Global Witness
Robert Palmer: The Panama Papers exposed a huge global problem. What's next?
Robert Palmer: „Panama Papers“ atskleidė didžiulę pasaulinę problemą. Kas toliau?
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2016 m. balandžio 3 d. nutekinta daugiausia duomenų istorijoje. „Panama Papers“ demaskavo įtakingus žmones, slepiančius didžiules sumas ofšorinėse sąskaitose. Ką tai reiškia? Paskambinome Robert Palmer iš „Global Witness“ organizacijos, kad mums visa tai paaiškintų.
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global Witness
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
[On April 3, 2016 we saw
the largest data leak in history.]
the largest data leak in history.]
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2016 m. balandžio 3 d. nutekinta
daugiausia duomenų istorijoje.
daugiausia duomenų istorijoje.
00:18
[The Panama Papers exposed
rich and powerful people]
rich and powerful people]
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„Panama Papers“ demaskavo
įtakingus žmones,
įtakingus žmones,
00:20
[hiding vast amounts of money
in offshore accounts.]
in offshore accounts.]
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slepiančius didžiules sumas
ofšorininėse sąskaitose.
ofšorininėse sąskaitose.
00:23
[What does this mean?]
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Ką tai reiškia?
Skambinome Robert Palmer iš „Global
Witness org.“, kad paaiškintų.
Witness org.“, kad paaiškintų.
00:27
[We called Robert Palmer
of Global Witness to explain.]
of Global Witness to explain.]
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00:32
This week, there have been
a whole slew and deluge of stories
a whole slew and deluge of stories
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Šią savaitę pradėjo plūsti istorijos
00:37
coming out from the leak
of 11 million documents
of 11 million documents
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apie 11 mln. dokumentų nutekinimą
00:41
from a Panamanian-based law firm
called Mossack Fonseca.
called Mossack Fonseca.
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iš teisininkų kontoros Panamoje,
pavadinimu „Mossack Fonseca“.
pavadinimu „Mossack Fonseca“.
00:45
The release of these papers from Panama
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
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Dokumentai iš Panamos
praskleidė paslapties šydą,
praskleidė paslapties šydą,
00:51
of the secretive offshore world.
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dengusį ofšorinį pasaulį.
00:53
We get an insight into how clients
and banks and lawyers
and banks and lawyers
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Pamatėme, kad klientai,
bankai, teisininkai
bankai, teisininkai
00:58
go to companies like Mossack Fonseca
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kreipiasi į kompanijas
kaip „Mossack Fonseca“,
kaip „Mossack Fonseca“,
01:01
and say, "OK, we want
an anonymous company,
an anonymous company,
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prašydami anoniminių kompanijų.
01:03
can you give us one?"
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01:04
So you actually get to see the emails,
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Pamatėme elektroninius laiškus
01:06
you get to see the exchanges of messages,
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01:08
you get to see the mechanics
of how this works,
of how this works,
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ir kaip panašūs reikalai veikia.
01:11
how this operates.
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01:13
Now, this has already started
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
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Iškart sulaukėme atgarsio.
01:17
The Prime Minister
of Iceland has resigned.
of Iceland has resigned.
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Islandijos premjeras atsistatydino.
01:20
We've also had news
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Dar viena naujiena – sirų diktatoriaus,
01:21
that an ally of the brutal
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
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žiauriojo Bashar Al-Assad, sąjungininkas
01:26
has also got offshore companies.
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irgi turi ofšorinių kompanijų.
01:28
There's been allegations
of a $2 billion money trail
of a $2 billion money trail
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Įtariama, kad šešėlinių verslų apyvarta,
sudaranti 2 mlrd. JAV dolerių,
sudaranti 2 mlrd. JAV dolerių,
01:34
that leads back to President
Vladimir Putin of Russia
Vladimir Putin of Russia
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susijusi su Rusijos prezidentu
Vladimiru Putinu
Vladimiru Putinu
01:38
via his close childhood friend,
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ir jo vaikystės draugu,
01:40
who happens to be a top cellist.
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įžymiu violančelininku.
01:42
And there will be a lot
of rich individuals out there
of rich individuals out there
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Yra daugiau turtuolių,
01:45
and others who will be nervous
about the next set of stories
about the next set of stories
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kurie susirūpinę lauks naujų istorijų,
01:49
and the next set of leaked documents.
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apie dar vieną dokumentų nutekėjimą.
