TEDNYC
Megan Phelps-Roper: I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. Here's why I left
梅根·菲尔普斯·罗伯: 我成长于威斯特布路浸信会。这是我离开的原因。
Filmed:
Readability: 4.5
9,147,153 views
生长在一群以妖魔化他人为乐趣的人中间是一种怎样的体验？梅根·菲尔普斯·罗伯与我们分享了在美国最受争议的教会中生活的细节。同时也描述了在推特上与外界的交流对话是如何帮助她离开这个教会的。在这个精彩绝伦的演讲中，她与我们分享了她对极端主义的亲身体验，同时我们也可以学到一些方法来帮助我们跨越思想的鸿沟，并与他人成为朋友。
Megan Phelps-Roper - Writer, activist
A former member of Westboro Baptist Church, Megan Phelps-Roper is now a writer and educator on topics related to extremism, bullying and empathy in dialogue. Full bio
A former member of Westboro Baptist Church, Megan Phelps-Roper is now a writer and educator on topics related to extremism, bullying and empathy in dialogue. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I was a blue-eyed,
chubby-cheeked five-year-old
chubby-cheeked five-year-old
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当我还只是一个蓝眼睛、
胖乎乎的5岁小女孩儿时，
胖乎乎的5岁小女孩儿时，
00:15
when I joined my family
on the picket line for the first time.
on the picket line for the first time.
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我第一次加入了家人的纠察队。
00:19
My mom made me leave
my dolls in the minivan.
my dolls in the minivan.
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妈妈让我把玩具娃娃留在车里。
00:22
I'd stand on a street corner
in the heavy Kansas humidity,
in the heavy Kansas humidity,
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然后和其他的亲戚一起，
00:25
surrounded by a few dozen relatives,
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站在浓雾弥漫的堪萨斯街角，
00:28
with my tiny fists clutching
a sign that I couldn't read yet:
a sign that I couldn't read yet:
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我的小手里抓着一个
我还不会读的标语：
我还不会读的标语：
00:32
"Gays are worthy of death."
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“同性恋该死！”
00:35
This was the beginning.
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而这仅仅只是个开始。
00:37
Our protests soon became
a daily occurrence
a daily occurrence
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我们的抗议很快
成为一种日常的事情，
成为一种日常的事情，
00:39
and an international phenomenon,
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遍布世界各地，
00:41
and as a member
of Westboro Baptist Church,
of Westboro Baptist Church,
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作为威斯特布路浸信会的一员，
00:43
I became a fixture
on picket lines across the country.
on picket lines across the country.
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我成为纠察队中
必不可少的一部分。
必不可少的一部分。
00:46
The end of my antigay picketing career
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而我印象中的这种
反同性恋事业和生活的结束，
00:49
and life as I knew it,
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00:50
came 20 years later,
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是在20年以后，
00:52
triggered in part by strangers on Twitter
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部分因为我在推特上
认识的陌生人，
认识的陌生人，
00:54
who showed me the power
of engaging the other.
of engaging the other.
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他们向我展示了
互动的力量。
互动的力量。
00:59
In my home,
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在我的家里，
生活完全被限定在
正义与邪恶的精神斗争当中。
正义与邪恶的精神斗争当中。
01:00
life was framed as an epic
spiritual battle between good and evil.
spiritual battle between good and evil.
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01:04
The good was my church and its members,
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正义的一方是
我的教会及其成员，
我的教会及其成员，
01:06
and the evil was everyone else.
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而其他人则都是邪恶的。
01:09
My church's antics were such
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我教会的古怪的行为
01:11
that we were constantly
at odds with the world,
at odds with the world,
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一直与这个世界大相劲庭，
01:13
and that reinforced
our otherness on a daily basis.
our otherness on a daily basis.
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这也使得我们。
在日常生活中与他人格格不入
在日常生活中与他人格格不入
01:17
"Make a difference
between the unclean and the clean,"
between the unclean and the clean,"
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“要在洁净与不洁净之间进行区分，”
01:20
the verse says,
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诗文中这样说道，
01:21
and so we did.
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然后我们就这样做了。
01:23
From baseball games to military funerals,
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从棒球比赛到军事葬礼，
01:25
we trekked across the country
with neon protest signs in hand
with neon protest signs in hand
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我们拿着花花绿绿的抗议标语
走遍全国各地，
走遍全国各地，
01:28
to tell others exactly
how "unclean" they were
how "unclean" they were
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来告诉人们他们有多么的“不洁净”，
01:31
and exactly why
they were headed for damnation.
they were headed for damnation.
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以及为什么他们将会下地狱。
01:35
This was the focus of our whole lives.
