ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Karen Tse - Anti-torture activist
In too many countries, it's still normal to torture prisoners for confessions and information. Karen Tse works to end that.

Why you should listen

A former public defender, Karen Tse developed an interest in the intersection of criminal law and human rights after observing Southeast Asian refugees held in a local prison without trial, often tortured to obtain "confessions." In 1994, she moved to Cambodia to train the country's first core group of public defenders. Under the auspices of the UN, she trained judges and prosecutors, and established the first arraignment court in Cambodia.

In 2000, Tse founded International Bridges to Justice to help create systemic change in criminal justice and promote basic rights of legal representation for defendants on the ground. Her foundation complements the work of witness groups, who do the equally vital work of advocacy, reports, photographs. Tse's group helps governments build new systems that respect individual rights. In IBJ's first years, she negotiated groundbreaking measures  in judicial reform with the Chinese, Vietnamese and Cambodian governments. It now works in sixteen countries, including Rwanda, Burundi and India.

She says: "I believe it is possible to end torture in my lifetime."

More profile about the speaker
Karen Tse | Speaker | TED.com
TEDGlobal 2011

Karen Tse: How to stop torture

Karen Tse: Kako ustaviti mučenje

Filmed:
599,891 views

Politični zaporniki niso edini, ki jih mučijo - velika večina mučenja v kazenskem postopku se zgodi v navadnih primerih, celo v "delujočih" pravnih sistemih. Socialna aktivistka Karen Tse nam pokaže, kako se lahko in kako bi se tudi morali upreti rutinski uporabi mučenja.
- Anti-torture activist
In too many countries, it's still normal to torture prisoners for confessions and information. Karen Tse works to end that. Full bio

Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.