01:52
Now, this sounds like the plot
of a spy thriller
of a spy thriller
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Visa tai skamba kaip šnipų trileris
01:56
or a John Grisham novel.
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arba John Grisham romanas,
01:58
It seems very distant
from you, me, ordinary people.
from you, me, ordinary people.
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nesusijęs su mumis, paprastais žmonėmis.
02:02
Why should we care about this?
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Kodėl mūms turėtų rūpėti?
02:04
But the truth is that if rich
and powerful individuals
and powerful individuals
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Iš tiesų, jei turtingi ir galingi asmenys
02:09
are able to keep their money offshore
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gali laikyti piningus ofšore
02:11
and not pay the taxes that they should,
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ir nemokėti mokesčių,
02:14
it means that there is less money
for vital public services
for vital public services
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tai lieka mažiau lėšų būtinoms
viešosioms paslaugoms,
viešosioms paslaugoms,
02:18
like healthcare, education, roads.
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kaip sveikatos priežiūra,
švietimas, kelių tvarkymas.
švietimas, kelių tvarkymas.
02:21
And that affects all of us.
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Tai svarbu mums visiems.
02:24
Now, for my organization Global Witness,
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Mano „Global Witness“ organizacijai
02:26
this exposé has been phenomenal.
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šis viešas demaskavimas fenomenalus.
02:30
We have the world's media
and political leaders
and political leaders
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Žiniasklaida ir politiniai lyderiai
svarsto,
svarsto,
02:35
talking about how individuals
can use offshore secrecy
can use offshore secrecy
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kaip ofšorinė erdvė gali būti panaudojama
02:40
to hide and disguise their assets --
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slėpti savo lėšoms.
02:42
something we have been talking about
and exposing for a decade.
and exposing for a decade.
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Mes jau dešimtmetį apie tai diskutavome.
02:47
Now, I think a lot of people find
this entire world baffling and confusing,
this entire world baffling and confusing,
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Manau, daugelį ofšoro pasaulis glumina,
02:52
and hard to understand how
this sort of offshore world works.
this sort of offshore world works.
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nesuprantama, kaip jis veikia.
02:56
I like to think of it a bit
like a Russian doll.
like a Russian doll.
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Aš jį įsivaizduoju kaip matriošką.
02:59
So you can have one company
stacked inside another company,
stacked inside another company,
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Kompanija gali būti kitoje kompanijoje,
03:02
stacked inside another company,
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o ta – dar kitoje.
03:05
making it almost impossible
to really understand
to really understand
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Dėl to sunku atsekti,
03:09
who is behind these structures.
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kas slepiasi už visos struktūros.
03:11
It can be very difficult
for law enforcement
for law enforcement
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Dėl to sudėtinga vykdyti teisinę apsaugą,
03:14
or tax authorities,
journalists, civil society
journalists, civil society
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o mokesčių institucijoms,
žurnalistams, paprastiems piliečiams
žurnalistams, paprastiems piliečiams
03:17
to really understand what's going on.
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nepavyksta suprasti, kas vyksta.
03:20
I also think it's interesting
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Įdomu tai,
03:21
that there's been less coverage
of this issue in the United States.
of this issue in the United States.
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kad šis įvykis nesukrėtė
JAV žiniasklaidos.
JAV žiniasklaidos.
03:25
And that's perhaps because
some prominent US people
some prominent US people
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Galbūt, JAV garsenybės
skandale tiesiog nefigūravo.
skandale tiesiog nefigūravo.
03:28
just haven't figured
in this exposé, in this scandal.
in this exposé, in this scandal.
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03:33
Now, that's not because
there are no rich Americans
there are no rich Americans
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Tai nereiškia, kad neegzistuoja
turtingų amerikiečių,
turtingų amerikiečių,
03:37
who are stashing their assets offshore.
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kurie slepia lėšas ofšore.
03:40
It's just because of the way
in which offshore works,
in which offshore works,
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Taip yra todėl,
03:43
Mossack Fonseca has fewer
American clients.
American clients.
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kad „Mossack Fonseca“ turi
mažiau klientų JAV.
mažiau klientų JAV.
03:47
I think if we saw leaks
from the Cayman Islands
from the Cayman Islands
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Manau, jei dokumentai būtų nutekinti iš
03:50
or even from Delaware
or Wyoming or Nevada,
or Wyoming or Nevada,
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Kaimanų salų, Delavero, Vajomingo
arba Nevados valstijų,
arba Nevados valstijų,
03:54
you would see many more cases
and examples linking back to Americans.
and examples linking back to Americans.
