TEDWomen 2015
Aspen Baker: A better way to talk about abortion
亞絲萍·貝克: 更適當談論墮胎的方法
Filmed:
Readability: 3.8
1,791,168 views
墮胎極為普遍。以美國為例，每三名婦女就有一位會在一生中墮過胎，然而這個話題引發的火爆情緒，以及高度政治化的爭論，幾乎沒有留下深思明辯的空間。亞絲萍·貝克以切身的經驗，在這段富含思想的演講中，呼籲大家不要在「選擇權」或「生命權」上打轉，而是選擇「優聲權」。她並解釋在討論棘手話題時，「優聲權」的「聽故事與講故事」能發揮什麼功能。
Aspen Baker - Listener
As abortion debates have turned black-and-white, Aspen Baker advocates being "pro-voice" -- listening respectfully and compassionately to all kinds of experiences. Full bio
As abortion debates have turned black-and-white, Aspen Baker advocates being "pro-voice" -- listening respectfully and compassionately to all kinds of experiences. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
It was the middle of summer
and well past closing time
and well past closing time
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那是仲夏的某日，
早過了打烊的時間，
早過了打烊的時間，
00:15
in the downtown Berkeley bar
where my friend Polly and I
where my friend Polly and I
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在柏克萊鬧區一間小酒吧裡，
我和我的朋友波莉
我和我的朋友波莉
00:17
worked together as bartenders.
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在裡面當酒保。
00:20
Usually at the end of our shift
we had a drink -- but not that night.
we had a drink -- but not that night.
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通常我們會在下班後小酌一番，
但那晚沒有。
但那晚沒有。
00:25
"I'm pregnant.
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「我懷孕了。
我還不知道該怎麼辦。」
我還不知道該怎麼辦。」
00:27
Not sure what I'm going
to do yet," I told Polly.
to do yet," I told Polly.
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我這樣告訴波莉。
00:30
Without hesitation, she replied,
"I've had an abortion."
"I've had an abortion."
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沒有一絲猶豫，她回答，
「我以前墮過胎。」
「我以前墮過胎。」
00:34
Before Polly, no one had ever told me
that she'd had an abortion.
that she'd had an abortion.
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波莉是第一個告訴我
曾有過墮胎經驗的人。
曾有過墮胎經驗的人。
00:40
I'd graduated from college
just a few months earlier
just a few months earlier
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我在那之前幾個月才從大學畢業，
00:43
and I was in a new relationship
when I found out that I was pregnant.
when I found out that I was pregnant.
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剛交了個新男朋友，
卻發現我懷孕了。
卻發現我懷孕了。
00:47
When I thought about my choices,
I honestly did not know how to decide,
I honestly did not know how to decide,
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我考慮著各式選項，
真的不知道該如何抉擇，
真的不知道該如何抉擇，
00:52
what criteria I should use.
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該用什麼標準。
00:55
How would I know what
the right decision was?
the right decision was?
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我怎麼知道哪個才是正確的決定？
00:58
I worried that I would regret
an abortion later.
an abortion later.
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我擔心我會後悔墮胎。
01:03
Coming of age on the beaches
of Southern California,
of Southern California,
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成年前在南加海灘悠遊的我，
01:05
I grew up in the middle of
our nation's abortion wars.
our nation's abortion wars.
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在這個國家的墮胎權之爭中長大。
01:09
I was born in a trailer on the third
anniversary of Roe vs. Wade.
anniversary of Roe vs. Wade.
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「羅訴韋德案」判決後三週年，
我在一輛小拖車中出生。
我在一輛小拖車中出生。
01:15
Our community was surfing Christians.
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我們的社區是愛衝浪的基督徒。
01:18
We cared about God, the less fortunate,
and the ocean.
and the ocean.
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我們的心中掛念著神、
困乏的人，和海洋。
困乏的人，和海洋。
01:22
Everyone was pro-life.