00:16
In 1994, I walkedhodil into a prisonzapor in CambodiaKambodža,
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Leta 1994 sem obiskala zapor v Kambodži
00:20
and I metsrečal a 12-year-old- letnik boyfant
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in spoznala dvanajstletnega fanta,
00:23
who had been torturedmučeni
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ki so ga mučili
00:25
and was deniedzanikal accessdostop to counselsvetovalec.
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in mu preprečili dostop do obrambe.
00:27
And as I lookedpogledal into his eyesoči, I realizedrealiziran
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Ko sem mu pogledala v oči, sem spoznala,
00:29
that for the hundredsstotine of lettersčrke I had writtennapisano
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da kljub stotinam pisem, ki sem jih napisala
00:31
for politicalpolitično prisonerszaporniki, that I would never have
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v podporo političnim zapornikom, nikoli ne bi
00:34
writtennapisano a letterpismo for him,
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napisala pisma v njegovo podporo,
00:36
because he was not a 12-year-old- letnik boyfant who
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saj ni bil dvanajstletnik,
00:38
had doneKončano something importantpomembno for anybodykdorkoli.
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ki bi za kogarkoli naredil kaj pomembnega.
00:40
He was not a politicalpolitično prisonerzapornik.
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Ni bil politični zapornik.
00:42
He was a 12-year-old- letnik boyfant who had
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Bil je dvanajstletni deček,
00:44
stolenukraden a bicyclekolo.
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ki je ukradel kolo.
00:46
What I alsotudi realizedrealiziran at that pointtočka was that
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Takrat sem tudi ugotovila,
00:48
it was not only CambodiaKambodža, but
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da ne gre samo za Kambodžo,
00:50
of the 113
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ampak da je od 113 držav v razvoju,
00:52
developingrazvoj countriesdržave that torturemučenje,
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ki izvajajo mučenje,
00:54
93 of these countriesdržave have all passedminilo lawszakoni
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93 med njimi sprejelo zakone,
00:57
that say you have a right to a lawyerodvetnik
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ki dajejo pravico do odvetnika
00:59
and you have a right not to be torturedmučeni.
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in prepovedujejo mučenje.
01:02
And what I recognizedpriznana was that there was an
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Pri tem sem spoznala, da obstaja
01:04
incredibleneverjetno windowokno of opportunitypriložnost for us
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neverjetna priložnost, da se
01:06
as a worldsvet communityskupnosti to come togetherskupaj
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kot svetovna skupnost združimo
01:09
and endkonec torturemučenje as an investigativepreiskovalnih toolorodje.
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in končamo mučenje kot preiskovalno prakso.
01:12
We oftenpogosto think of torturemučenje as beingbiti
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O mučenju pogosto razmišljamo kot
01:14
politicalpolitično torturemučenje or reservedpridržane for
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da je politične narave ali omejeno
01:16
just the worstnajhujše, but, in factdejstvo,
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samo za najhujše ljudi, a v resnici
01:19
95 percentodstotkov of torturemučenje todaydanes
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dandanes 95 odstotkov žrtev mučenja
01:21
is not for politicalpolitično prisonerszaporniki.
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niso politični zaporniki.
01:23
It is for people who are
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So ljudje, ki so se znašli
01:25
in broken-downrazčlenitvi legalpravno systemssistemov,
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v nedelujočih pravnih sistemih
01:27
and unfortunatelyna žalost because torturemučenje is
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in na žalost zato, ker je mučenje
01:29
the cheapestnajcenejši formobrazec of investigationpreiskavo --
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najcenejša oblika preiskovanja...
01:31
it's cheapercenejši than havingimeti a legalpravno systemsistem,
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cenejša kot imeti pravni sistem,
01:33
cheapercenejši than havingimeti a lawyerodvetnik
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cenejša od odvetnika
01:35
and earlyzgodaj accessdostop to counselsvetovalec --
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in od zgodnjega dostopa do obrambe...
01:37
it is what happensse zgodi mostnajbolj of the time.
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večinoma se dogaja to.
01:39
I believe todaydanes that it is possiblemogoče for us
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Verjamem, da lahko, če se
01:41
as a worldsvet communityskupnosti, if we make a decisionodločitev,
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kot svetovna skupnost odločimo,
01:44
to come togetherskupaj and endkonec torturemučenje
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da bomo stopili skupaj, še v času našega življenja
01:46
as an investigativepreiskovalnih toolorodje in our lifetimeživljenska doba,
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končamo mučenje kot preiskovalno orodje,
01:49
but it will requirezahtevajo threetri things.
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a potrebne bodo tri stvari.
01:51
First is the trainingusposabljanje, empowermentopolnomočenje,
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Prva je usposabljanje, opolnomočenje
01:54
and connectionpovezavo of defenderszagovornikov worldwidepo vsem svetu.
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in povezanost branilcev pravic po svetu.
01:57
The seconddrugič is insuringzavarovanje that there is
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Druga je zagotavljanje
02:00
systematicsistematično earlyzgodaj accessdostop to counselsvetovalec.
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sistematičnega zgodnjega dostopa do obrambe.
02:03
And the thirdtretjino is commitmentzavezanost.
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In tretja je zavezanost.
02:06
So in the yearleto 2000,
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Leta 2000
02:08
I beganzačel to wonderčudno,
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sem se začela spraševati,
02:11
what if we cameprišel togetherskupaj?
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kaj če bi stopili skupaj.
02:14
Could we do something
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Bi lahko naredili kaj
02:16
for these 93 countriesdržave?
