Global Witness
Robert Palmer: The Panama Papers exposed a huge global problem. What's next?
Robert Palmer: Panamski papiri su razotkrili ogroman globalni problem. Šta je sledeće?
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Bili smo svedoci, 3. aprila 2016, najvećem curenju podataka u istoriji. Panamski papiri su razotkrili bogate i moćne ljude kako skrivaju ogromne količine novca na ofšor računima. Međutim šta sve to znači? Pozvali smo Roberta Palmera iz Global Vitnesa kako bismo otkrili.
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global Witness
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
[On April 3, 2016 we saw
the largest data leak in history.]
the largest data leak in history.]
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[Bili smo svedoci, 3. aprila 2016,
najvećeg curenja podataka u istoriji.]
najvećeg curenja podataka u istoriji.]
00:18
[The Panama Papers exposed
rich and powerful people]
rich and powerful people]
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[Panamski papiri su razotkrili
bogate i moćne ljude]
bogate i moćne ljude]
00:20
[hiding vast amounts of money
in offshore accounts.]
in offshore accounts.]
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[kako kriju ogromne količine novca
na ofšor računima.]
na ofšor računima.]
00:23
[What does this mean?]
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[Šta ovo znači?]
00:27
[We called Robert Palmer
of Global Witness to explain.]
of Global Witness to explain.]
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[Pozvali smo Roberta Palmera
iz Global Vitnesa da nam objasni.]
iz Global Vitnesa da nam objasni.]
00:32
This week, there have been
a whole slew and deluge of stories
a whole slew and deluge of stories
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Ove nedelje smo imali tmuštu i tmu priča
00:37
coming out from the leak
of 11 million documents
of 11 million documents
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koje su stizale iz curenja
11 miliona dokumenata
11 miliona dokumenata
00:41
from a Panamanian-based law firm
called Mossack Fonseca.
called Mossack Fonseca.
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iz pravne firme sa sedištem u Panami
koja se zove Mosak Fonseka.
koja se zove Mosak Fonseka.
00:45
The release of these papers from Panama
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
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Objavljivanje ovih papira iz Paname
podiže veo sa sićušnog dela
podiže veo sa sićušnog dela
00:51
of the secretive offshore world.
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tajanstvenog sveta ofšora.
00:53
We get an insight into how clients
and banks and lawyers
and banks and lawyers
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Imamo uvid u to kako klijenti
i banke i advokati
i banke i advokati
00:58
go to companies like Mossack Fonseca
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odlaze u firme, poput Mosak Fonseke,
01:01
and say, "OK, we want
an anonymous company,
an anonymous company,
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i kažu: "U redu, želimo anonimnu firmu,
01:03
can you give us one?"
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možete li nam je osnovati?"
01:04
So you actually get to see the emails,
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Pa, zapravo možete da vidite imejlove,
01:06
you get to see the exchanges of messages,
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možete da vidite razmenu poruka,
01:08
you get to see the mechanics
of how this works,
of how this works,
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možete da vidite mehaniku
toga kako ovo funkcioniše,
toga kako ovo funkcioniše,
01:11
how this operates.
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kako se ovo izvodi.
01:13
Now, this has already started
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
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Sad, ovo je već počelo
da ima skoro trenutne posledice.
da ima skoro trenutne posledice.
01:17
The Prime Minister
of Iceland has resigned.
of Iceland has resigned.
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Premijer Islanda je dao ostavku.
01:20
We've also had news
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Takođe smo čuli vesti
01:21
that an ally of the brutal
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
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da saveznik brutalnog
sirijskog diktatora, Bašara el Asada,
sirijskog diktatora, Bašara el Asada,
01:26
has also got offshore companies.
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takođe ima ofšor firme.
01:28
There's been allegations
of a $2 billion money trail
of a $2 billion money trail
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Postoje navodi
traga od dve milijarde dolara
traga od dve milijarde dolara
01:34
that leads back to President
Vladimir Putin of Russia
Vladimir Putin of Russia
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koji vodi do predsednika Rusije
Vladimira Putina,
Vladimira Putina,
01:38
via his close childhood friend,
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preko njegovog bliskog prijatelja
iz detinjstva,
iz detinjstva,
01:40
who happens to be a top cellist.