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每個人都反對墮胎。
01:24
As a kid, the idea of abortion made me so
sad that I knew if I ever got pregnant
sad that I knew if I ever got pregnant
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孩童時，墮胎這個概念
讓我非常難過，
讓我非常難過，
我知道如果我懷孕了，
我一定不要墮胎。
我一定不要墮胎。
01:30
I could never have one.
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01:33
And then I did.
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結果我做了。
01:36
It was a step towards the unknown.
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路途茫茫的一步。
01:39
But Polly had given me
a very special gift:
a very special gift:
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但是波莉給了我
一項非常特別的禮物：
一項非常特別的禮物：
01:42
the knowledge that I wasn't alone
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我知道我不是獨自受苦，
01:44
and the realization that abortion
was something that we can talk about.
was something that we can talk about.
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我也領悟到原來墮胎
是可以拿出來談的。
是可以拿出來談的。
01:49
Abortion is common.
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墮胎很普遍。
01:51
According to the Guttmacher Institute,
one in three women in America
one in three women in America
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據古馬社機構所說，
每三位美國婦女
每三位美國婦女
01:54
will have an abortion in their lifetime.
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就有一位會在一生中墮胎。
02:00
But for the last few decades, the dialogue
around abortion in the United States
around abortion in the United States
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但是在美國，
過去幾十年對墮胎的對話
過去幾十年對墮胎的對話
02:04
has left little room for anything beyond
pro-life and pro-choice.
pro-life and pro-choice.
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侷限在生命權對選擇權的討論。
02:07
It's political and polarizing.
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很政治化及兩極化。
02:10
But as much as abortion is hotly debated,
it's still rare for us,
it's still rare for us,
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即使墮胎的爭論如火如荼，
對我們而言，
對我們而言，
02:14
whether as fellow women
or even just as fellow people,
or even just as fellow people,
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不管是同為女性，
或僅是同為人，
或僅是同為人，
02:18
to talk with one another
about the abortions that we have.
about the abortions that we have.
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我們仍然很難討論
彼此墮胎的經驗。
彼此墮胎的經驗。
02:24
There is a gap.
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有一道鴻溝，
02:25
Between what happens in politics
and what happens in real life,
and what happens in real life,
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介在政治議題與現實生活間。
02:29
and in that gap, a battlefield mentality.
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而在那道鴻溝中，
存著殺戮戰場的心態。
存著殺戮戰場的心態。
02:31
An "are you with us
or against us?" stance takes root.
or against us?" stance takes root.
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「非友即敵」的立場根深蒂固。
02:36
This isn't just about abortion.
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這不僅限於墮胎議題。
02:38
There are so many important issues
that we can't talk about.
that we can't talk about.
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還有很多重要的問題
我們都不能說。
我們都不能說。
02:44
And so finding ways to shift the conflict
to a place of conversation
to a place of conversation
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所以想辦法將衝突改變為對話，
02:49
is the work of my life.
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是我畢生的工作。
02:53
There are two main ways to get started.
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有兩個重要的方法可以著手。
02:56
One way is to listen closely.
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一個是仔細聆聽，
02:58
And the other way is to share stories.
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另一個就是分享故事。
03:03
So, 15 years ago, I cofounded
an organization called Exhale
an organization called Exhale
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15 年前，我與人共創一家
名叫「舒氣」的組織，
名叫「舒氣」的組織，
03:06
to start listening to people
who have had abortions.
who have had abortions.
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開始傾聽人們墮胎的心聲。
03:10
The first thing we did was create
a talk-line, where women and men
a talk-line, where women and men
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首先我們成立一條輔導專線，
不分男女都能打電話進來，
在情緒上得到支持。
在情緒上得到支持。
03:13
could call to get emotional support.
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03:16
Free of judgment and politics,
believe it or not, nothing like our sevice
believe it or not, nothing like our sevice
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這裡沒有論斷，也不談政治。
信不信，像我們這樣的服務
信不信，像我們這樣的服務
03:21
had ever existed.
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從不曾出現過。
03:24
We needed a new framework that could
hold all the experiences that we were
hold all the experiences that we were
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我們需要新的架構能包容
我們在專線上聽到的所有經歷。
03:28
hearing on our talk-line.
