement
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被剝奪公民權的人數比例
07:29
will be as high as it's been
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將和通過選舉權法之前
07:31
since prior to the passage of the Voting Rights Act.
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不分上下。
07:33
And there is this stunning silence.
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這事實令人震驚。
07:37
I represent children.
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我很多客戶都非常年輕，
07:39
A lot of my clients are very young.
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有時我會成為一些孩子的委任律師。
07:41
The United States is the only country in the world
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美國是世界上唯一一個國家
07:43
where we sentence 13-year-old children
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會將13歲的小孩
07:45
to die in prison.
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判死刑。
07:47
We have life imprisonment without parole for kids in this country.
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這也是世界上唯一一個國家
07:50
And we're actually doing some litigation.
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會判小孩終身監禁，不得保釋。
07:52
The only country in the world.
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實際上，我們仍然在為這些案子奮鬥，進行訴訟。
07:54
I represent people on death row.
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我也會為死刑犯辯護。
07:56
It's interesting, this question of the death penalty.
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死刑這個問題很有趣。
07:58
In many ways, we've been taught to think
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在很多方面，我們被引導朝向
08:00
that the real question is,
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人們是否應該為他們所犯的罪而死？
08:02
do people deserve to die for the crimes they've committed?
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這個問題去思考。
08:05
And that's a very sensible question.
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這是個非常合理的問題。
08:07
But there's another way of thinking
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但有另外一種思考的方式，
08:09
about where we are in our identity.
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這有關我們本身的定位。
08:11
The other way of thinking about it
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另一種思考的方式，
08:13
is not, do people deserve to die for the crimes they commit,
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不是人們是否應該為他們所犯的罪而死，
08:15
but do we deserve to kill?
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而是我們是否有權利去結束別人的生命？
08:17
I mean, it's fascinating.
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我的意思是，這很值得玩味。
08:19
Death penalty in America is defined by error.
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在美國，死刑會被錯判。
08:22
For every nine people who have been executed,
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每九個被判死刑的人之中，
08:24
we've actually identified one innocent person
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就有一個是無辜的，
08:26
who's been exonerated and released from death row.
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事後會被證明無罪，然後釋放。
08:29
A kind of astonishing error rate --
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多人震驚的失誤率，
08:32
one out of nine people innocent.
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九個死刑犯中，就有一個是清白的。
08:35
I mean, it's fascinating.
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這真的難以置信。
08:37
In aviation, we would never let people fly on airplanes
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以飛行來比喻，如果每九架起飛的飛機中，
08:40
if for every nine planes that took off
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就有一架會墜機，
08:42
one would crash.
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我們絕對不會讓人們開飛機。
08:44
But somehow we can insulate ourselves from this problem.
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但不知道為什麼，我們卻無視這個問題。
08:47
It's not our problem.
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這不是我們自身的問題。
08:49
It's not our burden.
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這不是我們自身的責任。
08:51
It's not our struggle.
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這不是我們該努力爭取的。
08:53
I talk a lot about these issues.
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我談過很多相關的議題。
08:55
I talk about race and this question
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我講到種族，
08:57
of whether we deserve to kill.
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還有我們是否有權利結束別人的生命這個問題。
08:59
And it's interesting, when I teach my students about African-American history,
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有趣的是，當我教我的學生非裔美國人的歷史時，
09:01
I tell them about slavery.
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我告訴他們有關奴隸制度，
09:03
I tell them about terrorism,
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有關恐怖主義，
09:05
the era that began at the end of reconstruction
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開始於南北戰爭結束後，
09:07
that went on to World War II.
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接著第二次世界大戰爆發。
09:09
We don't really know very much about it.
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其實我們不是真的非常了解這些。
09:11
But for African-Americans in this country,
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但對這個國家中的非裔美國人，
09:13
that was an era defined by terror.
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那是個充滿恐懼的年代。
09:15
In many communities, people had to worry about being lynched.
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在很多社區，人們擔心被處私刑，
09:17
They had to worry about being bombed.
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擔心被武器攻擊。
09:19
It was the threat of terror that shaped their lives.