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koji je slučajno vrhunski čelista.
01:42
And there will be a lot
of rich individuals out there
of rich individuals out there
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A biće tu još mnogo bogatih pojedinaca
01:45
and others who will be nervous
about the next set of stories
about the next set of stories
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i drugih koji će da budu nervozni
zbog sledećeg skupa priča,
zbog sledećeg skupa priča,
01:49
and the next set of leaked documents.
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i narednog skupa procurelih podataka.
01:52
Now, this sounds like the plot
of a spy thriller
of a spy thriller
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Sad, ovo zvuči poput zapleta
iz špijunskog trilera
iz špijunskog trilera
01:56
or a John Grisham novel.
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ili romana Džona Grišama.
01:58
It seems very distant
from you, me, ordinary people.
from you, me, ordinary people.
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Čini se veoma dalekim
od vas, mene, običnih ljudi.
od vas, mene, običnih ljudi.
02:02
Why should we care about this?
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Zašto bi nas bilo briga za ovo?
02:04
But the truth is that if rich
and powerful individuals
and powerful individuals
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Ali istina je da ako su bogati
i moćni pojedinci
i moćni pojedinci
02:09
are able to keep their money offshore
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u stanju da čuvaju svoj novac u ofšorima
02:11
and not pay the taxes that they should,
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i ne plaćaju porez
koji bi trebalo da plaćaju,
koji bi trebalo da plaćaju,
02:14
it means that there is less money
for vital public services
for vital public services
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to znači da imamo manje novca
za vitalne javne usluge,
za vitalne javne usluge,
02:18
like healthcare, education, roads.
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poput zdravstva, obrazovanja, puteva.
02:21
And that affects all of us.
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A to nas sve pogađa.
02:24
Now, for my organization Global Witness,
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Sad, za moju organizaciju, Global Vitnes,
02:26
this exposé has been phenomenal.
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ovo razotkrivanje je bilo fenomenalno.
02:30
We have the world's media
and political leaders
and political leaders
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Svetski mediji i političke vođe
02:35
talking about how individuals
can use offshore secrecy
can use offshore secrecy
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su počele da pričaju o tome kako pojedinci
mogu da koriste ofšor poverljivost
mogu da koriste ofšor poverljivost
02:40
to hide and disguise their assets --
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kako bi prikrili svoju imovinu -
02:42
something we have been talking about
and exposing for a decade.
and exposing for a decade.
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nešto o čemu govorimo
i što razotkrivamo već deceniju.
i što razotkrivamo već deceniju.
02:47
Now, I think a lot of people find
this entire world baffling and confusing,
this entire world baffling and confusing,
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Sad, mislim da mnogi ljudi pronalaze
čitav ovaj svet zbunjujućim i konfuznim
čitav ovaj svet zbunjujućim i konfuznim
02:52
and hard to understand how
this sort of offshore world works.
this sort of offshore world works.
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i teško im je da razumeju
kako ovaj svet ofšora funkcioniše.
kako ovaj svet ofšora funkcioniše.
02:56
I like to think of it a bit
like a Russian doll.
like a Russian doll.
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Volim da razmišljam o njemu
pomalo kao o babuški.
pomalo kao o babuški.
02:59
So you can have one company
stacked inside another company,
stacked inside another company,
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Pa, možete da imate jednu firmu
upakovanu unutar druge firme,
upakovanu unutar druge firme,
03:02
stacked inside another company,
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upakovanu unutar treće firme,
03:05
making it almost impossible
to really understand
to really understand
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zbog čega je skoro nemoguće
zaista razumeti
zaista razumeti
03:09
who is behind these structures.
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ko stoji iza ovih struktura.