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这些是我们生活的重心。
01:38
This was the only way for me to do good
in a world that sits in Satan's lap.
in a world that sits in Satan's lap.
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在这个坠入撒旦怀抱的世界，
这是我唯一做好事的方法。
这是我唯一做好事的方法。
01:43
And like the rest of my 10 siblings,
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与我其他10个兄弟姐妹一样，
01:45
I believed what I was taught
with all my heart,
with all my heart,
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我发自内心地相信我被教导的事情，
01:47
and I pursued Westboro's agenda
with a special sort of zeal.
with a special sort of zeal.
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并怀着极高的热情
完成威斯特布路的每一次活动。
完成威斯特布路的每一次活动。
01:52
In 2009, that zeal brought me to Twitter.
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在2009年，这种
热情把我带到了推特上，
热情把我带到了推特上，
01:55
Initially, the people
I encountered on the platform
I encountered on the platform
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最初，我在这上面遇到的人
01:58
were just as hostile as I expected.
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和我想象中的一样充满了敌意。
02:00
They were the digital version
of the screaming hordes
of the screaming hordes
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他们就是那些我从小
在抗议里看到的
在抗议里看到的
02:02
I'd been seeing at protests
since I was a kid.
since I was a kid.
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叫嚷者的虚拟化身。
02:05
But in the midst of that digital brawl,
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但是在这些虚拟化的争吵中，
02:07
a strange pattern developed.
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一种奇怪的模式产生了。
02:10
Someone would arrive at my profile
with the usual rage and scorn,
with the usual rage and scorn,
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通常人们会带着愤怒和轻蔑
阅读我的资料简介，
阅读我的资料简介，
02:14
I would respond with a custom mix
of Bible verses, pop culture references
of Bible verses, pop culture references
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而我则以圣经的句子
以及流行文化向他们解释，
以及流行文化向他们解释，
02:19
and smiley faces.
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和一个笑脸。
02:21
They would be understandably
confused and caught off guard,
confused and caught off guard,
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可以理解，
他们的反应既困惑又猝不及防，
他们的反应既困惑又猝不及防，
02:25
but then a conversation would ensue.
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但是接下来就会产生对话。
02:28
And it was civil --
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而且这种对话很文明，
02:29
full of genuine curiosity on both sides.
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充满着双方真诚的好奇心。
02:32
How had the other come to such
outrageous conclusions about the world?
outrageous conclusions about the world?
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为什么另一方对这个世界
会有如此惊人的结论呢？
会有如此惊人的结论呢？
02:37
Sometimes the conversation
even bled into real life.
even bled into real life.
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有时候这些对话
甚至会渗入到真实生活中来。
甚至会渗入到真实生活中来。
02:40
People I'd sparred with on Twitter
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有些在推特上与我争论过的人，
02:41
would come out
to the picket line to see me
to the picket line to see me
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当我来到他们所在的城市抗议时，
02:44
when I protested in their city.
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会到纠察现场来见我。
02:46
A man named David was one such person.
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一个叫大卫的男人就是其中之一。
02:49
He ran a blog called "Jewlicious,"
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他开办了一个博客叫做“犹太人的”，
02:52
and after several months
of heated but friendly arguments online,
of heated but friendly arguments online,
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但在几个月的激烈而
友好的的网上辩论之后，
友好的的网上辩论之后，
02:55
he came out to see me
at a picket in New Orleans.
at a picket in New Orleans.
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他到新奥尔良的纠察现场来看我。
02:58
He brought me a Middle Eastern dessert
from Jerusalem, where he lives,
from Jerusalem, where he lives,
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他给我带来了
来自他家乡耶路撒的中东甜点，
来自他家乡耶路撒的中东甜点，
03:02
and I brought him kosher chocolate
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而我给他带了
犹太式的巧克力，
犹太式的巧克力，
03:04
and held a "God hates Jews" sign.
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还举着“上帝憎恨犹太人”的标语。
03:06
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
03:09
There was no confusion
about our positions,
about our positions,
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我们对立关系非常清楚，
03:11
but the line between friend and foe
was becoming blurred.
was becoming blurred.
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但是朋友和敌人之间的界限
却变得模糊不清了。
却变得模糊不清了。
03:14
We'd started to see each other
as human beings,
as human beings,
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我们开始看待对方为人类，
03:17
and it changed the way
we spoke to one another.
we spoke to one another.
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这也改变了我们之间的沟通方式。
03:20
It took time,
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这花了一些时间，
03:21
but eventually these conversations
planted seeds of doubt in me.
planted seeds of doubt in me.
