TEDSalon 2006
Robert Thurman: We can be Buddhas
Bob Thurman說：人人皆可成佛
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在高速網路架構的世界上，我們隨時隨地在接收資訊。佛教學者Bob Thurman認為，這種巨大的啟蒙，正是我們邁向佛性的第一步。
Robert Thurman - Buddhist scholar
The first American to be ordained a Tibetan Monk by the Dalai Lama, Robert A.F. Thurman is a scholar, author and tireless proponent of peace. Full bio
The first American to be ordained a Tibetan Monk by the Dalai Lama, Robert A.F. Thurman is a scholar, author and tireless proponent of peace. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:31
Thank you.
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謝謝。
00:35
And I feel like this whole evening has been very amazing to me.
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今晚我一直都覺得殊勝愉悅。
00:39
I feel it's sort of like the Vimalakirti Sutra,
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我想起《維摩詰經》(Vimalakirti Sutra)的經文，
00:43
an ancient work from ancient India
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這部經書是古印度的作品，
00:46
in which the Buddha appears at the beginning and a whole bunch of people
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開頭述說佛陀路經一座名為Vaisali的大城，
00:52
come to see him from the biggest city in the area, Vaishali,
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許多人趕來瞻仰他，
00:56
and they bring some sort of jeweled parasols to make an offering to him.
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並帶來了鑲著寶石的華麗陽傘要供養他。
01:00
All the young people, actually, from the city.
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城裡所有的年輕人都來了，
01:03
The old fogeys don't come because they're mad at Buddha,
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但是年長的人卻沒來，因為他們對佛陀產生了憎恨之心。
01:08
because when he came to their city he accepted --
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佛陀每到一個地方，
01:10
he always accepts the first invitation that comes to him, from whoever it is,
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都接受第一個人的供養，不問階級，
01:14
and the local geisha, a movie-star sort of person,
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而這裡第一個邀請他的人是位「藝妓」，大約是像電影明星的人吧！
01:18
raced the elders of the city in a chariot and invited him first.
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他的座車超越了城裡的長者，捷足先登請佛陀接受供養。
01:21
So he was hanging out with the movie star, and of course they were grumbling:
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於是佛陀便到這位明星的家裡去，而鄉紳們開始發起了牢騷。
01:25
"He's supposed to be religious and all this.
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「還以為佛陀有多清淨呢！
01:27
What's he doing over there at Amrapali's house with all his 500 monks,"
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居然帶著五百人的僧團到Amrpali這樣的人家裡去。」
01:32
and so on. They were all grumbling, and so they boycotted him.
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抱怨聲此起彼落，接著他們聯合起來抵制佛陀，
01:36
They wouldn't go listen to him.
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拒絕聆聽佛陀講經說法。
01:37
But the young people all came.
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但是年輕人都來參加了，
01:39
And they brought this kind of a jeweled parasol, and they put it on the ground.
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帶著華麗的寶傘，供在地上向佛陀致意。
01:43
And as soon as they had laid all these,
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就在此時，
01:45
all their big stack of these jeweled parasols that they used to carry in ancient India,
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對古印度人來說再尋常不過的，地上成堆的寶石陽傘，
01:50
he performed a kind of special effect which made it into a giant planetarium,
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被佛陀的神通力變成了巨大的星象儀，
01:57
the wonder of the universe. Everyone looked in that, and they saw in there
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浩瀚神妙的宇宙呈現在眾人眼前。一眼望去，
02:00
the total interconnectedness of all life in all universes.
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世上眾生彼此都緊密相連，這個世界和其他眾多的世界也都連結在一起。
02:04
And of course, in the Buddhist cosmos there are millions and billions of planets
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佛陀的宇宙觀認為，像地球一樣有人類生存的星球
02:08
with human life on it,
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多不勝數，
02:10
and enlightened beings can see the life on all the other planets.
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參透真理，便有神通可以看見其他星球上的生命。
02:13
So they don't -- when they look out and they see those lights that you showed
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所以他們仰望星空時，
02:16
in the sky -- they don't just see sort of pieces of matter burning
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不只看到宇宙的物質碎片、岩石、
02:20
or rocks or flames or gases exploding.
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爆炸的火花及氣體，
02:24
They actually see landscapes and human beings
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更看見了星球上的風景、人類、
02:26
and gods and dragons and serpent beings and goddesses and things like that.
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神、龍、蛇，等等的。
02:32
He made that special effect at the beginning
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他展現的神通讓聽眾開始思考
02:34
to get everyone to think about interconnection
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「生命共同體」這件事，
02:37
and interconnectedness and how everything in life was totally interconnected.