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za teh 93 držav?
02:18
And I foundedustanovljen InternationalInternational BridgesMostovi to JusticePravosodje
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In ustanovila sem Mednarodne mostove do pravice,
02:20
whichki has a specificspecifično missionposlanstvo of
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s posebno misijo
02:22
endingkonec torturemučenje as an investigativepreiskovalnih toolorodje
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končati mučenje kot preiskovalno metodo
02:25
and implementingizvajanje duedolžan processproces rightspravice
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in izvajati pravico do poštenega sojenja v 93 državah,
02:27
in the 93 countriesdržave by placingdajanje trainedusposobljeni lawyersodvetniki
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tako da bi usposobljene odvetnike v zgodnji fazi
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at an earlyzgodaj stagestopnja in policepolicija stationspostaje
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pripeljali na policijske postaje
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and in courtroomssodišč.
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in v sodne dvorane.
02:34
My first experiencesizkušnje, thoughčeprav, did come
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Moje prve izkušnje pa so iz Kambodže
02:36
from CambodiaKambodža, and at the time I rememberZapomni si
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in spomnim se, da ko sem
02:39
first comingprihajajo to CambodiaKambodža and there were,
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leta 1994 prvič prišla v Kambodžo,
02:41
in 1994, still lessmanj than
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je bilo tam
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10 attorneysodvetniki in the countrydržava because
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manj kot deset odvetnikov,
02:45
the KhmerKamboščina RougeRouge had killedubil them all.
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saj je režim Rdečih kmerov vse pobil.
02:47
And even 20 yearslet laterpozneje, there was only
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Še dvajset let kasneje
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10 lawyersodvetniki in the countrydržava, so consequentlyzato
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jih je bilo komaj deset,
02:51
you'dTi bi walkhodi into a prisonzapor and
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zato smo ob prihodu v zapor srečali
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not only would you meetsrečati 12-year-old- letnik boysfantje,
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ne samo dvanajstletne fante,
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you'dTi bi meetsrečati womenženske and you'dTi bi say,
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ampak tudi ženske; vprašali smo jih
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"Why are you here?" WomenŽenske would say,
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"Zakaj ste tu?" Ženske so odvrnile:
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"Well I've been here for 10 yearslet because
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"Tu sem že deset let, ker je moj mož
03:01
my husbandmož committedstorjeno a crimekriminal, but they can't find him."
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zagrešil zločin, ampak ga ne morejo najti."
03:03
So it's just a placemesto where there was no rulepravilo of lawzakon.
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Gre za prostor, kjer vladavina prava ni obstajala.
03:06
The first groupskupina of defenderszagovornikov cameprišel togetherskupaj
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Prva skupina zagovornikov je prišla skupaj
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and I still rememberZapomni si, as I was trainingusposabljanje, I said,
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in še se spomnim treninga, na katerem sem rekla:
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"Okay, what do you do for an investigationpreiskavo?"
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"Ok, kako izvajate preiskavo?"
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And there was silencetišina in the classrazred, and finallykončno
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V razredu je nastala tišina in končno
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one womanženska stoodstojalo up, [inaudibleneslišno nameime],
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je ena od žensk vstala [ime ni razumljivo]
03:16
and she said "KhrewKhrew," whichki meanssredstva "teacheručitelj."
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in dejala "Khrew", kar pomeni "učitelj".
03:19
She said, "I have defendedbranil more than
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Rekla je: "Branila sem več kot sto ljudi
03:22
a hundredsto people, and I've never had to do
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in nikoli mi ni bilo treba
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any investigationpreiskavo,
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izvesti preiskave,
03:27
because they all come with confessionsIzpovedi."
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saj vsi pridejo s priznanjem."
03:29
And we talkedgovoril about, as a classrazred, the factdejstvo that
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Kot razred smo se pogovarjali o tem, da
03:32
numberštevilka one, the confessionsIzpovedi
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prvič, priznanja morda niso zanesljiva,
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mightmorda not be reliablezanesljiv, but numberštevilka two,
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in drugič,
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we did not want to encouragespodbujati the policepolicija
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da nočemo spodbujati policije,
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to keep doing this, especiallyše posebej
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naj to še naprej počne, še posebej
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as it was now againstproti the lawzakon.
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ker je protizakonito.
03:42
And it tookvzel a lot of couragepogum for these
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Ti zagovorniki so potrebovali
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defenderszagovornikov to decideodloči that they would
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veliko poguma, da so začeli
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beginzačeti to standstojalo up and supportpodporo eachvsak other
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braniti in podpirati drug drugega
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in implementingizvajanje these lawszakoni.
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pri izvajanju teh zakonov.
03:51
