Global Witness
Robert Palmer: The Panama Papers exposed a huge global problem. What's next?
"Panamski papiri" razotkrili su ogroman globalni problem. Što je sljedeće?
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3. travnja 2016. svjedočili smo najvećem curenju informacija u povijesti. "Panamski papiri" razotkrili su bogate i utjecajne ljude kako skrivaju ogromne količine novca na "offshore" računima. Međutim, što sve to znači? Pozvali smo Roberta Palmera iz organizacije Global Witness kako bismo saznali.
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global Witness
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
[On April 3, 2016 we saw
the largest data leak in history.]
the largest data leak in history.]
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[3. travnja 2016. svjedočili smo
najvećem curenju podataka u povijesti.]
najvećem curenju podataka u povijesti.]
00:18
[The Panama Papers exposed
rich and powerful people]
rich and powerful people]
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[Panamski papiri otkrili su
da mnogi bogati i utjecajni ljudi]
da mnogi bogati i utjecajni ljudi]
00:20
[hiding vast amounts of money
in offshore accounts.]
in offshore accounts.]
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[skrivaju ogromne količine novca
na tzv. "offshore" računima.]
na tzv. "offshore" računima.]
00:23
[What does this mean?]
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[Što to znači?]
00:27
[We called Robert Palmer
of Global Witness to explain.]
of Global Witness to explain.]
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[Pozvali smo Roberta Palmera
iz agencije Global Witness da objasni.]
iz agencije Global Witness da objasni.]
00:32
This week, there have been
a whole slew and deluge of stories
a whole slew and deluge of stories
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Ovog tjedna mogli smo čuti
ogromnu količinu priča
ogromnu količinu priča
00:37
coming out from the leak
of 11 million documents
of 11 million documents
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proizašlih iz curenja
11 milijuna dokumenata
11 milijuna dokumenata
00:41
from a Panamanian-based law firm
called Mossack Fonseca.
called Mossack Fonseca.
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iz panamske odvjetničke tvrtke
Mossack Fonseca.
Mossack Fonseca.
00:45
The release of these papers from Panama
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
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Puštanje ovih "panamskih papira"
u javnost podiže veo tajne
u javnost podiže veo tajne
00:51
of the secretive offshore world.
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kojim je obavijen offshore svijet.
00:53
We get an insight into how clients
and banks and lawyers
and banks and lawyers
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Dobivamo uvid u to kako
klijenti i banke i odvjetnici
klijenti i banke i odvjetnici
00:58
go to companies like Mossack Fonseca
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prilaze tvrtkama kao što je
Mossack Fonseca
Mossack Fonseca
01:01
and say, "OK, we want
an anonymous company,
an anonymous company,
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i kažu: "OK, želimo anonimnu tvrtku,
01:03
can you give us one?"
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možete li nam je napraviti?"
01:04
So you actually get to see the emails,
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Možete vidjeti e-mailove,
01:06
you get to see the exchanges of messages,
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možete vidjeti razmijenjene poruke,
01:08
you get to see the mechanics
of how this works,
of how this works,
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možete zaviriti iza kulisa i vidjeti
kako to funkcionira,
kako to funkcionira,
01:11
how this operates.
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kako to rade.
01:13
Now, this has already started
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
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Neposredni odjeci ove situacije
već su vidljivi.
već su vidljivi.
01:17
The Prime Minister
of Iceland has resigned.
of Iceland has resigned.
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Islandski premijer dao je ostavku.
01:20
We've also had news
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Također dobivamo informacije
01:21
that an ally of the brutal
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
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da saveznik brutalnog sirijskog diktatora
Bashara Al-Assada
Bashara Al-Assada
01:26
has also got offshore companies.
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također posjeduje offshore tvrtke.