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03:30
The feminist who regrets her abortion.
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女性主義者後悔墮了胎；
03:33
The Catholic who is grateful for hers.
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天主教徒慶幸墮了胎。
03:36
The personal experiences that weren't
fitting neatly into one box or the other.
fitting neatly into one box or the other.
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個人的經歷無法套進現有的框框。
03:41
We didn't think it was right
to ask women to pick a side.
to ask women to pick a side.
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我們無法認同要求婦女選邊站。
03:45
We wanted to show them that
the whole world was on their side,
the whole world was on their side,
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我們想讓她們知道
在她們度過這段深切的個人經歷時，
整個世界都站在她們那邊。
整個世界都站在她們那邊。
03:50
as they were going through this deeply
personal experience.
personal experience.
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03:54
So we invented "pro-voice."
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所以我們創立了「優聲權」。
03:58
Beyond abortion, pro-voice works on hard
issues that we've struggled with globally
issues that we've struggled with globally
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除了墮胎，優聲權還處理
全球歷時多年的棘手問題，
04:02
for years,
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04:04
issues like immigration, religious
tolerance, violence against women.
tolerance, violence against women.
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像是移民、宗教寬容、
對婦女施暴等問題。
對婦女施暴等問題。
04:09
It also works on deeply personal topics
that might only matter to you
that might only matter to you
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它也處理切身的個人問題，
只有你自己、
只有你自己、
04:13
and your immediate family and friends.
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你的直系親屬及摯友才會關心。
04:15
They have a terminal illness,
their mother just died,
their mother just died,
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有人得了絕症，
有人的母親剛去世，
有人的母親剛去世，
04:19
they have a child with special needs
and they can't talk about it.
and they can't talk about it.
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有人的孩子需要特殊教育
卻無法拿出來談。
卻無法拿出來談。
04:25
Listening and storytelling are
the hallmarks of pro-voice practice.
the hallmarks of pro-voice practice.
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聽故事與講故事
是優聲權的兩大特點。
是優聲權的兩大特點。
04:31
Listening and storytelling.
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聽故事與講故事，
04:33
That sounds pretty nice.
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聽起來很美好。
04:35
Sounds maybe, easy?
We could all do that.
We could all do that.
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聽起來好像很容易？
我們都會做。
我們都會做。
04:39
It's not easy.
It's very hard.
It's very hard.
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這並不容易，而且非常難。
04:42
Pro-voice is hard because we are talking
about things everyone's fighting about
about things everyone's fighting about
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優聲權很難，因為我們在談的，
是每個人都在爭論
是每個人都在爭論
04:48
or the things that no one
wants to talk about.
wants to talk about.
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或沒有人想提出來談的事。
04:51
I wish I could tell you that when you
decide to be pro-voice, that you'll find
decide to be pro-voice, that you'll find
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我真希望我能告訴你，
當你決定要「優聲」，
當你決定要「優聲」，
你會發現突破的美麗瞬間，
園子開滿了鮮花，
園子開滿了鮮花，
04:58
beautiful moments of breakthrough
and gardens full of flowers,
and gardens full of flowers,
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05:02
where listening and storytelling
creates wonderful "a-ha" moments.
creates wonderful "a-ha" moments.
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在那裡，講故事與說故事
能產生美妙的頓悟時刻。
能產生美妙的頓悟時刻。
05:07
I wish I could tell you that there would
be a feminist welcoming party for you,
be a feminist welcoming party for you,
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我真希望我能告訴你
會有一個女權歡迎會在等著你，
會有一個女權歡迎會在等著你，
05:11
or that there's a long-lost sisterhood
of people who are just ready
of people who are just ready
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或是你久違的姊妹淘
在你被徹底擊敗時
張手等你回來。
張手等你回來。
05:14
to have your back when you get slammed.
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05:18
But it can be vulnerable and exhausting
to tell our own stories
to tell our own stories
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但是訴說自己的故事
卻讓你身心俱疲，
卻讓你身心俱疲，
05:22
when it feels like nobody cares.