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世上的事、物、因緣，其實是環環相扣的。
02:42
And then Leilei -- I know his other name -- told us about interconnection,
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然後，Leilei－這是他（佛陀）的另一個名字－也告訴我們人類彼此的關係是很密切的，
02:50
and how we're all totally interconnected here,
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我們的命運緊緊相連，
02:53
and how we've all known each other. And of course in the Buddhist universe,
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為什麼我們會認識彼此。當然，在佛陀的宇宙裡，
02:56
we've already done this already billions of times in many, many lifetimes in the past.
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我們已經討論過這個問題千百萬次，在無數個前世。
03:01
And I didn't give the talk always. You did, and we had to watch you, and so forth.
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前世的我不常說這樣的話，但你說過，我們曾看著你發表演說…如此這般。
03:10
And we're all still trying to, I guess we're all trying to become TEDsters,
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而現在我們仍然在嘗試，嗯，也許我們都想成為TED的傳教士，
03:14
if that's a modern form of enlightenment.
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如果TED算是一種新的啟蒙方式的話。
03:18
I guess so. Because in a way, if a TEDster relates to all the interconnectedness
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我想是的。如果一位TED成員能將理念藉由互通的網路、電腦傳播出去，
03:22
of all the computers and everything, it's the forging of a mass awareness,
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大眾的知識就會形成，
03:28
of where everybody can really know everything
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而世界上的人就會知道在何時何地
03:30
that's going on everywhere in the planet.
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有什麼事情正在發生。
03:32
And therefore it will become intolerable --
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然後令人不能忍受的是－
03:34
what compassion is, is where it will become intolerable for us,
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什麼是慈悲？慈悲就是我們完全無法忍受這樣的事：
03:38
totally intolerable that we sit here in comfort and in pleasure and enjoying
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我們坐在這裡，非常舒服，享受人生，
03:44
the life of the mind or whatever it is,
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愉快地思考，
03:46
and there are people who are absolutely riddled with disease
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卻還有很多人必須和疾病奮鬥，
03:51
and they cannot have a bite of food and they have no place,
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沒有食物可吃，沒有地方可住，
03:54
or they're being brutalized by some terrible person and so forth.
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或者被暴虐的人折磨凌遲…。
03:57
It just becomes intolerable.
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這是我們所無法忍受的。
03:59
With all of us knowing everything, we're kind of forced by technology
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我們都知道這些事，因為進步的科技驅策我們，
04:05
to become Buddhas or something, to become enlightened.
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使得我們可以像佛陀、聖賢一樣知天下事，像他們一樣大徹大悟。
04:09
And of course, we all will be deeply disappointed when we do.
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我們知道這些事的時候一定會很沮喪。
04:15
Because we think that because we are kind of tired of what we do,
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因為我們總是想著，我們做的事情已經夠累人了，
04:22
a little bit tired, we do suffer.
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我們自己也在受苦啊。
04:24
We do enjoy our misery in a certain way.
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這麼說的話我們就是在「享受」我們的不幸了。
04:27
We distract ourselves from our misery by running around somewhere,
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我們為了驅除內心的痛苦，一直往外跑，到很多地方去，
04:30
but basically we all have this common misery
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但是其實我們每個人都有同樣的不幸，
04:32
that we are sort of stuck inside our skins
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那就是都把自己困在身體裡，
04:35
and everyone else is out there.
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把他人關在外面。
04:38
And occasionally we get together with another person stuck in their skin
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有時我們遇見了別人，一樣把自我封閉起來的人，
04:41
and the two of us enjoy each other, and each one tries to get out of their own,
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兩個人都在享受自我的世界。然後我們想跳出自己的小宇宙
04:46
and ultimately it fails of course, and then we're back into this thing.
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而終究沒有成功，結果就又回到一樣的循環去。
04:50
Because our egocentric perception -- from the Buddha's point of view, misperception --
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我們自我中心的想法－佛陀認為是一種錯誤的觀念－
04:56
is that all we are is what is inside our skin.
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認為自我就是該阻隔外在而在身體裡面的。
05:00
And it's inside and outside, self and other,
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我們區分內在跟外在，自己跟他人，
05:03
and other is all very different.
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每個他人又都是不一樣的。
05:04
And everyone here is unfortunately carrying that habitual perception,
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至於所謂的其他人，每個人也都抱持同樣的想法，
05:07
a little bit, right?
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多少都有吧？
05:10
You know, someone sitting next to you in a seat -- that's OK because you're in a theater,
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好比說，有時候有人會坐在你旁邊，在電影院裡的時候還沒關係，
05:13
but if you were sitting on a park bench and someone came up and sat that close to you,
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可是如果你在公園裡，有不認識的人跟你共坐一張長凳，
05:16
you'd freak out.
