TEDNYC
Megan Phelps-Roper: I grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church. Here's why I left
梅根 · 菲爾普斯 · 羅浦: 我在威斯特布路浸信會長大。這是我離開的理由。
Filmed:
Readability: 4.5
9,147,153 views
在以妖魔化別人為樂的群體中長大是什麼感覺？梅根 · 菲爾普斯 · 羅浦 (Megan Phelps-Roper) 分享在美國最受爭議的教會其生活細節，並描述了推特上的對話如何使她決定離開。在這場非凡的演講中，她分享了她極端兩極化的個人經驗，以及我們如何能成功貫穿意識形態的有效方式。
Megan Phelps-Roper - Writer, activist
A former member of Westboro Baptist Church, Megan Phelps-Roper is now a writer and educator on topics related to extremism, bullying and empathy in dialogue. Full bio
A former member of Westboro Baptist Church, Megan Phelps-Roper is now a writer and educator on topics related to extremism, bullying and empathy in dialogue. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
I was a blue-eyed,
chubby-cheeked five-year-old
chubby-cheeked five-year-old
0
960
2656
那時我是個碧眼豐頰的五歲小孩，
00:15
when I joined my family
on the picket line for the first time.
on the picket line for the first time.
1
3640
3120
第一次跟著家人一起去示威抗議。
00:19
My mom made me leave
my dolls in the minivan.
my dolls in the minivan.
2
7840
2120
我媽媽要我把洋娃娃留在休旅車上。
00:22
I'd stand on a street corner
in the heavy Kansas humidity,
in the heavy Kansas humidity,
3
10800
3096
我站在悶濕的堪薩斯街角，
00:25
surrounded by a few dozen relatives,
4
13920
2616
幾十個親戚圍繞在身邊，
00:28
with my tiny fists clutching
a sign that I couldn't read yet:
a sign that I couldn't read yet:
5
16560
3120
我的拳頭緊握著
一個我還看不懂的示威牌：
一個我還看不懂的示威牌：
00:32
"Gays are worthy of death."
6
20680
1600
「同性戀該死。」
00:35
This was the beginning.
7
23120
1200
那就是開端。
00:37
Our protests soon became
a daily occurrence
a daily occurrence
8
25040
2216
我們的抗議很快就變成日常事件，
00:39
and an international phenomenon,
9
27280
1936
以及國際注目的焦點，
00:41
and as a member
of Westboro Baptist Church,
of Westboro Baptist Church,
10
29240
2456
身為威斯特布路浸信會的一員，
00:43
I became a fixture
on picket lines across the country.
on picket lines across the country.
11
31720
3136
我成為到全國示威的固定班底。
00:46
The end of my antigay picketing career
12
34880
2336
我反同性戀的示威生涯，
00:49
and life as I knew it,
13
37240
1416
以及我熟悉的那種生活，
00:50
came 20 years later,
14
38680
1656
在 20 年後結束，
00:52
triggered in part by strangers on Twitter
15
40360
2496
有一部分是因為推特上的陌生人，
00:54
who showed me the power
of engaging the other.
of engaging the other.
16
42880
2680
他們讓我看見與他人互動的力量。
00:59
In my home,
17
47280
1216
在我家，
生活被框架成善惡間的
偉大屬靈爭戰。
偉大屬靈爭戰。
01:00
life was framed as an epic
spiritual battle between good and evil.
spiritual battle between good and evil.
18
48520
3120
01:04
The good was my church and its members,
19
52200
2576
善的是我的教會與教友，
01:06
and the evil was everyone else.
20
54800
1920
惡的則是其他所有人。
01:09
My church's antics were such
21
57880
1456
我的教會古怪的論點是，
01:11
that we were constantly
at odds with the world,
at odds with the world,
22
59360
2416
我們是不屬這世界的，
01:13
and that reinforced
our otherness on a daily basis.
our otherness on a daily basis.
23
61800
2799
而那每天都在
加深我們與別人的不同。
加深我們與別人的不同。
01:17
"Make a difference
between the unclean and the clean,"
between the unclean and the clean,"
24
65640
2616
「要把潔淨的和不潔淨的
都分別出來。」
都分別出來。」
01:20
the verse says,
25
68280
1336
經上這麼說，
01:21
and so we did.
26
69640
1336
我們就如此行。
01:23
From baseball games to military funerals,
27
71000
2136
從棒球比賽到國軍葬禮，
01:25
we trekked across the country
with neon protest signs in hand
with neon protest signs in hand
28
73160
3776
我們全國旅行尾隨在後，
舉著閃亮的示威牌，
舉著閃亮的示威牌，
01:28
to tell others exactly
how "unclean" they were
how "unclean" they were
29
76960
2976
告訴別人他們有多「不潔淨」，
01:31
and exactly why
they were headed for damnation.
they were headed for damnation.
30
79960
2720
以及為什麼他們將被定罪。
01:35
This was the focus of our whole lives.
31
83440
2360
這是我們一生的重點。
01:38
This was the only way for me to do good
in a world that sits in Satan's lap.
in a world that sits in Satan's lap.
32
86400
4120
這是我在撒但懷抱的世界中
唯一能做的善事。
唯一能做的善事。
01:43
And like the rest of my 10 siblings,
33
91360
1976
就像我其他十位手足，
01:45
I believed what I was taught
with all my heart,
with all my heart,
34
93360
2456
我由衷相信我所受的教導，
01:47
and I pursued Westboro's agenda
with a special sort of zeal.
with a special sort of zeal.