And I still rememberZapomni si the first casesprimerov where
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Še se spomnim prvih primerov, ko
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they cameprišel, all 25 togetherskupaj, she would
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je vseh 25 skupaj prišlo na obravnavo,
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standstojalo up, and they were in the back, and
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ena je vstala, ostali so bili v ozadju,
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they would supportpodporo her, and the judgessodniki kepthranijo
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da bi jo podprli, sodniki pa so govorili:
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sayinggovoriti, "No, no, no, no, we're going to do things
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"Ne, ne, ne, ne, stvari bomo počeli
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the exacttočno sameenako way we'vesmo been doing them."
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natanko tako kot doslej."
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But one day the perfectpopolno caseprimera cameprišel, and it
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A nekoč je prišel popoln primer,
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was a womanženska who was a vegetablezelenjava sellerprodajalec,
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šlo je za prodajalko zelenjave,
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she was sittingsedi outsidezunaj of a househiša.
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ki je sedela pred hišo.
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She said she actuallydejansko saw the personoseba
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Dejala je, da je videla nekoga
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runteči out who she thinksmisli stoleukradel
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priteči ven, za katerega je menila, da je ukradel
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whateverkarkoli the jewelrynakit was, but the policepolicija
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neke vrste nakit, a prišla je policija
04:16
cameprišel, they got her, there was nothing on her.
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in jo prijela, vendar ničesar niso našli.
04:18
She was pregnantnoseča at the time. She had
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Takrat je bila noseča. Telo je imela
04:20
cigarettecigareta burnsopekline on her. She'dOna bi miscarriedmiscarried.
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ožgano od cigaret. Splavila je.
04:22
And when they broughtprinesel her caseprimera
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In ko je njen primer prišel pred sodnika,
04:24
to the judgesodnik, for the first time he stoodstojalo up
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je ta prvič sploh vstal in dejal:
04:26
and he said, "Yes, there's no evidencedokazov
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"Res, ni nobenega dokaza,
04:28
exceptrazen for your torturemučenje confessionpriznanje
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razen vašega priznanja, da se je zgodilo mučenje,
04:30
and you will be releasedsprosti."
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in izpuščeni ste."
04:32
And the defenderszagovornikov beganzačel to take casesprimerov
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Zagovorniki so začeli sprejemati
04:34
over and over again and
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nove in nove primere in
04:36
you will see, they have stepkorak by stepkorak beganzačel
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kot boste videli, so zlagoma začeli
04:39
to changesprememba the courseseveda of historyzgodovina in CambodiaKambodža.
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spreminjati tok zgodovine v Kambodži.
04:42
But CambodiaKambodža is not alonesam.
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Vendar Kambodža ni osamljena.
04:44
I used to think, well is it CambodiaKambodža?
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Spraševala sem se, mar gre za Kambodžo?
04:46
Or is it other countriesdržave?
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Ali gre za druge države?
04:48
But it is in so manyveliko countriesdržave.
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A dogaja se v tako veliko državah.
04:51
In BurundiBurundi I walkedhodil into a prisonzapor and it wasn'tni bilo
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V Burundiju sem obiskala zapor in nisem srečala
04:53
a 12-year-old- letnik boyfant, it was an 8-year-old- letnik boyfant
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dvanajstletnega, pač pa osemletnega fanta,
04:56
for stealingtatvina a mobilemobilni phonetelefon.
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ki je ukradel mobilni telefon.
04:58
Or a womanženska, I pickedizbrali up her babyotroka,
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Ali žensko, katere dojenčka sem vzela v roke,
05:00
really cutesrčkano babyotroka, I said "Your babyotroka is so cutesrčkano."
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res srčkan dojenček. Rekla sem: "Vaš otročiček je tako lep."
05:03
It wasn'tni bilo a babyotroka, she was threetri.
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Saj ni bil dojenček, punčka je imela tri leta.
05:05
And she said "Yeah, but she's why I'm here,"
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In odgovorila je: "Ja, ampak zaradi nje sem tu,"
05:07
because she was accusedobtožen of stealingtatvina
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kajti obtožili so jo kraje
05:09
two diapersplenice and an ironželezo for her babyotroka and
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dveh plenic ter likalnika za svojega otroka
05:11
still had been in prisonzapor.
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in še vedno je bila v zaporu.
05:13
And when I walkedhodil up to the prisonzapor directordirektor,
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In ko sem odšla k direktorju zapora,
05:15
I said, "You've got to let her out.
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sem dejala: "Morate jo izpustiti.
05:17
A judgesodnik would let her out."
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Sodnik bi jo izpustil."
05:19
And he said, "Okay, we can talk about it,
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In rekel je: "Prav, lahko se pogovoriva o tem,
05:21
but look at my prisonzapor. EightyOsemdeset percentodstotkov
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ampak poglejte tale zapor. 80 odstotkov
05:23
of the two thousandtisoč people here
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od dva tisoč ljudi tule
05:25
are withoutbrez a lawyerodvetnik. What can we do?"
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nima odvetnika. Kaj lahko storimo?"
05:27
So lawyersodvetniki beganzačel to courageouslypogumno
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Tako so odvetniki začeli pogumno
