TEDGlobal 2009
Itay Talgam: Lead like the great conductors
Itay Talgam: Voditi poput velikih dirigenata
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Dirigent nekog orkestra suočava se s najvećim izazovom leadershipa: stvaranjem savršene harmonije bez ijedne izgovorene riječi. U ovom ljupkom govoru, Itay Talgam demonstrira jedinstvene stilove šestorice velikih dirigenata 20. stoljeća, pomoću kojih oslikava ključne lekcije za sve lidere.
Itay Talgam - Conductor and leadership expert
After a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro. Full bio
After a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
The magical moment, the magical moment of conducting.
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Čarobni trenutak, čarobni trenutak dirigiranja
00:20
Which is, you go onto a stage. There is an orchestra sitting.
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znači, dolazite na pozornicu gdje sjedi orkestar.
00:22
They are all, you know, warming up and doing stuff.
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Oni se zagrijavaju i rade razne sitnice.
00:26
And I go on the podium.
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Ja se penjem na podij.
00:28
You know, this little office of the conductor.
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Znate, onaj mali dirigentski ured,
00:31
Or rather a cubicle, an open-space cubicle,
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odnosno kutak, radni kutak u otvorenom prostoru
00:34
with a lot of space.
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s puno mjesta.
00:36
And in front of all that noise,
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I u svoj toj buci
00:38
you do a very small gesture.
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napravite sasvim mali pokret.
00:40
Something like this, not very pomp, not very sophisticated, this.
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Nešto poput ovoga - ništa pompozno niti jako profinjeno - ovo.
00:44
And suddenly, out of the chaos, order.
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I najednom - iz kaosa nastane red.
00:47
Noise becomes music.
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Buka postaje glazba
00:49
And this is fantastic. And it's so tempting
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i to je fantastično i tako je primamljivo
00:51
to think that it's all about me.
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pomisliti da se sve vrti oko mene.
00:53
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
00:55
All those great people here, virtuosos,
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Svi ti sjajni ljudi, virtuozi,
00:57
they make noise, they need me to do that.
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stvaraju buku i trebaju me da učinim ovo.
00:59
Not really. If it were that,
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Ne baš. Da je tako,
01:01
I would just save you the talk,
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poštedio bih vas priče
01:03
and teach you the gesture.
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i podučio vas pokretu
01:05
So you could go out to the world
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kako biste mogli ići po svijetu
01:07
and do this thing in whatever company or whatever you want,
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i raditi to u bilo kojoj tvrtki ili gdje god želite
01:10
and you have perfect harmony. It doesn't work.
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i dobiti savršenu harmoniju. Ali ne funkcionira.
01:12
Let's look at the first video.
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Pogledajmo prvu snimku.
01:14
I hope you'll think it's a good example of harmony.
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Nadam se da ćete pomisliti kako je ovo dobar primjer harmonije,
01:17
And then speak a little bit about how it comes about.
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a potom ću malo govoriti kako ona nastaje.
01:21
(Music)
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(glazba)
02:17
Was that nice?
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Je li ovo bilo lijepo?
02:19
So that was a sort of a success.
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To je bila neka vrsta uspjeha,
02:22
Now, who should we thank for the success?
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ali kome smo dužni zahvalu?
02:25
I mean, obviously the orchestra musicians
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Naravno, očito je da glazbenici u orkestru
02:27
playing beautifully,
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predivno sviraju,
02:29
the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.
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to je Bečka filharmonija.
02:33
They don't often even look at the conductor.
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Često čak ni ne pogledaju dirigenta.
02:35
Then you have the clapping audience, yeah,
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A tu je i publika koja plješće,
02:38
actually taking part in doing the music.
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čime zapravo preuzima ulogu u stvaranju glazbe.
02:40
You know Viennese audiences usually don't interfere with the music.
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Znate, bečka publika se obično ne upliće u glazbu.
02:44
This is the closest to an Oriental bellydancing feast
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Ovo je najbliže doživljaju orijentalnog trbušnog plesa
02:48
that you will ever get in Vienna.