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你應該會嚇壞了吧。
05:18
What do they want from me? Like, who's that?
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這人到底想幹嘛？他是誰？
05:21
And so you wouldn't sit that close to another person
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然後，要是你，你也不會和別人坐得太近，
05:24
because of your notion that it's you versus the universe -- that's all Buddha discovered.
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因為我們先入為主的觀念就是「我」對抗「宇宙」。這些就是佛陀發現的問題。
05:30
Because that cosmic basic idea that it is us all alone, each of us,
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我們的宇宙觀認為我們每個人都是孤孤單單的，
05:35
and everyone else is different,
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人與人之間也都不一樣，
05:38
then that puts us in an impossible situation, doesn't it?
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這種想法把我們逼進死巷裡去了，不是嗎？
05:41
Who is it who's going to get enough attention from the world?
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誰才能脫穎而出成為焦點？
05:44
Who's going to get enough out of the world?
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誰能夠在世界上得到滿足？
05:47
Who's not going to be overrun by an infinite number of other beings --
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如果每個人都應該跟別人不一樣的話，我們都在背負數十億人給予的沉重壓力，
05:50
if you're different from all the other beings?
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誰能夠逃離這種無形的壓力？
05:53
So where compassion comes is where you
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這時候慈悲的心就出現了，
05:57
surprisingly discover you lose yourself in some way:
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在你驚訝地發現自己迷失了的時候；
06:02
through art, through meditation, through understanding, through knowledge actually,
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透過藝術、沉思、了解、知識，
06:07
knowing that you have no such boundary,
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你會發現其實自我沒有界線，
06:09
knowing your interconnectedness with other beings.
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我們和世上的眾生緊密相連在一起。
06:12
You can experience yourself as the other beings
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我們可以體驗其它的生命，
06:15
when you see through the delusion of being separated from them.
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只要我們放下「自我」跟「他人」的偏差觀念，
06:20
When you do that, you're forced to feel what they feel.
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並感受他們的感受。
06:23
Luckily, they say -- I still am not sure --
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這樣是很幸運沒錯，不過卻有人說－我還不太確定－
06:27
but luckily, they say that when you reach that point because some people have said
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幸運歸幸運，他們說如果有人達到這樣的境界，
06:31
in the Buddhist literature, they say, "Oh who would really want to be compassionate?
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聽從了佛經的教誨，他們會說，噢，真的有人想變成慈悲的人嗎？
06:34
How awful! I'm so miserable on my own. My head is aching.
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太可怕了！我自己的生活就已經很悲慘了。我頭痛，
06:39
My bones are aching. I go from birth to death. I'm never satisfied.
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骨頭痛，我必須經歷生老病死。我從未感到滿足。
06:42
I never have enough, even if I'm a billionaire, I don't have enough.
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擁有的總是不夠，就算我成為百億富翁還是覺得錢不夠，
06:45
I need a hundred billion." So I'm like that.
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我要一千億才夠。我就是這樣的。
06:48
Imagine if I had to feel even a hundred other people's suffering.
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如果我還必須感受其他人的痛苦，
06:54
It would be terrible.
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那真是太可怕了。
06:56
But apparently, this is a strange paradox of life.
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不過這正是生命的弔詭之處。
06:59
When you're no longer locked in yourself,
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當我們不再禁錮自我的時候，
07:03
and as the wisdom or the intelligence or the scientific knowledge
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一切智慧、知識就能進來，
07:06
of the nature of the world, that enables you to let your mind spread out,
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讓我們認識世界的法則，我們的心胸就會開闊，
07:14
and empathize, and enhance the basic human ability of empathizing,
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讓我們能夠找回純潔的本性，能憐憫他人，
07:18
and realizing that you are the other being,
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知道我們就是其他的生命。
07:21
somehow by that opening, you can see the deeper nature of life. And you can,
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然後我們就能看清生命的深層意義，
07:27
you get away from this terrible iron circle of I, me, me, mine,
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解脫自我的枷鎖，不再以「我」為中心，
07:35
like the Beatles used to sing.
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就像披頭四唱的那樣。
07:37
You know, we really learned everything in the '60s.
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其實啊，我們在六零年代就學完所有事情了。
07:39
Too bad nobody ever woke up to it,
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可惜的是沒有人發現，
07:43
and they've been trying to suppress it since then.
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還一直拼命想要超越那個年代。
07:45
I, me, me, mine. It's like a perfect song, that song. A perfect teaching.