35
95840
2840
而我也以特別火熱的心
追求威斯特布路的計畫。
追求威斯特布路的計畫。
01:52
In 2009, that zeal brought me to Twitter.
36
100000
2920
2009 年，這份火熱把我帶到推特。
01:55
Initially, the people
I encountered on the platform
I encountered on the platform
37
103560
2416
一開始，我在那個平台上遇到的人
01:58
were just as hostile as I expected.
38
106000
2216
就像我預期般的不友善。
02:00
They were the digital version
of the screaming hordes
of the screaming hordes
39
108240
2496
他們就是我從小在示威裡看到的
02:02
I'd been seeing at protests
since I was a kid.
since I was a kid.
40
110760
2656
網路版叫囂者。
02:05
But in the midst of that digital brawl,
41
113440
2456
但是在這片數位世界的吶喊中，
02:07
a strange pattern developed.
42
115920
2336
發展出一個奇特的模式。
02:10
Someone would arrive at my profile
with the usual rage and scorn,
with the usual rage and scorn,
43
118280
4656
有人會在我的版上
留下憤怒與蔑視的話，
留下憤怒與蔑視的話，
02:14
I would respond with a custom mix
of Bible verses, pop culture references
of Bible verses, pop culture references
44
122960
4136
我就會用一段混合著
聖經經文、流行文化
聖經經文、流行文化
02:19
and smiley faces.
45
127120
1200
及笑臉的文字回應。
02:21
They would be understandably
confused and caught off guard,
confused and caught off guard,
46
129479
4137
你可以理解他們會覺得
有點糊塗、措手不及，
有點糊塗、措手不及，
02:25
but then a conversation would ensue.
47
133640
1880
然後對話就會隨之開展。
02:28
And it was civil --
48
136120
1256
這很文明 ──
02:29
full of genuine curiosity on both sides.
49
137400
2320
兩邊都充滿了純粹的好奇心。
02:32
How had the other come to such
outrageous conclusions about the world?
outrageous conclusions about the world?
50
140360
3760
另一邊的人怎麼會對這世界
做出這麼怪的結論？
做出這麼怪的結論？
02:37
Sometimes the conversation
even bled into real life.
even bled into real life.
51
145120
2480
有時候對話還會在真實生活上演。
02:40
People I'd sparred with on Twitter
52
148160
1656
在推特上與我爭論互罵的人
02:41
would come out
to the picket line to see me
to the picket line to see me
53
149840
2336
會到我的示威地點來看我，
02:44
when I protested in their city.
54
152200
1480
如果我正好在他們的城市裡。
02:46
A man named David was one such person.
55
154840
2040
一位名叫大衛的男士就是其中之一。
02:49
He ran a blog called "Jewlicious,"
56
157520
2440
他有個部落格叫「猶太真妙」，
02:52
and after several months
of heated but friendly arguments online,
of heated but friendly arguments online,
57
160800
3096
在數個月激烈但友善的網上辯論後，
02:55
he came out to see me
at a picket in New Orleans.
at a picket in New Orleans.
58
163920
2400
他跑出來到我在
紐奧良的示威地點看我。
紐奧良的示威地點看我。
02:58
He brought me a Middle Eastern dessert
from Jerusalem, where he lives,
from Jerusalem, where he lives,
59
166920
3656
他從住的地方耶路撒冷
帶了一種中東點心給我，
帶了一種中東點心給我，
03:02
and I brought him kosher chocolate
60
170600
2256
而我帶了一盒符合猶太教規
潔淨認證的巧克力給他，
潔淨認證的巧克力給他，
03:04
and held a "God hates Jews" sign.
61
172880
2056
手上還拿著「神恨猶太人」的標牌。
03:06
(Laughter)
62
174960
2056
（笑聲）
03:09
There was no confusion
about our positions,
about our positions,
63
177040
2056
我們的立場壁壘分明，
03:11
but the line between friend and foe
was becoming blurred.
was becoming blurred.
64
179120
3160
但是彼此之間的
敵友界線卻愈來愈模糊。
敵友界線卻愈來愈模糊。
03:14
We'd started to see each other
as human beings,
as human beings,
65
182800
2256
我們以同而為人的觀點來展開碰面，
03:17
and it changed the way
we spoke to one another.
we spoke to one another.
66
185080
2200
這也改變我們彼此交談的態度。
03:20
It took time,
67
188280
1216
這要花點時間，
03:21
but eventually these conversations
planted seeds of doubt in me.
planted seeds of doubt in me.
68
189520
3040
但最終這些對話
在我的心中種下懷疑的種子。
在我的心中種下懷疑的種子。
03:25
My friends on Twitter took the time
to understand Westboro's doctrines,
to understand Westboro's doctrines,
69
193080
3656
我在推特上的朋友花時間
了解威斯特布路的教義，
了解威斯特布路的教義，
03:28
and in doing so,
70
196760
1216
也因為這樣，
他們能找到我一輩子
都沒看到的矛盾點。
都沒看到的矛盾點。
03:30
they were able to find inconsistencies
I'd missed my entire life.
I'd missed my entire life.