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但是这些对话
在我心里埋下了疑惑的种子。
在我心里埋下了疑惑的种子。
03:25
My friends on Twitter took the time
to understand Westboro's doctrines,
to understand Westboro's doctrines,
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我在推特上的朋友们花时间
去试着理解威斯特布路的教义，
去试着理解威斯特布路的教义，
03:28
and in doing so,
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在这个过程中，
03:30
they were able to find inconsistencies
I'd missed my entire life.
I'd missed my entire life.
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他们能够找到我没有发现的矛盾。
03:34
Why did we advocate
the death penalty for gays
the death penalty for gays
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为什么我们倡议处死同性恋，
03:37
when Jesus said, "Let he who is
without sin cast the first stone?"
without sin cast the first stone?"
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但是耶稣却说
“让没有罪的他扔第一块石头。”
“让没有罪的他扔第一块石头。”
03:41
How could we claim to love our neighbor
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我们怎么能爱我们的邻居
03:43
while at the same time
praying for God to destroy them?
praying for God to destroy them?
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却又向上帝祷告要摧毁他们？
03:47
The truth is that the care shown to me
by these strangers on the internet
by these strangers on the internet
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那些陌生人在网上对我的友善
03:51
was itself a contradiction.
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本身就是一种矛盾。
03:54
It was growing evidence
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我逐渐意识到
03:55
that people on the other side were not
the demons I'd been led to believe.
the demons I'd been led to believe.
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在另一边的人们
并不是像我以前所知的魔鬼。
并不是像我以前所知的魔鬼。
04:00
These realizations were life-altering.
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这种认识改变了我的人生。
04:03
Once I saw that we were not
the ultimate arbiters of divine truth
the ultimate arbiters of divine truth
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一旦我知道了我们并不是
神圣真理的最终裁决人
神圣真理的最终裁决人
04:06
but flawed human beings,
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而是有着瑕疵的人类，
04:08
I couldn't pretend otherwise.
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我也无法假装下去。
04:10
I couldn't justify our actions --
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我也无法为我们的行为辩解，
04:12
especially our cruel practice
of protesting funerals
of protesting funerals
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尤其是我们那些在葬礼上抗议
04:15
and celebrating human tragedy.
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和庆祝人类悲剧的残忍行为。
04:19
These shifts in my perspective
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我这些观念上的改变
04:21
contributed to a larger erosion
of trust in my church,
of trust in my church,
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进一步导致我对教会信任的崩盘，
04:24
and eventually it made it
impossible for me to stay.
impossible for me to stay.
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最终使我没法在教会继续待下去。
04:28
In spite of overwhelming grief and terror,
I left Westboro in 2012.
I left Westboro in 2012.
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不管巨大的悲痛和恐惧，
我在2012年离开了威斯特布路浸信会，
我在2012年离开了威斯特布路浸信会，
04:34
In those days just after I left,
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在我刚离开的日子里，
04:36
the instinct to hide
was almost paralyzing.
was almost paralyzing.
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逃避的本能使我麻木。
04:40
I wanted to hide
from the judgement of my family,
from the judgement of my family,
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我想逃离我的家人的指责，
04:42
who I knew would never
speak to me again --
speak to me again --
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因为我知道他们再也不会跟我说话，
04:44
people whose thoughts and opinions
had meant everything to me.
had meant everything to me.
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他们的想法和观点
曾经是我生命中的一切。
曾经是我生命中的一切。
04:48
And I wanted to hide from the world
I'd rejected for so long --
I'd rejected for so long --
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我也想逃离这个
我一直拒绝的世界，
我一直拒绝的世界，
04:51
people who had no reason at all
to give me a second chance
to give me a second chance
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这里的人没有任何
理由再给我第二次机会
理由再给我第二次机会
04:54
after a lifetime of antagonism.
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因为我一生的敌意。
04:57
And yet, unbelievably,
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然而，难以置信的是
04:59
they did.
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他们给了我机会。
05:00
The world had access to my past
because it was all over the internet --
because it was all over the internet --
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人们可以知道我的过去
因为所一切都可以在网上查到，
因为所一切都可以在网上查到，
05:04
thousands of tweets
and hundreds of interviews,
and hundreds of interviews,
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比如说上千条的推特和上百个采访，
05:06
everything from local TV news
to "The Howard Stern Show" --
to "The Howard Stern Show" --
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从地电视新闻
到霍华德·斯特恩访谈，
到霍华德·斯特恩访谈，
05:10
but so many embraced me
with open arms anyway.
with open arms anyway.
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但是那么多人张开双臂拥抱我，
05:13
I wrote an apology
for the harm I'd caused,
for the harm I'd caused,
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我为我造成的伤害写了一封道歉信，
05:15
but I also knew that an apology
could never undo any of it.
could never undo any of it.