05:29
standstojalo up togetherskupaj to organizeorganizirati a systemsistem
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sodelovati, da bi organizirali sistem,
05:32
where they can take casesprimerov.
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v katerem bi lahko sprejemali primere.
05:34
But we realizedrealiziran that it's not only the trainingusposabljanje
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A ugotovili smo, da ni potrebno samo usposabljanje
05:36
of the lawyersodvetniki, but the connectionpovezavo
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odvetnikov, temveč povezava med njimi,
05:38
of the lawyersodvetniki that makesnaredi a differenceRazlika.
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to naredi pomembno razliko.
05:40
For exampleprimer, in CambodiaKambodža, it was that
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V Kambodži, denimo,
05:42
[inaudibleneslišno nameime] did not go alonesam
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[ime ni razumljivo] ni bila sama,
05:44
but she had 24 lawyersodvetniki with her
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z njo je bilo 24 odvetnikov,
05:46
who stoodstojalo up togetherskupaj. And in the sameenako way,
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ki so nastopili skupaj. Na enak način
05:48
in ChinaKitajska, they always tell me,
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to poteka na Kitajskem, vedno slišim:
05:50
"It's like a freshsveže windveter in the desertpuščava
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"Kot svež veter v puščavi je,
05:52
when we can come togetherskupaj."
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ko pridemo skupaj."
05:54
Or in ZimbabweZimbabve, where I rememberZapomni si InnocentNedolžni,
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Ali v Zimbabveju, kjer se spominjam Innocenta,
05:56
after comingprihajajo out of a prisonzapor where everybodyvsi
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potem ko je prišel iz zapora, v katerem so
05:58
stoodstojalo up and said, "I've been here
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vsi skupaj rekli: "Tu sem že
06:00
for one yearleto, eightosem yearslet, 12 yearslet
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leto dni, osem let, dvanajst let
06:02
withoutbrez a lawyerodvetnik,"
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brez odvetnika,"
06:04
he cameprišel and we had a trainingusposabljanje togetherskupaj
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prišel je in skupaj sva izvedla trening
06:06
and he said, "I have heardslišal it said" --
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in dejal je: "Slišal sem govoriti"...
06:09
because he had heardslišal people mumblingmrmranje
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kajti ljudi je slišal mrmrati in godrnjati...
06:11
and grumblingČantrav -- "I have heardslišal it said that
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"Slišal sem, da
06:13
we cannotne morem help to createustvarite justicepravičnost
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ne moremo pomagati ustvarjati pravice,
06:16
because we do not have the resourcesvirov."
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ker nimamo sredstev."
06:18
And then he said, "But I want you to know
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In potem je rekel: "Ampak želim, da veste,
06:20
that the lackpomanjkanje of resourcesvirov
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da pomanjkanje sredstev
06:23
is never an excuseizgovor for injusticenepravičnost."
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ni nikakršen izgovor za nepravičnost."
06:25
And with that, he successfullyuspešno
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Tako je uspešno
06:27
organizedorganizirano 68 lawyersodvetniki who have been
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organiziral 68 odvetnikov, ki zdaj
06:30
systematicallysistematično takingjemanje the casesprimerov.
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sistematično sprejemajo primere.
06:32
The keyključ that we see, thoughčeprav, is trainingusposabljanje
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Ključna stvar pa je, kot kaže, usposabljanje
06:35
and then earlyzgodaj accessdostop.
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in nato zgodnji dostop.
06:37
I was recentlypred kratkim in EgyptEgipt, and was inspirednavdihnjen
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Nedavno sem bila v Egiptu, navdušena
06:39
to meetsrečati with anotherdrugo groupskupina of lawyersodvetniki,
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nad srečanjem s skupino pravnikov,
06:41
and what they told me is that they said,
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ki so mi povedali:
06:43
"Hey, look, we don't have policepolicija
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"Glejte, na ulicah sedaj ni policije.
06:45
on the streetsulice now. The policepolicija are
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Policija je eden od glavnih razlogov
06:47
one of the mainglavni reasonsrazlogov why we had
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za to, da smo imeli revolucijo.
06:49
the revolutionrevolucija. They were torturingmučenja everybodyvsi
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V tistem času
06:51
all the time."
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so mučili vsakogar."
06:53
And I said, "But there's been tensdeset of millionsmilijoni
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Odvrnila sem: "Ampak na desetine milijonov
06:55
of dollarsdolarjev that have recentlypred kratkim goneizginil in
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dolarjev je nedavno šlo za
06:57
to the developmentrazvoj of the legalpravno systemsistem here.
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razvoj tukajšnjega pravnega sistema.
06:59
What's going on?"
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Kaj se dogaja?"
07:01
I metsrečal with one of the developmentrazvoj agenciesagencije,
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Srečala sem se z eno od razvojnih agencij,
07:04
and they were trainingusposabljanje prosecutorstožilci
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ki usposablja tožilce in sodnike,
07:06
and judgessodniki, whichki is the normalnormalno biaspristranskost,
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kar je običajna praksa,
07:08
as opposednasprotuje to defenderszagovornikov.
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v nasprotju z usposabljanjem zagovornikov.
07:10
And they showedpokazala me a manualpriročnik whichki
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Pokazali so mi priročnik,
07:12
actuallydejansko was an excellentodlično manualpriročnik.
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ki je bil pravzaprav odličen.
07:14
I said, "I'm gonna copykopirati this."
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Rekla sem: "Tole bom skopirala."
07:16
It had everything in it. LawyersOdvetniki can come
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Vse je imel. Odvetniki smejo priti