71
198000
3200
03:34
Why did we advocate
the death penalty for gays
the death penalty for gays
72
202120
2896
為什麼我們強烈主張
同性戀要判死刑，
同性戀要判死刑，
03:37
when Jesus said, "Let he who is
without sin cast the first stone?"
without sin cast the first stone?"
73
205040
3560
耶穌卻說「你們中間誰是沒有罪的，
誰就可以先拿石頭打她」？
誰就可以先拿石頭打她」？
03:41
How could we claim to love our neighbor
74
209280
2456
我們怎麼能宣稱我們愛自己的鄰舍，
03:43
while at the same time
praying for God to destroy them?
praying for God to destroy them?
75
211760
2600
卻在同時禱告神摧毀他們？
03:47
The truth is that the care shown to me
by these strangers on the internet
by these strangers on the internet
76
215880
3816
真相是這些人在網路上
對我顯出的關心，
對我顯出的關心，
03:51
was itself a contradiction.
77
219720
1720
本身就是一場矛盾。
03:54
It was growing evidence
78
222200
1256
愈來愈多的證據顯示
03:55
that people on the other side were not
the demons I'd been led to believe.
the demons I'd been led to believe.
79
223480
3480
另一邊的人並不是
我被教導相信的惡魔。
我被教導相信的惡魔。
04:00
These realizations were life-altering.
80
228200
2000
這樣的領悟改變了我的人生。
04:03
Once I saw that we were not
the ultimate arbiters of divine truth
the ultimate arbiters of divine truth
81
231240
3256
一旦我看到我們並不是
神聖真理的終極審判者，
神聖真理的終極審判者，
04:06
but flawed human beings,
82
234520
1776
而是不完美的人類，
04:08
I couldn't pretend otherwise.
83
236320
1560
我再也不能假裝下去。
04:10
I couldn't justify our actions --
84
238440
2456
我再也無法把我們的行動合理化──
04:12
especially our cruel practice
of protesting funerals
of protesting funerals
85
240920
2976
特別是我們抗議葬禮的殘酷行動，
04:15
and celebrating human tragedy.
86
243920
1680
以及慶祝人類的悲劇。
04:19
These shifts in my perspective
87
247520
1456
這些自身觀點的改變，
04:21
contributed to a larger erosion
of trust in my church,
of trust in my church,
88
249000
3096
大舉侵蝕我對所屬教會的信任，
04:24
and eventually it made it
impossible for me to stay.
impossible for me to stay.
89
252120
2960
最終讓我無法再待下去。
04:28
In spite of overwhelming grief and terror,
I left Westboro in 2012.
I left Westboro in 2012.
90
256680
4279
壟罩在悲傷與害怕之下，
我於 2012 年離開威斯特布路。
我於 2012 年離開威斯特布路。
04:34
In those days just after I left,
91
262760
1896
剛離開的時候，
04:36
the instinct to hide
was almost paralyzing.
was almost paralyzing.
92
264680
3000
想要躲起來的本能幾乎要癱瘓我。
04:40
I wanted to hide
from the judgement of my family,
from the judgement of my family,
93
268240
2336
我想要從家人的批判聲中躲起來，
04:42
who I knew would never
speak to me again --
speak to me again --
94
270600
2216
我知道他們這一輩子
都不會再跟我說話 ──
都不會再跟我說話 ──
04:44
people whose thoughts and opinions
had meant everything to me.
had meant everything to me.
95
272840
2920
而他們的想法及意見
對我卻意味著一切。
對我卻意味著一切。
04:48
And I wanted to hide from the world
I'd rejected for so long --
I'd rejected for so long --
96
276280
3376
我也想從我拒絕已久的
世界中藏起來 ──
世界中藏起來 ──
04:51
people who had no reason at all
to give me a second chance
to give me a second chance
97
279680
2736
這些人沒有任何道理
要給我第二次機會，
要給我第二次機會，
04:54
after a lifetime of antagonism.
98
282440
1960
因我們已經敵對了這麼久。
04:57
And yet, unbelievably,
99
285600
1576
然而，不可置信的是，
04:59
they did.
100
287200
1456
他們給了。
05:00
The world had access to my past
because it was all over the internet --
because it was all over the internet --
101
288680
3376
這個世界看得到我的過去，
因為網路上記錄了所有──
因為網路上記錄了所有──
05:04
thousands of tweets
and hundreds of interviews,
and hundreds of interviews,
102
292080
2376
成千上萬的推文，數以百計的訪談，
05:06
everything from local TV news
to "The Howard Stern Show" --
to "The Howard Stern Show" --
103
294480
3496
從地方電視台到
全國的「霍華史登秀」──
全國的「霍華史登秀」──
05:10
but so many embraced me
with open arms anyway.
with open arms anyway.
104
298000
2600
卻還是有這麼多人張開膀臂擁抱我。
05:13
I wrote an apology
for the harm I'd caused,
for the harm I'd caused,
105
301800
2096
我寫了篇文章為我造成的傷害賠罪，
05:15
but I also knew that an apology
could never undo any of it.
could never undo any of it.
106
303920
3440
但是我也知道一篇道歉文
並不能消彌什麼。
並不能消彌什麼。
05:19
All I could do was try to build a new life
107
307960
2256
我能做的就是試著建立新生活，
05:22
and find a way somehow
to repair some of the damage.
to repair some of the damage.