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我，我，我，還是我。這是多麼完美的吟詠，多麼完美的教誨。
07:50
But when we're relieved from that,
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然而如果我們能夠超越的話，
07:53
we somehow then become interested in all the other beings.
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我們會為世上的其他生命吸引，
07:55
And we feel ourselves differently. It's totally strange.
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對自己的看法也會大大改觀。這很奇怪，
07:59
It's totally strange.
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非常奇怪。
08:01
The Dalai Lama always likes to say --
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達賴喇嘛總喜歡說，
08:04
he says that when you give birth in your mind to the idea of compassion,
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一個人想到要發憐憫之心，
08:09
it's because you realize that you yourself and your pains and pleasures
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是因為他覺得自己的存在、痛苦和快樂已經變得微不足道，
08:13
are finally too small a theater for your intelligence.
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不值得多花心思了。
08:17
It's really too boring whether you feel like this or like that, or what, you know --
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探究自己的感受到底如何只會越想越無趣，
08:22
and the more you focus on how you feel, by the way, the worse it gets.
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而且越這樣追根究柢，事情就會變得越糟。
08:28
Like, even when you're having a good time,
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比如說，連我們覺得很快樂的時候，都還要再去想
08:30
when is the good time over?
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「這麼快樂的時光什麼時候會結束？」
08:32
The good time is over when you think, how good is it?
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當我們開始探究快樂時光到底有多快樂的時候，快樂時光就結束了。
08:36
And then it's never good enough.
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所謂的快樂時光永遠不夠快樂。
08:39
I love that Leilei said that the way of helping those who are suffering badly
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我喜歡Leilei 說的，幫助受困在「自我」
08:44
on the physical plane or on other planes is having a good time,
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及其他執念的人解脫的方法，就是享受人生。
08:49
doing it by having a good time.
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我們幫助他們，也是在享受人生。
08:51
I think the Dalai Lama should have heard that. I wish he'd been there to hear that.
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我想達賴喇嘛一定聽過，我希望他是在佛前聽過的。
08:54
He once told me -- he looked kind of sad;
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他曾經跟我說過－帶點哀傷地說，
08:56
he worries very much about the haves and have-nots.
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他很擔心世界上那些已經擁有一切、跟一無所有的人。
08:58
He looked a little sad, because he said, well, a hundred years ago,
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他的面容哀戚，因為他說一百年前，
09:02
they went and took everything away from the haves.
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一無所有的人把富足的人搶得一點不剩。
09:05
You know, the big communist revolutions, Russia and China and so forth.
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好比說俄羅斯跟中國的共產主義革命。
09:08
They took it all away by violence,
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他們訴諸暴力搶奪，
09:10
saying they were going to give it to everyone, and then they were even worse.
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宣稱會把搶來的東西分給每一個人，但是他們卻更為腐化，
09:14
They didn't help at all.
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根本沒有貢獻。
09:16
So what could possibly change this terrible gap that has opened up in the world today?
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所以我們現在要怎麼弭平這麼深遠的鴻溝呢？
09:22
And so then he looks at me.
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他看著我。
09:24
So I said, "Well, you know, you're all in this yourself. You teach: it's generosity,"
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我說：「我覺得你陷得太深了。我只想到你平常教我們
09:29
was all I could think of. What is virtue?
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要有慷慨的心。我們說的良心－
09:32
But of course, what you said, I think the key to saving the world, the key to compassion
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拯救世界的關鍵，也是發慈悲心的關鍵，
09:38
is that it is more fun.
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是要歡喜去做。
09:42
It should be done by fun. Generosity is more fun. That's the key.
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去做這些事的時候應該是高興的。慷慨的心讓人覺得快樂。這才是重點。
09:47
Everybody has the wrong idea. They think Buddha was so boring,
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可是大家都搞錯了。他們覺得佛陀很無趣，
09:51
and they're so surprised when they meet Dalai Lama and he's fairly jolly.
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然而當他們接觸達賴喇嘛的時候，他們很驚訝於他的隨和歡喜。
09:55
Even though his people are being genocided --
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即使他的族人正遭遇種族屠殺－
09:57
and believe me, he feels every blow on every old nun's head,
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相信我，他對於每一座中國監獄裡
10:02
in every Chinese prison. He feels it.
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僧侶頭上挨的每一擊都感同身受。真的。
10:05
He feels the way they are harvesting yaks nowadays.
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對於人們濫捕珍貴的犛牛也是一樣，
10:08
I won't even say what they do. But he feels it.
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濫殺者的行為令人不忍卒聽，他也能夠感受到。
10:12
And yet he's very jolly. He's extremely jolly.