03:11
It can be very difficult
for law enforcement
for law enforcement
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Može da bude veoma teško za policiju
03:14
or tax authorities,
journalists, civil society
journalists, civil society
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ili poreske vlasti,
novinare, građansko društvo
novinare, građansko društvo
03:17
to really understand what's going on.
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da zaista shvate o čemu se radi.
03:20
I also think it's interesting
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Takođe smatram zanimljivim
03:21
that there's been less coverage
of this issue in the United States.
of this issue in the United States.
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to što se ovim pitanjem
manje bave u Sjedinjenim Državama.
manje bave u Sjedinjenim Državama.
03:25
And that's perhaps because
some prominent US people
some prominent US people
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A to je možda zato što neki ugledni
ljudi iz SAD-a
ljudi iz SAD-a
03:28
just haven't figured
in this exposé, in this scandal.
in this exposé, in this scandal.
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prosto nisu otkriveni
u ovom ekspozeu, u ovom skandalu.
u ovom ekspozeu, u ovom skandalu.
03:33
Now, that's not because
there are no rich Americans
there are no rich Americans
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Sad, to nije zato što nema
bogatih Amerikanaca
bogatih Amerikanaca
03:37
who are stashing their assets offshore.
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koji gomilaju svoju imovinu u ofšorima.
03:40
It's just because of the way
in which offshore works,
in which offshore works,
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Već je to zbog načina
na koji ofšor funkcioniše.
na koji ofšor funkcioniše.
03:43
Mossack Fonseca has fewer
American clients.
American clients.
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Mosak Fonseka
ima manje američkih klijenata.
ima manje američkih klijenata.
03:47
I think if we saw leaks
from the Cayman Islands
from the Cayman Islands
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Mislim, da smo videli curenja
sa Kajmanskih ostrva
sa Kajmanskih ostrva
03:50
or even from Delaware
or Wyoming or Nevada,
or Wyoming or Nevada,
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ili čak iz Delavera
ili Vajominga ili Nevade,
ili Vajominga ili Nevade,
03:54
you would see many more cases
and examples linking back to Americans.
and examples linking back to Americans.
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videli biste mnogo više slučajeva
i primera koji vode do Amerikanaca.
i primera koji vode do Amerikanaca.
04:00
In fact, in a number of US states
you need less information,
you need less information,
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Zapravo, u brojnim državama SAD-a
potrebno vam je manje informacija,
potrebno vam je manje informacija,
04:06
you need to provide less
information to get a company
information to get a company
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potrebno vam je manje informacija
da pokrenete firmu
da pokrenete firmu
04:10
than you do to get a library card.
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nego da dobijete
člansku kartu u biblioteci.
člansku kartu u biblioteci.
04:13
That sort of secrecy in America
has allowed employees of school districts
has allowed employees of school districts
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Takav vid poverljivosti u Americi je
omogućio zaposlenima u školskim okruzima
omogućio zaposlenima u školskim okruzima
04:19
to rip off schoolchildren.
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da opljačkaju đake.
04:20
It has allowed scammers
to rip off vulnerable investors.
to rip off vulnerable investors.
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Omogućio je prevarantima
da opljačkaju ranjive investitore.
da opljačkaju ranjive investitore.
04:26
This is the sort of behavior
that affects all of us.
that affects all of us.
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Ovakvo ponašanje pogađa sve nas.
04:30
Now, at Global Witness,
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Sad, u Global Vitnesu
04:32
we wanted to see what this
actually looked like in practice.
actually looked like in practice.
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smo želeli da vidimo
kako ovo izgleda u praksi.
kako ovo izgleda u praksi.
04:35
How does this actually work?
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Kako ovo stvarno funkcioniše?
04:37
So what we did
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Pa smo uradili sledeće:
04:38
is we sent in an undercover investigator
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
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poslali smo istraživača u tajnosti
u 13 pravnih firmi na Menhetnu.
u 13 pravnih firmi na Menhetnu.