108
310240
3400
找個方法彌補過去的傷害。
05:26
People had every reason
to doubt my sincerity,
to doubt my sincerity,
109
314560
2376
他們有理由懷疑我的誠意，
05:28
but most of them didn't.
110
316960
1240
但是大部分的人都沒有懷疑。
05:30
And --
111
318880
1200
而且，
05:32
given my history,
112
320680
1216
考慮到我的歷史，
05:33
it was more than I could've hoped for --
113
321920
1936
這真的超過我所求的 ──
05:35
forgiveness and the benefit of the doubt.
114
323880
2456
饒恕與寧願相信我。
05:38
It still amazes me.
115
326360
1240
這仍然讓我驚訝。
05:40
I spent my first year away from home
116
328520
2560
我離家的第一年
05:44
adrift with my younger sister,
117
332480
1696
和我的妹妹四處流浪，
05:46
who had chosen to leave with me.
118
334200
1560
她選擇跟我一起離開。
05:48
We walked into an abyss,
119
336800
1536
我們走進一個黑暗的深淵，
05:50
but we were shocked to find
the light and a way forward
the light and a way forward
120
338360
3696
但是我們很驚訝地發現
帶領我們前進的光及道路，
帶領我們前進的光及道路，
05:54
in the same communities
we'd targeted for so long.
we'd targeted for so long.
121
342080
2600
竟然來自我們許久以來
一直攻擊的同一個社群。
一直攻擊的同一個社群。
05:57
David,
122
345600
1216
大衛，
我在推特上交到的妙猶太朋友，
05:58
my "Jewlicious" friend from Twitter,
123
346840
1896
06:00
invited us to spend time among
a Jewish community in Los Angeles.
a Jewish community in Los Angeles.
124
348760
3736
邀請我們待在一個
位於洛杉磯的猶太社區。
位於洛杉磯的猶太社區。
06:04
We slept on couches in the home
of a Hasidic rabbi and his wife
of a Hasidic rabbi and his wife
125
352520
3216
我們睡在一對哈西迪派
猶太拉比夫婦家的沙發上，
猶太拉比夫婦家的沙發上，
06:07
and their four kids --
126
355760
1200
他們有四個小孩 ──
06:09
the same rabbi that I'd protested
three years earlier
three years earlier
127
357600
2816
三年前我曾對這位拉比抗議過，
06:12
with a sign that said,
"Your rabbi is a whore."
"Your rabbi is a whore."
128
360440
2200
我舉牌說「你們的拉比是娼妓！」
06:16
We spent long hours talking
about theology and Judaism and life
about theology and Judaism and life
129
364920
3936
我們花了好長的時間談論
猶太教的神學及生活，
猶太教的神學及生活，
06:20
while we washed dishes
in their kosher kitchen
in their kosher kitchen
130
368880
2216
同時我們也在他們符合
猶太教義的潔淨廚房洗碗，
猶太教義的潔淨廚房洗碗，
06:23
and chopped vegetables for dinner.
131
371120
1720
切菜準備晚餐。
06:25
They treated us like family.
132
373600
1560
他們待我們就像家人。
06:27
They held nothing against us,
133
375640
2096
他們並不責難我們，
06:29
and again I was astonished.
134
377760
1840
我再次感到驚訝。
06:32
That period was full of turmoil,
135
380760
1696
那段時間充滿了混亂，
06:34
but one part I've returned to often
136
382480
2296
但是我常常提到的一點，
06:36
is a surprising realization
I had during that time --
I had during that time --
137
384800
2880
是在那段期間意外領悟到的一件事：
06:40
that it was a relief and a privilege
to let go of the harsh judgments
to let go of the harsh judgments
138
388520
4256
那是一種解脫及恩典，
我再也不用對
幾乎我看到的每一個人，
幾乎我看到的每一個人，
06:44
that instinctively ran through my mind
about nearly every person I saw.
about nearly every person I saw.
139
392800
3920
直覺地從心中發出嚴厲批判。
06:49
I realized that now I needed to learn.
140
397680
2720
我領悟到我需要學習。
06:53
I needed to listen.
141
401040
1240
我需要傾聽。
06:55
This has been at the front
of my mind lately,
of my mind lately,
142
403520
2136
最近這件事一直在我的心中掛懷，
06:57
because I can't help but see
in our public discourse
in our public discourse
143
405680
2936
因為我實在不能不看見
在公眾演講中，
在公眾演講中，
07:00
so many of the same destructive impulses
that ruled my former church.
that ruled my former church.
144
408640
4000
充斥著太多破壞性的衝動行事，
就像我的前教會一樣。
就像我的前教會一樣。
07:05
We celebrate tolerance and diversity
more than at any other time in memory,
more than at any other time in memory,
145
413560
3936
我們從沒有像現在一樣
如此歌頌著包容心與多樣化，
如此歌頌著包容心與多樣化，
07:09
and still we grow more and more divided.
146
417520
2240
然而我們卻愈來愈分裂。
07:12
We want good things --
147
420440
1896
我們想要好的東西 ──
07:14
justice, equality,
freedom, dignity, prosperity --
freedom, dignity, prosperity --
148
422360
3616
正義、平等、自由、尊嚴、繁榮──
07:18
but the path we've chosen
149
426000
1296
然而我們選擇的路徑
07:19
looks so much like the one
I walked away from four years ago.