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za pojam Beča.
02:50
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
02:51
Unlike, for example Israel, where audiences cough all the time.
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Za razliku od Izraela, na primjer, gdje publika cijelo vrijeme kašlje.
02:54
You know, Arthur Rubinstein, the pianist, used to say
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Pijanist Arthur Rubinstein je znao reći:
02:57
that, "Anywhere in the world, people that have the flu, they go to the doctor.
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"Bilo gdje u svijetu, ljudi koji imaju gripu, odlaze liječniku,
03:00
In Tel Aviv they come to my concerts."
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ali u Tel Avivu dolaze na moje koncerte."
03:03
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
03:04
So that's a sort of a tradition.
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To je neka vrsta tradicije,
03:06
But Viennese audiences do not do that.
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ali bečka publika to ne radi.
03:08
Here they go out of their regular, just to be part of that,
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Ovdje se ponašaju neuobičajeno, samo kako bi postali
03:13
to become part of the orchestra, and that's great.
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dio orkestra - i to je sjajno.
03:15
You know, audiences like you, yeah,
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Znate, publika poput vas
03:17
make the event.
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stvara ugođaj.
03:20
But what about the conductor? What can you say
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Ali što je s dirigentom? Što biste rekli,
03:22
the conductor was doing, actually?
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što on zapravo radi?
03:26
Um, he was happy.
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Pa, on je sretan.
03:29
And I often show this to senior management.
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Ovo često pokazujem višem menadžmentu.
03:32
People get annoyed.
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To ih živcira:
03:34
"You come to work. How come you're so happy?"
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"Došao si na posao. Kako možeš biti tako sretan?"
03:36
Something must be wrong there, yeah? But he's spreading happiness.
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Tu nešto mora biti krivo, zar ne? Ali on širi sreću.
03:39
And I think the happiness, the important thing is this happiness
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I mislim da je važno to da ta sreća
03:41
does not come from
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ne dolazi samo
03:44
only his own story and his joy of the music.
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iz njega i njegovog užitka u glazbi.
03:47
The joy is about enabling other people's stories
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Užitak je omogućiti i drugim ljudima
03:51
to be heard at the same time.
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da ispričaju svoju priču u isto to vrijeme.
03:53
You have the story of the orchestra as a professional body.
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Imate priču o orkestru kao profesionalnom tijelu,
03:57
You have the story of the audience as a community. Yeah.
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a imate i priču o publici kao zajednici.
04:00
You have the stories of the individuals
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Imate priče pojedinaca
04:02
in the orchestra and in the audience.
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u orkestru i u publici,
04:04
And then you have other stories, unseen.
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a imate i one nevidljive -
04:07
People who build this wonderful concert hall.
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priče ljudi koji su izgradili ovu prekrasnu koncertnu dvoranu,
04:10
People who made those Stradivarius, Amati, all those beautiful instruments.
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ljudi koji su izradili ovog Stradivarija ili Amatija, sve ove prekrasne instrumente.
04:15
And all those stories are being heard at the same time.
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Sve te priče zvuče u isto vrijeme.
04:18
This is the true experience of a live concert.
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To je pravo iskustvo koncerta uživo.
04:21
That's a reason to go out of home. Yeah?
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To je razlog za izlazak iz kuće, zar ne?
04:23
And not all conductors do just that.
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No ne rade svi dirigenti tako.
04:26
Let's see somebody else, a great conductor.
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Pogledajmo jednog drugog, velikog dirigenta
04:28
Riccardo Muti, please.
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Riccarda Mutija, molim.
04:31
(Music)
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(glazba)
05:07
Yeah, that was very short, but you could see
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Ovo je bilo vrlo kratko, ali mogli ste vidjeti
05:09
it's a completely different figure. Right?
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potpuno drukčiju osobu, zar ne?
05:11
He's awesome. He's so commanding. Yeah?
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On je sjajan, tako je autoritativan,
05:13
So clear. Maybe a little bit over-clear.
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tako jasan. Možda čak i malo previše jasan.