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但也我知道这封道歉信
什么也弥补不了。
什么也弥补不了。
05:19
All I could do was try to build a new life
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我唯一能做的就是开始新的生活，
05:22
and find a way somehow
to repair some of the damage.
to repair some of the damage.
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找到一个方式弥补一些伤害。
05:26
People had every reason
to doubt my sincerity,
to doubt my sincerity,
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人们有着足够的理由来怀疑我的诚意，
05:28
but most of them didn't.
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但大多数人并没有。
05:30
And --
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而且，
05:32
given my history,
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基于我的历史，
05:33
it was more than I could've hoped for --
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这一切都是我不敢想的，
05:35
forgiveness and the benefit of the doubt.
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原谅以及疑罪之益。
05:38
It still amazes me.
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这仍使我震惊。
05:40
I spent my first year away from home
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起初的第一年我远离了我的家人，
05:44
adrift with my younger sister,
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跟我的妹妹四处漂泊，
05:46
who had chosen to leave with me.
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她选择跟我一起离开。
05:48
We walked into an abyss,
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我们踏入了深渊，
05:50
but we were shocked to find
the light and a way forward
the light and a way forward
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但却惊奇的发现了
前方的路和光明，
前方的路和光明，
05:54
in the same communities
we'd targeted for so long.
we'd targeted for so long.
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就在我们曾一直敌对的阵营中。
05:57
David,
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大卫，
05:58
my "Jewlicious" friend from Twitter,
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我那位来自推特上的“犹太人的”朋友，
06:00
invited us to spend time among
a Jewish community in Los Angeles.
a Jewish community in Los Angeles.
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邀请我们去洛杉矶
的犹太社区生活一段时间。
的犹太社区生活一段时间。
06:04
We slept on couches in the home
of a Hasidic rabbi and his wife
of a Hasidic rabbi and his wife
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我们睡在一个犹太学者、
他的妻子和四个孩子的
他的妻子和四个孩子的
06:07
and their four kids --
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家里的沙发上，
06:09
the same rabbi that I'd protested
three years earlier
three years earlier
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这个学者就是我三年前抗议过的人，
06:12
with a sign that said,
"Your rabbi is a whore."
"Your rabbi is a whore."
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和标语牌写着：
“你们学者是个婊子。”
“你们学者是个婊子。”
06:16
We spent long hours talking
about theology and Judaism and life
about theology and Judaism and life
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我们花了很长时间讨论
神学、犹太教和人生，
神学、犹太教和人生，
06:20
while we washed dishes
in their kosher kitchen
in their kosher kitchen
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当我们在他犹太式的厨房里刷碗、
06:23
and chopped vegetables for dinner.
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切菜、准备晚餐时。
06:25
They treated us like family.
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他们像对待家人一样对待我们。
06:27
They held nothing against us,
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没有一丝敌意，
06:29
and again I was astonished.
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这又让我大吃一惊。
06:32
That period was full of turmoil,
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那段时间我的生活混乱不堪，
06:34
but one part I've returned to often
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但我经常会想起的就是
06:36
is a surprising realization
I had during that time --
I had during that time --
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在那段时间里，我突然意识到
06:40
that it was a relief and a privilege
to let go of the harsh judgments
to let go of the harsh judgments
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摒弃我对每个人本能的批判
06:44
that instinctively ran through my mind
about nearly every person I saw.
about nearly every person I saw.
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是一种解脱和快乐。
06:49
I realized that now I needed to learn.
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我意识到现在我需要学习。
06:53
I needed to listen.
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我需要倾听。
06:55
This has been at the front
of my mind lately,
of my mind lately,
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这一直浮现在我的脑海中，
06:57
because I can't help but see
in our public discourse
in our public discourse
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因为我发现公众的评论
07:00
so many of the same destructive impulses
that ruled my former church.
that ruled my former church.
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有非常多的有破坏性的冲动
主导了我之前所在的教会。
主导了我之前所在的教会。
07:05
We celebrate tolerance and diversity
more than at any other time in memory,
more than at any other time in memory,
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我们现在比以往任何时候都更
提倡容忍和多样性，
提倡容忍和多样性，
07:09
and still we grow more and more divided.
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但我们却越来越分离。
07:12
We want good things --
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我们渴望好的东西，
07:14
justice, equality,
freedom, dignity, prosperity --
freedom, dignity, prosperity --
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正义、平等、自由、尊严、繁荣，
07:18
but the path we've chosen
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但是我们选择的方式
07:19
looks so much like the one
I walked away from four years ago.
I walked away from four years ago.
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和四年前我抛弃的方式
是如此的相像。
是如此的相像。
07:23
We've broken the world into us and them,
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我们将世界分成了我们和他们，
07:26
only emerging from our bunkers long enough
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只不过因为我们两方阵营间的距离
07:28
to lob rhetorical grenades
at the other camp.
at the other camp.