I walked away from four years ago.
150
427320
3120
卻更像我在四年前
所選擇離開的道路。
所選擇離開的道路。
07:23
We've broken the world into us and them,
151
431360
3136
我們把世界分成我們與他們，
07:26
only emerging from our bunkers long enough
152
434520
2056
只有要對另一個陣營進行
言語的轟炸攻擊時，
言語的轟炸攻擊時，
07:28
to lob rhetorical grenades
at the other camp.
at the other camp.
153
436600
2240
才會從自己的地堡中探出身來。
07:31
We write off half the country
as out-of-touch liberal elites
as out-of-touch liberal elites
154
439840
3696
我們大筆一揮，就把一半的國家寫成
不知民間疾苦的自由派菁英，
不知民間疾苦的自由派菁英，
07:35
or racist misogynist bullies.
155
443560
2160
或是有種族偏見、厭惡女性的霸凌。
07:38
No nuance, no complexity, no humanity.
156
446200
3400
沒有細分、沒有複雜性、沒有人性。
07:42
Even when someone does call for empathy
and understanding for the other side,
and understanding for the other side,
157
450480
3816
即使有人喊出對另一方
要有同理心及了解，
要有同理心及了解，
07:46
the conversation nearly always devolves
158
454320
1896
對話幾乎都會變成
07:48
into a debate about
who deserves more empathy.
who deserves more empathy.
159
456240
2240
辯論誰該得到更多同理心。
07:51
And just as I learned to do,
160
459720
1496
就像我學到的，
07:53
we routinely refuse to acknowledge
the flaws in our positions
the flaws in our positions
161
461240
3536
我們也一直拒絕承認自己的不完美，
07:56
or the merits in our opponent's.
162
464800
1640
或是敵對方的優點。
07:59
Compromise is anathema.
163
467200
1800
妥協該受咒詛。
08:01
We even target people on our own side
when they dare to question the party line.
when they dare to question the party line.
164
469600
4120
我們甚至攻擊自己人，
因為他們膽敢質問政策路線。
因為他們膽敢質問政策路線。
08:06
This path has brought us cruel,
sniping, deepening polarization,
sniping, deepening polarization,
165
474800
4496
這條路為我們帶來殘酷、
抨擊，加深兩極化，
抨擊，加深兩極化，
08:11
and even outbreaks of violence.
166
479320
1600
甚至暴力相向。
08:13
I remember this path.
167
481560
2056
我還記得這條路。
08:15
It will not take us where we want to go.
168
483640
2160
它不會帶我們達到目的。
08:19
What gives me hope is that
we can do something about this.
we can do something about this.
169
487080
2720
我之所以還懷抱希望，
是因為我們能為之做點什麼。
是因為我們能為之做點什麼。
08:22
The good news is that it's simple,
170
490560
1640
好消息是它很簡單，
08:24
and the bad news is that it's hard.
171
492840
1760
壞消息是它很難。
08:27
We have to talk and listen
to people we disagree with.
to people we disagree with.
172
495200
3960
我們必須與意見相左的人
對話及聆聽。
對話及聆聽。
08:32
It's hard because we often can't fathom
173
500040
1896
這很難，因為我們經常無法了解
08:33
how the other side
came to their positions.
came to their positions.
174
501960
2040
另一邊的人怎麼會有這樣的立場。
08:36
It's hard because righteous indignation,
175
504800
2576
這很難，因為義憤填膺，
08:39
that sense of certainty
that ours is the right side,
that ours is the right side,
176
507400
3176
我們的自以為是，
08:42
is so seductive.
177
510600
1559
是如此難以抗拒。
08:44
It's hard because it means
extending empathy and compassion
extending empathy and compassion
178
512919
3337
這很難，因為這意味著
我們要展示出同理與同情，
我們要展示出同理與同情，
08:48
to people who show us
hostility and contempt.
hostility and contempt.
179
516280
2519
對象卻是向自己顯現
敵意和蔑視的人。
敵意和蔑視的人。
08:51
The impulse to respond in kind
is so tempting,
is so tempting,
180
519600
2959
要顯露善意的衝動是如此誘人，
08:55
but that isn't who we want to be.
181
523360
1936
然而我們不想成為那樣的人。
08:57
We can resist.
182
525320
1656
我們可以抗拒。
08:59
And I will always be inspired to do so
by those people I encountered on Twitter,
by those people I encountered on Twitter,
183
527000
4456
在推特上所遇到的人
總是啟發著我這麼做，
總是啟發著我這麼做，
09:03
apparent enemies
who became my beloved friends.
who became my beloved friends.
184
531480
3696
表面上看似敵對的人
卻變成我心愛的朋友。
卻變成我心愛的朋友。
09:07
And in the case of one particularly
understanding and generous guy,
understanding and generous guy,
185
535200
3416
有一位特別諒解又很寬大的人，
09:10
my husband.
186
538640
1200
就是我的丈夫。
09:12
There was nothing special
about the way I responded to him.
about the way I responded to him.
187
540800
2840
我回應他的方式一點都不特別。
09:16
What was special was their approach.
188
544960
2240
特別的是他們對待我的方法。
09:20
I thought about it a lot
over the past few years
over the past few years
189
548080
2576
過去幾年我常常在想這件事，
09:22
and I found four things
they did differently
they did differently
190
550680
2856
我發現有四件事他們做得很不一樣，
09:25
that made real conversation possible.