01:28
There's been allegations
of a $2 billion money trail
of a $2 billion money trail
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Postoje naznake o 2 milijarde
američkih dolara
američkih dolara
01:34
that leads back to President
Vladimir Putin of Russia
Vladimir Putin of Russia
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koje vuku porijeklo od
ruskog predsjednika Vladimira Putina
ruskog predsjednika Vladimira Putina
01:38
via his close childhood friend,
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preko njegovog prijatelja iz djetinjstva,
01:40
who happens to be a top cellist.
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danas vrhunskog čelista.
01:42
And there will be a lot
of rich individuals out there
of rich individuals out there
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Još će mnogo bogatih pojedinaca
01:45
and others who will be nervous
about the next set of stories
about the next set of stories
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nemirno spavati do objave sljedećeg
kompleta članaka
kompleta članaka
01:49
and the next set of leaked documents.
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i sljedećeg kompleta dokumenata.
01:52
Now, this sounds like the plot
of a spy thriller
of a spy thriller
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Sve ovo zvuči kao radnja
nekog špijunskog romana
nekog špijunskog romana
01:56
or a John Grisham novel.
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proizašlog iz pera Johna Grishama.
01:58
It seems very distant
from you, me, ordinary people.
from you, me, ordinary people.
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Čini se da nema previše veze
s vama, sa mnom, s običnim ljudima.
s vama, sa mnom, s običnim ljudima.
02:02
Why should we care about this?
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Zašto bi to trebalo zanimati nas?
02:04
But the truth is that if rich
and powerful individuals
and powerful individuals
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Međutim, realnost je ta da
ako su bogati i utjecajni pojedinci
ako su bogati i utjecajni pojedinci
02:09
are able to keep their money offshore
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u mogućnosti držati svoj novac "offshore"
02:11
and not pay the taxes that they should,
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i ne plaćati poreze koje bi trebali,
02:14
it means that there is less money
for vital public services
for vital public services
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to znači da ostaje manje novca
za ključne javne službe
za ključne javne službe
02:18
like healthcare, education, roads.
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poput zdravstva, obrazovanja ili cesta.
02:21
And that affects all of us.
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I to onda utječe na sve nas.
02:24
Now, for my organization Global Witness,
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Za moju organizaciju Global Witness,
02:26
this exposé has been phenomenal.
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ovo otkriće bilo je senzacionalno.
02:30
We have the world's media
and political leaders
and political leaders
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Napokon možemo čuti svjetske medije
i političke vođe
i političke vođe
02:35
talking about how individuals
can use offshore secrecy
can use offshore secrecy
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kako raspravljaju o načinima
na koje pojedinci mogu upotrijebiti
na koje pojedinci mogu upotrijebiti
02:40
to hide and disguise their assets --
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offshore tajnost za prikrivanje
stvarne vrijednosti svoje imovine
stvarne vrijednosti svoje imovine
02:42
something we have been talking about
and exposing for a decade.
and exposing for a decade.
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I to je ono o čemu mi govorimo
i što otkrivamo već desetljećima.
i što otkrivamo već desetljećima.
02:47
Now, I think a lot of people find
this entire world baffling and confusing,
this entire world baffling and confusing,
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Čini mi se da većina ljudi smatra
sav taj svijet zapanjujućim i zbunjujućim
sav taj svijet zapanjujućim i zbunjujućim
02:52
and hard to understand how
this sort of offshore world works.
this sort of offshore world works.
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i ne razumiju u potpunosti
kako cijeli "offshore" svijet funkcionira.
kako cijeli "offshore" svijet funkcionira.
02:56
I like to think of it a bit
like a Russian doll.
like a Russian doll.
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Ja ga često zamišljam
kao rusku lutku babušku.
kao rusku lutku babušku.
02:59
So you can have one company
stacked inside another company,
stacked inside another company,
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Znači, možete imati jednu tvrtku
unutar druge tvrtke
unutar druge tvrtke
03:02
stacked inside another company,
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koja je pak dio treće tvrtke
03:05
making it almost impossible
to really understand
to really understand
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da na kraju postaje nemoguće razumjeti
03:09
who is behind these structures.
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tko stoji iza svih tih struktura.