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足够我们将言语攻击的手榴弹扔过去。
07:31
We write off half the country
as out-of-touch liberal elites
as out-of-touch liberal elites
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我们很随意的就把国家的
另一半划分为过时的自由主义精英，
另一半划分为过时的自由主义精英，
07:35
or racist misogynist bullies.
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或是种族歧视者和性别歧视者。
07:38
No nuance, no complexity, no humanity.
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无差别，不复杂，也无人性。
07:42
Even when someone does call for empathy
and understanding for the other side,
and understanding for the other side,
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尽管有些人呼吁同情并理解对方，
07:46
the conversation nearly always devolves
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但对话却总是围绕着
07:48
into a debate about
who deserves more empathy.
who deserves more empathy.
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关于谁更值得同情的争论。
07:51
And just as I learned to do,
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就像我学会做的，
07:53
we routinely refuse to acknowledge
the flaws in our positions
the flaws in our positions
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我们通常拒绝承认
我们立场的问题，
我们立场的问题，
07:56
or the merits in our opponent's.
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或者是对手立场的优点。
07:59
Compromise is anathema.
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妥协令人厌恶。
08:01
We even target people on our own side
when they dare to question the party line.
when they dare to question the party line.
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我们甚至把己方
敢于质疑的人当成攻击对象。
敢于质疑的人当成攻击对象。
08:06
This path has brought us cruel,
sniping, deepening polarization,
sniping, deepening polarization,
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这条路带给我们的是残忍、
毒辣和恶化的分裂，
毒辣和恶化的分裂，
08:11
and even outbreaks of violence.
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甚至是暴力事件。
08:13
I remember this path.
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我记得这条路。
08:15
It will not take us where we want to go.
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它不会带我们去我们想要的地方。
08:19
What gives me hope is that
we can do something about this.
we can do something about this.
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带给我希望的是
我们可以改变这个。
我们可以改变这个。
08:22
The good news is that it's simple,
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好消息是这很简单，
08:24
and the bad news is that it's hard.
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坏消息是这也很困难。
08:27
We have to talk and listen
to people we disagree with.
to people we disagree with.
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我们需要和观点不一致的人
交谈并倾听。
交谈并倾听。
08:32
It's hard because we often can't fathom
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而困难的是，我们很难了解
08:33
how the other side
came to their positions.
came to their positions.
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对方立场的逻辑所在。
08:36
It's hard because righteous indignation,
175
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确信己方是正确的
08:39
that sense of certainty
that ours is the right side,
that ours is the right side,
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产生了一种正义感的愤慨，
08:42
is so seductive.
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这种感觉极具诱惑性。
08:44
It's hard because it means
extending empathy and compassion
extending empathy and compassion
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之所以困难还因为
需要同情和怜悯
需要同情和怜悯
08:48
to people who show us
hostility and contempt.
hostility and contempt.
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那些轻蔑并敌对我们的人。
08:51
The impulse to respond in kind
is so tempting,
is so tempting,
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尽管想要善待他人的冲动很强烈，
08:55
but that isn't who we want to be.
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但这并不是我们真正想去做的。
08:57
We can resist.
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我们可以反抗。
08:59
And I will always be inspired to do so
by those people I encountered on Twitter,
by those people I encountered on Twitter,
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而我在推特遇到的那些朋友
总是启发我这么做，
总是启发我这么做，
09:03
apparent enemies
who became my beloved friends.
who became my beloved friends.
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他们是表面上的敌人，
实际上的挚友。
实际上的挚友。
09:07
And in the case of one particularly
understanding and generous guy,
understanding and generous guy,
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而这其中则有一个
特别善解人意和慷慨的人，
特别善解人意和慷慨的人，
09:10
my husband.
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我的丈夫。
09:12
There was nothing special
about the way I responded to him.
about the way I responded to him.
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我对待他的态度
与别人没什么不同，
与别人没什么不同，
09:16
What was special was their approach.
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特殊的是他们采取的方式。
09:20
I thought about it a lot
over the past few years
over the past few years
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我在过去几年一直考虑这个，
09:22
and I found four things
they did differently
they did differently
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我发现他们做了四件与众不同的事，
09:25
that made real conversation possible.
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使得真正的对话成为可能。
09:29
These four steps were small but powerful,
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这四件事虽小，但充满了力量，
09:31
and I do everything I can to employ them
in difficult conversations today.
in difficult conversations today.
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现在我会尽我所能
在艰难对话中使用它们。
在艰难对话中使用它们。
09:36
The first is don't assume bad intent.