05:18
Can we have a little demonstration? Would you be my orchestra for a second?
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Možemo li nešto demonstrirati? Hoćete li biti moj orkestar na kratko?
05:21
Can you sing, please, the first note of Don Giovanni?
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Možete li, molim vas, otpjevati prvu notu Don Giovannija?
05:23
You have to sing "Aaaaaah," and I'll stop you.
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Trebate pjevati "Aaaaaah", a ja ću vas zaustaviti.
05:26
Okay? Ready?
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Ok? Spremni?
05:28
Audience: ♫ Aaaaaaah ... ♫
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Publika: ♫ Aaaaah...♫
05:30
Itay Talgam: Come on, with me. If you do it without me
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Itay Talgam: Pokušajmo zajedno, jer ako pjevate bez mene,
05:32
I feel even more redundant than I already feel.
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osjećam se još nepotrebnijim nego sada.
05:35
So please, wait for the conductor.
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Zato vas molim, čekajte dirigenta.
05:38
Now look at me. "Aaaaaah," and I stop you. Let's go.
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Sada me pogledajte - "Aaaaah" - i zaustavit ću vas. Pokušajmo.
05:41
Audience: ♫ ... Aaaaaaaah ... ♫
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Publika: ♫... Aaaaaah...♫
05:45
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
05:47
Itay Talgam: So we'll have a little chat later.
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Itay Talgam: OK, mi ćemo poslije malo popričati.
05:49
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
05:50
But ... There is a vacancy for a ...
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Iako, imamo slobodno mjesto za...
05:54
But -- (Laughter)
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Ali... (smijeh)
05:58
-- you could see that you could stop an orchestra with a finger.
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Vidite da možete zaustaviti orkestar pomoću prsta.
06:01
Now what does Riccardo Muti do? He does something like this ...
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No, što čini Riccardo Muti? Nešto poput ovoga...
06:06
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
06:07
And then -- sort of -- (Laughter)
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A onda nešto ovakvo... (smijeh)
06:10
So not only the instruction is clear,
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Ne samo da je uputa jasna,
06:13
but also the sanction, what will happen if you don't do what I tell you.
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nego je jasna i kazna - što će se dogoditi ako ne napraviš to što sam ti rekao.
06:16
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
06:19
So, does it work? Yes, it works --
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Dakle, funkcionira li to? Da, ali samo
06:23
to a certain point.
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do određene točke.
06:25
When Muti is asked, "Why do you conduct like this?"
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Kada su ga pitali zašto tako dirigira,
06:27
He says, "I'm responsible."
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Muti je rekao: "Ja sam odgovoran."
06:29
Responsible in front of him.
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Odgovoran sam prema njemu.
06:31
No he doesn't really mean Him. He means Mozart,
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Ne misli zapravo na Njega, misli na Mozarta
06:33
which is -- (Laughter) -- like a third seat from the center.
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koji je (smijeh) otprilike treće sjedalo od centra.
06:37
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
06:38
So he says, "If I'm --
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Rekao je: "Ako sam...
06:40
(Applause)
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(pljesak)
06:42
if I'm responsible for Mozart,
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...ako sam odgovoran prema Mozartu,
06:44
this is going to be the only story to be told.
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to će biti jedina priča koja će se ispričati.
06:46
It's Mozart as I, Riccardo Muti, understand it."
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koju ćemo samo Mozart i ja, Riccardo Muti, razumjeti."
06:50
And you know what happened to Muti?
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I znate što se dogodilo Mutiju?
06:52
Three years ago he got a letter signed by
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Prije tri godine, dobio je pismo kojeg je
06:54
all 700 employees of La Scala,
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potpisalo svih 700 zaposlenika La Scale.
06:57
musical employees, I mean the musicians,
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Kad kažem zaposlenika, mislim na glazbenike.
06:59
saying, "You're a great conductor. We don't want to work with you. Please resign."
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U pismu je stajalo: "Vi ste sjajan dirigent. Ne želimo raditi s vama. Molimo, predajte ostavku."
07:03
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
07:04
"Why? Because you don't let us develop.