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這種恐怖威脅就一直存在是他們的生活。
09:21
And these older people come up to me now
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現在這些老年人見到我，
09:23
and they say, "Mr. Stevenson, you give talks, you make speeches,
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他們說：「Steven先生，你四處演講，
09:26
you tell people to stop saying
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你告訴人們，
09:28
we're dealing with terrorism for the first time in our nation's history
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不要再說在美國歷史中，九一一是我們第一次
09:31
after 9/11."
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遭遇恐怖攻擊。」
09:33
They tell me to say, "No, tell them that we grew up with that."
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他們說：「告訴聽眾，我們從小就在恐怖威脅中長大。」
09:36
And that era of terrorism, of course,
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當然，這種恐怖行動，
09:38
was followed by segregation
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造成了種族間的鴻溝，
09:40
and decades of racial subordination
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於是有了長達幾十年的種族歧視，
09:42
and apartheid.
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和種族隔離政策。
09:44
And yet, we have in this country this dynamic
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然而，在這個國家裡，
09:47
where we really don't like to talk about our problems.
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我們有個默契，不討論我們的問題；
09:50
We don't like to talk about our history.
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我們不談論我們的歷史。
09:53
And because of that, we really haven't understood
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正因如此，我們不真的理解
09:56
what it's meant to do the things we've done historically.
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這些歷史事件的真正意義。
09:59
We're constantly running into each other.
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我們持續地互相產生衝突。
10:01
We're constantly creating tensions and conflicts.
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我們不停地製造緊張情況和鬥爭。
10:03
We have a hard time talking about race,
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我們不能好好地談論種族，
10:06
and I believe it's because we are unwilling to commit ourselves
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因為我們不願意立下承諾
10:10
to a process of truth and reconciliation.
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要面對事實和進行和解。
10:12
In South Africa, people understood
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在南非，人們了解
10:14
that we couldn't overcome apartheid
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沒有下定決心要了解事實和進行和解的話，
10:16
without a commitment to truth and reconciliation.
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沒有辦法戰勝種族隔離政策。
10:18
In Rwanda, even after the genocide, there was this commitment,
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在盧安達即使發生了大屠殺，事後也有這種彼此的和解和承諾。
10:21
but in this country we haven't done that.
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但在美國，我們不曾這樣做過。
10:23
I was giving some lectures in Germany about the death penalty.
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我在德國做過一些有關死刑的演講。
10:26
It was fascinating
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有趣的是，
10:28
because one of the scholars stood up after the presentation
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演說結束後，有位學者站起來，
10:31
and said, "Well you know it's deeply troubling
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她說：「你的演講，
10:33
to hear what you're talking about."
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內容很令人痛心。」
10:35
He said, "We don't have the death penalty in Germany.
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她接著說：「在德國，我們沒有死刑。
10:38
And of course, we can never have the death penalty in Germany."
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我們也永遠不可能有死刑。」
10:41
And the room got very quiet,
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然後整個房間變得非常安靜，
10:43
and this woman said,
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這位女士接著說：
10:45
"There's no way, with our history,
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「我們從歷史得到的教訓，
10:48
we could ever engage
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讓我們絕對不可能
10:50
in the systematic killing of human beings.
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有系統地殺人。
10:52
It would be unconscionable for us
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有目的且蓄意地
10:56
to, in an intentional and deliberate way,
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處決人類，
10:58
set about executing people."
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這是我們良心上所不允許的。」
11:01
And I thought about that.
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我思考這個問題，
11:03
What would it feel like
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如果生活在
11:05
to be living in a world
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會執行死刑的德國，
11:07
where the nation state of Germany was executing people,
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特別是任意處死猶太人，
11:10
especially if they were disproportionately Jewish?
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到底是怎樣的感覺。
11:12
I couldn't bear it.
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這個想法令我覺得難受。
11:14
It would be unconscionable.
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這是不合理的。
11:16
And yet, in this country,
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然而，在這個國家，
11:18
in the states of the Old South,
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在南方各州，
11:20
we execute people --
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我們仍在執行死刑。
11:22
where you're 11 times more likely to get the death penalty
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刑事案件中，當受害者是白人，被告被判死刑的機率
11:24
if the victim is white than if the victim is black,
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比受害者是黑人時，高了11倍。
11:26
22 times more likely to get it
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如果被告正好是黑人，受害者是白人，
11:28
if the defendant is black and the victim is white --
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那被判死刑的機率高達22倍。
11:30
in the very states where there are buried in the ground
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就在這些州裡，
11:32
the bodies of people who were lynched.