191
553560
2080
讓真正的對話成為可能。
09:29
These four steps were small but powerful,
192
557000
2336
這四個步驟很小，但是很有力，
09:31
and I do everything I can to employ them
in difficult conversations today.
in difficult conversations today.
193
559360
3760
在現今棘手困難的對談中，
我盡其所能地努力實踐它們。
我盡其所能地努力實踐它們。
09:36
The first is don't assume bad intent.
194
564240
3200
第一就是不要假設對方的意圖不好。
09:40
My friends on Twitter realized
195
568240
1456
我在推特上的朋友明白
09:41
that even when my words
were aggressive and offensive,
were aggressive and offensive,
196
569720
2936
即使我的詞語激進、帶著攻擊性，
09:44
I sincerely believed
I was doing the right thing.
I was doing the right thing.
197
572680
2896
我是真的相信我在做對的事。
09:47
Assuming ill motives
almost instantly cuts us off
almost instantly cuts us off
198
575600
2976
假設動機不良幾乎立即切斷機會
09:50
from truly understanding
why someone does and believes as they do.
why someone does and believes as they do.
199
578600
4296
去了解他們為什麼相信自己所為。
09:54
We forget that they're a human being
200
582920
1736
我們忘記了他們也是人，
09:56
with a lifetime of experience
that shaped their mind,
that shaped their mind,
201
584680
2976
他們一生的經歷塑造了他們的想法，
09:59
and we get stuck
on that first wave of anger,
on that first wave of anger,
202
587680
2696
而我們卻卡在自己第一波的憤怒中，
10:02
and the conversation has a very hard time
ever moving beyond it.
ever moving beyond it.
203
590400
3600
使彼此的對話很難超過這種反應。
10:06
But when we assume good or neutral intent,
204
594800
2656
但是如果我們假設他們的
意圖良善或是中立，
意圖良善或是中立，
10:09
we give our minds a much stronger
framework for dialogue.
framework for dialogue.
205
597480
3000
我們的頭腦就架構出
更適合對話的方式。
更適合對話的方式。
10:14
The second is ask questions.
206
602160
2840
第二是要問問題。
10:17
When we engage people
across ideological divides,
across ideological divides,
207
605760
2576
與意識形態相左的人交手時，
10:20
asking questions
helps us map the disconnect
helps us map the disconnect
208
608360
2456
問問題會幫助我們
10:22
between our differing points of view.
209
610840
1800
把兩方的歧見連起來。
10:25
That's important because
we can't present effective arguments
we can't present effective arguments
210
613200
2896
這很重要，因為如果我們
不了解對方真正的來意，
不了解對方真正的來意，
10:28
if we don't understand where
the other side is actually coming from
the other side is actually coming from
211
616120
3360
我們就無法提出有效的論據；
10:32
and because it gives them an opportunity
to point out flaws in our positions.
to point out flaws in our positions.
212
620320
4120
而且這也讓他們有機會指出
我們立場的缺陷之處。
我們立場的缺陷之處。
10:37
But asking questions
serves another purpose;
serves another purpose;
213
625080
2456
但是問問題還有另一個目的：
10:39
it signals to someone
that they're being heard.
that they're being heard.
214
627560
2480
它告訴對方我們在聽。
10:42
When my friends on Twitter
stopped accusing
stopped accusing
215
630760
2136
我在推特上的朋友停止控訴
10:44
and started asking questions,
216
632920
1776
並開始問問題後，
10:46
I almost automatically mirrored them.
217
634720
2240
我幾乎自動模仿他們。
10:49
Their questions gave me room to speak,
218
637760
1856
他們的問題讓我有空間說話，
10:51
but they also gave me permission
to ask them questions
to ask them questions
219
639640
3376
但是他們也允許我對他們問問題，
10:55
and to truly hear their responses.
220
643040
2160
也很認真地聽他們的反應。
10:57
It fundamentally changed
the dynamic of our conversation.
the dynamic of our conversation.
221
645880
2800
這從根本改變了我們對話的動態。
11:02
The third is stay calm.
222
650320
1800
第三是保持冷靜。
11:05
This takes practice and patience,
223
653000
1816
這要練習及耐心，
11:06
but it's powerful.
224
654840
1320
但這很有力。
11:08
At Westboro, I learned not to care
how my manner of speaking affected others.
how my manner of speaking affected others.
225
656720
4296
在威斯特布路，我學會不去在乎
自己的言行對他人的影響。
自己的言行對他人的影響。
11:13
I thought my rightness
justified my rudeness --
justified my rudeness --
226
661040
3056
我想我的自以為義合理化了無禮──
11:16
harsh tones, raised voices,
insults, interruptions --
insults, interruptions --
227
664120
3736
尖刻的語氣、提高的聲量、
侮辱、插嘴 ──
侮辱、插嘴 ──
11:19
but that strategy
is ultimately counterproductive.
is ultimately counterproductive.
228
667880
2440
但是這種策略最終適得其反。
11:22
Dialing up the volume and the snark
is natural in stressful situations,
is natural in stressful situations,
229
670960
3776
在壓力大的情況下我們很自然
會提高聲量及加重尖酸話語，
會提高聲量及加重尖酸話語，
11:26
but it tends to bring the conversation
to an unsatisfactory, explosive end.
to an unsatisfactory, explosive end.
