TEDGlobal 2011
Karen Tse: How to stop torture
谢凯伦：如何停止刑讯逼供
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遭受刑讯逼供的不仅仅是是政治犯--多数的逼供行为发生在一般案件中，甚至在所谓”执行法治”的国家。社会活动家谢凯伦告诉我们，我们有能力并且应该站出来停止业已程序化的逼供行为。
Karen Tse - Anti-torture activist
In too many countries, it's still normal to torture prisoners for confessions and information. Karen Tse works to end that. Full bio
In too many countries, it's still normal to torture prisoners for confessions and information. Karen Tse works to end that. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:16
In 1994, I walked into a prison in Cambodia,
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1994年我走进柬埔寨的一所监狱
00:20
and I met a 12-year-old boy
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遇见了一个12岁的男孩
00:23
who had been tortured
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他被刑讯逼供
00:25
and was denied access to counsel.
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并且禁止接触律师
00:27
And as I looked into his eyes, I realized
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当我看着他的眼睛时，我意识到
00:29
that for the hundreds of letters I had written
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尽管我曾经写过几百封
00:31
for political prisoners, that I would never have
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给政治犯争取权利的信，我恐怕不会
00:34
written a letter for him,
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给他也写一封
00:36
because he was not a 12-year-old boy who
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因为这个12岁的孩子不是一个
00:38
had done something important for anybody.
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为别人做出过重要贡献的人
00:40
He was not a political prisoner.
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他不是政治犯
00:42
He was a 12-year-old boy who had
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他12岁成为囚徒
00:44
stolen a bicycle.
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只因为偷了一辆自行车
00:46
What I also realized at that point was that
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当时我还意识到
00:48
it was not only Cambodia, but
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不仅仅在柬埔寨
00:50
of the 113
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而且在113个
00:52
developing countries that torture,
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存在刑讯逼供的发展中国家里
00:54
93 of these countries have all passed laws
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已经有93个国家通过了法律
00:57
that say you have a right to a lawyer
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宣布其公民有权聘请律师
00:59
and you have a right not to be tortured.
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而且有权不受逼供。
01:02
And what I recognized was that there was an
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我认为我们有一个
01:04
incredible window of opportunity for us
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极好的机会
01:06
as a world community to come together
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将整个国际社会联合起来
01:09
and end torture as an investigative tool.
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制止刑讯逼供
01:12
We often think of torture as being
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我们时常把逼供看做
01:14
political torture or reserved for
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政治行为或者说
01:16
just the worst, but, in fact,
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专门用于应对最坏的情况，可是其实
01:19
95 percent of torture today
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当今95%的逼供
01:21
is not for political prisoners.
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并不针对政治犯
01:23
It is for people who are
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而是针对生活在
01:25
in broken-down legal systems,
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漏洞百出的法律体系下的人们
01:27
and unfortunately because torture is
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不幸的是刑讯逼供
01:29
the cheapest form of investigation --
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是成本最低的审讯方法--
01:31
it's cheaper than having a legal system,
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比建立一个完善的法制的成本要低得多
01:33
cheaper than having a lawyer
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也比请律师
01:35
and early access to counsel --
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和寻求前期法律咨询要便宜得多
01:37
it is what happens most of the time.
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大多数时候都是这样
01:39
I believe today that it is possible for us
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我相信今天
01:41
as a world community, if we make a decision,
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如果我们团结起整个国际社会，共同作出一个决定
01:44
to come together and end torture
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来制止刑讯逼供
01:46
as an investigative tool in our lifetime,
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我们有可能在有生之年达成目标
01:49
but it will require three things.
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但是有三个前提
01:51
First is the training, empowerment,
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首先是给予
01:54
and connection of defenders worldwide.
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全世界的法律援助者足够的训练、支持与帮助
01:57
The second is insuring that there is
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第二是确保
02:00
systematic early access to counsel.
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程序化的前期法律咨询能够落实
02:03
And the third is commitment.
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其三就是承诺和责任
02:06
So in the year 2000,
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在2000年
02:08
I began to wonder,
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我开始思考
02:11
what if we came together?
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如果我们真的联合起来会怎样？
02:14
Could we do something
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我们能否做点什么
02:16
for these 93 countries?