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"Zašto? Jer ne dopuštate da se razvijamo.
07:07
You're using us as instruments, not as partners.
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Koristite nas kao instrumente, a ne kao partnere,
07:10
And our joy of music, etc., etc. ..."
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a naše uživanje u glazbi...itd. itd."
07:12
So he had to resign. Isn't that nice?
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I tako je morao otići. Nije li to lijepo?
07:14
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
07:16
He's a nice guy. He's a really nice guy.
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On je dobar tip, stvarno je dobar.
07:19
Well, can you do it with less control,
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Dakle, može li se raditi s manje kontrole
07:22
or with a different kind of control?
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ili s drugom vrstom kontrole?
07:24
Let's look at the next conductor, Richard Strauss.
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Pogledajmo sljedećeg dirigenta, Richarda Straussa.
07:30
(Music)
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(glazba)
07:58
I'm afraid you'll get the feeling that I really picked on him because he's old.
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Bojim se da imate osjećaj da sam ga izabrao upravo zato jer je star,
08:02
It's not true. When he was a young man
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no to nije točno. Kada je bio mladić,
08:05
of about 30, he wrote what he called
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od 30-ak godina, napisao je nešto što je nazvao
08:07
"The Ten Commandments for Conductors."
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"10 zapovijedi za dirigente".
08:09
The first one was: If you sweat by the end of the concert
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Prva je bila: Ako se uznojite do kraja koncerta,
08:12
it means that you must have done something wrong.
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znači da ste nešto krivo napravili.
08:14
That's the first one. The fourth one you'll like better.
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To je prva. Četvrta će vam se više svidjeti, a kaže:
08:16
It says: Never look at the trombones --
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Nikada ne gledajte trombone -
08:18
it only encourages them.
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to ih samo potiče.
08:20
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
08:25
So, the whole idea is really to let
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Cijela ideja je zapravo pustiti
08:27
it happen by itself.
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da se samo dogodi,
08:29
Do not interfere.
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ne uplitati se.
08:31
But how does it happen? Did you see
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Ali kako se to događa? Jeste li ga vidjeli
08:34
him turning pages in the score?
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kako okreće stranice partiture?
08:36
Now, either he is senile,
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Znači, ili je senilan
08:38
and doesn't remember his own music, because he wrote the music.
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i ne sjeća se vlastite glazbe, budući da ju je sam napisao -
08:41
Or he is actually transferring a very strong message to them, saying,
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ili im zapravo prenosi vrlo snažnu poruku, koja kaže:
08:44
"Come on guys. You have to play by the book.
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"Ajmo, ljudi, morate svirati kako piše.
08:48
So it's not about my story. It's not about your story.
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Ne radi se o mojoj priči niti o vašoj,
08:50
It's only the execution of the written music,
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to je samo izvedba napisane glazbe,
08:53
no interpretation."
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a ne interpretacija."
08:55
Interpretation is the real story of the performer.
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Interpretacija je stvarna priča izvođača,
08:58
So, no, he doesn't want that. That's a different kind of control.
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no on to ne želi. To je drukčija vrsta kontrole.
09:01
Let's see another super-conductor,
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Pogledajmo još jednog odličnog dirigenta,
09:04
a German super-conductor. Herbert von Karajan, please.
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njemačkog dirigenta Herberta von Karajana.
09:07
(Music)
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(glazba)
09:40
What's different? Did you see the eyes? Closed.
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Što je drukčije? Jeste li vidjeli oči? Zatvorene su.
09:43
Did you see the hands?
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Jeste li vidjeli ruke?
09:46
Did you see this kind of movement? Let me conduct you. Twice.
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Jeste li vidjeli ovakav pokret? Dajte da vas vodim. Dva puta.
09:49
Once like a Muti, and you'll -- (Claps) -- clap, just once.
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Jednom kao Muti kada ćete - (pljesne) - pljesnuti samo jednom,
09:51
And then like Karajan. Let's see what happens. Okay?
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a onda kao Karajan. Pogledajmo što se događa, OK?