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土地裡埋著被受私刑而死的人們。
11:34
And yet, there is this disconnect.
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然而，我們置之不理。
11:38
Well I believe that our identity is at risk.
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我相信我們有自我定位危機。
11:42
That when we actually don't care
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當我們不在乎
11:45
about these difficult things,
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這些艱難的事情時，
11:48
the positive and wonderful things
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正面和美好的事物
11:50
are nonetheless implicated.
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也會受到牽連。
11:53
We love innovation.
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我們熱愛創新，
11:55
We love technology. We love creativity.
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我們熱愛科技，我們熱愛創意。
11:58
We love entertainment.
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我們熱愛娛樂。
12:00
But ultimately,
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但是到最後，
12:02
those realities
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這些美好的現實
12:04
are shadowed by suffering,
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會因為苦難，
12:07
abuse, degradation,
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傷害，墮落，忽視
12:09
marginalization.
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而蒙受陰影。
12:11
And for me, it becomes necessary
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對我而言，同時面對美好和艱難的事，
12:13
to integrate the two.
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是無法避免的。
12:15
Because ultimately we are talking
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畢竟到頭來我們關注的
12:17
about a need to be more hopeful,
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是生活在複雜的世界，如何充滿希望，
12:19
more committed, more dedicated
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堅定且專注的
12:22
to the basic challenges of living in a complex world.
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處理所有遭遇的挑戰。
12:25
And for me that means
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這代表要
12:28
spending time thinking and talking
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花時間思考和談論
12:30
about the poor, the disadvantaged,
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有關這些貧困，屈居劣勢，
12:33
those who will never get to TED.
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永遠不可能參加TED演講的人們。
12:35
But thinking about them in a way
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要將他們
12:37
that is integrated in our own lives.
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納入我們生活思考中的一部分。
12:39
You know ultimately, we all have to believe things we haven't seen.
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基於我們具有的理性和智慧，
12:43
We do. As rational as we are, as committed to intellect as we are.
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我們終究必須相信這些我們不曾見到的事。
12:47
Innovation, creativity,
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發明、創造力和發展進化的能力
12:49
development comes
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不單單只是靠
12:51
not from the ideas in our mind alone.
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人類腦中的智力空想而來。
12:53
They come from the ideas in our mind
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在腦中形成的想法，
12:56
that are also fueled
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其實會受到心裡的信念
12:58
by some conviction in our heart.
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刺激而產生。
13:00
And it's that mind-heart connection
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我相信就是這腦力和信念的結合，
13:02
that I believe compels us
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會迫使我們
13:04
to not just be attentive
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不只是注意
13:06
to all the bright and dazzly things,
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光明璀璨的事情，
13:09
but also the dark and difficult things.
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也關心這些黑暗且困難的事情。
13:12
Vaclav Havel, the great Czech leader, talked about this.
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Vaclav Havel，捷克的偉大領導者，也如此說過。
13:15
He said, "When we were in Eastern Europe and dealing with oppression,
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他說：「當我們在東歐面對壓迫時，
13:18
we wanted all kinds of things,
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我們祈求各種東西，
13:20
but mostly what we needed was hope,
332
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但我們最需要的是希望，
13:22
an orientation of the spirit,
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一種精神的方針，
13:24
a willingness to sometimes be in hopeless places
334
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讓我們願意處於絕望的地方，
13:26
and be a witness."
335
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當一位目擊者。」
13:28
Well that orientation of the spirit
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這精神方針
13:30
is very much at the core of what I believe
337
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就是我的信仰中心，
13:33
even TED communities
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即使是TED社群們
13:35
have to be engaged in.
339
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都必須要參與。
13:37
There is no disconnect
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只要我們能開始去關心這些苦難
13:39
around technology and design
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貧困，排斥，不公平，不正義，
13:42
that will allow us to be fully human
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現代科技和嶄新的工藝設計，
13:44
until we pay attention to suffering,
343
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也不會消磨我們的人性，
13:47
to poverty, to exclusion, to unfairness, to injustice.
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我們會成為更完整的人。
13:50
Now I will warn you
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現在我要提醒你們的是，
13:52
that this kind of identity
346
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開始有了這種自我定位的覺醒，
13:54
is a much more challenging identity
347
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會比未曾意識到之前
13:57
than ones that don't pay attention to this.