230
674760
5000
但這會使對話以不滿及暴躁結束。
11:32
When my husband was still
just an anonymous Twitter acquaintance,
just an anonymous Twitter acquaintance,
231
680600
3256
當我的丈夫在推特上
還是個匿名的網友時，
還是個匿名的網友時，
11:35
our discussions frequently
became hard and pointed,
became hard and pointed,
232
683880
2856
我們的討論經常變的嚴酷尖銳，
11:38
but we always refused to escalate.
233
686760
1960
但是我們總是拒絕升高戰事。
11:41
Instead, he would change the subject.
234
689360
1936
他反而會改變話題。
11:43
He would tell a joke or recommend a book
235
691320
2216
他會說個笑話或推薦一本書，
11:45
or gently excuse himself
from the conversation.
from the conversation.
236
693560
3200
或是很委婉的找個理由離開對話。
11:49
We knew the discussion wasn't over,
237
697560
1856
我們知道討論還沒結束，
11:51
just paused for a time
to bring us back to an even keel.
to bring us back to an even keel.
238
699440
3320
只是暫停一下，讓我們回穩。
11:55
People often lament that digital
communication makes us less civil,
communication makes us less civil,
239
703600
3176
大家常常悲嘆數位溝通
讓我們變得不文明，
讓我們變得不文明，
11:58
but this is one advantage that online
conversations have over in-person ones.
conversations have over in-person ones.
240
706800
4240
但是這也是網路對話
相較於面對面的好處之一，
相較於面對面的好處之一，
12:03
We have a buffer of time and space
241
711680
2616
當我們發現對方提出
令我們沮喪的想法和觀點時，
令我們沮喪的想法和觀點時，
12:06
between us and the people
whose ideas we find so frustrating.
whose ideas we find so frustrating.
242
714320
3320
我們會有緩衝的時間與空間，
12:10
We can use that buffer.
243
718280
2056
我們可以運用那種緩衝。
12:12
Instead of lashing out,
we can pause, breathe,
we can pause, breathe,
244
720360
3696
與其破口大罵，
我們可以暫停、喘口氣，
我們可以暫停、喘口氣，
12:16
change the subject or walk away,
245
724080
2176
改變話題或離開，
12:18
and then come back to it when we're ready.
246
726280
2440
然後在我們覺得準備好時回來。
12:22
And finally ...
247
730200
1200
最後 ──
12:24
make the argument.
248
732760
1200
還是要提出論證。
12:28
This might seem obvious,
249
736120
1296
這聽起來理所當然，
12:29
but one side effect
of having strong beliefs
of having strong beliefs
250
737440
2576
但是有強烈信念的副作用之一，
12:32
is that we sometimes assume
251
740040
1616
就是我們有時候假設
12:33
that the value of our position
is or should be obvious and self-evident,
is or should be obvious and self-evident,
252
741680
5096
我們所持立場的價值觀，
是或應該是顯而易見、不言而喻，
是或應該是顯而易見、不言而喻，
12:38
that we shouldn't
have to defend our positions
have to defend our positions
253
746800
2216
我們不需要為自己的立場辯護，
12:41
because they're so clearly right and good
254
749040
3096
因為它們是如此地正確與良善，
12:44
that if someone doesn't get it,
it's their problem --
it's their problem --
255
752160
2576
如果有人不懂，那是他們的問題──
12:46
that it's not my job to educate them.
256
754760
1920
那不是我的職責去教育他們。
12:49
But if it were that simple,
257
757560
1336
但是如果事情有那麼簡單，
12:50
we would all see things the same way.
258
758920
1800
我們早就用同樣的方法看事情了。
12:53
As kind as my friends on Twitter were,
259
761360
2456
就像我在推特上的益友一樣，
12:55
if they hadn't actually
made their arguments,
made their arguments,
260
763840
2376
如果他們沒有真的提出論據，
12:58
it would've been so much harder for me
to see the world in a different way.
to see the world in a different way.
261
766240
3560
對我而言用不同的眼光
看世界會更加困難。
看世界會更加困難。
13:02
We are all a product of our upbringing,
262
770960
2416
我們都是教養出來的產物，
13:05
and our beliefs reflect our experiences.
263
773400
2520
我們的信念反映了自己的經歷。
13:08
We can't expect others
to spontaneously change their own minds.
to spontaneously change their own minds.
264
776560
3520
我們不能期望別人能自動改變想法。
13:12
If we want change,
265
780560
1416
如果我們想改變，
13:14
we have to make the case for it.
266
782000
1720
我們必須為之提出解釋。
13:17
My friends on Twitter didn't abandon
their beliefs or their principles --
their beliefs or their principles --
267
785160
4056
我在推特上的朋友
沒有放棄自己的信念或原則 ──
沒有放棄自己的信念或原則 ──
13:21
only their scorn.
268
789240
1200
只有放棄他們的責難。
13:23
They channeled their
infinitely justifiable offense
infinitely justifiable offense
269
791240
3616
他們將自己極其正當的攻擊，
13:26
and came to me with pointed questions
tempered with kindness and humor.
tempered with kindness and humor.
