TED2009
Jim Fallon: Exploring the mind of a killer
Džim Felon : Istraživanje uma ubice
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Psihopatske ubice su osnova za neke TV emisije koje morate da gledate, ali šta je ono što ih obeležava? Neuronaučnik Džim Felon priča o snimcima mozga i genetičkoj analizi koji mogu otkriti trule instalacije u prirodi ( i odgajanju ) ubica. U obrtu, previše čudnom za fikciju, on deli fascinirajuću porodičnu istoriju koja čini njegov posao jezivo ličnim.
Jim Fallon - Neurobiologist
Sloan Scholar, Fulbright Fellow, Professor Emeritus of Neuroscience, Jim Fallon looks at the way nature and nurture intermingle to wire up the human brain. Full bio
Sloan Scholar, Fulbright Fellow, Professor Emeritus of Neuroscience, Jim Fallon looks at the way nature and nurture intermingle to wire up the human brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:18
I'm a neuroscientist, a professor at the University of California.
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Ja sam neuronaučnik, profesor na univerzitetu u Kaliforniji.
00:21
And over the past 35 years,
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I proteklih 35 godina,
00:24
I've studied behavior
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proučavao sam ponašanje
00:26
on the basis of everything from genes
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na bazi svega od gena
00:29
through neurotransmitters, dopamine, things like that,
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preko neurotransmitera, dopamina, takvih stvari,
00:31
all the way through circuit analysis.
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sve do analize kola.
00:33
So that's what I normally do.
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Dakle, to je ono što normalno radim.
00:35
But then, for some reason,
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Ali onda sam, iz nekog razloga,
00:37
I got into something else, just recently.
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ušao u nešto drugo, baš skoro.
00:39
And it all grew out of one of my colleagues asking me
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I sve je počelo od toga kada me je jedan kolega pitao
00:42
to analyze a bunch of brains
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da analiziram gomilu mozgova
00:44
of psychopathic killers.
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psihopatskih ubica.
00:46
And so this would be the typical talk I would give.
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I tako bi ovo bio tipičan govor koji bih dao.
00:49
And the question is, "How do you end up with a psychopathic killer?"
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Pitanje je: "Kako završite sa psihopatskim ubicom?"
00:52
What I mean by psychopathic killer
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Šta mislim pod psihopatskim ubicom
00:54
are these people, these types of people.
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su ovi ljudi, ovi tipovi ljudi.
00:56
And so some of the brains that I've studied
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Neki od mozgova koje sam proučavao
00:58
are people you know about.
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su ljudi koje znate.
01:00
When I get the brains I don't know what I'm looking at.
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Kada dobijem mozgove ja ne znam u šta gledam.
01:02
It's blind experiments. They also gave me normal people and everything.
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Ovo su bili slepi eksperimenti. Takođe su mi dali normalne ljude i sve.
01:04
So I've looked at about 70 of these.
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Dakle, pogledao sam oko 70 ovih.
01:06
And what came up was a number of pieces of data.
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I došao do nekoliko podataka.
01:09
So we look at these sorts of things theoretically,
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Dakle, gledamo na ovakve stvari teorijski,
01:12
on the basis of genetics,
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na bazi genetike
01:14
and brain damage, and interaction with environment,
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i oštećenja mozga i interakcije sa sredinom
01:17
and exactly how that machine works.
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i kako tačno ta mašina funkcioniše.
01:19
So we're interested in exactly where in the brain,
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Dakle, zanima nas tačno gde u mozgu
01:21
and what's the most important part of the brain.
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i koji je najznačajniji deo mozga.
01:23
So we've been looking at this:
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Dakle, gledali smo u ovo.
01:26
the interaction of genes,
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U interakciju gena,
01:28
what's called epigenetic effects,
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koja se naziva epigenetski efekti,
01:30
brain damage, and environment,
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oštećenje mozga i sredinu,
01:32
and how these are tied together.
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i kako su ove stvari povezane.