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尤其在你覺得沒人在乎的時候。
05:26
And if we truly listen to one another,
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如果我們真的傾聽彼此，
05:30
we will hear things that demand
that we shift our own perceptions.
that we shift our own perceptions.
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我們會聽到
需要我們設身處地的故事。
需要我們設身處地的故事。
05:37
There is no perfect time
and there is no perfect place
and there is no perfect place
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永遠沒有
完美的時刻與完美的地點
完美的時刻與完美的地點
05:40
to start a difficult conversation.
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來展開艱難的對話。
05:43
There's never a time when everyone will be
on the same page, share the same lens,
on the same page, share the same lens,
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永遠不會有什麼時刻，
大家想法一致、看法一致，
大家想法一致、看法一致，
05:49
or know the same history.
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或經歷相同的過去。
05:53
So, let's talk about listening
and how to be a good listener.
and how to be a good listener.
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所以，就來談談傾聽的技巧，
怎樣變成好的聆聽者。
怎樣變成好的聆聽者。
05:58
There's lots of ways to be a good listener
and I'm going to give you just a couple.
and I'm going to give you just a couple.
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有很多方法能成為好的聆聽者，
我在這裡跟大家說幾個。
我在這裡跟大家說幾個。
06:02
One is to ask open-ended questions.
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其中一個就是要問開放式問題。
06:05
You can ask yourself or someone
that you know,
that you know,
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你能問自己或你認識的人：
06:08
"How are you feeling?"
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「你覺得如何？」
06:11
"What was that like?"
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「那像什麼？」
06:14
"What do you hope for, now?"
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「你現在希望怎麼辦？」
06:18
Another way to be a good listener
is to use reflective language.
is to use reflective language.
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另一個成為好的聆聽者的方法
是用反映語法。
是用反映語法。
06:22
If someone is talking about
their own personal experience,
their own personal experience,
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如果有人在談他們的個人經驗，
06:25
use the words that they use.
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你要用他們用的字。
06:28
If someone is talking about an abortion
and they say the word "baby,"
and they say the word "baby,"
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如果有人在談墮胎時
用了「寶貝」這個字，
用了「寶貝」這個字，
06:31
you can say "baby."
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你也可以用「寶貝」。
06:33
If they say "fetus,"
you can say "fetus."
you can say "fetus."
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如果他們說「胎兒」，
你也可以說「胎兒」。
你也可以說「胎兒」。
06:36
If someone describes themselves
as gender queer to you,
as gender queer to you,
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如果他們對你描述自己
是性別酷兒，
是性別酷兒，
06:39
you can say "gender queer."
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你也可以說性別酷兒。
06:41
If someone kind of looks like a he,
but they say they're a she -- it's cool.
but they say they're a she -- it's cool.
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如果某人看起來像是男的，
可是他說他自己是女的，
可是他說他自己是女的，
那也沒關係，就稱他是女性。
06:45
Call that person a she.
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06:48
When we reflect the language of the person
who is sharing their own story,
who is sharing their own story,
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當我們反映分享者的語言時，
06:51
we are conveying that we are interested
in understanding who they are
in understanding who they are
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我們就傳達出
我們想瞭解他們是誰，
我們想瞭解他們是誰，
06:57
and what they're going through.
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及他們經歷的一切。
06:59
The same way that we hope people are
interested in knowing us.
interested in knowing us.
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就跟我們希望別人
也會想瞭解我們一樣。
也會想瞭解我們一樣。
07:05
So, I'll never forget being in one
of the Exhale counselor meetings,
of the Exhale counselor meetings,
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所以，我永遠都忘不了
在某次舒氣輔導員會議上，
在某次舒氣輔導員會議上，
07:08
listening to a volunteer talk about how
she was getting a lot of calls
she was getting a lot of calls
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聽一位志工說她如何面對
07:12
from Christian women who
were talking about God.
were talking about God.
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許多女基督徒在電話上
談到神的故事。
談到神的故事。
07:16
Now, some of our volunteers are religious,
but this particular one was not.
but this particular one was not.