348
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更具挑戰性。
13:59
It will get to you.
349
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它會影響你。
14:01
I had the great privilege, when I was a young lawyer, of meeting Rosa Parks.
350
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當我還是一個年輕律師時，我有幸認識Rosa Parks。
14:04
And Ms. Parks used to come back to Montgomery every now and then,
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3000
Parks女士有時會到蒙哥馬利，
14:07
and she would get together with two of her dearest friends,
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和兩個好朋友聚會聊天，
14:09
these older women,
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這些年長的女人，
14:11
Johnnie Carr who was the organizer
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包括Johnnie Carr，
14:13
of the Montgomery bus boycott --
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蒙哥馬利巴士抵制事件的發起人之一，
14:15
amazing African-American woman --
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令人欽佩的非裔美國女士。
14:17
and Virginia Durr, a white woman,
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還有Virginia Durr，一位白人女士，
14:19
whose husband, Clifford Durr, represented Dr. King.
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她的丈夫，Cliffor Durr，曾代表馬丁路德金恩博士。
14:21
And these women would get together and just talk.
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這些女士會聚在一起聊天。
14:24
And every now and then Ms. Carr would call me,
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Carr女士有時會打電話給我，
14:26
and she'd say, "Bryan, Ms. Parks is coming to town. We're going to get together and talk.
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她說：「Bryan，Parks女士要到鎮上來，我們要聚會。
14:29
Do you want to come over and listen?"
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你想要過來聽聽我們說些什麼嗎？」
14:31
And I'd say, "Yes, Ma'am, I do."
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我說：「好的，女士，我會去。」
14:33
And she'd say, "Well what are you going to do when you get here?"
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她問：「那你來了要做什麼？」
14:35
I said, "I'm going to listen."
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我說：「我會靜靜地聽。」
14:37
And I'd go over there and I would, I would just listen.
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當我加入聚會，我就是聆聽。
14:39
It would be so energizing and so empowering.
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這樣的聚會總是讓我深受激勵，且充滿力量。
14:41
And one time I was over there listening to these women talk,
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有一次當我在聽這些女士說話，
14:44
and after a couple of hours Ms. Parks turned to me
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過了幾個小時候，Parks女士轉向我，
14:46
and she said, "Now Bryan, tell me what the Equal Justice Initiative is.
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她說：「Bryan，司法正義精神是什麼，
14:49
Tell me what you're trying to do."
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告訴我你打算怎麼做。」
14:51
And I began giving her my rap.
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我開始我的饒舌演說。
14:53
I said, "Well we're trying to challenge injustice.
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我說：「我們試著挑戰不正義。
14:55
We're trying to help people who have been wrongly convicted.
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我們試著幫助被誤判的罪犯。
14:57
We're trying to confront bias and discrimination
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我們試著對抗刑法審判時的
14:59
in the administration of criminal justice.
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偏見和歧視。
15:01
We're trying to end life without parole sentences for children.
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我們試著終結對小孩判終身不得假釋的審判。
15:04
We're trying to do something about the death penalty.
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我們試著處理死刑這個議題。
15:06
We're trying to reduce the prison population.
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我們試著降低監獄人數。
15:08
We're trying to end mass incarceration."
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結束大量判刑的情況。」
15:10
I gave her my whole rap, and when I finished she looked at me
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當我結束整段的說唱時，她看著我，
15:12
and she said, "Mmm mmm mmm."
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然後她說：「嗯嗯嗯。」
15:15
She said, "That's going to make you tired, tired, tired."
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她說：「這會讓你很累，很累，很累。」
15:18
(Laughter)
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(笑聲)
15:20
And that's when Ms. Carr leaned forward, she put her finger in my face,
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這個時候Carr女士傾身向前，指著我，
15:22
she said, "That's why you've got to be brave, brave, brave."
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她說，「這就是為什麼你一定要勇敢，很勇敢，非常勇敢。」
15:28
And I actually believe that the TED community
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而我相信TED
15:31
needs to be more courageous.
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也是一個勇敢社群。
15:33
We need to find ways
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我們必須找到方法
15:35
to embrace these challenges,
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接受這些挑戰，
15:37
these problems, the suffering.
