Global Witness
Robert Palmer: The Panama Papers exposed a huge global problem. What's next?
Robert Palmer: Panamski dokumenti so razkrili ogromen svetovni problem. Kaj pa zdaj?
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3. aprila 2016 smo bili priča največjemu razkritju podatkov v zgodovini. Panamski dokumenti so izpostavili bogate in močne ljudi, ki skrivajo ogromne vsote denarja v davčnih oazah. A kaj vse to pomeni? Vprašali smo Roberta Palmerja iz organizacije Global Witness.
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global Witness
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Robert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:13
[On April 3, 2016 we saw
the largest data leak in history.]
the largest data leak in history.]
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[3. aprila 2016 smo bili priča največjemu
razkritju podatkov v zgodovini.]
razkritju podatkov v zgodovini.]
00:18
[The Panama Papers exposed
rich and powerful people]
rich and powerful people]
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[Panamski dokumenti so razkrinkali
bogate in močne ljudi,]
bogate in močne ljudi,]
00:20
[hiding vast amounts of money
in offshore accounts.]
in offshore accounts.]
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[ki so v davčnih oazah
skrivali ogromne vsote denarja.]
skrivali ogromne vsote denarja.]
00:23
[What does this mean?]
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[Kaj to pomeni?]
00:27
[We called Robert Palmer
of Global Witness to explain.]
of Global Witness to explain.]
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[Za razlago smo poklicali
Roberta Palmerja iz Global Witness.]
Roberta Palmerja iz Global Witness.]
00:32
This week, there have been
a whole slew and deluge of stories
a whole slew and deluge of stories
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Ta teden so nas preplavile zgodbe,
00:37
coming out from the leak
of 11 million documents
of 11 million documents
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ki izhajajo iz razkritja
11 milijonov dokumentov
11 milijonov dokumentov
00:41
from a Panamanian-based law firm
called Mossack Fonseca.
called Mossack Fonseca.
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odvetniške družbe Mossack Fonseca
s sedežem v Panami.
s sedežem v Panami.
00:45
The release of these papers from Panama
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
lifts the veil on a tiny piece
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Objava teh panamskih dokumentov
odgrinja tančico majhnega dela
odgrinja tančico majhnega dela
00:51
of the secretive offshore world.
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skrivnostnega sveta davčnih oaz.
00:53
We get an insight into how clients
and banks and lawyers
and banks and lawyers
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Pokaže nam, kako stranke,
banke in odvetniki
banke in odvetniki
00:58
go to companies like Mossack Fonseca
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podjetjem, kakršno je Mossack Fonseca,
01:01
and say, "OK, we want
an anonymous company,
an anonymous company,
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naročijo: "Želimo imeti anonimno podjetje,
01:03
can you give us one?"
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nam ga lahko odprete?"
01:04
So you actually get to see the emails,
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Zdaj lahko vidimo elektronska sporočila,
izmenjave sporočil,
izmenjave sporočil,
01:06
you get to see the exchanges of messages,
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01:08
you get to see the mechanics
of how this works,
of how this works,
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vidimo, kako to deluje,
01:11
how this operates.
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kako funkcionira.
01:13
Now, this has already started
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
to have pretty immediate repercussions.
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In to je imelo kar takojšnje posledice.
01:17
The Prime Minister
of Iceland has resigned.
of Iceland has resigned.
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Islandski premier je odstopil.
01:20
We've also had news
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Izvedeli smo tudi,
01:21
that an ally of the brutal
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
Syrian dictator Bashar Al-Assad
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da ima neki zaveznik sirskega
diktatorja Bašarja Al Asada
diktatorja Bašarja Al Asada
01:26
has also got offshore companies.
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podjetja v davčnih oazah.
01:28
There's been allegations
of a $2 billion money trail
of a $2 billion money trail
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Obstajajo navedbe o
dveh milijardah dolarjev,
dveh milijardah dolarjev,
01:34
that leads back to President
Vladimir Putin of Russia
Vladimir Putin of Russia
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povezanih z ruskim predsednikom
Vladimirjem Putinom
Vladimirjem Putinom
01:38
via his close childhood friend,
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preko tesnega prijatelja iz otroštva,
01:40
who happens to be a top cellist.
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ki je tudi priznan čelist.
01:42
And there will be a lot
of rich individuals out there
of rich individuals out there
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In veliko bogatih posameznikov
01:45
and others who will be nervous
about the next set of stories
about the next set of stories
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in drugih ljudi bo živčnih
zaradi naslednjega dela zgodb
zaradi naslednjega dela zgodb
01:49
and the next set of leaked documents.