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来帮帮这93个国家？
02:18
And I founded International Bridges to Justice
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于是我成立了一个叫“国际正义桥”的机构
02:20
which has a specific mission of
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这个机构有一个特殊的任务
02:22
ending torture as an investigative tool
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那就是阻止刑讯逼供
02:25
and implementing due process rights
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维护正当的法律权益
02:27
in the 93 countries by placing trained lawyers
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我们在上述93个国家组织了一批训练有素的律师
02:30
at an early stage in police stations
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在案件审理早期就前往警察局
02:32
and in courtrooms.
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和法院
02:34
My first experiences, though, did come
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而我最初的经验
02:36
from Cambodia, and at the time I remember
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都来自柬埔寨，我记得
02:39
first coming to Cambodia and there were,
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第一次去那里时，是1994年
02:41
in 1994, still less than
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整个国家
02:43
10 attorneys in the country because
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只有不到10个律师，因为
02:45
the Khmer Rouge had killed them all.
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红色高棉运动几乎把他们杀光了
02:47
And even 20 years later, there was only
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哪怕是20年之后
02:49
10 lawyers in the country, so consequently
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全国也只有10个律师，因此
02:51
you'd walk into a prison and
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当你走进一所监狱
02:53
not only would you meet 12-year-old boys,
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你不仅会遇到12岁的小孩
02:55
you'd meet women and you'd say,
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还会遇到女人，然后你问
02:57
"Why are you here?" Women would say,
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“你为什么被关进来？”女人们会说
02:59
"Well I've been here for 10 years because
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“我被关了10年了，就因为
03:01
my husband committed a crime, but they can't find him."
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我丈夫犯了罪，警察抓不到他。”
03:03
So it's just a place where there was no rule of law.
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所以柬埔寨根本没有法制可言
03:06
The first group of defenders came together
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第一个法律援助团队组建起来后，
03:08
and I still remember, as I was training, I said,
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我记得在对他们进行训练的时候，我说
03:10
"Okay, what do you do for an investigation?"
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“好了，告诉我审讯的时候你们怎么做？”
03:12
And there was silence in the class, and finally
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全班都静悄悄的，最终
03:14
one woman stood up, [inaudible name],
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一个女人站起来
03:16
and she said "Khrew," which means "teacher."
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她说“克鲁”，就是柬埔寨语“老师”的意思
03:19
She said, "I have defended more than
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她说：“我曾经
03:22
a hundred people, and I've never had to do
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帮一百多人辩护，但我从来都不用
03:25
any investigation,
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对他们审讯
03:27
because they all come with confessions."
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因为他们来了之后就会主动坦白。“
03:29
And we talked about, as a class, the fact that
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然后我们全班一起讨论了一些事实：
03:32
number one, the confessions
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第一：他们主动坦白的信息
03:34
might not be reliable, but number two,
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不一定可靠，但是第二：
03:36
we did not want to encourage the police
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我们不想鼓励警方
03:38
to keep doing this, especially
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继续进行刑讯逼供，尤其是
03:40
as it was now against the law.
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现在这是违反法律的
03:42
And it took a lot of courage for these
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这些律师们需要很多勇气
03:44
defenders to decide that they would
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才决定他们要
03:46
begin to stand up and support each other
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站出来互相协助
03:48
in implementing these laws.
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确保法律不是空文
03:51
And I still remember the first cases where
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我还记得最早的那些案件中
03:53
they came, all 25 together, she would
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律师们一共25个人，那个女律师
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stand up, and they were in the back, and
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站起来，其他人在她身后
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they would support her, and the judges kept
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支持她，而法官
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saying, "No, no, no, no, we're going to do things
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不断地说：”不不不不，我们要
04:01
the exact same way we've been doing them."
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完全按照以前做事的程序做。“
04:03
But one day the perfect case came, and it
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但是有一天出现了个完美的案件
04:05
was a woman who was a vegetable seller,
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被告是一个卖菜的女人
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she was sitting outside of a house.
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她坐在一间房子外面
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She said she actually saw the person
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她说自己的确看到
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run out who she thinks stole
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一个人跑出来，她认为这个人偷了
04:14
whatever the jewelry was, but the police
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不知是个什么珠宝，但警察
04:16
came, they got her, there was nothing on her.
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来了，抓了她，她身上什么都没有
04:18
She was pregnant at the time. She had
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当时还怀孕了。她身上
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cigarette burns on her. She'd miscarried.
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有烟头烫伤的痕迹。最终不幸流产了
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And when they brought her case
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当她的案子
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to the judge, for the first time he stood up
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刚被递交给法官时，法官就站起来说
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and he said, "Yes, there's no evidence
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“的确，
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except for your torture confession
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除了逼供获得的供词外没有其他证据
04:30
and you will be released."