01:34
And how you end up with a psychopath, and a killer,
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Kako na kraju ispadnete psihopata i ubica
01:36
depends on exactly when the damage occurs.
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zavisi od toga kada tačno dođe do oštećenja.
01:39
It's really a very precisely timed thing.
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To je veoma, vremenski precizna stvar.
01:42
You get different kinds of psychopaths.
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Postoje različiti tipovi psihopata.
01:44
So we're going along with this. And here's, just to give you the pattern.
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Pratimo ovo. A evo ovde, čisto da biste uočili obrazac.
01:47
The pattern is that those people, every one of them I looked at,
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Obrazac je da ovi ljudi, svaki od njih koje sam pogledao,
01:50
who was a murderer, and was a serial killer,
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koji je bio ubica i koji je bio serijski ubica,
01:53
had damage to their orbital cortex,
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imao je oštećenje orbitalnog korteksa.
01:55
which is right above the eyes, the orbits,
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Koji se nalazi tačno iznad očiju,
01:57
and also the interior part of the temporal lobe.
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i takođe unutrašnjeg dela temporalnog režnja.
01:59
So there is the pattern that every one of them had,
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Dakle, to je obrazac koji je imao svaki od njih,
02:01
but they all were a little different too.
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ali su takođe bili malo različiti.
02:03
They had other sorts of brain damage.
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Imali su i druge vrste oštećenja mozga.
02:05
A key thing is that
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Ključna stvar je efekat
02:07
the major violence genes,
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glavnih nasilnih gena,
02:10
it's called the MAO-A gene.
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kao što je MAO-A gen.
02:13
And there is a variant of this gene that is in the normal population.
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Postoji varijanta ovog gena u normalnoj populaciji.
02:17
Some of you have this. And it's sex-linked.
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Neki od vas ga imaju. I povezan je sa polom.
02:20
It's on the X chromosome. And so in this way
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Nalazi se na X hromozomu. Tako da ga
02:22
you can only get it from your mother.
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možete dobiti samo preko majke.
02:25
And in fact this is probably why mostly men, boys,
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Zbog ovoga su, verovatno, više muškarci
02:29
are psychopathic killers,
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psihopatske ubice
02:31
or are very aggressive.
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ili veoma agresivni.
02:33
Because a daughter can get one X from the father,
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Zato što ćerka može da dobije jedan X hromozom od oca,
02:36
one X from the mother, it's kind of diluted out.
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jedan X hromozom od majke, pa je uticaj razređeniji.
02:38
But for a son, he can only get
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Ali za sina, on može da dobije
02:40
the X chromosome from his mother.
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X hromozom od majke.
02:42
So this is how it's passed from mother to son.
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Dakle, ovako se prenosi sa majke na sina.
02:45
And it has to do with too much brain serotonin during development,
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I ima veze sa previše serotonina u toku razvoja.
02:49
which is kind of interesting because serotonin
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Što je interesantno zato što serotonin
02:51
is supposed to make you calm and relaxed.
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treba da vas učini smirenim i opuštenim.
02:54
But if you have this gene, in utero
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Ali ako imate ovaj gen, u materici
02:57
your brain is bathed in this,
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vaš mozak je okupan u njemu.
02:59
so your whole brain becomes insensitive to serotonin,
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Tako da ceo vaš mozak postaje neosetljiv na serotonin.
03:01
so it doesn't work later on in life.
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I zato nema uticaj kasnije u životu.
03:04
And I'd given this one talk in Israel,
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Držao sam jedan govor u Izraelu
03:07
just this past year.
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prošle godine.
03:09
And it does have some consequences.
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I imao je neke posledice.
03:11
Theoretically what this means
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U teorijskom smislu,
03:13
is that in order to express this gene,
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da bi došlo do ekspresije ovog gena,
03:16
in a violent way,
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na nasilni način,
03:18
very early on, before puberty,
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morali biste vrlo rano, pre puberteta,
03:20
you have to be involved in something that is really traumatic --
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da budete uključeni u nešto zaista traumatično,
03:23
not a little stress, not being spanked or something,
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ne malo stresa, ne biti išamaran ili nešto slično.