270
794880
4120
化作帶著好心及幽默的
尖銳問題來問我。
尖銳問題來問我。
13:31
They approached me as a human being,
271
799880
2096
他們以人本的角度與我溝通，
13:34
and that was more transformative
272
802000
1576
這樣的改變力量
13:35
than two full decades
of outrage, disdain and violence.
of outrage, disdain and violence.
273
803600
4240
比整整二十年的憤怒、
鄙視和暴力更大。
鄙視和暴力更大。
13:40
I know that some might not have
the time or the energy or the patience
the time or the energy or the patience
274
808760
3776
我知道有些人可能沒有
時間或精力或耐心
時間或精力或耐心
13:44
for extensive engagement,
275
812560
1256
更廣泛地去參與，
13:45
but as difficult as it can be,
276
813840
2056
但是無論多困難，
13:47
reaching out to someone we disagree with
277
815920
2496
與持反對意見的人接觸，
13:50
is an option that is
available to all of us.
available to all of us.
278
818440
2280
是我們所有人都能做的事。
13:53
And I sincerely believe
that we can do hard things,
that we can do hard things,
279
821280
3816
我衷心相信我們能做困難的事，
13:57
not just for them
but for us and our future.
but for us and our future.
280
825120
2640
不只是為了他們，
也為了我們及未來。
也為了我們及未來。
14:00
Escalating disgust
and intractable conflict
and intractable conflict
281
828480
2496
加劇厭惡感及棘手的衝突
14:03
are not what we want for ourselves,
282
831000
2136
不是我們想要的，
14:05
or our country
283
833160
1256
也不是我們國家
14:06
or our next generation.
284
834440
1200
或下一代想要的。
14:09
My mom said something to me
a few weeks before I left Westboro,
a few weeks before I left Westboro,
285
837520
4296
在我離開威斯特布路的幾星期前，
媽媽曾對我說過一些事，
媽媽曾對我說過一些事，
14:13
when I was desperately hoping
286
841840
1416
當時我死命盼望
14:15
there was a way
I could stay with my family.
I could stay with my family.
287
843280
2080
我還有辦法能留在家裡。
14:18
People I have loved
with every pulse of my heart
with every pulse of my heart
288
846920
2376
他們是我真心全意摯愛的家人，
14:21
since even before I was
that chubby-cheeked five-year-old,
that chubby-cheeked five-year-old,
289
849320
3336
在我是那個碧眼豐頰的五歲小孩，
14:24
standing on a picket line
holding a sign I couldn't read.
holding a sign I couldn't read.
290
852680
2680
拿著我還看不懂的牌子
站著示威前就如此了。
站著示威前就如此了。
14:28
She said, "You're just a human being,
291
856160
2656
她說：「妳只是個人，
14:30
my dear, sweet child."
292
858840
1680
我可愛的乖孩子。」
14:33
She was asking me to be humble --
293
861760
2256
她要我謙卑 ──
14:36
not to question
but to trust God and my elders.
but to trust God and my elders.
294
864040
3120
不要質問，只要相信神及長老就好。
14:39
But to me, she was missing
the bigger picture --
the bigger picture --
295
867960
3536
但是對我而言，她只是以管窺天──
14:43
that we're all just human beings.
296
871520
1960
她沒看到我們全都只是人。
14:46
That we should be guided
by that most basic fact,
by that most basic fact,
297
874120
2936
她沒看到我們應該
受那最基本的事實引導，
受那最基本的事實引導，
14:49
and approach one another
with generosity and compassion.
with generosity and compassion.
298
877080
3216
用慷慨和同情的態度接觸彼此。
14:52
Each one of us
contributes to the communities
contributes to the communities
299
880320
2296
我們每一個人都對我們構成的社區、
14:54
and the cultures and the societies
that we make up.
that we make up.
300
882640
2560
文化及社會有貢獻。
14:58
The end of this spiral of rage and blame
begins with one person
begins with one person
301
886000
4656
要終結這急遽上升的憤怒及責難，
要從某個人願意
15:02
who refuses to indulge
these destructive, seductive impulses.
these destructive, seductive impulses.
302
890680
4760
拒絕沉迷在這充滿破壞性
卻誘人的衝動開始。
卻誘人的衝動開始。
15:07
We just have to decide
that it's going to start with us.
that it's going to start with us.
303
895920
3016
我們只需要決定這要由自己做起。
15:10
Thank you.
304
898960
1216
謝謝！
15:12
(Applause)
305
900200
4310
（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Megan Phelps-Roper - Writer, activistA former member of Westboro Baptist Church, Megan Phelps-Roper is now a writer and educator on topics related to extremism, bullying and empathy in dialogue.
Why you should listen
Megan Phelps-Roper was raised in the Westboro Baptist Church, the Topeka, Kansas church known internationally for its daily public protests against members of the LGBT community, Jews, the military and countless others. As a child, teenager and early 20-something, she participated in the picketing almost daily and pioneered the use of social media in the church. Dialogue with "enemies" online proved instrumental in her deradicalization, and she left the church and her entire way of life in November 2012. Since then she has become an advocate for people and ideas she was taught to despise -- especially the value of empathy in dialogue with people across ideological lines. She speaks widely, engaging audiences in schools, universities, faith groups, and law enforcement anti-extremism workshops. Her forthcoming memoir will be published by Farrar, Straus and Giroux.
Megan Phelps-Roper | Speaker | TED.com