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面對這些問題，苦難。
15:39
Because ultimately, our humanity depends
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因為最終，我們的人道精神決定在
15:42
on everyone's humanity.
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每個人的人道精神。
15:44
I've learned very simple things doing the work that I do.
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從我從事的工作中，
15:46
It's just taught me very simple things.
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我學到了非常簡單的事情。
15:48
I've come to understand and to believe
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我了解且相信
15:51
that each of us
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我們每個人的價值
15:53
is more than the worst thing we've ever done.
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不單單取決於我們曾做過最壞的事。
15:55
I believe that for every person on the planet.
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我相信地球上每個人皆是如此。
15:58
I think if somebody tells a lie, they're not just a liar.
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如果有人說謊，不代表他就只是一個騙子。
16:01
I think if somebody takes something that doesn't belong to them,
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如果有人拿了不屬於他們的東西，
16:03
they're not just a thief.
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不代表他們就只是小偷。
16:05
I think even if you kill someone, you're not just a killer.
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即使你殺了人，也不意味著你只是一個兇手。
16:08
And because of that there's this basic human dignity
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就因如此，法律一定要尊重
16:11
that must be respected by law.
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基本的人類尊嚴。
16:13
I also believe
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我也相信
16:15
that in many parts of this country,
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在這個國家的很多地方，
16:17
and certainly in many parts of this globe,
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還有一定也在這個地球上很多地方，
16:21
that the opposite of poverty is not wealth.
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貧窮的相反不是富有。
16:23
I don't believe that.
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我不相信這個。
16:25
I actually think, in too many places,
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事實上，我覺得在太多地方，
16:28
the opposite of poverty is justice.
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貧窮的相反是正義。
16:31
And finally, I believe
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最後，我相信
16:34
that, despite the fact that it is so dramatic
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儘管我們的科技引人注目，
16:37
and so beautiful and so inspiring
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耀眼而激勵人心，
16:39
and so stimulating,
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又這麼具有啟發性，
16:41
we will ultimately not be judged by our technology,
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但評斷一個社會的品格，
16:44
we won't be judged by our design,
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不是依據科技發展，
16:47
we won't be judged by our intellect and reason.
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不是依據我們的智商和理性。
16:50
Ultimately, you judge the character of a society,
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也不是觀察他們對待富有、權貴人士的方式。
16:53
not by how they treat their rich and the powerful and the privileged,
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最終，評斷一個社會的品格，
16:56
but by how they treat the poor,
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而是看他們如何對待窮困，
16:58
the condemned, the incarcerated.
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被譴責，和被監禁的人的方式。
17:00
Because it's in that nexus
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因為就是在這些關係裡，
17:02
that we actually begin to understand truly profound things
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我們才會開始了解我們自己是誰
17:05
about who we are.
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這類深奧的事情。
17:09
I sometimes get out of balance. I'll end with this story.
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當然我有時候也會感到不平衡。我用一個故事來結尾。
17:11
I sometimes push too hard.
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我有時候操之過急。
17:13
I do get tired, as we all do.
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我真的覺得勞累，每個人都會。
17:15
Sometimes those ideas get ahead of our thinking
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有時候思考的速度追不上腦中的想法，
17:18
in ways that are important.
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結果是很嚴重的。
17:20
And I've been representing these kids
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我一直在擔任這些
17:22
who have been sentenced to do these very harsh sentences.
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被判重刑的小孩的律師。
17:24
And I go to the jail and I see my client who's 13 and 14,
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當我去看守所，我看到只有13或14歲的孩子，
17:27
and he's been certified to stand trial as an adult.
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被要求以大人身分出庭受審。
17:30
I start thinking, well, how did that happen?
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我開始在想，到底發生了什麼事？
17:32
How can a judge turn you into something
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一個法官怎麼可以把你變成
17:34
that you're not?
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另一個不同的身分？
17:36
And the judge has certified him as an adult, but I see this kid.
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當法官證實他是個成人時，我看到個卻是個小孩。
17:39
And I was up too late one night and I starting thinking,
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有一天晚上，我很晚還沒睡，然後我開始在想，
17:41
well gosh, if the judge can turn you into something that you're not,
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天啊，如果法官可以把你變成另一個根本不是你的身分，
17:43
the judge must have magic power.