03:25
but really seeing violence,
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Nego stvarno prisustvovati nasilju
03:27
or being involved in it, in 3D.
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ili biti uključeni u njemu, u 3D.
03:29
Right? That's how the mirror neuron system works.
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OK? Na taj način funkcioniše nervni sistem.
03:31
And so, if you have that gene,
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I ukoliko imate taj gen,
03:34
and you see a lot of violence
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i videli ste mnogo nasilja
03:37
in a certain situation,
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u određenim situacijama,
03:39
this is the recipe for disaster, absolute disaster.
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to vam je recept za katastrofu, apsolutnu katastrofu.
03:42
And what I think might happen in these areas of the world,
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I ono što mislim da bi se moglo dogoditi u ovim delovima sveta
03:45
where we have constant violence,
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u kojima je prisutno konstantno nasilje,
03:48
you end up having generations of kids
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jeste da završite za generacijama dece
03:51
that are seeing all this violence.
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koja gledaju to nasilje.
03:53
And if I was a young girl, somewhere in a violent area,
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I, da sam ja devojčica, negde okružena nasiljem,
03:56
you know, a 14 year old, and I want to find a mate,
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znate, 14-godišnjakinja, i želim da nađem momka,
03:58
I'd find some tough guy, right, to protect me.
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tražila bih nekog opasnog tipa, da me zaštiti.
04:01
Well what the problem is this tends to concentrate these genes.
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I ono što predstavlja problem je da ovo teži koncentraciji ovih gena.
04:05
And now the boys and the girls get them.
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I sada ih imaju i dečaci i devojčice.
04:07
So I think after several generations,
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Dakle nakon nekoliko generacija -
04:09
and here is the idea, we really have a tinderbox.
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i evo je ideja- imamo "atomsku bombu".
04:12
So that was the idea.
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Dakle to je ideja.
04:14
But then my mother said to me, "I hear you've been going around talking
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Ali onda mi je majka rekla "Čujem da pričaš naokolo
04:16
about psychopathic killers.
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o psihopatskih ubicama.
04:19
And you're talking as if you come from a normal family."
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I pričaš o tome kao da ti dolaziš iz normalne porodice."
04:22
I said, "What the hell are you talking about?"
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Ja sam odgovorio, " O čemu ti to pričaš?"
04:24
She then told me about our own family tree.
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Onda mi je ispričala o našem porodičnom stablu.
04:27
Now she blamed this on my father's side, of course.
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Okrivila je očevu stranu, naravno.
04:29
This was one of these cases, because she has no violence in her background,
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Ovo je bila jedna onih situacija, jer ona nije imala nasilnu prošlost.
04:33
but my father did.
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Ali moj otac jeste.
04:35
Well she said, "There is good news and bad news.
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Rekla je "Imam dobre i loše vesti.
04:37
One of your cousins is Ezra Cornell, founder of Cornell university.
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Jedna od tvojih rođaka je Ezra Kornel, osnivač Kornel univerziteta.
04:40
But the bad news is that your cousin is also Lizzie Borden.
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Ali loše vesti su te da je tvoja rođaka i Lizi Borden."
04:43
Now I said, "Okay, so what? We have Lizzie."
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Ja sam odgovorio "Ok, pa šta? Imamo Lizi."
04:50
She goes, "No it gets worse, read this book."
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Ona je nastavila " Ne, postaje gore, pročitaj ovu knjigu."
04:52
And here is this "Killed Strangely," and it's this historical book.
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I evo je, "Čudno ubijena" i ona je istorijska knjiga.
04:54
And the first murder
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I prvo ubistvo
04:56
of a mother by a son
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majke od strane sina,
04:58
was my great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather.
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bilo je od mog pra-pra-pra-pra-pra-pradede.
05:01
Okay, so that's the first case of matricide.