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in prihodnjih razkritij.
01:52
Now, this sounds like the plot
of a spy thriller
of a spy thriller
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To se sliši kot zgodba za vohunski triler
01:56
or a John Grisham novel.
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ali roman Johna Grishama.
01:58
It seems very distant
from you, me, ordinary people.
from you, me, ordinary people.
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Zdi se daleč od vas, mene,
od navadnih ljudi.
od navadnih ljudi.
02:02
Why should we care about this?
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Zakaj nas to sploh zanima?
02:04
But the truth is that if rich
and powerful individuals
and powerful individuals
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Dejstvo je, da če lahko bogati
in močni posamezniki
in močni posamezniki
02:09
are able to keep their money offshore
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denar hranijo v davčnih oazah
02:11
and not pay the taxes that they should,
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ter se izmikajo davkom,
02:14
it means that there is less money
for vital public services
for vital public services
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to pomeni manj denarja za
ključne javne storitve,
ključne javne storitve,
02:18
like healthcare, education, roads.
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kot so zdravstvo, izobraževanje, ceste.
02:21
And that affects all of us.
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To pa vpliva na vse nas.
02:24
Now, for my organization Global Witness,
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Za mojo organizacijo Global Witness
02:26
this exposé has been phenomenal.
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je bilo to razkritje fenomenalno.
02:30
We have the world's media
and political leaders
and political leaders
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Svetovni mediji in politični voditelji
02:35
talking about how individuals
can use offshore secrecy
can use offshore secrecy
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govorijo o tem, kako lahko ljudje
izkoriščajo tajnost oaz
izkoriščajo tajnost oaz
02:40
to hide and disguise their assets --
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in skrivajo svoje premoženje -
02:42
something we have been talking about
and exposing for a decade.
and exposing for a decade.
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o tem mi govorimo že desetletje.
02:47
Now, I think a lot of people find
this entire world baffling and confusing,
this entire world baffling and confusing,
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Veliko ljudem se zdi ta svet
begajoč in zapleten,
begajoč in zapleten,
02:52
and hard to understand how
this sort of offshore world works.
this sort of offshore world works.
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težko je razumeti,
kako deluje svet davčnih oaz.
kako deluje svet davčnih oaz.
02:56
I like to think of it a bit
like a Russian doll.
like a Russian doll.
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Jaz na to gledam kot na rusko babuško.
02:59
So you can have one company
stacked inside another company,
stacked inside another company,
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Obstaja podjetje znotraj drugega podjetja,
03:02
stacked inside another company,
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ki je znotraj še enega podjetja,
03:05
making it almost impossible
to really understand
to really understand
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zato je skoraj nemogoče razumeti,
03:09
who is behind these structures.
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kdo stoji za temi strukturami.
03:11
It can be very difficult
for law enforcement
for law enforcement
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Za pravosodje ali za davkarijo,
03:14
or tax authorities,
journalists, civil society
journalists, civil society
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za novinarje in civilno družbo je težko
03:17
to really understand what's going on.
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razumeti, kaj se dogaja.
03:20
I also think it's interesting
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Zanimivo se mi tudi zdi,
03:21
that there's been less coverage
of this issue in the United States.
of this issue in the United States.
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da ZDA te zgodbe niso veliko pokrivale.
03:25
And that's perhaps because
some prominent US people
some prominent US people
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Morda zato, ker v dokumentih ni bilo
03:28
just haven't figured
in this exposé, in this scandal.
in this exposé, in this scandal.
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nekaterih pomembnih Američanov.
03:33
Now, that's not because
there are no rich Americans
there are no rich Americans
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Pa ne zato, ker bogati Američani
03:37
who are stashing their assets offshore.
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ne bi skrivali premoženja v oazah.
03:40
It's just because of the way
in which offshore works,
in which offshore works,
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Zaradi načina,
na katerega delujejo davčne oaze,
na katerega delujejo davčne oaze,
03:43
Mossack Fonseca has fewer
American clients.
American clients.
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ima Mossack Fonseca pač
manj ameriških strank.
manj ameriških strank.
03:47
I think if we saw leaks
from the Cayman Islands
from the Cayman Islands
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Mislim da če bi šlo za razkritja
s Kajmanskih otokov
s Kajmanskih otokov
03:50
or even from Delaware
or Wyoming or Nevada,
or Wyoming or Nevada,
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ali držav Delaware, Wyoming ali Nevada,
03:54
you would see many more cases
and examples linking back to Americans.
and examples linking back to Americans.