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那麼法官一定有神奇的魔力。
17:45
Yeah, Bryan, the judge has some magic power.
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好棒啊，Bryan，法官有神奇的魔力。
17:48
You should ask for some of that.
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你應該要跟他討一些魔力的。
17:50
And because I was up too late, wasn't thinking real straight,
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因為我太晚還沒睡，我其實在胡思亂想。
17:52
I started working on a motion.
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我開始起草一份議案。
17:54
And I had a client who was 14 years old, a young, poor black kid.
447
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我有一個14歲的客戶，一個年輕，貧困的黑人男孩。
17:57
And I started working on this motion,
448
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我接著寫這份議案，
17:59
and the head of the motion was: "Motion to try my poor,
449
1064000
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議案的主旨是：「請視我的被告，
18:01
14-year-old black male client
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窮困，14歲的黑人男孩子，
18:03
like a privileged, white 75-year-old
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如同一位有特權的，75歲白人
18:05
corporate executive."
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企業經理。」
18:07
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
18:12
And I put in my motion
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接著我在訴訟議案中寫到
18:14
that there was prosecutorial misconduct and police misconduct and judicial misconduct.
455
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此案中檢察官，警察，法院都處置不當。
18:17
There was a crazy line in there about how there's no conduct in this county,
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還說了這個州管理不當之類的瘋言瘋語，
18:19
it's all misconduct.
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總之就是從頭錯到尾。
18:21
And the next morning, I woke up and I thought, now did I dream that crazy motion,
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隔天早上，我起床後開始在想，是我做夢夢到這個瘋狂的議案？
18:24
or did I actually write it?
459
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還是我真的寫了一份？
18:26
And to my horror, not only had I written it,
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令我震驚的是，我不只寫了，
18:28
but I had sent it to court.
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我還把它傳給法院了。
18:30
(Applause)
462
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(掌聲)
18:33
A couple months went by,
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幾個月過去，
18:36
and I had just forgotten all about it.
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我完全忘記這件事，
18:38
And I finally decided,
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然後我最後決定，
18:40
oh gosh, I've got to go to the court and do this crazy case.
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天啊，我必須去法院處理這瘋狂的案子。
18:42
And I got into my car
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於是我走進我的車，
18:44
and I was feeling really overwhelmed -- overwhelmed.
468
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當下我真的覺得非常不知所措。
18:46
And I got in my car and I went to this courthouse.
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前往法院途中，
18:48
And I was thinking, this is going to be so difficult, so painful.
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我在想，這將會非常困難，非常痛苦。
18:51
And I finally got out of the car and I started walking up to the courthouse.
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當我下車，走向法院，
18:54
And as I was walking up the steps of this courthouse,
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踏上法院的階梯時，
18:56
there was an older black man who was the janitor in this courthouse.
473
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有一個年老的黑人法院門警。
18:59
When this man saw me, he came over to me
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當他看到我時，他走過來，
19:01
and he said, "Who are you?"
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他說：「你是誰？」
19:03
I said, "I'm a lawyer." He said, "You're a lawyer?" I said, "Yes, sir."
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我說：「我是律師。」他說：「你是律師？」我說：「是的，先生。」
19:06
And this man came over to me
477
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然後這位男士靠近我，
19:08
and he hugged me.
478
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給了我一個擁抱。
19:10
And he whispered in my ear.
479
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他在我耳邊低語。
19:12
He said, "I'm so proud of you."
480
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他說：「我真為你感到驕傲。」
19:14
And I have to tell you,
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我必須跟你們說，
19:16
it was energizing.
482
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這讓我精神一振。
19:18
It connected deeply with something in me
483
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他觸動了我內心深處的
19:20
about identity,
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自我定位。
19:22
about the capacity of every person to contribute
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我相信每個人都有能力
19:25
to a community, to a perspective that is hopeful.
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可以貢獻人群，可以做有希望的事，
19:27
Well I went into the courtroom.
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於是我走進法庭。
19:29
And as soon as I walked inside, the judge saw me coming in.
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當法官看到我，
19:31
He said, "Mr. Stevenson, did you write this crazy motion?"
489
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他問：「Stevenson先生，是你寫了這份瘋狂的議案嗎？」
19:34
I said, "Yes, sir. I did." And we started arguing.