09:53
Like Muti. You ready? Because Muti ...
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Kao Muti - jeste li spremni? Jer Muti...
09:56
(Laughter) Okay? Ready? Let's do it.
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(smijeh) OK, spremni? Krenimo.
09:59
Audience: (Claps)
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Publika: (pljesak)
10:00
Itay Talgam: Hmm ... again.
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Itay Talgam: Hm...još jednom.
10:02
Audience: (Claps)
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Publika: (pljesak)
10:04
Itay Talgam: Good. Now like a Karajan. Since you're already trained,
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Itay Talgam: Dobro, a sada poput Karajana. Pošto ste već uvježbani,
10:06
let me concentrate, close my eyes. Come, come.
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Prvo ću se koncentrirati, zatvoriti oči...može.
10:11
Audience: (Claps) (Laughter)
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Publika: (pljesak) (smijeh)
10:13
Itay Talgam: Why not together? (Laughter)
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Itay Talgam: Zašto niste skupa? (smijeh)
10:15
Because you didn't know when to play.
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Zato što niste znali kada trebate krenuti.
10:17
Now I can tell you, even the Berlin Philharmonic
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Znate, čak ni Berlinska filharmonija
10:19
doesn't know when to play.
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ne zna kada treba krenuti.
10:21
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
10:22
But I'll tell you how they do it. No cynicism.
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Reći ću vam kako, bez cinizma.
10:24
This is a German orchestra, yes?
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To je njemački orkestar, OK?
10:26
They look at Karajan. And then they look at each other.
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Gledaju u Karajana, a onda gledaju jedni u druge.
10:30
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
10:33
"Do you understand what this guy wants?"
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"Razumiješ li što ovaj tip hoće?"
10:36
And after doing that,
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Poslije toga, zaista se
10:38
they really look at each other, and the first players of the orchestra
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pogledaju te prvi svirači u orkestru
10:40
lead the whole ensemble in playing together.
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povedu cijelu ansambl u zajedničko sviranje.
10:43
And when Karajan is asked about it
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Kada su Karajana pitali o tome,
10:45
he actually says, "Yes, the worst damage
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rekao je: "Da, najveća šteta koju
10:47
I can do to my orchestra
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mogu učiniti svom orkestru
10:49
is to give them a clear instruction.
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je dati im jasnu uputu,
10:53
Because that would
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zato što bi to onemogućilo
10:55
prevent the ensemble, the listening to each other
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da slušaju jedni druge,
10:59
that is needed for an orchestra."
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što je za orkestar nužno."
11:01
Now that's great. What about the eyes?
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To je sjajno. A što je s očima?
11:03
Why are the eyes closed?
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Zašto su zatvorene?
11:05
There is a wonderful story about Karajan conducting in London.
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Postoji prekrasna priča o Karajanovom dirigiranju u Londonu.
11:09
And he cues in a flute player like this.
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Dao je ovakav znak flautistu.
11:12
The guy has no idea what to do. (Laughter)
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Čovjek nije imao pojma što učiniti. (smijeh)
11:15
"Maestro, with all due respect, when should I start?"
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"Maestro, uz dužno poštovanje, kada bih trebao početi?"
11:18
What do you think Karajan's reply was? When should I start?
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Što mislite da je bio Karajanov odgovor - kada početi?
11:21
Oh yeah. He says, "You start when you can't stand it anymore."
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Rekao mu je: "Počni onda kada više ne budeš mogao izdržati."
11:25
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
11:28
Meaning that you know you have no authority to change anything.
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Što znači da nemaš autoritet išta promijeniti,
11:33
It's my music. The real music is only in Karajan's head.
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to je moja glazba. Prava glazba je samo u Karajanovoj glavi i
11:37
And you have to guess my mind. So you are under tremendous pressure
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ti moraš pogoditi što mislim. Zato si pod strašnim pritiskom,
11:40
because I don't give you instruction,
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najprije ti ne dam znak,
11:42
and yet, you have to guess my mind.
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a opet, moraš pogoditi što mislim.