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第一，不要假定他人的意图是坏的。
09:40
My friends on Twitter realized
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我在推特上的朋友发现
09:41
that even when my words
were aggressive and offensive,
were aggressive and offensive,
196
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尽管我说的话
充满侵略性和攻击性时，
充满侵略性和攻击性时，
09:44
I sincerely believed
I was doing the right thing.
I was doing the right thing.
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我都真心的觉得自己在做正确的事。
09:47
Assuming ill motives
almost instantly cuts us off
almost instantly cuts us off
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假定一个不良动机的同时，
09:50
from truly understanding
why someone does and believes as they do.
why someone does and believes as they do.
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会让我们无法真正了解
他人所做作为的原因。
他人所做作为的原因。
09:54
We forget that they're a human being
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因为我们忘记了他们也是人，
09:56
with a lifetime of experience
that shaped their mind,
that shaped their mind,
201
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他们的思想源自于生活，
09:59
and we get stuck
on that first wave of anger,
on that first wave of anger,
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而且一旦冲突出现，
对话就会停滞不前，
对话就会停滞不前，
10:02
and the conversation has a very hard time
ever moving beyond it.
ever moving beyond it.
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往后的每一步
都会走得异常艰难。
都会走得异常艰难。
10:06
But when we assume good or neutral intent,
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但当我们假定他人的意图
是好的或者是中立的，
是好的或者是中立的，
10:09
we give our minds a much stronger
framework for dialogue.
framework for dialogue.
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我们的大脑在对话中就会更活跃。
10:14
The second is ask questions.
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第二，提出疑问。
10:17
When we engage people
across ideological divides,
across ideological divides,
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当我们与他人出现
思想意识上的分歧时，
思想意识上的分歧时，
10:20
asking questions
helps us map the disconnect
helps us map the disconnect
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用疑问来帮助我们填补
10:22
between our differing points of view.
209
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由于观点分歧而产生的鸿沟。
10:25
That's important because
we can't present effective arguments
we can't present effective arguments
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这是非常重要的，因为如果
我们不了解对方的观点从何而来，
我们不了解对方的观点从何而来，
10:28
if we don't understand where
the other side is actually coming from
the other side is actually coming from
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我们就无法开展有效的讨论，
10:32
and because it gives them an opportunity
to point out flaws in our positions.
to point out flaws in our positions.
212
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同时，这也为对方提供了
发现我方观点漏洞的机会。
发现我方观点漏洞的机会。
10:37
But asking questions
serves another purpose;
serves another purpose;
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而且提出问题还有另一个目的，
10:39
it signals to someone
that they're being heard.
that they're being heard.
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它可以让对方知道你在倾听他们。
10:42
When my friends on Twitter
stopped accusing
stopped accusing
215
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当我在推特上的朋友不再指责我，
10:44
and started asking questions,
216
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1776
而是提出疑问，
10:46
I almost automatically mirrored them.
217
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我就会本能的的回应这些问题。
10:49
Their questions gave me room to speak,
218
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这些问题为我提供了说话的空间，
10:51
but they also gave me permission
to ask them questions
to ask them questions
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同时也为我提供了
提出问题的机会，
提出问题的机会，
10:55
and to truly hear their responses.
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并认真的听他们的回复。
10:57
It fundamentally changed
the dynamic of our conversation.
the dynamic of our conversation.
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这从根本上改变了
我们对话的模式。
我们对话的模式。
11:02
The third is stay calm.
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第三，保持冷静。
11:05
This takes practice and patience,
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这需要耐心和练习，
11:06
but it's powerful.
224
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但却充满了力量。
11:08
At Westboro, I learned not to care
how my manner of speaking affected others.
how my manner of speaking affected others.
225
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在威斯特布路，我学会无视
我的言行举止对他人的影响。
我的言行举止对他人的影响。
11:13
I thought my rightness
justified my rudeness --
justified my rudeness --
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我认为我正确的观点
使我的粗鲁合理，
使我的粗鲁合理，
11:16
harsh tones, raised voices,
insults, interruptions --
insults, interruptions --
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刺耳的话语、升高的嗓门、
侮辱他人、打断他人，
侮辱他人、打断他人，
11:19
but that strategy
is ultimately counterproductive.
is ultimately counterproductive.
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但这些手段最后总是
会起到反作用。
会起到反作用。
11:22
Dialing up the volume and the snark
is natural in stressful situations,
is natural in stressful situations,
229
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面临巨大的压力时，
提高声调、急躁是一种本能的反应，
提高声调、急躁是一种本能的反应，
11:26
but it tends to bring the conversation
to an unsatisfactory, explosive end.
to an unsatisfactory, explosive end.