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我說，「是的，先生，我寫的。」，然後我們開始爭論。
19:36
And people started coming in because they were just outraged.
491
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2000
義憤填膺的群眾開始進入法庭，
19:38
I had written these crazy things.
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我寫了這些瘋狂的東西。
19:40
And police officers were coming in
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警察進來了，
19:42
and assistant prosecutors and clerk workers.
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助理檢察官和辦事員也都進來。
19:44
And before I knew it, the courtroom was filled with people
495
1169000
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在我注意到之前，法庭裡已經擠滿了憤怒的群眾。
19:46
angry that we were talking about race,
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因為我們談論種族，
19:48
that we were talking about poverty,
497
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談論貧窮，
19:50
that we were talking about inequality.
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2000
談論不平等的問題。
19:52
And out of the corner of my eye, I could see this janitor pacing back and forth.
499
1177000
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我用眼角餘光，看見門警來回踱步。
19:55
And he kept looking through the window, and he could hear all of this holler.
500
1180000
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他一直透過窗戶看進來，他可聽到這些叫喊聲。
19:57
He kept pacing back and forth.
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他不停地來回踱步。
19:59
And finally, this older black man with this very worried look on his face
502
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最後，這位年老的黑人臉上掛著擔心的表情
20:02
came into the courtroom and sat down behind me,
503
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走進法庭且坐在我後面，
20:05
almost at counsel table.
504
1190000
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幾乎碰到律師桌。
20:07
About 10 minutes later the judge said we would take a break.
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大概十分鐘後，法官宣佈休息。
20:09
And during the break there was a deputy sheriff who was offended
506
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休息時，有位副警長因為門警進到法庭中
20:12
that the janitor had come into court.
507
1197000
2000
發起脾氣。
20:14
And this deputy jumped up and he ran over to this older black man.
508
1199000
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他跳起來跑向這位年長的黑人。
20:16
He said, "Jimmy, what are you doing in this courtroom?"
509
1201000
3000
他說：「Jimmy，你在法庭裡做什麼？」
20:19
And this older black man stood up
510
1204000
2000
這位年長黑人站起身，
20:21
and he looked at that deputy and he looked at me
511
1206000
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他看著警長也看著我，
20:23
and he said, "I came into this courtroom
512
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他說：「我進到法庭來，
20:26
to tell this young man,
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為了告訴這位年輕男士，
20:28
keep your eyes on the prize, hold on."
514
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專注在你的目標，堅持下去。」
20:31
I've come to TED
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我來到TED，
20:33
because I believe that many of you understand
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因為我相信你們當中很多人了解
20:35
that the moral arc of the universe is long,
517
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宇宙的道德弧形很長，
20:37
but it bends toward justice.
518
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但它是朝向正義彎曲的。
20:39
That we cannot be full evolved human beings
519
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如果我們不在乎人權和生命基本尊嚴，
20:42
until we care about human rights and basic dignity.
520
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我們就無法完全進化。
20:45
That all of our survival
521
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全人類的生存
20:47
is tied to the survival of everyone.
522
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和每一個人的生存緊緊相扣。
20:49
That our visions of technology and design
523
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2000
我們對科技和工藝設計，
20:51
and entertainment and creativity
524
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娛樂和創意的看法，
20:53
have to be married with visions
525
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都必須結合對人性、憐憫
20:55
of humanity, compassion and justice.
526
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和正義的看法。
20:58
And more than anything,
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最重要的是，
21:00
for those of you who share that,
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對你們當中也抱持同樣看法的人，
21:02
I've simply come to tell you
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我來的目的是要告訴你們，
21:04
to keep your eyes on the prize, hold on.
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專注在你的目標，堅持下去。
21:06
Thank you very much.
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非常謝謝你們。
21:08
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
21:29
Chris Anderson: So you heard and saw
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Chris Anderson：你可以聽到也看到
21:31
an obvious desire by this audience, this community,
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這些觀眾，這個社群，顯然很希望能
21:34
to help you on your way and to do something on this issue.
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在這個議題上和你站在一起。
21:37
Other than writing a check,
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除了開張支票之外，
21:39
what could we do?
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我們還可以做什麼？
21:42
BS: Well there are opportunities all around us.