11:44
So it's a different kind of, a very spiritual but yet
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To je drukčija vrsta, prilično duhovne, ali opet
11:46
very firm control.
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vrlo čvrste kontrole.
11:49
Can we do it in another way? Of course we can. Let's go back
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Možemo li drukčije? Naravno. Vratimo se
11:51
to the first conductor we've seen:
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prvom dirigentu kojeg smo vidjeli,
11:53
Carlos Kleiber, his name. Next video, please.
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Carlosu Kleiberu. Molim sljedeću snimku.
11:57
(Music)
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(glazba)
12:53
(Laughter) Yeah.
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(smijeh) Da.
12:55
Well, it is different. But isn't that controlling in the same way?
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Ovo je drukčije. No, nije li to ista vrsta kontrole?
12:58
No, it's not, because he is not telling them what to do.
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Ne nije, jer im on ne govori što trebaju učiniti.
13:01
When he does this, it's not,
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Kada napravi ovo, to ne znači:
13:03
"Take your Stradivarius and like Jimi Hendrix,
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"Uzmi svog Stradivarija pa ga, kao Jimi Hendrix,
13:06
smash it on the floor." It's not that.
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razbij o pod." Nije to.
13:08
He says, "This is the gesture of the music.
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On kaže ovo: "Ovo je pokret glazbe,
13:10
I'm opening a space for you
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otvaram vam prostor za
13:12
to put in another layer
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još jedan sloj
13:14
of interpretation."
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interpretacije."
13:16
That is another story.
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To je druga priča.
13:18
But how does it really work together
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No, kako to sve skupa funkcionira
13:20
if it doesn't give them instructions?
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ako im on ne da upute?
13:22
It's like being on a rollercoaster. Yeah?
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To je poput rollercoastera
13:24
You're not really given any instructions,
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kada zapravo nemate nikakve upute,
13:26
but the forces of the process itself keep you in place.
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ali vas sile samog procesa drže na mjestu.
13:30
That's what he does.
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On čini upravo to.
13:32
The interesting thing is of course the rollercoaster does not really exist.
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Zanimljivo je to da rollercoaster, naravno, zapravo ne postoji.
13:34
It's not a physical thing. It's in the players' heads.
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On nije fizička stvar, nego je u glavama svirača.
13:38
And that's what makes them into partners.
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To je ono što ih čini partnerima.
13:41
You have the plan in your head.
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Moraš imati plan u glavi.
13:43
You know what to do, even though Kleiber is not conducting you.
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Znaš što treba činiti, iako Kleiber ne dirigira vama,
13:46
But here and there and that. You know what to do.
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nego tu, tu i tu. Znaš što treba činiti.
13:49
And you become a partner building the rollercoaster,
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Time postaješ partner u izgradnji rollercoastera
13:52
yeah, with sound,
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sa zvukom,
13:54
as you actually take the ride.
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a istovremeno se i voziš.
13:56
This is very exciting for those players.
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Sviračima je to vrlo uzbudljivo,
13:59
They do need to go to a sanatorium for two weeks, later.
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toliko da poslije moraju dva tjedna biti u sanatoriju.
14:01
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
14:02
It is very tiring. Yeah?
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To je vrlo zamorno,
14:04
But it's the best music making, like this.
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ali je i najbolje stvaranje glazbe.
14:08
But of course it's not only about motivation
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Naravno, ne radi se samo o motivaciji i
14:11
and giving them a lot of physical energy.
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predavanju velike fizičke energije,
14:14
You also have to be very professional.
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potrebno je biti vrlo profesionalan.
14:16
And look again at this Kleiber.
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Pogledajmo još jednom Kleibera.
14:18
Can we have the next video, quickly?
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Možemo li brzo vidjeti sljedeću snimku?
14:20
You'll see what happens when there is a mistake.
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Vidjet ćete što se događa kada netko pogriješi.
14:24
(Music) Again you see the beautiful body language.
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(glazba) Još jednom možete vidjeti prekrasan govor tijela.