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但这将会使对话得不到想要的结果
最后以崩盘告终。
最后以崩盘告终。
11:32
When my husband was still
just an anonymous Twitter acquaintance,
just an anonymous Twitter acquaintance,
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当我的丈夫仍只是
我的一个匿名的推特网友时，
我的一个匿名的推特网友时，
11:35
our discussions frequently
became hard and pointed,
became hard and pointed,
232
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我们之间的讨论经常针锋相对，
11:38
but we always refused to escalate.
233
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但我们总是不让这种坏局面加剧。
11:41
Instead, he would change the subject.
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相反的是，他会转换话题，
11:43
He would tell a joke or recommend a book
235
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他会讲一个笑话或者推荐一本书，
11:45
or gently excuse himself
from the conversation.
from the conversation.
236
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或者是绅士地离开对话。
11:49
We knew the discussion wasn't over,
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我们都知道讨论并没有结束，
11:51
just paused for a time
to bring us back to an even keel.
to bring us back to an even keel.
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只是停顿一会儿，
使我们找回平和的心态。
使我们找回平和的心态。
11:55
People often lament that digital
communication makes us less civil,
communication makes us less civil,
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人们总是抱怨虚拟的交流
使我们变得不那么文明，
使我们变得不那么文明，
11:58
but this is one advantage that online
conversations have over in-person ones.
conversations have over in-person ones.
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但网络对话相比面对面也有一个优势。
12:03
We have a buffer of time and space
241
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2616
当我们与他人的对话
变得极度令人沮丧时，
变得极度令人沮丧时，
12:06
between us and the people
whose ideas we find so frustrating.
whose ideas we find so frustrating.
242
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我们有缓冲的时间和空间，
12:10
We can use that buffer.
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我们可以利用这个缓冲。
12:12
Instead of lashing out,
we can pause, breathe,
we can pause, breathe,
244
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而不是猛烈抨击
我们可以暂停、深呼吸，
我们可以暂停、深呼吸，
12:16
change the subject or walk away,
245
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改变话题或者离开，
12:18
and then come back to it when we're ready.
246
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等准备好了再回来。
12:22
And finally ...
247
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最后，
12:24
make the argument.
248
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1200
提供论据。
12:28
This might seem obvious,
249
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1296
这是显而易见的，
12:29
but one side effect
of having strong beliefs
of having strong beliefs
250
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但拥有坚定信念的一个副作用就是，
12:32
is that we sometimes assume
251
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1616
有时候我们会假定
12:33
that the value of our position
is or should be obvious and self-evident,
is or should be obvious and self-evident,
252
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5096
自己的价值观和立场
应该是显而易见的，
应该是显而易见的，
12:38
that we shouldn't
have to defend our positions
have to defend our positions
253
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我们不需要解释，
12:41
because they're so clearly right and good
254
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因为很显然是如此的清晰正确，
12:44
that if someone doesn't get it,
it's their problem --
it's their problem --
255
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如果他人不明白，
那一定是他们的问题，
那一定是他们的问题，
12:46
that it's not my job to educate them.
256
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我没有义务教育他们。
12:49
But if it were that simple,
257
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但如果事情都如此简单，
12:50
we would all see things the same way.
258
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我们就不会出现任何分歧了。
12:53
As kind as my friends on Twitter were,
259
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就像我在推特上的朋友一样，
12:55
if they hadn't actually
made their arguments,
made their arguments,
260
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如果他们不提出真实的论据，
12:58
it would've been so much harder for me
to see the world in a different way.
to see the world in a different way.
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我很难能站在
另一个角度看待这个世界，
另一个角度看待这个世界，
13:02
We are all a product of our upbringing,
262
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我们都是生活环境造就出来的产物，
13:05
and our beliefs reflect our experiences.
263
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2520
我们的信仰来自于生活经历。
13:08
We can't expect others
to spontaneously change their own minds.
to spontaneously change their own minds.
264
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3520
我们不能期待他人自愿改变想法。
如果我们希望改变，
13:12
If we want change,
265
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13:14
we have to make the case for it.
266
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我们要为此付诸努力。
13:17
My friends on Twitter didn't abandon
their beliefs or their principles --
their beliefs or their principles --
267
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我在推特上的朋友并没有
放弃他们的信仰和原则，
放弃他们的信仰和原则，
13:21
only their scorn.
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他们放弃的只是轻蔑。
13:23
They channeled their
infinitely justifiable offense
infinitely justifiable offense
269
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他们带着大量合理的证据和问题，
13:26
and came to me with pointed questions
tempered with kindness and humor.
tempered with kindness and humor.