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你将被释放。”
04:32
And the defenders began to take cases
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于是我们的律师开始受理这些案件
04:34
over and over again and
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反反复复地做
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you will see, they have step by step began
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而且他们已经开始一步步地
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to change the course of history in Cambodia.
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改变柬埔寨的历史了。
04:42
But Cambodia is not alone.
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但并不只是柬埔寨是这样的
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I used to think, well is it Cambodia?
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我曾经想，是不是只有柬埔寨虐囚呢？
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Or is it other countries?
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还是其他国家也这样？
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But it is in so many countries.
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真的还有很多国家。
04:51
In Burundi I walked into a prison and it wasn't
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在布隆迪我又走进一间监狱，这次
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a 12-year-old boy, it was an 8-year-old boy
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遇见的不是个12岁的男孩，而是一个8岁的男孩
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for stealing a mobile phone.
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因为偷了一个手机被捕入狱
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Or a woman, I picked up her baby,
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或者一个女人；我抱起她的孩子，
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really cute baby, I said "Your baby is so cute."
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真的很可爱，我说：”你孩子真讨人喜欢。“
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It wasn't a baby, she was three.
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那不是个婴儿，她已经3岁了。
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And she said "Yeah, but she's why I'm here,"
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母亲告诉我:"是啊，就是因为她我才进来的”
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because she was accused of stealing
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因为这个母亲为了孩子
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two diapers and an iron for her baby and
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偷了两片纸尿布和一个熨斗而获罪
05:11
still had been in prison.
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仍被关在监狱里
05:13
And when I walked up to the prison director,
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我找到监狱的主管
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I said, "You've got to let her out.
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说：“你该放她出去。
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A judge would let her out."
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法官会释放她的。”
05:19
And he said, "Okay, we can talk about it,
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他说：“好啊，我们可以商量一下，
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but look at my prison. Eighty percent
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不过看看这座监狱，这里面
05:23
of the two thousand people here
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两千多人中的百分之八十
05:25
are without a lawyer. What can we do?"
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都没有律师。我们该怎么办？”
05:27
So lawyers began to courageously
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于是我们的律师们开始勇敢地
05:29
stand up together to organize a system
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站出来组织一个系统
05:32
where they can take cases.
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以便接这些案子。
05:34
But we realized that it's not only the training
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可是我们发现不光是律师的素质训练
05:36
of the lawyers, but the connection
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更重要的是他们的人际关系
05:38
of the lawyers that makes a difference.
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决定事情的进展。
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For example, in Cambodia, it was that
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比如说在柬埔寨，
05:42
[inaudible name] did not go alone
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某人不是自己孤身上法庭
05:44
but she had 24 lawyers with her
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而是有24个律师
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who stood up together. And in the same way,
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合力帮助他。同样的
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in China, they always tell me,
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在中国，他们告诉我
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"It's like a fresh wind in the desert
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“我们一起合作时，
05:52
when we can come together."
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感觉就像沙漠上来了凉风一样。”
05:54
Or in Zimbabwe, where I remember Innocent,
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在津巴布韦，我想起了英诺森
05:56
after coming out of a prison where everybody
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从一间监狱出来之后--那里的每个人
05:58
stood up and said, "I've been here
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都站起来说：“我在这儿
06:00
for one year, eight years, 12 years
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一年，八年，或者十二年
06:02
without a lawyer,"
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都没有律师，”--
06:04
he came and we had a training together
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英诺森到了我们这里，一起参加培训
06:06
and he said, "I have heard it said" --
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他讲：“我听人这样说过”--
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because he had heard people mumbling
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因为他听过很多这样的嘀咕、抱怨--
06:11
and grumbling -- "I have heard it said that
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“我听别人说
06:13
we cannot help to create justice
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我们没法儿建立司法公正
06:16
because we do not have the resources."
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因为我们缺乏资源。”
06:18
And then he said, "But I want you to know
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他又说：“但是我想让你明白
06:20
that the lack of resources
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缺少资源
06:23
is never an excuse for injustice."
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永远不是不公正的借口。"
06:25
And with that, he successfully
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带着这份信念，他成功地
06:27
organized 68 lawyers who have been
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组织了68名律师
06:30
systematically taking the cases.
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这些人一直在成系统地接这样的案子。
06:32
The key that we see, though, is training
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我们发现重点在于培训
06:35
and then early access.