07:18
at the policepolicija stationpostaja. It was perfectpopolno.
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na policijsko postajo. Popoln je bil.
07:20
ProsecutorsTožilci were perfectlypopolnoma trainedusposobljeni.
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Tožilci so bili odlično usposobljeni.
07:22
But I said to them, "I just have one questionvprašanje,
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Potem sem jim rekla: "Imam samo eno vprašanje.
07:24
whichki is, by the time that everybodyvsi got to
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Kaj se zgodi z ljudmi,
07:26
the prosecutor'stožilca officeurad, what had happenedse je zgodilo to them?"
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preden dosežejo tožilčevo pisarno?"
07:28
And after a pausepavza, they said,
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Po premolku so dejali:
07:30
"They had been torturedmučeni."
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"Mučili so jih."
07:32
So the pieceskosov are,
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Sestavni deli so torej
07:34
not only the trainingusposabljanje of the lawyersodvetniki, but
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ne samo usposabljanje pravnikov, ampak
07:36
us findingugotovitev a way to systematicallysistematično implementimplementirati
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najti način, kako sistematično izvajati
07:39
earlyzgodaj accessdostop to counselsvetovalec, because they are
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zgodnji dostop do obrambe, saj je to
07:42
the safeguardzaščitni in the systemsistem
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varovalka v sistemu
07:44
for people who are beingbiti torturedmučeni.
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za ljudi, ki jih mučijo.
07:47
And as I tell you this, I'm alsotudi awarese zaveda of the
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In ko vam to pravim, se tudi zavedam, da
07:49
factdejstvo that it soundszvoki like, "Oh, okay, it soundszvoki
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se sliši kot "oh, prav, zdi se, da bi to lahko naredili,
07:51
like we could do it, but can we really do it?"
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ampak ali to res lahko naredimo?"
07:54
Because it soundszvoki bigvelik.
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Kajti sliši se gromozansko.
07:56
And there are manyveliko reasonsrazlogov why I believe it's possiblemogoče.
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In veliko razlogov je, zaradi katerih verjamem, da je mogoče.
07:59
The first reasonrazlog is the people on the groundtla
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Prvi je, da obstajajo ljudje,
08:02
who find waysnačinov of creatingustvarjanje miraclesčudeže
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ki najdejo način za dosego čudežev,
08:05
because of theirnjihovi commitmentzavezanost.
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ker so tako predani.
08:07
It's not only InnocentNedolžni, who I told you about
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Ne gre samo za Innocenta iz Zimbabveja,
08:10
in ZimbabweZimbabve, but defenderszagovornikov all over the worldsvet
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ki sem ga omenila, ampak za zagovornike po vsem svetu,
08:13
who are looking for these pieceskosov.
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ki iščejo koščke te sestavljanke.
08:16
We have a programprogram calledpozval JusticeMakersJusticeMakers,
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Imamo program z imenom JusticeMakers (tvorci pravice)
08:19
and we realizedrealiziran there are people that are
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in ugotovili smo, da obstajajo pogumni ljudje,
08:21
courageouspogumno and want to do things, but
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ki hočejo nekaj narediti,
08:23
how can we supportpodporo them?
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ampak kako jih lahko podpremo?
08:25
So it's an onlinena spletu contesttekmovanje where it's only
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Gre za spletno tekmovanje z nagrado le
08:27
fivepet thousandtisoč dollarsdolarjev if you come up with
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5000 dolarjev, če razvijete
08:29
and innovativeinovativni way of implementingizvajanje justicepravičnost.
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inovativen način izvajanja pravice.
08:31
And there are 30 JusticeMakersJusticeMakers
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Po vsem svetu je 30 JusticeMaker-jev,
08:33
throughoutves čas the worldsvet, from SriSri LankaLanka
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od Šri Lanke do Svazilanda
08:35
to SwazilandSvazi to the DRCDRK, who with
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in Demokratične republike Kongo,
08:38
fivepet thousandtisoč dollarsdolarjev do amazingneverjetno things,
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ki s 5000 dolarji delajo čudovite reči,
08:41
throughskozi SMSSMS programsprogramov,
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skozi SMS programe,
08:43
throughskozi paralegalParalegal programsprogramov,
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skozi paralegalne programe,
08:45
throughskozi whateverkarkoli they can do.
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skozi kakršnokoli sredstvo pač lahko.
08:47
And it's not only these JusticeMakersJusticeMakers,
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In ne gre samo zanje,
08:51
but people we courageouslypogumno see
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ampak za ljudi, ki pogumno
08:53
figureštevilka out who theirnjihovi networksomrežij are
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ugotavljajo, kdo je v njihovem omrežju
08:56
and how they can movePremakni se it forwardnaprej.
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in kako ga lahko izboljšajo.
08:58
So in ChinaKitajska, for instanceprimer, great lawszakoni
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Na Kitajskem, na primer, so dosegli
09:00
cameprišel out where it sayspravi policepolicija cannotne morem
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odlične zakone, ki pravijo, da policija ne sme
09:03
torturemučenje people or they will be punishedkaznovan.
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mučiti ljudi, sicer bo kaznovana.
09:06
And I was sittingsedi sidestran by sidestran with one of our
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Sedela sem poleg enega naših
09:09
very courageouspogumno lawyersodvetniki, and said,
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zelo pogumnih pravnikov in rekla:
09:12
"How can we get this out? How can we
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"Kako lahko tole spravimo v javnost? Kako lahko zagotovimo,
09:14
make sure that this is implementedizvaja?
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da se bo uresničevalo?
09:16
This is fantasticfantastično." And he said to me,