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bi bilo veliko več primerov
povezanih z Američani.
povezanih z Američani.
04:00
In fact, in a number of US states
you need less information,
you need less information,
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Pravzaprav v veliko zveznih držav ZDA
potrebujete manj podatkov,
potrebujete manj podatkov,
04:06
you need to provide less
information to get a company
information to get a company
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da bi odprli podjetje,
04:10
than you do to get a library card.
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kot jih potrebujete
za včlanitev v knjižnico.
za včlanitev v knjižnico.
04:13
That sort of secrecy in America
has allowed employees of school districts
has allowed employees of school districts
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Takšna tajnost v ZDA
omogoča uslužbencem šol,
omogoča uslužbencem šol,
04:19
to rip off schoolchildren.
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da goljufajo učence.
04:20
It has allowed scammers
to rip off vulnerable investors.
to rip off vulnerable investors.
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Goljufi lahko prevarajo
ranljive vlagatelje.
ranljive vlagatelje.
04:26
This is the sort of behavior
that affects all of us.
that affects all of us.
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Tako obnašanje vpliva na vse nas.
04:30
Now, at Global Witness,
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Pri Global Witness
04:32
we wanted to see what this
actually looked like in practice.
actually looked like in practice.
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smo hoteli pogledati,
kako to izgleda v praksi.
kako to izgleda v praksi.
04:35
How does this actually work?
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Kako pravzaprav deluje?
04:37
So what we did
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Tole smo storili:
04:38
is we sent in an undercover investigator
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
to 13 Manhattan law firms.
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skrivnega preiskovalca smo poslali
v trinajst odvetniških družb na Manhattnu.
v trinajst odvetniških družb na Manhattnu.
04:45
Our investigator posed
as an African minister
as an African minister
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Izdajal se je za ministra iz Afrike,
04:49
who wanted to move suspect funds
into the United States
into the United States
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ki je sumljiv denar hotel prenesti v ZDA
04:53
to buy a house, a yacht, a jet.
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in kupiti hišo, jahto, letalo.
04:57
Now, what was truly shocking
was that all but one of those lawyers
was that all but one of those lawyers
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Šokiralo nas je,
da so vsi razen enega odvetnika
da so vsi razen enega odvetnika
05:02
provided our investigator with suggestions
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preiskovalcu dali predloge,
05:06
on how to move those suspect funds.
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kako prenesti sumljiv denar.
05:08
These were all preliminary meetings,
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To so bila začetna srečanja
05:10
and none of the lawyers
took us on as a client
took us on as a client
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in noben odvetnik nas ni
vzel za svojo stranko
vzel za svojo stranko
05:13
and of course no money moved hands,
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in seveda ni bilo nobene
finančne transakcije,
finančne transakcije,
05:15
but it really shows the problem
with the system.
with the system.
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a stvar je pokazala na težavo v sistemu.
05:18
It's also important
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Pomembno je tudi,
05:20
to not just think about this
as individual cases.
as individual cases.
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da na to ne gledamo le kot na
posamezne primere.
posamezne primere.
05:24
This is not just about
an individual lawyer
an individual lawyer
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Ne gre le za posameznega odvetnika,
05:26
who's spoken to our undercover
investigator and provided suggestions.
investigator and provided suggestions.
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ki je govoril s preiskovalcem
in mu dal predloge.
in mu dal predloge.
05:30
It's not just about
a particular senior politician
a particular senior politician
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Ne gre le za pomembnega politika,
05:33
who's been caught up in a scandal.
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ki se je ujel v škandal.
05:34
This is about how a system works,
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Gre za to, kako sistem deluje,
05:37
that entrenches corruption,
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
tax evasion, poverty and instability.
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kako vzdržuje korupcijo,
izogibanje davkom, revščino, nestabilnost.
izogibanje davkom, revščino, nestabilnost.
05:43
And in order to tackle this,
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Da bi se spopadli s tem,
05:45
we need to change the game.
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moramo spremeniti igro.
05:47
We need to change the rules of the game
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Spremeniti moramo pravila igre,
05:50
to make this sort of behavior harder.
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da bo tako obnašanje težje.
05:52
This may seem like doom and gloom,
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Morda se sliši brezupno,
05:54
like there's nothing we can do about it,
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kot da ne moremo storiti nič,
05:56
like nothing has ever changed,
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kot da se nič ne spremeni,
05:58
like there will always be rich
and powerful individuals.
and powerful individuals.