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并且给人们尽早接触律师的机会
06:37
I was recently in Egypt, and was inspired
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我最近在埃及，突发奇想
06:39
to meet with another group of lawyers,
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和另一群律师碰了面
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and what they told me is that they said,
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他们告诉我
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"Hey, look, we don't have police
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”瞧瞧，我们的街上现在
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on the streets now. The police are
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没有警察了。
06:47
one of the main reasons why we had
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警察是造成这次革命的主要原因之一
06:49
the revolution. They were torturing everybody
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他们滥用刑罚，
06:51
all the time."
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一直如此。“
06:53
And I said, "But there's been tens of millions
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我不解道：”可是前些时候已经
06:55
of dollars that have recently gone in
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有几千万美元被用于
06:57
to the development of the legal system here.
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发展法律系统了。
06:59
What's going on?"
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到底发生了什么？“
07:01
I met with one of the development agencies,
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我走访了一个法律发展部门
07:04
and they were training prosecutors
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他们当时在培训检察官
07:06
and judges, which is the normal bias,
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和法官，这就是他们通常的偏见，
07:08
as opposed to defenders.
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不培训辩护律师。
07:10
And they showed me a manual which
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他们给我看了一个小册子
07:12
actually was an excellent manual.
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这个东西很棒
07:14
I said, "I'm gonna copy this."
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我说：”我想复印一下."
07:16
It had everything in it. Lawyers can come
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这里面涵盖了所有规定：律师被允许
07:18
at the police station. It was perfect.
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到警察局来。太棒了。
07:20
Prosecutors were perfectly trained.
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上面说检察官也会接受完善的培训。
07:22
But I said to them, "I just have one question,
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我对他们说，“我只有一个问题想问
07:24
which is, by the time that everybody got to
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就是嫌疑人来到
07:26
the prosecutor's office, what had happened to them?"
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检查官办公室之前，他们会经历什么？”
07:28
And after a pause, they said,
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稍做停顿之后，他们说，
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"They had been tortured."
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“他们得吃点儿苦头。”
07:32
So the pieces are,
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所以问题的答案
07:34
not only the training of the lawyers, but
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不光是培训律师，而且
07:36
us finding a way to systematically implement
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在于找到办法系统地保证
07:39
early access to counsel, because they are
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嫌疑人尽早接触到律师，因为他们是
07:42
the safeguard in the system
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系统中的保护措施，
07:44
for people who are being tortured.
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保护被刑讯逼供的人。
07:47
And as I tell you this, I'm also aware of the
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我在跟你们说这些的时候，我知道
07:49
fact that it sounds like, "Oh, okay, it sounds
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这些听起来好像是：“哦，好啊，
07:51
like we could do it, but can we really do it?"
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听起来我们像是能够解决问题了?可是真的能吗？”
07:54
Because it sounds big.
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给人感觉理想太大了
07:56
And there are many reasons why I believe it's possible.
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但是我有很多理由相信它完全有可能实现。
07:59
The first reason is the people on the ground
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第一个理由是在基层做事的人们
08:02
who find ways of creating miracles
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他们独辟蹊径地在创造奇迹
08:05
because of their commitment.
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因为他们的信念和坚持
08:07
It's not only Innocent, who I told you about
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不只是我告诉你们的那个津巴布韦的英诺森
08:10
in Zimbabwe, but defenders all over the world
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而是来自全世界的很多辩护律师
08:13
who are looking for these pieces.
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都在为寻找答案努力
08:16
We have a program called JusticeMakers,
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我们有一个项目叫“公正缔造者”
08:19
and we realized there are people that are
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从中我们发现很多人
08:21
courageous and want to do things, but
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都有勇气并且愿意做事，但是
08:23
how can we support them?
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我们如何支持他们呢？
08:25
So it's an online contest where it's only
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所以有了一个网上的竞赛：
08:27
five thousand dollars if you come up with
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奖励是5000美元，如果你想出一个
08:29
and innovative way of implementing justice.
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创造性的维护司法公正的方式。
08:31
And there are 30 JusticeMakers
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我们有30个“公正缔造者”
08:33
throughout the world, from Sri Lanka
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来自世界各地，比如斯里兰卡
08:35
to Swaziland to the DRC, who with
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史瓦济兰，刚果（金）
08:38
five thousand dollars do amazing things,
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他们用5000美元做出了惊人的贡献
08:41
through SMS programs,
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通过短讯息服务，
08:43
through paralegal programs,
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通过律师助理训练
08:45
through whatever they can do.