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Ok, dakle to je bio prvi slučaj ubistva majke.
05:04
And that book is very interesting. Because it's about witch trials,
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I knjiga je veoma zanimljiva. Zato što je o suđenjima vešticama
05:07
and how people thought back then.
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i kako su ljudi tada razmišljali.
05:09
But it doesn't stop there.
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Ali tu nije kraj.
05:11
There were seven more men, on my father's side,
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Još sedmorica muškaraca, sa očeve strane,
05:14
starting then, Cornells, that were all murderers.
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počevši tad, Kornelovi, su bili ubice.
05:18
Okay, now this gives one a little pause.
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Ok, ovo zaslužuje malu pauzu.
05:21
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
05:23
Because my father himself,
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Zato što su moj otac
05:25
and my three uncles, in World War II,
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i trojica mojih stričeva, u Drugom svetskom ratu,
05:27
were all conscientious objectors, all pussycats.
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bili protivnici rata, mamine maze.
05:30
But every once in a while, like Lizzie Borden, like three times a century,
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Ali svako malo, nađe se slučaj kao Lizi Borden, npr. tri puta u veku,
05:32
and we're kind of due.
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i onda smo "kvit".
05:34
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
05:37
So the moral of the story is:
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Dakle, pouka ove priče je:
05:39
people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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ljudi u staklenim kućama ne bi trebalo da bacaju kamenje.
05:41
But more likely is this.
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Ali više je onih koji to rade.
05:44
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
05:48
And we had to take action. Now our kids found out about it.
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I mi moramo da preuzmemo akciju. Jer su naša deca saznala za ovo
05:51
And they all seemed to be OK.
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i čini se da im je to u redu.
05:53
But our grandkids are going to be kind of concerned here.
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Ali će naši unuci biti zabrinuti.
05:56
So what we've done is I've started to do PET scans
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Zato sam počeo da radim PET snimke
05:59
of everybody in the family.
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svih u porodici.
06:01
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
06:02
We started to do PET scans, EEGs and genetic analysis
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Počeli smo da radimo PET skeniranja, EEG i genetičke analize
06:05
to see where the bad news is.
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da vidimo gde leže loše vesti.
06:07
Now the only person -- it turns out
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Sad, jedna osoba -- ustvari
06:09
one son and one daughter, siblings,
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jedan sin i jedna ćerka, rođeni brat i sestra
06:12
didn't get along and their patterns are exactly the same.
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se nisu slagali. A njihovi obrazci su potpuno isti.
06:14
They have the same brain, and the same EEG.
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Imaju isti mozak, isti EEG.
06:17
And now they are close as can be.
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I sada su najbliži koiko mogu biti.
06:20
But there's gonna be bad news somewhere.
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Ali, negde će biti loših vesti.
06:22
And we don't know where it's going to pop up.
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I mi ne znamo gde će se one pojaviti.
06:24
So that's my talk.
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Dakle, ovo je moj govor.
06:26
(Laughter)
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(Smeh)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jim Fallon - NeurobiologistSloan Scholar, Fulbright Fellow, Professor Emeritus of Neuroscience, Jim Fallon looks at the way nature and nurture intermingle to wire up the human brain.
Why you should listen
Jim Fallon has taught neuroscience and psychiatry grand rounds at the University of California Irvine for thirty-five years. Through research he explores the way genetic and perinatal environmental factors affect the way the brain gets built -- and then how an individual's experience further shapes his or her development. He lectures and writes on creativity, consciousness and culture, and has made key contributions to our understanding of adult stems and stroke, schizophrenia, Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.
Only lately has Fallon turned his research toward the subject of psychopaths -- particularly those who kill. With PET scans and EEGs, he's beginning to uncover the deep, underlying traits that make people violent and murderous. In his talk at TEDDIY at TED@PalmSprings, he shared a surprise discovery about his own family that prompted him to bring his work home.
Watch his followup talk from The Moth at the 2011 World Science Festival >>
Jim Fallon | Speaker | TED.com