03:11
It can be very difficult
for law enforcement
for law enforcement
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Organima vlasti, poreznicima,
novinarima pa i javnosti
novinarima pa i javnosti
03:14
or tax authorities,
journalists, civil society
journalists, civil society
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postaje vrlo teško razumjeti
03:17
to really understand what's going on.
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što se zapravo događa.
03:20
I also think it's interesting
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Također je vrlo zanimljivo
03:21
that there's been less coverage
of this issue in the United States.
of this issue in the United States.
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da ova situacija nije toliko jako
popraćena u SAD-u.
popraćena u SAD-u.
03:25
And that's perhaps because
some prominent US people
some prominent US people
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I to je vjerojatno zato što
američki moćnici
američki moćnici
03:28
just haven't figured
in this exposé, in this scandal.
in this exposé, in this scandal.
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nisu spominjani
u ovom posljednjem skandalu.
u ovom posljednjem skandalu.
03:33
Now, that's not because
there are no rich Americans
there are no rich Americans
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Naravno, to nije zbog toga što
ne postoje bogati Amerikanci
ne postoje bogati Amerikanci
03:37
who are stashing their assets offshore.
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koji spremaju svoj novac offshore,
03:40
It's just because of the way
in which offshore works,
in which offshore works,
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već jednostavno, zbog načina
na koji offshore funkcionira,
na koji offshore funkcionira,
03:43
Mossack Fonseca has fewer
American clients.
American clients.
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Mossack Fonseca ima
nešto manje američkih klijenata.
nešto manje američkih klijenata.
03:47
I think if we saw leaks
from the Cayman Islands
from the Cayman Islands
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U slučaju da se dogodi curenje informacija
s Kajmanskih otoka
s Kajmanskih otoka
03:50
or even from Delaware
or Wyoming or Nevada,
or Wyoming or Nevada,
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ili čak iz Delawarea,
Wyominga ili Nevade,
Wyominga ili Nevade,
03:54
you would see many more cases
and examples linking back to Americans.
and examples linking back to Americans.
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vidjeli biste mnogo više primjera
koji vode do nekog Amerikanca.
koji vode do nekog Amerikanca.
04:00
In fact, in a number of US states
you need less information,
you need less information,
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Štoviše, u nekim
američkim saveznim državama
američkim saveznim državama
04:06
you need to provide less
information to get a company
information to get a company
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za osnivanje neke tvrtke
potrebno je dati manje podataka
potrebno je dati manje podataka
04:10
than you do to get a library card.
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nego što je potrebno za
dobivanje iskaznice u knjižnici.
dobivanje iskaznice u knjižnici.
04:13
That sort of secrecy in America
has allowed employees of school districts
has allowed employees of school districts
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Ovakva vrsta tajnosti podataka u Americi
omogućila je zaposlenicima školskih okruga
omogućila je zaposlenicima školskih okruga
04:19
to rip off schoolchildren.
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da varaju školarce.
04:20
It has allowed scammers
to rip off vulnerable investors.
to rip off vulnerable investors.
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Omogućila je prevarantima
da pokrada ranjive investitore.
da pokrada ranjive investitore.
04:26
This is the sort of behavior
that affects all of us.
that affects all of us.
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Ovakav tip ponašanja utječe na sve nas.
04:30
Now, at Global Witness,
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Ovdje u Global Witnessu
04:32
we wanted to see what this
actually looked like in practice.
actually looked like in practice.
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željeli smo provjeriti kako sve ovo
izgleda u praksi.
izgleda u praksi.
04:35
How does this actually work?
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Kako to zapravo funkcionira?
04:37
So what we did
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Stoga smo poslali tajnog istražitelja
04:38
is we sent in an undercover investigator
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
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na adrese 13 odvjetničkih firmi
na Manhattanu.
na Manhattanu.