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matytume daugiau sąsajų su amerikiečiais.
04:00
In fact, in a number of US states
you need less information,
you need less information,
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Iš tiesų, daugybėje JAV valstijų
kompanijai atidaryti reikia
pateikti mažiau informacijos,
pateikti mažiau informacijos,
04:06
you need to provide less
information to get a company
information to get a company
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04:10
than you do to get a library card.
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nei įsigyjant bibliotekos kortelę.
04:13
That sort of secrecy in America
has allowed employees of school districts
has allowed employees of school districts
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Privatumas Amerikoje leidžia
apygardų mokyklų darbuotojams
apygardų mokyklų darbuotojams
04:19
to rip off schoolchildren.
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plėšti mokinius, sukčiams – investuotojus.
04:20
It has allowed scammers
to rip off vulnerable investors.
to rip off vulnerable investors.
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04:26
This is the sort of behavior
that affects all of us.
that affects all of us.
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Tai veikia mus visus.
04:30
Now, at Global Witness,
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„Global Witness“ norėjo sužinoti,
04:32
we wanted to see what this
actually looked like in practice.
actually looked like in practice.
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kaip ofšoras atrodo praktikoje.
04:35
How does this actually work?
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Kaip tai veikia?
04:37
So what we did
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04:38
is we sent in an undercover investigator
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
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Taigi, mes slapta nusiuntėme tyrėjų
į trylika Manhatano teisininkų kontorų.
04:45
Our investigator posed
as an African minister
as an African minister
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Vienas tyrėjų vaidino
Afrikos valstybės tarnautoją,
Afrikos valstybės tarnautoją,
04:49
who wanted to move suspect funds
into the United States
into the United States
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kuris nori perkelti įtartinų lėšų į JAV,
04:53
to buy a house, a yacht, a jet.
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kad nusipirktų namą, jachtą, lėktuvą.
04:57
Now, what was truly shocking
was that all but one of those lawyers
was that all but one of those lawyers
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Šokiravo tai, kad visi,
išskyrus vieną tyrėją,
išskyrus vieną tyrėją,
05:02
provided our investigator with suggestions
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gavo patarimų, kaip pervesti lėšas.
05:06
on how to move those suspect funds.
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05:08
These were all preliminary meetings,
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Tai buvo tik preliminarūs susitikimai,
05:10
and none of the lawyers
took us on as a client
took us on as a client
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jokie teisininkai nepriėmė jų
kaip klientų,
kaip klientų,
05:13
and of course no money moved hands,
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o pinigai nebuvo perversti.
05:15
but it really shows the problem
with the system.
with the system.
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Vis dėlto, sistemoje yra problemų.
05:18
It's also important
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Svarbu pabrėžti,
05:20
to not just think about this
as individual cases.
as individual cases.
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kad tai ne individualus atvejis,
05:24
This is not just about
an individual lawyer
an individual lawyer
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kai vienas teisininkas vienam
tyrėjui suteikė informacijos.
tyrėjui suteikė informacijos.
05:26
who's spoken to our undercover
investigator and provided suggestions.
investigator and provided suggestions.
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Situacija nėra ir apie tam tikrą politiką,
05:30
It's not just about
a particular senior politician
a particular senior politician
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05:33
who's been caught up in a scandal.
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kuris įsivėlė į skandalą.
05:34
This is about how a system works,
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Esmė tame, kaip sistema veikia,
05:37
that entrenches corruption,
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
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kaip leidžiama įsigalėti korupcijai,
išsisukinėjimui nuo mokesčių,
išsisukinėjimui nuo mokesčių,
skurdui ir nestabilumui.
05:43
And in order to tackle this,
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Nugalėsime problemą,
05:45
we need to change the game.
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pakeitę žaidimą
05:47
We need to change the rules of the game
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ir jo taisykles taip,
kad taip elgis nebūtų lengva.
05:50
to make this sort of behavior harder.
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05:52
This may seem like doom and gloom,
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Gali atrodyti, jog jau per vėlu,
nieko nebegalime padaryti,
05:54
like there's nothing we can do about it,
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lyg niekas niekada nesikeičia,
05:56
like nothing has ever changed,
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05:58
like there will always be rich
and powerful individuals.
and powerful individuals.
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ir visuomet bus turtingų, įtakingų žmonių.