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我們有些志工是信教的，
但這位不是。
但這位不是。
07:20
At first, it felt a little weird for her
to talk to callers about God.
to talk to callers about God.
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一開始，她覺得跟
來電者談神有點怪。
來電者談神有點怪。
07:24
So, she decided to get comfortable.
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所以她決定要讓自己自在一點。
07:27
And she stood in front of her mirror
at home, and she said the word "God."
at home, and she said the word "God."
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她在家裡站在鏡子前
說「神」。
說「神」。
07:31
"God."
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「神」。
07:32
"God."
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「神」。
07:33
"God."
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「神」。
07:34
"God."
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「神」。
07:35
"God."
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「神」。
07:36
"God."
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「神」。
07:37
Over and over and over again
until the word no longer felt strange
until the word no longer felt strange
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一次又一次的說，
直到從她口中說出這個字
直到從她口中說出這個字
07:41
coming out her mouth.
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不再感到奇怪。
07:43
Saying the word God did not turn this
volunteer into a Christian,
volunteer into a Christian,
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說神這個字沒有
讓這位志工成為基督徒，
讓這位志工成為基督徒，
07:47
but it did make her a much
better listener of Christian women.
better listener of Christian women.
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但這的確讓她在面對基督徒婦女時
成為更好的聆聽者。
成為更好的聆聽者。
07:54
So, another way to be pro-voice
is to share stories,
is to share stories,
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那麼，另一個成為
「優聲」的方法是分享故事。
「優聲」的方法是分享故事。
07:58
and one risk that you take on, when you
share your story with someone else,
share your story with someone else,
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你跟別人分享自己的故事時，
你要承擔的風險是，
你要承擔的風險是，
08:02
is that given the same
set of circumstances as you
set of circumstances as you
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就算聽者跟你的處境相同，
08:05
they might actually
make a different decision.
make a different decision.
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他們也可能做出不同的決定。
08:09
For example, if you're telling a story
about your abortion,
about your abortion,
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舉例來說，
你說了自己墮胎的故事，
你說了自己墮胎的故事，
08:13
realize that she might have had the baby.
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卻發現她可能留下孩子。
08:18
She might have placed for adoption.
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她也可能送人領養。
08:21
She might have told her parents
and her partner -- or not.
and her partner -- or not.
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她可能告訴她的父母或同居人，
也可能沒說。
也可能沒說。
08:26
She might have felt relief and confidence,
even though you felt sad and lost.
even though you felt sad and lost.
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她可能覺得鬆了口氣、很有把握，
而你卻覺得悲慘失落。
而你卻覺得悲慘失落。
08:32
This is okay.
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這沒關係。
08:35
Empathy gets created the moment we
imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes.
imagine ourselves in someone else's shoes.
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同理心在我們
設身處地的瞬間就產生了。
設身處地的瞬間就產生了。
08:41
It doesn't mean we all have
to end up in the same place.
to end up in the same place.
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這不代表我們會有一樣的結局。
08:46
It's not agreement, it's not sameness
that pro-voice is after.
that pro-voice is after.
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優聲權追求的
並非同意、並非一致。
並非同意、並非一致。
08:53
It creates a culture and a society that
values what make us special and unique.
values what make us special and unique.
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它創造一種文化、一個社會，
珍視讓我們獨特的差異。
珍視讓我們獨特的差異。
08:59
It values what makes us human,
our flaws and our imperfections.
our flaws and our imperfections.
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它珍視我們之所以為人的一切，
我們的缺陷和我們的不完美。
我們的缺陷和我們的不完美。
09:04
And this way of thinking allows us to see
our differences with respect,
our differences with respect,
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這種思維讓我們尊重彼此的不同，
09:09
instead of fear.
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而不是恐懼。
09:12
And it generates the empathy that we need
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而如此就產生我們所需的同理心，
09:14
to overcome all the ways
that we try to hurt one another.
that we try to hurt one another.