04:45
Our investigator posed
as an African minister
as an African minister
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Predstavio im se kao afrički ministar
04:49
who wanted to move suspect funds
into the United States
into the United States
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koji želi prebaciti
nezakonito stečena sredstva u SAD
nezakonito stečena sredstva u SAD
04:53
to buy a house, a yacht, a jet.
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kako bi kupio kuću, ili jahtu, ili avion.
04:57
Now, what was truly shocking
was that all but one of those lawyers
was that all but one of those lawyers
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Ono što nas je šokiralo
je da su svi osim jednog odvjetnika
je da su svi osim jednog odvjetnika
05:02
provided our investigator with suggestions
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našem istražitelju dali prijedloge
05:06
on how to move those suspect funds.
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na koji način može prebaciti ta sredstva.
05:08
These were all preliminary meetings,
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To su sve bili pripremni razgovori
05:10
and none of the lawyers
took us on as a client
took us on as a client
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te nas nijedan odvjetnik
nije primio za klijente
nije primio za klijente
05:13
and of course no money moved hands,
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i naravno, nikakav novac
nije promijenio vlasnika,
nije promijenio vlasnika,
05:15
but it really shows the problem
with the system.
with the system.
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ali već i ovo pokazuje
probleme u sustavu.
probleme u sustavu.
05:18
It's also important
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Također je vrlo važno
05:20
to not just think about this
as individual cases.
as individual cases.
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da se na ovo ne gleda
kao na pojedinačne slučajeve.
kao na pojedinačne slučajeve.
05:24
This is not just about
an individual lawyer
an individual lawyer
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Ovdje nije riječ o pojedinom odvjetniku
05:26
who's spoken to our undercover
investigator and provided suggestions.
investigator and provided suggestions.
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koji je razgovarao s našim istražiteljem
i dao mu par prijedloga.
i dao mu par prijedloga.
05:30
It's not just about
a particular senior politician
a particular senior politician
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Nije ni riječ o pojedinom političaru
05:33
who's been caught up in a scandal.
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koji je uhvaćen u skandalu.
05:34
This is about how a system works,
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Ovdje je riječ o tome
kako funkcionira sustav,
kako funkcionira sustav,
05:37
that entrenches corruption,
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
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sustav koji omogućava korupciju, neplaćanje poreza,
siromaštvo i nestabilnost.
siromaštvo i nestabilnost.
05:43
And in order to tackle this,
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Kako bismo se suočili s tim problemom,
05:45
we need to change the game.
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moramo promijeniti igru.
05:47
We need to change the rules of the game
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Moramo promijeniti pravila igre
05:50
to make this sort of behavior harder.
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kako bismo otežali ovakav tip ponašanja.
05:52
This may seem like doom and gloom,
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Možda izgleda tmurno,
05:54
like there's nothing we can do about it,
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možda izgleda da
ne možemo učiniti ništa,
ne možemo učiniti ništa,
05:56
like nothing has ever changed,
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da se nikad ništa nije promijenilo,
05:58
like there will always be rich
and powerful individuals.
and powerful individuals.
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da će uvijek postojati
bogati i moćni pojedinci.
bogati i moćni pojedinci.
06:01
But as a natural optimist,
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Ali kao optimistu po prirodi,
06:04
I do see that we are starting
to get some change.
to get some change.
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izgleda mi da se neke promjene događaju.
06:07
Over the last couple of years,
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U posljednjih nekoliko godina
06:09
we've seen a real push towards
greater transparency
greater transparency
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bili smo svjedoci stvarnom nastojanju
da se uvede transparentnost
da se uvede transparentnost
06:13
when it comes to company ownership.
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po pitanju vlasništva tvrtki.
06:15
This issue was put on the political agenda
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Ovu temu je na dnevni red stavio
06:18
by the UK Prime Minister David Cameron
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britanski premijer David Cameron
06:20
at a big G8 Summit that was held
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
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na velikom skupu G8 održanom
2013. u Sjevernoj Irskoj.
2013. u Sjevernoj Irskoj.