Tačiau aš – optimistas iš prigimties,
06:01
But as a natural optimist,
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matau, jog jau yra pokyčių.
06:04
I do see that we are starting
to get some change.
to get some change.
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Pastaruoju metu skatinamas skaidrumas
06:07
Over the last couple of years,
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06:09
we've seen a real push towards
greater transparency
greater transparency
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06:13
when it comes to company ownership.
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reikaluose, susijusiuose
su kompanijų valdymu.
su kompanijų valdymu.
06:15
This issue was put on the political agenda
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Tokia veikla politinėje
programoje atsirado,
programoje atsirado,
06:18
by the UK Prime Minister David Cameron
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pradėta Jungtinės Karalystės premjero
David Cameron
David Cameron
06:20
at a big G8 Summit that was held
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
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2013 m. G8 susitikime Šiaurės Airijoje.
06:25
And since then, the European Union
is going to be creating
is going to be creating
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Nuo tada ES planuoja kurti
nacionalinius registrus,
nacionalinius registrus,
06:30
central registers at a national level
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06:32
of who really owns and controls
companies across Europe.
companies across Europe.
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kuriuose nurodomi Europos
kompanijų savininkai.
kompanijų savininkai.
06:35
One of the things that is sad is that,
actually, the US is lagging behind.
actually, the US is lagging behind.
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Deja, JAV atsilieka.
06:40
There's bipartisan legislation
that had been introduced
that had been introduced
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Kongrese buvo įvestas
bendrapartinis įstatymas,
bendrapartinis įstatymas,
06:43
in the House and the Senate,
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06:45
but it isn't making as much progress
as we'd like to see.
as we'd like to see.
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tačiau progresas nevyksta.
06:48
So we'd really want to see
the Panama leaks,
the Panama leaks,
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Todėl norėtųsi, kad Panamos nutekėjimas,
06:51
this huge peek into the offshore world,
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mums suteiktas žvilgsnis į ofšoro pasaulį
06:55
be used as a way of opening up
in the US and around the world.
in the US and around the world.
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paskatintų atvirumą JAV ir pasaulyje.
07:00
For us at Global Witness,
this is a moment for change.
this is a moment for change.
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Mes, „Global Witness“, tai matome
kaip ženklą, kad laikas permainoms.
kaip ženklą, kad laikas permainoms.
07:05
We need ordinary people to get angry
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Paprasti žmonės turi parodyti pyktį
07:09
at the way in which people
can hide their identity
can hide their identity
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dėl to, kaip dangstomasi
slaptomis kompanijomis.
slaptomis kompanijomis.
07:12
behind secret companies.
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07:14
We need business leaders
to stand up and say,
to stand up and say,
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Reikia, kad verslo lyderiai drįstų
pasakyti:
pasakyti:
07:18
"Secrecy like this is not
good for business."
good for business."
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„Paslaptims versle – ne vieta.“
07:21
We need political leaders
to recognize the problem,
to recognize the problem,
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Politikai turi pripažinti šią problemą
07:26
and to commit to changing the law
to open up this sort of secrecy.
to open up this sort of secrecy.
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ir įsipareigoti pakeisti įstatymą.
07:31
Together, we can end the secrecy
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Kartu mes galime užbaigti slapstymąsi,
07:34
that is currently allowing tax evasion,
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kuris sudaro sąlygas mokesčių vengimui,
07:38
corruption, money laundering to flourish.
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korupcijai, pinigų plovimui
ir taip suklestėti.
ir taip suklestėti.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global WitnessRobert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes.
Why you should listen
Robert Palmer is the Banks and Corruption Campaign Leader for Global Witness, whose founder Charmian Gooch won the TED Prize in 2014. The Nobel-prize nominated organization is dedicated to breaking the links between natural resources, conflict and corruption.
Palmer has led a number of high profile investigations. These include exposing how corrupt Nigerian politicians used British high street banks to move bribe money; uncovering which global banks held $65 billion of Libyan government funds; and organizing an undercover sting to show how corrupt officials can move suspect funds into the U.S. with the help of New York lawyers.
Palmer is an expert in the global anti-money laundering framework and helps to develop practical policy solutions to improve its effectiveness. He helps to lead a global coalition of civil society groups campaigning for an end to the abuse of the financial system by corrupt officials. This has led to new transparency laws in the UK and EU to tackle anonymously owned companies.
Robert Palmer | Speaker | TED.com