04:45
Our investigator posed
as an African minister
as an African minister
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Naš istraživač se predstavljao
kao afrički ministar
kao afrički ministar
04:49
who wanted to move suspect funds
into the United States
into the United States
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koji želi da prebaci sumnjive fondove
u Sjedinjene Države,
u Sjedinjene Države,
04:53
to buy a house, a yacht, a jet.
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kako bi kupio kuću, jahtu, avion.
04:57
Now, what was truly shocking
was that all but one of those lawyers
was that all but one of those lawyers
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Sad, istinski šokantno je bilo
da su svi osim jednog advokata
da su svi osim jednog advokata
05:02
provided our investigator with suggestions
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pružili našem istraživaču sugestije
05:06
on how to move those suspect funds.
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kako da prebaci sumnjive fondove.
05:08
These were all preliminary meetings,
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Ovo su sve bili preliminarni sastanci
05:10
and none of the lawyers
took us on as a client
took us on as a client
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i nijedan advokat
nas nije preuzeo za klijenta
nas nije preuzeo za klijenta
05:13
and of course no money moved hands,
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i, naravno, nikakav novac nije razmenjen,
05:15
but it really shows the problem
with the system.
with the system.
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ali ovo uistinu pokazuje problem sistema.
05:18
It's also important
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Takođe je važno
05:20
to not just think about this
as individual cases.
as individual cases.
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da ne razmišljamo o ovome
kao o pojedinačnim slučajevima.
kao o pojedinačnim slučajevima.
05:24
This is not just about
an individual lawyer
an individual lawyer
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Ne radi se prosto o pojedinačnom advokatu,
05:26
who's spoken to our undercover
investigator and provided suggestions.
investigator and provided suggestions.
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koji je razgovarao s našim prikrivenim
istraživačem i pružio sugestije.
istraživačem i pružio sugestije.
05:30
It's not just about
a particular senior politician
a particular senior politician
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Ne radi se samo
o određenom višem zvaničniku
o određenom višem zvaničniku
05:33
who's been caught up in a scandal.
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koji je umešan u skandal.
05:34
This is about how a system works,
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Radi se o tome kako sistem funkcioniše,
05:37
that entrenches corruption,
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
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tako što učvršćuje korupciju,
utaju poreza, siromaštvo i nestabilnost.
utaju poreza, siromaštvo i nestabilnost.
05:43
And in order to tackle this,
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A kako bismo se bavili ovim,
05:45
we need to change the game.
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moramo da promenimo igru.
05:47
We need to change the rules of the game
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Moramo da promenimo pravila igre
05:50
to make this sort of behavior harder.
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kako bismo otežali ovakvo ponašanje.
05:52
This may seem like doom and gloom,
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Ovo se može učiniti
kao beznadežna situacija,
kao beznadežna situacija,
05:54
like there's nothing we can do about it,
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nešto povodom čega ne možemo bilo šta,
05:56
like nothing has ever changed,
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kao da se ništa nikad ne menja,
05:58
like there will always be rich
and powerful individuals.
and powerful individuals.
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kao da će uvek da postoje
bogati i moćni pojedinci.
bogati i moćni pojedinci.
06:01
But as a natural optimist,
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Ali kao optimista po prirodi,
06:04
I do see that we are starting
to get some change.
to get some change.
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vidim da počinjemo
da dobijamo neke promene.
da dobijamo neke promene.
06:07
Over the last couple of years,
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U proteklih nekoliko godina,
06:09
we've seen a real push towards
greater transparency
greater transparency
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videli smo istinski pomak
ka većoj transparentnosti,
ka većoj transparentnosti,
06:13
when it comes to company ownership.
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kad se radi o vlasništvu firmi.
06:15
This issue was put on the political agenda
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Ovo pitanje
je na politički dnevni red stavio
je na politički dnevni red stavio
06:18
by the UK Prime Minister David Cameron
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premijer Ujedinjenog Kraljevstva,
Dejvid Kameron,
Dejvid Kameron,
06:20
at a big G8 Summit that was held
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
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na velikom samitu G8 koji je održan
u Severnoj Irskoj 2013.
u Severnoj Irskoj 2013.