14:27
(Music)
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(glazba)
14:33
And now there is a trumpet player who
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Ovdje trubač čini nešto što
14:36
does something not exactly the way it should be done.
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ne bi trebao.
14:38
Go along with the video. Look.
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Pratite snimku, gledajte.
14:43
See, second time for the same player.
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Vidite, drugi put istom sviraču.
14:49
(Laughter) And now the third time for the same player.
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(smijeh) A sada i treći put istom sviraču.
14:56
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
14:57
"Wait for me after the concert.
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"Čekaj me poslije koncerta,
14:59
I have a short notice to give you."
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moram ti uručiti otkaz."
15:01
You know, when it's needed, the authority is there. It's very important.
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Vidite, kada je potreban, autoritet je prisutan. To je vrlo važno.
15:05
But authority is not enough to make people your partners.
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No, autoritet nije dovoljan da bi ljude učinili svojim partnerima.
15:08
Let's see the next video, please. See what happens here.
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Molim sljedeću snimku. Pogledajmo što se ovdje događa.
15:10
You might be surprised having seen Kleiber
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Možda će vas iznenaditi
15:12
as such a hyperactive guy.
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Kleiberova hiperaktivnost.
15:15
He's conducting Mozart.
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Dirigira Mozarta.
15:17
(Music)
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(glazba)
15:20
The whole orchestra is playing.
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Svira cijeli orkestar.
15:22
(Music)
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(glazba)
15:24
Now something else.
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A sada nešto drugo.
15:26
(Music)
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(glazba)
15:36
See? He is there 100 percent,
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Vidite? Sav je u tome,
15:40
but not commanding, not telling what to do.
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ali ne zapovijeda, ne govori što treba činiti.
15:42
Rather enjoying what the soloist is doing.
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Umjesto toga, on uživa u izvedbi solista.
15:45
(Music)
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(glazba)
15:48
Another solo now. See what you can pick up from this.
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Evo još jednog sola. Pogledajte što možete iščitati iz ovoga.
15:51
(Music)
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(glazba)
15:57
Look at the eyes.
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Pogledajte oči.
16:03
Okay. You see that?
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OK. Jeste li vidjeli?
16:05
First of all, it's a kind of a compliment we all like to get.
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Prije svega, svi volimo primiti takvu vrstu komplimenta.
16:08
It's not feedback. It's an "Mmmm ..." Yeah, it comes from here.
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To nije povratna informacija. To je "Mmmm..." i dolazi odavde.
16:11
So that's a good thing.
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To je dobra stvar.
16:13
And the second thing is
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A druga stvar je
16:15
it's about actually being in control,
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vezana uz kontrolu,
16:17
but in a very special way.
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ali na jedan poseban način.
16:19
When Kleiber does -- did you see the eyes,
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Kada Kleiber učini ovo - jeste li vidjeli oči -
16:22
going from here? (Singing)
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odavde (pjeva),
16:24
You know what happens? Gravitation is no more.
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znate što se događa? Gravitacija nestaje.
16:28
Kleiber not only creates a process,
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Kleiber ne stvara samo proces,
16:30
but also creates the conditions in the world
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nego i uvjete u svijetu
16:33
in which this process takes place.
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u kojem se taj proces odvija.
16:36
So again, the oboe player
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Tako oboist postaje
16:38
is completely autonomous
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potpuno samostalan,
16:40
and therefore happy and proud of his work,
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a time i sretan i ponosan na svoj rad,
16:43
and creative and all of that.
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kreativnost i sve to.
16:45
And the level in which Kleiber is in control is in a different level.
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Razina Kleiberove kontrole je ne sasvim drugom stupnju.
16:49
So control is no longer a zero-sum game.
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Kontrola više nije igra nulte sume.
16:52
You have this control. You have this control. And all you put together,
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Imate jednu kontrolu, imate drugu kontrolu i onda ih spojite.
16:54
in partnership, brings about the best music.
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Partnerstvo izvlači ono najbolje iz glazbe.
16:58
So Kleiber is about process.
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Kleiberu su važni procesi,
17:00
Kleiber is about conditions in the world.