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以克服試圖傷害彼此的一切。
09:18
Stigma, shame, prejudice,
discrimination, oppression.
discrimination, oppression.
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汙名、恥辱、偏見、歧視、壓迫。
09:24
Pro-voice is contagious,
and the more it's practiced
and the more it's practiced
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優聲權具感染力，
練習愈多，傳染愈快。
09:29
the more it spreads.
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09:35
So, last year I was pregnant again.
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去年我又懷孕了。
09:38
This time I was looking forward
to the birth of my son.
to the birth of my son.
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這次我很期待我兒子出生。
09:42
And while pregnant, I had never been asked
how I was feeling so much in all my life.
how I was feeling so much in all my life.
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懷孕時，我接受到的關心
真是一生中最多的階段。
真是一生中最多的階段。
09:48
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
09:50
And however I replied, whether I was
feeling wonderful and excited
feeling wonderful and excited
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無論我如何回答，
是覺得好奇妙、好興奮，
是覺得好奇妙、好興奮，
09:54
or scared and totally freaked out,
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還是很害怕、完全嚇壞了，
09:57
there was always someone there
giving me a "been there" response.
giving me a "been there" response.
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總有人對我說：
「我也是過來人。」
「我也是過來人。」
10:01
It was awesome.
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真棒。
10:03
It was a welcome, yet dramatic
departure from what I experience
departure from what I experience
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這是個令人愉快、戲劇性的再出發，
揮別我五味雜陳的墮胎經驗。
10:08
when I talk about
my mixed feelings of my abortion.
my mixed feelings of my abortion.
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10:13
Pro-voice is about the real stories
of real people
of real people
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優聲權要的是用真人真事，
10:16
making an impact on the way abortion
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衝擊大家對墮胎
10:19
and so many other politicized
and stigmatized issues
and stigmatized issues
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及其他被政治化、汙名化的議題
10:23
are understood and discussed.
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所持的看法及爭論。
10:25
From sexuality and mental health
to poverty and incarceration.
to poverty and incarceration.
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從性取向、心理健康、
貧窮到監禁都是。
貧窮到監禁都是。
10:31
Far beyond definition
as single right or wrong decisions,
as single right or wrong decisions,
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我們的經歷形形色色，
遠遠超過二分法的定義。
遠遠超過二分法的定義。
10:35
our experiences can exist on a spectrum.
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10:40
Pro-voice focuses that conversation
on human experience
on human experience
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優聲權的重點
是人類經歷的對話，
是人類經歷的對話，
10:44
and it makes support and respect
possible for all.
possible for all.
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並支持及尊重所有可能。
10:50
Thank you.
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謝謝。
10:52
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Aspen Baker - ListenerAs abortion debates have turned black-and-white, Aspen Baker advocates being "pro-voice" -- listening respectfully and compassionately to all kinds of experiences.
Why you should listen
When Aspen Baker had an abortion at 24, she felt caught between warring pro-life and pro-choice factions, with no space to share her feelings. So she cofounded Exhale, a nonprofit that offers women and men emotional support after an abortion, free of judgment and politics. After being constantly asked to pick a side in the abortion conflict, Baker and her cofounders started a new conversation.
Leaving the black-and-white debate behind, they embraced the gray areas and personal stories hidden behind the fight. They invented “pro-voice,” a philosophy and practice that uses listening and storytelling to help people have respectful, compassionate exchanges about abortion, and many other controversial topics. Called a “fun, fearless female” by Cosmopolitan, Baker is an award-winning leader and author of Pro-Voice: How to Keep Listening When the World Wants a Fight.
More profile about the speakerLeaving the black-and-white debate behind, they embraced the gray areas and personal stories hidden behind the fight. They invented “pro-voice,” a philosophy and practice that uses listening and storytelling to help people have respectful, compassionate exchanges about abortion, and many other controversial topics. Called a “fun, fearless female” by Cosmopolitan, Baker is an award-winning leader and author of Pro-Voice: How to Keep Listening When the World Wants a Fight.
Aspen Baker | Speaker | TED.com