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To je fantastično." Odgovoril je:
09:18
"Well, do you have moneydenar?" And I said,
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"Hm, imaš denar?" In dejala sem: "Ne."
09:20
"No." And he said, "That's okay,
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Potem je rekel: "V redu,
09:22
we can still figureštevilka it out."
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si bomo že nekaj izmislili."
09:24
And on DecemberDecembra 4, he organizedorganizirano
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In četrtega decembra je organiziral
09:26
threetri thousandtisoč membersčlanov
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tri tisoč članov
09:28
of the YouthMladih CommunistKomunistične LeagueLiga,
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podmladka Zveze komunistov
09:30
from 14 of the topna vrh lawzakon schoolsšole,
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s 14 najboljših pravnih fakultet,
09:32
who organizedorganizirano themselvessami, developedrazvili
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ki so se organizirali,
09:34
postersplakati with the newnovo lawszakoni, and wentšla
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napravili posterje z novimi zakoni in
09:36
to the policepolicija stationspostaje and beganzačel what he sayspravi
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šli na policijske postaje ter začeli, kot sam pravi,
09:38
is a non-violentnenasilno legalpravno revolutionrevolucija
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nenasilno pravno revolucijo
09:41
to protectzaščititi citizendržavljan rightspravice.
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za zaščito državljanskih pravic.
09:44
So I talkedgovoril about the factdejstvo that we need
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Govorila sem o tem, da je treba
09:46
to trainvlak and supportpodporo defenderszagovornikov.
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usposobiti in podpreti zagovornike.
09:48
We need to systematicallysistematično implementimplementirati
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Sistematično moramo izvajati
09:50
earlyzgodaj accessdostop to counselsvetovalec.
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zgodnji dostop do obrambe.
09:52
But the thirdtretjino and mostnajbolj importantpomembno thing is that
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Tretja najpomembnejša stvar pa je
09:54
we make a commitmentzavezanost to this.
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zaveza.
09:56
And people oftenpogosto say to me, "You know,
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Ljudje mi pogosto rečejo: "Veste,
09:58
this is great, but it's wildlydivje idealisticidealističen.
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to je krasno, ampak je noro idealistično.
10:00
Never going to happense zgodi."
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Nikoli se ne bo zgodilo."
10:02
And the reasonrazlog that I think that
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Mislim, da so te besede zanimive,
10:04
those wordsbesede are interestingzanimivo is because
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kajti to so bile
10:06
those were the sameenako kindsvrste of wordsbesede
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enake besede, kot tiste,
10:08
that were used for people who decidedodločil
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ki so jih izrekali ljudem, ki so se odločili
10:10
they would endkonec slaverysuženjstvo, or endkonec apartheidapartheid.
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za ukinitev suženjstva ali konec apartheida.
10:12
It beganzačel with a smallmajhna groupskupina of people
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Začelo se je z majhno skupino ljudi,
10:14
who decidedodločil they would commitzavezati.
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ki so se zavezali k nečemu.
10:16
Now, there's one of our favoritenajljubši poemspesmi
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Ena najljubših pesmi,
10:18
from the defenderszagovornikov, whichki they sharedeliti
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ki si jih delijo zagovorniki,
10:20
from eachvsak other, is:
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gre takole:
10:22
"Take couragepogum friendsprijatelji, the roadcesta is oftenpogosto long,
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"Prijatelji, bodite pogumni, pot je pogosto dolga,
10:24
the pathpot is never clearjasno,
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pot ni vedno jasna
10:26
and the stakesdelnice are very highvisoko,
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in veliko je nevarnosti,
10:28
but deepgloboko down, you are not alonesam."
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a globoko v sebi nisi sam."
10:30
And I believe that if we can come togetherskupaj
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In verjamen, da če stopimo skupaj
10:33
as a worldsvet communityskupnosti to supportpodporo not only
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kot svetovna skupnost in podpremo
10:35
defenderszagovornikov, but alsotudi everyonevsi in the systemsistem
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ne samo zagovornike, pač pa vse dele sistema,
10:38
who is looking towardsproti it,
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ki si za to prizadevajo,
10:40
we can endkonec torturemučenje as an investigativepreiskovalnih toolorodje.
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lahko ustavimo mučenje kot preiskovalno prakso.
10:43
I endkonec always, because I'm sure the questionsvprašanja are --
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Vem, da imate vprašanja
10:45
and I'd be happyvesel to talk to you
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in z veseljem se bom pogovorila z vami,
10:47
at any pointtočka -- "But what can I really do?"
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zato vedno končam takole: "Kaj lahko dejansko storim?"
10:49
Well, I would say this. First of all,
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Rekla bi takole. Prvič,
10:51
you know what you can do. But seconddrugič of all,
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veste, kaj lahko naredite. In drugič,
10:53
I would leavedopust you with the storyzgodba of VishnaVishna,
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naj vam povem zgodbo o Višni,
10:55
who actuallydejansko was my inspirationnavdih
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ki me je navdihnil
10:58
for startingzačetek InternationalInternational BridgesMostovi to JusticePravosodje.
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k ustanovitvi Mednarodnih mostov do pravice.
11:00
VishnaVishna was a 4-year-old- letnik boyfant when I metsrečal him
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Ko sem ga spoznala, je bil Višna štiriletni deček,
11:03
who was bornRojen in a CambodianKamboškega prisonzapor
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rojen v kamboškem zaporu
11:05