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但他還是很歡喜，非常歡喜。
10:16
Because when you open up like that,
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因為我們的心胸開闊的時候，
10:19
then you can't just -- what good does it do to add being miserable with others' misery?
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我們就不會沉溺於悲傷－把悲傷的人弄得更難過有什麼好處？
10:25
You have to find some vision where you see how hopeful it is,
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看事情的角度應該要調整得積極一點，
10:28
how it can be changed.
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去想能怎麼把它變得更好。
10:30
Look at that beautiful thing Chiho showed us. She scared us with the lava man.
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看看日本藝術家青島千穗展示給我們的美麗圖畫，她畫了一個很可怕的岩漿人，
10:34
She scared us with the lava man is coming,
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在她的畫裡，岩漿人要入侵了、
10:37
then the tsunami is coming,
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海嘯也要來了，
10:39
but then finally there were flowers and trees, and it was very beautiful.
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可是結局卻是鳥語花香，很美麗的世界。
10:45
It's really lovely.
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真的很美麗。
10:47
So, compassion means to feel the feelings of others,
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所以，憐憫關懷意味著感人所感，
10:53
and the human being actually is compassion.
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每個人都該有惻隱之心，
10:56
The human being is almost out of time.
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不過這已經快過時了。
11:00
The human being is compassion because what is our brain for?
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惻隱之心人皆有之，那我們的大腦拿來做什麼？
11:04
Now, Jim's brain is memorizing the almanac.
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博聞強記的人可以把一整本年鑑背起來，
11:10
But he could memorize all the needs of all the beings that he is, he will, he did.
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如果他也可以把所有眾生的需要記起來，他過去、現在、未來的生命；
11:15
He could memorize all kinds of fantastic things to help many beings.
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如果他也把各種幫助眾生的好方法記起來的話，
11:20
And he would have tremendous fun doing that.
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他一定會更快樂。
11:23
So the first person who gets happy,
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所以人要快樂的首要之務
11:25
when you stop focusing on the self-centered situation of, how happy am I,
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就是不要再自我中心了，不要再去想自己到底快不快樂，
11:30
where you're always dissatisfied --
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這樣永遠不會滿足－
11:32
as Mick Jagger told us. You never get any satisfaction that way.
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就像Mick Jagger（滾石樂團主唱）說的，這樣永遠不能滿足。
11:37
So then you decide, "Well, I'm sick of myself.
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再來你會想，我受夠自己了！
11:39
I'm going to think of how other people can be happy.
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我要來想想如何讓別人快樂。
11:42
I'm going to get up in the morning and think,
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我要早起思索，
11:43
what can I do for even one other person, even a dog, my dog, my cat,
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能為別人做什麼，就算只是一個人也好，就算是狗貓
11:47
my pet, my butterfly?"
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寵物蝴蝶的都好。
11:50
And the first person who gets happy when you do that,
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再者，得到快樂的人
11:52
you don't do anything for anybody else, but you get happier, you yourself,
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不見得為別人做了什麼事，但就是變得歡喜了，自己感受到快樂，
11:57
because your whole perception broadens
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因為思想觀念變寬闊了，
12:00
and you suddenly see the whole world and all of the people in it.
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就會突然看見整個世界還有所有的居民。
12:04
And you realize that this -- being with these people --
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然後你便會了解，跟人們在一起，
12:06
is the flower garden that Chiho showed us.
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那種美好就如同青島千穗展示的花園一般。
12:08
It is Nirvana.
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那就是涅槃，無憂無慮的快樂境界。
12:10
And my time is up. And I know the TED commandments.
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我的時間到了，我也知道TED的規則，
12:12
Thank you.
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謝謝大家。
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Robert Thurman - Buddhist scholarThe first American to be ordained a Tibetan Monk by the Dalai Lama, Robert A.F. Thurman is a scholar, author and tireless proponent of peace.
Why you should listen
Tenzin Robert Thurman became a Tibetan monk at age 24. He's a professor of Indo-Tibetan Buddhist studies at Columbia University, and co-founder of Tibet House US, a nonprofit dedicated to the preservation and promotion of Tibetan civilization.
Thurman's focus is on the balance between inner insight and cultural harmony. In interpreting the teachings of Buddha, he argues that happiness can be reliable and satisfying in an enduring way without depriving others.
He has translated many Buddhist Sutras, or teachings, and written many books, recently taking on the topic of Anger for the recent Oxford series on the seven deadly sins. He maintains a podcast on Buddhist topics. And yes, he is Uma's dad.
Robert Thurman | Speaker | TED.com