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kot da bodo vedno obstajali bogati
in močni posamezniki.
in močni posamezniki.
06:01
But as a natural optimist,
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Kot optimist po naravi
06:04
I do see that we are starting
to get some change.
to get some change.
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pa vidim, da se nekaj spreminja.
06:07
Over the last couple of years,
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Zadnjih nekaj let
06:09
we've seen a real push towards
greater transparency
greater transparency
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se večajo zahteve po transparentnosti
06:13
when it comes to company ownership.
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pri lastništvu podjetij.
06:15
This issue was put on the political agenda
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Zadevo je na politični dnevni red
06:18
by the UK Prime Minister David Cameron
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postavil David Cameron,
premier Velike Britanije,
premier Velike Britanije,
06:20
at a big G8 Summit that was held
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
in Northern Ireland in 2013.
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na vrhu G8 leta 2013 na Severnem Irskem.
06:25
And since then, the European Union
is going to be creating
is going to be creating
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Odtlej Evropska unija ustanavlja
06:30
central registers at a national level
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centralne registre na ravni držav.
06:32
of who really owns and controls
companies across Europe.
companies across Europe.
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Tam piše, kdo je v resnici lastnik
in nadzornik podjetij po Evropi.
in nadzornik podjetij po Evropi.
06:35
One of the things that is sad is that,
actually, the US is lagging behind.
actually, the US is lagging behind.
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Žalostno je, da ZDA v tem zaostajajo.
06:40
There's bipartisan legislation
that had been introduced
that had been introduced
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Dvostrankarska zakonodaja je bila vložena
06:43
in the House and the Senate,
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v kongres in senat,
06:45
but it isn't making as much progress
as we'd like to see.
as we'd like to see.
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a ne napreduje, kot bi morala.
06:48
So we'd really want to see
the Panama leaks,
the Panama leaks,
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Res bi radi, da bi panamski dokumenti,
06:51
this huge peek into the offshore world,
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ta vpogled v svet davčnih oaz,
06:55
be used as a way of opening up
in the US and around the world.
in the US and around the world.
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pomagali k večji odprtosti
ZDA in ostalega sveta.
ZDA in ostalega sveta.
07:00
For us at Global Witness,
this is a moment for change.
this is a moment for change.
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Za Global Witness
je to trenutek spremembe.
je to trenutek spremembe.
07:05
We need ordinary people to get angry
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Navadni ljudje se morajo razjeziti
07:09
at the way in which people
can hide their identity
can hide their identity
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na to, kako drugi lahko
skrivajo svojo identiteto
skrivajo svojo identiteto
07:12
behind secret companies.
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za tajnimi podjetji.
07:14
We need business leaders
to stand up and say,
to stand up and say,
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Poslovneži se morajo oglasiti
ter povedati,
ter povedati,
07:18
"Secrecy like this is not
good for business."
good for business."
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da taka tajnost ni dobra za posel.
07:21
We need political leaders
to recognize the problem,
to recognize the problem,
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Politični voditelji
morajo prepoznati problem
morajo prepoznati problem
07:26
and to commit to changing the law
to open up this sort of secrecy.
to open up this sort of secrecy.
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in se zavezati k spremembam zakonov,
da bi razkrili tovrstno tajnost.
da bi razkrili tovrstno tajnost.
07:31
Together, we can end the secrecy
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Skupaj lahko končamo to tajnost,
07:34
that is currently allowing tax evasion,
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ki omogoča izogibanje davkom,
07:38
corruption, money laundering to flourish.
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korupcijo, pranje denarja.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Palmer - Campaign leader, Global WitnessRobert Palmer investigates how the financial system facilitates corruption and other crimes.
Why you should listen
Robert Palmer is the Banks and Corruption Campaign Leader for Global Witness, whose founder Charmian Gooch won the TED Prize in 2014. The Nobel-prize nominated organization is dedicated to breaking the links between natural resources, conflict and corruption.
Palmer has led a number of high profile investigations. These include exposing how corrupt Nigerian politicians used British high street banks to move bribe money; uncovering which global banks held $65 billion of Libyan government funds; and organizing an undercover sting to show how corrupt officials can move suspect funds into the U.S. with the help of New York lawyers.
Palmer is an expert in the global anti-money laundering framework and helps to develop practical policy solutions to improve its effectiveness. He helps to lead a global coalition of civil society groups campaigning for an end to the abuse of the financial system by corrupt officials. This has led to new transparency laws in the UK and EU to tackle anonymously owned companies.
Robert Palmer | Speaker | TED.com