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通过他们能用的各种方式。
08:47
And it's not only these JusticeMakers,
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而且不仅是这些“公正缔造者”
08:51
but people we courageously see
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而且我们看见有的人很勇敢地
08:53
figure out who their networks are
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利用他们的关系
08:56
and how they can move it forward.
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促进事情的发展。
08:58
So in China, for instance, great laws
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比如在中国，有这样的立法
09:00
came out where it says police cannot
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说警察不能
09:03
torture people or they will be punished.
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虐待嫌疑人，否则他们将受到处罚
09:06
And I was sitting side by side with one of our
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当时我坐在一个
09:09
very courageous lawyers, and said,
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很有勇气的律师旁边，我说
09:12
"How can we get this out? How can we
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“我们该怎么怎么办?怎么才能
09:14
make sure that this is implemented?
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保证这些法律被执行？
09:16
This is fantastic." And he said to me,
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它们都很不错。”他就对我说
09:18
"Well, do you have money?" And I said,
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“你有钱吗？”我说
09:20
"No." And he said, "That's okay,
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“没有”。 然后他说，“没关系，
09:22
we can still figure it out."
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我们还能想办法。”
09:24
And on December 4, he organized
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12月4日，他组织了
09:26
three thousand members
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3000名
09:28
of the Youth Communist League,
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共青团员
09:30
from 14 of the top law schools,
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来自14个中国最好的法学院
09:32
who organized themselves, developed
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他们自己组织起来制作了
09:34
posters with the new laws, and went
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关于这些立法的宣传画
09:36
to the police stations and began what he says
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来到警察局，开始了他所宣称的
09:38
is a non-violent legal revolution
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一次非暴力的法制革命
09:41
to protect citizen rights.
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以保护公民权利。
09:44
So I talked about the fact that we need
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所以我刚才讲到我们需要
09:46
to train and support defenders.
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培训和支持辩护律师
09:48
We need to systematically implement
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并且我们要系统化地保证
09:50
early access to counsel.
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嫌疑人尽早接触律师。
09:52
But the third and most important thing is that
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而第三个也是最重要的事情
09:54
we make a commitment to this.
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就是我们坚持这项事业。
09:56
And people often say to me, "You know,
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人们经常对我说：”你知道的，
09:58
this is great, but it's wildly idealistic.
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这个真的很好，只是太过理想主义了。
10:00
Never going to happen."
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恐怕不能实现。”
10:02
And the reason that I think that
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我认为这话很有意思
10:04
those words are interesting is because
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它有意思就因为
10:06
those were the same kinds of words
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它被说过无数次了
10:08
that were used for people who decided
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被那些决定
10:10
they would end slavery, or end apartheid.
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废除奴隶制、或者种族隔离的人都用过。
10:12
It began with a small group of people
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每次都是一小群人开始
10:14
who decided they would commit.
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他们决定他们能坚持
10:16
Now, there's one of our favorite poems
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这里有一首
10:18
from the defenders, which they share
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我们的律师们最喜欢的诗，他们互相之间
10:20
from each other, is:
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交换诗作
10:22
"Take courage friends, the road is often long,
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“鼓起勇气吧朋友们，尽管前路漫漫，
10:24
the path is never clear,
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方向难辨，
10:26
and the stakes are very high,
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责任重大
10:28
but deep down, you are not alone."
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但心底里你并不孤单。”
10:30
And I believe that if we can come together
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我相信如果我们能团结起来
10:33
as a world community to support not only
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以国际社会的名义支持
10:35
defenders, but also everyone in the system
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不仅律师们，而且法律系统中
10:38
who is looking towards it,
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的所有关注者
10:40
we can end torture as an investigative tool.
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我们就能制止刑讯逼供
10:43
I end always, because I'm sure the questions are --
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我知道人们还是有疑问
10:45
and I'd be happy to talk to you
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我也很乐意跟你们多聊聊
10:47
at any point -- "But what can I really do?"
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任何时候都行--我知道人们会问：“我到底能做什么？”
10:49
Well, I would say this. First of all,
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我会告诉你们，首先，
10:51
you know what you can do. But second of all,
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你知道你能干什么。其次
10:53
I would leave you with the story of Vishna,
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我想告诉你们一个叫维什那的孩子的故事
10:55
who actually was my inspiration
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他给了我灵感
10:58
for starting International Bridges to Justice.