06:25
And since then, the European Union
is going to be creating
is going to be creating
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A od tada, Evropska Unija će da osniva
06:30
central registers at a national level
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centralne registre na nacionalnom nivou
06:32
of who really owns and controls
companies across Europe.
companies across Europe.
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o tome ko zaista poseduje i upravlja
firmama širom Evrope.
firmama širom Evrope.
06:35
One of the things that is sad is that,
actually, the US is lagging behind.
actually, the US is lagging behind.
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Jedna od tužnih stvari
je da zapravo SAD zaostaju.
je da zapravo SAD zaostaju.
06:40
There's bipartisan legislation
that had been introduced
that had been introduced
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Postoji dvostranački zakon
koji je predstavljen
koji je predstavljen
06:43
in the House and the Senate,
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u Predstavničkom domu i u Senatu,
06:45
but it isn't making as much progress
as we'd like to see.
as we'd like to see.
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ali ne ostvaruje napredak
kakav bismo želeli da vidimo.
kakav bismo želeli da vidimo.
06:48
So we'd really want to see
the Panama leaks,
the Panama leaks,
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Pa bismo zaista voleli da vidimo
kako se curenje iz Paname,
kako se curenje iz Paname,
06:51
this huge peek into the offshore world,
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ovo veliko virenje u svet ofšora,
06:55
be used as a way of opening up
in the US and around the world.
in the US and around the world.
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koristi kao način za pokretanje diskusije
u SAD-u i širom sveta.
u SAD-u i širom sveta.
07:00
For us at Global Witness,
this is a moment for change.
this is a moment for change.
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Za nas u Global Vitnesu,
ovo je prekretnički momenat.
ovo je prekretnički momenat.
07:05
We need ordinary people to get angry
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Potrebno nam je da se obični ljudi naljute
07:09
at the way in which people
can hide their identity
can hide their identity
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na način na koji ljudi
mogu da sakriju svoje identitete
mogu da sakriju svoje identitete
07:12
behind secret companies.
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iza tajnih firmi.
07:14
We need business leaders
to stand up and say,
to stand up and say,
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Potrebno nam je da se poslovne vođe
usprotive i kažu:
usprotive i kažu:
07:18
"Secrecy like this is not
good for business."
good for business."
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"Ovakva poverljivost
nije dobra za poslovanje."
nije dobra za poslovanje."
07:21
We need political leaders
to recognize the problem,
to recognize the problem,
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Potrebno nam je da političke vođe
prepoznaju problem
prepoznaju problem
07:26
and to commit to changing the law
to open up this sort of secrecy.
to open up this sort of secrecy.
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i da se obavežu da će da promene zakon
i da razotkriju ovaj vid poverljivosti.
i da razotkriju ovaj vid poverljivosti.
07:31
Together, we can end the secrecy
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Zajedno možemo da okončamo poverljivost
07:34
that is currently allowing tax evasion,
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koja trenutno omogućuje utaji poreza,
07:38
corruption, money laundering to flourish.
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korupciji, pranju novca da cvetaju.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global WitnessRobert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes.
Why you should listen
Robert Palmer is the Banks and Corruption Campaign Leader for Global Witness, whose founder Charmian Gooch won the TED Prize in 2014. The Nobel-prize nominated organization is dedicated to breaking the links between natural resources, conflict and corruption.
Palmer has led a number of high profile investigations. These include exposing how corrupt Nigerian politicians used British high street banks to move bribe money; uncovering which global banks held $65 billion of Libyan government funds; and organizing an undercover sting to show how corrupt officials can move suspect funds into the U.S. with the help of New York lawyers.
Palmer is an expert in the global anti-money laundering framework and helps to develop practical policy solutions to improve its effectiveness. He helps to lead a global coalition of civil society groups campaigning for an end to the abuse of the financial system by corrupt officials. This has led to new transparency laws in the UK and EU to tackle anonymously owned companies.
Robert Palmer | Speaker | TED.com