06:25
And since then, the European Union
is going to be creating
is going to be creating
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Nakon toga, Europska unija
odlučila je stvoriti
odlučila je stvoriti
06:30
central registers at a national level
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središnje državne registre koji će pratiti
06:32
of who really owns and controls
companies across Europe.
companies across Europe.
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tko zapravo posjeduje i kontrolira
tvrtke diljem Europe.
tvrtke diljem Europe.
06:35
One of the things that is sad is that,
actually, the US is lagging behind.
actually, the US is lagging behind.
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Ono što je razočaravajuće je
da SAD zaostaje po tom pitanju.
da SAD zaostaje po tom pitanju.
06:40
There's bipartisan legislation
that had been introduced
that had been introduced
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Zakoni o ovome već su na dnevnom redu
06:43
in the House and the Senate,
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Kongresa i Senata,
06:45
but it isn't making as much progress
as we'd like to see.
as we'd like to see.
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ali ne napreduju tako brzo
kao što bismo željeli.
kao što bismo željeli.
06:48
So we'd really want to see
the Panama leaks,
the Panama leaks,
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Stoga bismo zaista željeli da
"panamski papiri",
"panamski papiri",
06:51
this huge peek into the offshore world,
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taj značajan pogled u offshore svijet,
06:55
be used as a way of opening up
in the US and around the world.
in the US and around the world.
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posluže kao način otvaranja,
kako u SAD-u tako i u svijetu.
kako u SAD-u tako i u svijetu.
07:00
For us at Global Witness,
this is a moment for change.
this is a moment for change.
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Za nas u Global Witnessu,
ovo je trenutak promjena.
ovo je trenutak promjena.
07:05
We need ordinary people to get angry
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Potrebni su nam obični pojedinci
07:09
at the way in which people
can hide their identity
can hide their identity
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koji su ljutiti zbog načina
na koji pojedinci
na koji pojedinci
07:12
behind secret companies.
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mogu sakriti svoje identitete
iza tajnih kompanija.
iza tajnih kompanija.
07:14
We need business leaders
to stand up and say,
to stand up and say,
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Potrebni su nam poslovni vođe
koji će se ustati i reći:
koji će se ustati i reći:
07:18
"Secrecy like this is not
good for business."
good for business."
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"Ovakva vrsta tajnosti
nije dobra za poslovanje."
nije dobra za poslovanje."
07:21
We need political leaders
to recognize the problem,
to recognize the problem,
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Potrebni su nam politčki vođe
koji će prepoznati problem
koji će prepoznati problem
07:26
and to commit to changing the law
to open up this sort of secrecy.
to open up this sort of secrecy.
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i usredotočiti se na mijenjanje zakona
koji bi razotkrili takvu tajnovitost.
koji bi razotkrili takvu tajnovitost.
07:31
Together, we can end the secrecy
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Zajedno možemo stati na kraj ovoj tajnosti
07:34
that is currently allowing tax evasion,
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koja trenutno dopušta cvjetanje
izbjegavanja plaćanja poreza,
izbjegavanja plaćanja poreza,
07:38
corruption, money laundering to flourish.
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korupcije i pranja novca.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global WitnessRobert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes.
Why you should listen
Robert Palmer is the Banks and Corruption Campaign Leader for Global Witness, whose founder Charmian Gooch won the TED Prize in 2014. The Nobel-prize nominated organization is dedicated to breaking the links between natural resources, conflict and corruption.
Palmer has led a number of high profile investigations. These include exposing how corrupt Nigerian politicians used British high street banks to move bribe money; uncovering which global banks held $65 billion of Libyan government funds; and organizing an undercover sting to show how corrupt officials can move suspect funds into the U.S. with the help of New York lawyers.
Palmer is an expert in the global anti-money laundering framework and helps to develop practical policy solutions to improve its effectiveness. He helps to lead a global coalition of civil society groups campaigning for an end to the abuse of the financial system by corrupt officials. This has led to new transparency laws in the UK and EU to tackle anonymously owned companies.
Robert Palmer | Speaker | TED.com