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让我组建了”国际公正桥“组织
11:00
Vishna was a 4-year-old boy when I met him
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我见到维什那时他四岁
11:03
who was born in a Cambodian prison
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他生在一个柬埔寨的监狱里
11:05
in Kandal Province. But because he was
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在甘丹省。因为他
11:08
born in the prison, everybody loved him,
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生在监狱，那儿每个人都喜欢他
11:10
including the guards, so he was the only one
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包括监狱的守卫，所以他是唯一一个
11:12
who was allowed to come
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被允许
11:14
in and out of the bars.
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从栅栏间进出的人
11:16
So, you know, there's bars. And by the time
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你们也知道，那地方有很多栅栏
11:18
that Vishna was getting bigger,
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当维什那长大了一些的时候
11:20
which means what gets bigger? Your head gets bigger.
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他的脑袋变大了
11:22
So he would come to the first bar,
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所以当他钻进第一个栅栏
11:24
the second bar and then the third bar,
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然后第二个、第三个栅栏
11:26
and then really slowly move his head
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然后慢慢挪动他的头
11:28
so he could fit through, and come back,
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他还能进去，然后再回来
11:30
third, second, first. And he would
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第三个、第二个、第一个，接着他就
11:32
grab my pinkie, because what he wanted
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抓住我的小拇指，他就喜欢这样
11:34
to do every day is he wanted to go visit.
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每天在监狱里串门
11:36
You know, he never quite made it to
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尽管他没办法每天
11:38
all of them every day, but he wanted to visit
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拜访每一个人，但他真的想看到
11:40
all 156 prisoners. And I would lift him,
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所有156个囚犯。我会把他抱起来
11:42
and he would put his fingers through.
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然后他把手指放进那个小缝隙里
11:44
Or if they were dark cells, it was like iron
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有时牢房是暗室
11:46
corrugated, and he would put his fingers through.
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有的地方是瓦楞铁板，他就把手纸伸进缝隙里
11:48
And most of the prisoners said that he was
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大部分囚犯都说
11:50
their greatest joy and their sunshine, and they
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他是他们最大的快乐
11:52
looked forward to him. And I was like,
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他们期待着见到他。我就想
11:54
here's Vishna. He's a 4-year-old boy.
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维什那，一个四岁的孩子
11:56
He was born in a prison with almost nothing,
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生在监狱里，一无所有
11:58
no material goods, but he had a sense of
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没有任何物质享受，但是他有一种
12:00
his own heroic journey, which I believe
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对自身英雄之旅的把握，我相信
12:02
we are all born into. He said,
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我们天生都有。他说
12:04
"Probably I can't do everything.
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“可能我无法做到一切
12:06
But I'm one. I can do something.
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但是能出一份力。
12:08
And I will do the one thing that I can do."
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我就把我能做的做了。”
12:10
So I thank you for having the prophetic
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所以我谢谢你们
12:12
imagination to imagine the shaping
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与我们共同畅想
12:15
of a new world with us together,
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一个更美好的世界
12:17
and invite you into this journey with us.
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也邀请你们与我们同行。
12:19
Thank you.
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谢谢。
12:21
(Applause)
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（掌声）
12:29
Thank you.
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谢谢。
12:31
(Applause)
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（掌声）
12:33
Thank you.
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谢谢。
12:35
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Karen Tse - Anti-torture activistIn too many countries, it's still normal to torture prisoners for confessions and information. Karen Tse works to end that.
Why you should listen
A former public defender, Karen Tse developed an interest in the intersection of criminal law and human rights after observing Southeast Asian refugees held in a local prison without trial, often tortured to obtain "confessions." In 1994, she moved to Cambodia to train the country's first core group of public defenders. Under the auspices of the UN, she trained judges and prosecutors, and established the first arraignment court in Cambodia.
In 2000, Tse founded International Bridges to Justice to help create systemic change in criminal justice and promote basic rights of legal representation for defendants on the ground. Her foundation complements the work of witness groups, who do the equally vital work of advocacy, reports, photographs. Tse's group helps governments build new systems that respect individual rights. In IBJ's first years, she negotiated groundbreaking measures in judicial reform with the Chinese, Vietnamese and Cambodian governments. It now works in sixteen countries, including Rwanda, Burundi and India.
She says: "I believe it is possible to end torture in my lifetime."
Karen Tse | Speaker | TED.com