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uvjeti u svijetu.
17:02
But you need to have process and content to create the meaning.
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No, morate imati i proces i sadržaj da biste stvorili smisao.
17:06
Lenny Bernstein, my own personal maestro.
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Lenny Bernstein, moj osobni maestro,
17:08
Since he was a great teacher,
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budući da je bio sjajan učitelj,
17:11
Lenny Bernstein always started from the meaning. Look at this, please.
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uvijek je kretao od smisla. Pogledajmo.
17:17
(Music)
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(glazba)
18:16
Do you remember the face of Muti, at the beginning?
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Sjećate li se Mutijevog lica s početka?
18:18
Well he had a wonderful expression, but only one.
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Imao je krasan izraz, ali samo jedan.
18:21
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
18:22
Did you see Lenny's face?
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Jeste li vidjeli Lennyjevo lice?
18:24
You know why? Because the meaning of the music is pain.
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Znate zašto? Jer je smisao glazbe bol.
18:28
And you're playing a painful sound.
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Svirate bolan zvuk,
18:30
And you look at Lenny and he's suffering.
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pogledate Lennyja koji pati.
18:33
But not in a way that you want to stop.
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No, ne na način koji biste željeli zaustaviti.
18:35
It's suffering, like, enjoying himself in a Jewish way, as they say.
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Ta je patnja poput izreke "uživati na židovski način".
18:39
(Laughter)
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(smijeh)
18:43
But you can see the music on his face.
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No, možete mu na licu vidjeti glazbu.
18:46
You can see the baton left his hand. No more baton.
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Vidite da više nema palicu u lijevoj ruci, nestala je.
18:49
Now it's about you, the player,
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Radi se o o vama, sviraču,
18:51
telling the story.
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koji priča priču.
18:53
Now it's a reversed thing. You're telling the story. And you're telling the story.
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Sada je obrnuto, vi i vi pričate priču.
18:55
And even briefly, you become the storyteller
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Makar nakratko, vi postajete pripovjedač
18:58
to which the community, the whole community, listens to.
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kojega sluša cijela zajednica,
19:01
And Bernstein enables that. Isn't that wonderful?
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a Bernstein to omogućuje. Nije li to krasno?
19:05
Now, if you are doing all the things we talked about, together,
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Ako zajedno činite sve te stvari o kojima smo pričali,
19:09
and maybe some others,
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a možda još i neke druge,
19:11
you can get to this wonderful point of doing without doing.
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možete doći do te prelijepe točke "rada bez rada".
19:14
And for the last video, I think this is simply the best title.
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Mislim da je ovo najbolji naslov za sljedeću snimku.
19:19
My friend Peter says,
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Moj prijatelj Peter kaže:
19:21
"If you love something, give it away." So, please.
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"Ako nešto volite, podijelite to." Zato, krenimo.
19:25
(Music)
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(glazba)
20:29
(Applause)
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(pljesak)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Itay Talgam - Conductor and leadership expertAfter a decade-long conducting career in his native Israel, Itay Talgam has reinvented himself as a "conductor of people" -- in government, academia, business and education. He is the author of The Ignorant Maestro.
Why you should listen
Itay Talgam finds metaphors for organizational behavior -- and models for inspired leadership -- within the workings of the symphony orchestra. Imagining music as a model for all spheres of human creativity, from the classroom to the boardroom, Talgam created the Maestro Leadership Program.
Talgam's workshops aim to help everyday people develop a musician's sense of collaboration, and a conductor's sense of leadership: that inner sense of being intuitively, even subconsciously, connected to your fellow players, giving what they need and getting what you need. It's this art of listening and reacting in the moment that makes for a swinging jazz combo, a sublime string quartet, a brilliant orchestra -- and great teams at work.
Before he conducted people, Talgam conducted music, including numerous orchestras in Europe. He was the first Israeli conductor to perform with the St. Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra and the Leipzig Opera house. His book, The Ignorant Maestro, was published in 2015.
Itay Talgam | Speaker | TED.com