270
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还有友善和幽默来找我。
13:31
They approached me as a human being,
271
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他们以人类的方式与我沟通，
13:34
and that was more transformative
272
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1576
这远比20年的愤怒、蔑视和暴力，
13:35
than two full decades
of outrage, disdain and violence.
of outrage, disdain and violence.
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更能改变一个人。
13:40
I know that some might not have
the time or the energy or the patience
the time or the energy or the patience
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我知道有些人可能
没有时间、精力或者耐心，
没有时间、精力或者耐心，
13:44
for extensive engagement,
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去接触这么多的人，
13:45
but as difficult as it can be,
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尽管非常困难，
13:47
reaching out to someone we disagree with
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但去接触一些与我们有不同观点的人，
13:50
is an option that is
available to all of us.
available to all of us.
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是我们每个人都可以做出的选择。
13:53
And I sincerely believe
that we can do hard things,
that we can do hard things,
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而且我真心的相信
人是可以克服困难的，
人是可以克服困难的，
13:57
not just for them
but for us and our future.
but for us and our future.
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不仅仅是为了他人
也为了我们和我们的未来。
也为了我们和我们的未来。
14:00
Escalating disgust
and intractable conflict
and intractable conflict
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不断增加的厌恶和无休止的争吵
14:03
are not what we want for ourselves,
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并不是我们想要的，
14:05
or our country
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也不是我们国家想要的，
14:06
or our next generation.
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或我们下一代想要的。
14:09
My mom said something to me
a few weeks before I left Westboro,
a few weeks before I left Westboro,
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在我离开威斯特布路几周前，
14:13
when I was desperately hoping
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当时我非常渴望
14:15
there was a way
I could stay with my family.
I could stay with my family.
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我能够回到家里和家人呆在一起。
14:18
People I have loved
with every pulse of my heart
with every pulse of my heart
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自我还是一个
手里拿着我读不懂的标语，
手里拿着我读不懂的标语，
14:21
since even before I was
that chubby-cheeked five-year-old,
that chubby-cheeked five-year-old,
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蓝眼睛、胖乎乎的5岁小女孩儿时，
14:24
standing on a picket line
holding a sign I couldn't read.
holding a sign I couldn't read.
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我就全心全意的爱着他们。
14:28
She said, "You're just a human being,
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我妈妈说，“你只是一个人而已，
14:30
my dear, sweet child."
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我亲爱的宝贝。”
14:33
She was asking me to be humble --
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她告诉我做人要谦卑，
14:36
not to question
but to trust God and my elders.
but to trust God and my elders.
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不要去质疑，
而是相信上帝和长辈们。
而是相信上帝和长辈们。
14:39
But to me, she was missing
the bigger picture --
the bigger picture --
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但对我来说
她忘了更重要的一点，
她忘了更重要的一点，
14:43
that we're all just human beings.
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我们都是普通人。
14:46
That we should be guided
by that most basic fact,
by that most basic fact,
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我们都需要跟着事实走，
14:49
and approach one another
with generosity and compassion.
with generosity and compassion.
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用慷慨和激情来对待他人。
14:52
Each one of us
contributes to the communities
contributes to the communities
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我们每个人都要为造就我们的
社区、文化以及社会
社区、文化以及社会
14:54
and the cultures and the societies
that we make up.
that we make up.
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做出我们应有的贡献。
14:58
The end of this spiral of rage and blame
begins with one person
begins with one person
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结束这种愤怒和责备的轮回
只需从一个人开始，
只需从一个人开始，
15:02
who refuses to indulge
these destructive, seductive impulses.
these destructive, seductive impulses.
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就是那个拒绝破坏性
和诱惑性冲动的人，
和诱惑性冲动的人，
15:07
We just have to decide
that it's going to start with us.
that it's going to start with us.
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我们可以让自己成为那个人。
15:10
Thank you.
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谢谢大家。
15:12
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Megan Phelps-Roper - Writer, activistA former member of Westboro Baptist Church, Megan Phelps-Roper is now a writer and educator on topics related to extremism, bullying and empathy in dialogue.
Why you should listen
Megan Phelps-Roper was raised in the Westboro Baptist Church, the Topeka, Kansas church known internationally for its daily public protests against members of the LGBT community, Jews, the military and countless others. As a child, teenager and early 20-something, she participated in the picketing almost daily and pioneered the use of social media in the church. Dialogue with "enemies" online proved instrumental in her deradicalization, and she left the church and her entire way of life in November 2012. Since then she has become an advocate for people and ideas she was taught to despise -- especially the value of empathy in dialogue with people across ideological lines. She speaks widely, engaging audiences in schools, universities, faith groups, and law enforcement anti-extremism workshops. Her forthcoming memoir will be published by Farrar, Straus and Giroux.
Megan Phelps-Roper | Speaker | TED.com