in KandalKandal ProvinceProvince. But because he was
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v provinci Kandal. A ker je bil
11:08
bornRojen in the prisonzapor, everybodyvsi lovedLjubil sem him,
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rojen v zaporu, so ga vsi imeli radi,
11:10
includingvključno z the guardsvarovala, so he was the only one
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tudi pazniki, zato je bil edini,
11:12
who was alloweddovoljeno to come
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ki je smel prihajati in odhajati
11:14
in and out of the barspalice.
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izza rešetk.
11:16
So, you know, there's barspalice. And by the time
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Veste, obstajajo rešetke.
11:18
that VishnaVishna was gettingpridobivanje biggervečje,
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In ko je Višna rasel,
11:20
whichki meanssredstva what getsdobi biggervečje? Your headglava getsdobi biggervečje.
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in kaj pomeni rasti? Glava mu je rasla.
11:22
So he would come to the first barbar,
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Prišel je do prve rešetke,
11:24
the seconddrugič barbar and then the thirdtretjino barbar,
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do druge in potem tretje,
11:26
and then really slowlypočasi movePremakni se his headglava
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potem pa je počasi obrnil glavo,
11:28
so he could fitfit throughskozi, and come back,
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da bi se lahko stlačil skozi in se vrnil,
11:30
thirdtretjino, seconddrugič, first. And he would
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skozi tretjo, drugo, prvo.
11:32
grabzgrabi my pinkiemali, because what he wanted
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In zagrabil je moj mezinec,
11:34
to do everyvsak day is he wanted to go visitobisk.
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ker je vsak dan hotel iti na obisk.
11:36
You know, he never quitečisto madeizdelane it to
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Veste, ni mogel vseh obiskati v enem dnevu,
11:38
all of them everyvsak day, but he wanted to visitobisk
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ampak hotel je obiskati
11:40
all 156 prisonerszaporniki. And I would liftdvig him,
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vseh 156 zapornikov. Jaz sem ga dvignila
11:42
and he would put his fingersprste throughskozi.
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in svoje prste je pomolil skozi.
11:44
Or if they were darktemno cellscelice, it was like ironželezo
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Če so bili v temnicah, je bilo kot bi se
11:46
corrugatedvalovita, and he would put his fingersprste throughskozi.
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jeklo upognilo in on je potisnil prste skozi.
11:48
And mostnajbolj of the prisonerszaporniki said that he was
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Večina zapornikov je povedala, da je bil
11:50
theirnjihovi greatestnajvečji joyveselje and theirnjihovi sunshinesonce, and they
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njihovo največje veselje in njihovo sonce in
11:52
lookedpogledal forwardnaprej to him. And I was like,
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veselili so se ga. Mislila sem si,
11:54
here'sTukaj je VishnaVishna. He's a 4-year-old- letnik boyfant.
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tule je Višna. Štiriletni otrok.
11:56
He was bornRojen in a prisonzapor with almostskoraj nothing,
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Rodil se je v zaporu skoraj brez vsega,
11:58
no materialmaterial goodsblago, but he had a sensesmisel of
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brez materialnih dobrin, a imel je občutek
12:00
his ownlastno heroicjunaški journeypotovanje, whichki I believe
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za svoje lastno herojsko potovanje,
12:02
we are all bornRojen into. He said,
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ki nam je, tako mislim, vsem vrojen. Dejal je:
12:04
"ProbablyVerjetno I can't do everything.
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"Verjetno ne morem narediti vsega.
12:06
But I'm one. I can do something.
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Ampak en sam sem. Lahko naredim nekaj.
12:08
And I will do the one thing that I can do."
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In naredil bom tisto, kar lahko."
12:10
So I thank you for havingimeti the propheticpreroški
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Zahvaljujem se vam za vašo preroško
12:12
imaginationdomišljijo to imaginezamislite the shapingoblikovanje
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domišljijo, da bi si zamislili
12:15
of a newnovo worldsvet with us togetherskupaj,
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oblikovanje novega sveta skupaj z nami,
12:17
and invitepovabite you into this journeypotovanje with us.
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in vabim vas na naše potovanje.
12:19
Thank you.
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Hvala vam.
12:21
(ApplauseAplavz)
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12:29
Thank you.
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Hvala.
12:31
(ApplauseAplavz)
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12:33
Thank you.
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Hvala.
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Translated by Klavdija Cernilogar
Reviewed by Lenka Tušar

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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Karen Tse - Anti-torture activist
In too many countries, it's still normal to torture prisoners for confessions and information. Karen Tse works to end that.

Why you should listen

A former public defender, Karen Tse developed an interest in the intersection of criminal law and human rights after observing Southeast Asian refugees held in a local prison without trial, often tortured to obtain "confessions." In 1994, she moved to Cambodia to train the country's first core group of public defenders. Under the auspices of the UN, she trained judges and prosecutors, and established the first arraignment court in Cambodia.

In 2000, Tse founded International Bridges to Justice to help create systemic change in criminal justice and promote basic rights of legal representation for defendants on the ground. Her foundation complements the work of witness groups, who do the equally vital work of advocacy, reports, photographs. Tse's group helps governments build new systems that respect individual rights. In IBJ's first years, she negotiated groundbreaking measures  in judicial reform with the Chinese, Vietnamese and Cambodian governments. It now works in sixteen countries, including Rwanda, Burundi and India.

She says: "I believe it is possible to end torture in my lifetime."

More profile about the speaker
Karen Tse | Speaker | TED.com