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我們周遭有很多機會。
21:44
If you live in the state of California, for example,
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舉例來說，如果你住在加州，
21:46
there's a referendum coming up this spring
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這個春天即將有一個公投
21:48
where actually there's going to be an effort
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決定是否要重新分配一些
21:50
to redirect some of the money we spend on the politics of punishment.
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我們原本花費在刑罰操作的經費。
21:53
For example, here in California
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例如，在加州，
21:55
we're going to spend one billion dollars
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未來五年內，
21:57
on the death penalty in the next five years --
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我們將花十億美元在死刑上
21:59
one billion dollars.
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十億美元。
22:02
And yet, 46 percent of all homicide cases
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然而，百分之四十六的殺人案件
22:04
don't result in arrest.
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並沒有逮捕到犯人。
22:06
56 percent of all rape cases don't result.
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百分之五十六的強爆案沒有破案。
22:08
So there's an opportunity to change that.
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所以是有機會可以改變的。
22:10
And this referendum would propose having those dollars
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這個公投提議將這些金錢
22:12
go to law enforcement and safety.
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投入落實法律和安全。
22:15
And I think that opportunity exists all around us.
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我想機會存在我們周遭。
22:17
CA: There's been this huge decline
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在過去的三十年來，
22:19
in crime in America over the last three decades.
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美國的犯罪率有顯著的下降。
22:22
And part of the narrative of that
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有部分的看法是
22:25
is sometimes that it's about increased incarceration rates.
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這跟提高的監禁率有關。
22:28
What would you say to someone who believed that?
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你會怎麼跟持有這種看法的人解釋？
22:30
BS: Well actually the violent crime rate
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事實上美國暴力犯罪的數字
22:32
has remained relatively stable.
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一直沒有多大變動。
22:34
The great increase in mass incarceration in this country
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大量增加的服刑人口，
22:36
wasn't really in violent crime categories.
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並不是來自暴力犯罪，
22:39
It was this misguided war on drugs.
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而是毒品犯罪。
22:41
That's where the dramatic increases have come
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那是我們的監獄人口
22:43
in our prison population.
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劇增的原因。
22:46
And we got carried away with the rhetoric of punishment.
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我們被花俏的判刑名詞沖昏了頭，
22:49
And so we have three strikes laws
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例如我們用三振出局法嚴懲慣犯
22:51
that put people in prison forever
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將偷腳踏車或廉價物品
22:53
for stealing a bicycle, for low-level property crimes,
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的罪犯判終身監禁，
22:56
rather than making them give those resources back
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而不是讓他們
22:58
to the people who they victimized.
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去彌補受害者。
23:00
I believe we need to do more to help people who are victimized by crime,
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我相信我們需要做的是給予犯罪受害人更多幫助，
23:02
not do less.
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不是只著重在嚴懲罪犯。
23:04
And I think our current punishment philosophy
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我們現有的刑罰思考哲學
23:06
does nothing for no one.
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對任何人都沒有好處。
23:08
And I think that's the orientation that we have to change.
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所以我認為這個大方向需要改變。
23:10
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
23:12
CA: Bryan, you've struck a massive chord here.
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Bryan，你的演說動人心弦。
23:15
You're an inspiring person.
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你是個能激發人心的人。
23:17
Thank you so much for coming to TED. Thank you.
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非常謝謝你來到TED。謝謝。
23:19
(Applause)
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(掌聲)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Bryan Stevenson - Public-interest lawyerBryan Stevenson is the founder and executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative, fighting poverty and challenging racial discrimination in the criminal justice system.
Why you should listen
Bryan Stevenson is a public-interest lawyer who has dedicated his career to helping the poor, the incarcerated and the condemned. He's the founder and executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative, an Alabama-based group that has won major legal challenges eliminating excessive and unfair sentencing, exonerating innocent prisoners on death row, confronting abuse of the incarcerated and the mentally ill, and aiding children prosecuted as adults.
EJI recently won an historic ruling in the U.S. Supreme Court holding that mandatory life-without-parole sentences for all children 17 or younger are unconstitutional. Mr. Stevenson’s work fighting poverty and challenging racial discrimination in the criminal justice system has won him numerous awards. He is a graduate of the Harvard Law School and the Harvard School of Government, and has been awarded 14 honorary doctorate degrees. Bryan is the author of Just Mercy: A Story of Justice and Redemption.
Bryan Stevenson | Speaker | TED.com