Mission Blue II
Paul Greenberg: The four fish we're overeating -- and what to eat instead
保羅．葛林伯格: 我們濫食的四類魚 —— 以及其他選擇
Filmed:
Readability: 3.9
1,595,957 views
我們捕捉三文魚、吞拿魚和蝦這些大眾海鮮的方式給我們的海洋帶來毀滅性的威脅。保羅．葛林伯格探討了海鮮經濟的規模和不合理性，並且提出了一些具體方案給我們實施一些改善變化，目的是讓自然世界和依賴捕魚飲食生存的人類受益。
Paul Greenberg - Author
Paul Greenberg researches and writes about fish, aquaculture and the future of the ocean. Full bio
Paul Greenberg researches and writes about fish, aquaculture and the future of the ocean. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
So when I was a kid ...
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童年的時候，
00:15
this was my team.
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它們就是我的玩伴。
00:16
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
00:17
I stunk at sports.
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我運動很差勁，
00:19
I didn't like to play them,
I didn't like to watch them.
I didn't like to watch them.
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我不喜歡做體育運動，
也不喜歡看別人運動。
也不喜歡看別人運動。
00:22
So this is what I did. I went fishing.
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所以我就選擇去釣魚。
00:25
And for all of my growing up
I fished on the shores of Connecticut,
I fished on the shores of Connecticut,
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我的成長記憶，
都是在康涅狄格州岸邊釣魚，
都是在康涅狄格州岸邊釣魚，
00:28
and these are the creatures
that I saw on a regular basis.
that I saw on a regular basis.
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而這些生物，
就是我常常遇到的玩伴。
就是我常常遇到的玩伴。
但長大之後，我上了大學，
00:32
But after I grew up and went to college,
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00:35
and I came home in the early 90's,
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90年代初，我回到家時，
00:37
this is what I found.
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我卻發現：
00:39
My team had shrunk.
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我的玩伴減少了。
00:41
It was like literally having
your roster devastated.
your roster devastated.
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少得不成隊形。
00:44
And as I sort of looked into that,
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當我開始從釣客的個人角度
00:46
from a very personal
point of view as a fisherman,
point of view as a fisherman,
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去調查這件事時，
00:48
I started to kind of figure out,
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我開始有點想了解，
00:50
well, what was the rest of the world
thinking about it?
thinking about it?
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究竟...世界上其他人
對這件事情是怎麼想的？
對這件事情是怎麼想的？
00:53
First place I started to look
was fish markets.
was fish markets.
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我首先去看的地方是魚市。
00:55
And when I went to fish markets,
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當我去了魚市場，
00:57
in spite of where I was --
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無論是哪裡的魚市場，
00:58
whether I was in North Carolina,
or Paris, or London, or wherever --
or Paris, or London, or wherever --
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南卡羅琳娜的、巴黎的、
倫敦的、還有其他地方的，
倫敦的、還有其他地方的，
01:02
I kept seeing this weirdly
repeating trope of four creatures,
repeating trope of four creatures,
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我不斷地看到這四種生物
奇異地重複組合出現，
奇異地重複組合出現，
01:07
again and again --
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一次又一次地出現
01:08
on the menus, on ice --
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在菜單上、在冰上：
01:10
shrimp, tuna, salmon and cod.
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蝦，鮪魚，鮭魚和鱈魚。
01:13
And I thought this was pretty strange,
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我覺得這樣相當奇怪，
01:15
and as I looked at it, I was wondering,
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在調查時，我就想：
01:17
did anyone else notice
this sort of shrinking of the market?
this sort of shrinking of the market?
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難道沒有別人注意到
市面上的海鮮種類在減少嗎？
市面上的海鮮種類在減少嗎？
01:21
Well, when I looked into it,
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是的，當我深入調查時，
01:22
I realized that people
didn't look at it as their team.
didn't look at it as their team.
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我發現人們並沒有
把魚看成他們的玩伴，
把魚看成他們的玩伴，
01:25
Ordinary people, the way they looked
at seafood was like this.
at seafood was like this.
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普通人眼中的海鮮是這樣的。
01:29
It's not an unusual human characteristic
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這是人之常情，
01:31
to reduce the natural world
down to very few elements.
down to very few elements.
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人們喜歡將自然界
精簡成寥寥幾個元素。
精簡成寥寥幾個元素。
01:35
We did it before, 10,000 years ago,
when we came out of our caves.
when we came out of our caves.
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一萬年前，從洞穴人進化時，
我們就是這樣子，
我們就是這樣子，
01:38
If you look at fire pits
from 10,000 years ago,
from 10,000 years ago,
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一萬年前的煮食火堆遺跡裡，
01:41
you'll see raccoons,
you'll see, you know, wolves,
you'll see, you know, wolves,
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你可以發現浣熊、狼，
01:44
you'll see all kinds
of different creatures.
of different creatures.
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各種各樣的生物都有，
01:46
But if you telescope to the age of --
you know, 2,000 years ago,
you know, 2,000 years ago,
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但，要是近觀到兩千年前，
01:49
you'll see these four mammals:
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你會看到這四種哺乳類動物：
01:51
pigs, cows, sheep and goats.
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豬、牛、綿羊、山羊。
01:54
It's true of birds, too.
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還有一些鳥類。
01:55
You look at the menus
in New York City restaurants
in New York City restaurants
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紐約市餐館裡的菜單，
01:58
150 years ago, 200 years ago,
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在150年前、200年前，
02:00
you'll see snipe, woodcock, grouse,
dozens of ducks, dozens of geese.
dozens of ducks, dozens of geese.
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賣的是鷸、山鷸、松雞，
鴨和鵝更是居多，
鴨和鵝更是居多，
02:05
But telescope ahead to the age
of modern animal husbandry,
of modern animal husbandry,
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但再看看現代畜牧業，
02:07
and you'll see four:
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大家會看到四種生物：
02:09
turkeys, ducks, chicken and geese.
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火雞、鴨、雞、鵝。
因此我們今天之所以這樣，
是可以理解的。
是可以理解的。
02:12
So it makes sense
that we've headed in this direction.
that we've headed in this direction.
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02:15
But how have we headed in this direction?
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但我們到底是如何走到這一步呢？
02:17
Well ...
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嗯...
02:18
first it's a very, very new problem.
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首先這是一個相當新起的問題。
02:20
This is the way we've been fishing
the oceans over the last 50 years.
the oceans over the last 50 years.
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我們在過去50年裡
就一直這樣在海裡捕魚。
就一直這樣在海裡捕魚。
02:23
World War II was a tremendous incentive
to arm ourselves in a war against fish.
to arm ourselves in a war against fish.
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二戰給了我們極大的動力
來武裝自己、對付魚類。
來武裝自己、對付魚類。
02:29
All of the technology
that we perfected during World War II --
that we perfected during World War II --
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我們在二戰期間完善了所有科技，
02:32
sonar, lightweight polymers --
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例如聲納、輕質聚合物，
02:34
all these things
were redirected towards fish.
were redirected towards fish.
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都被轉換成用來對付魚類。
02:36
And so you see this tremendous buildup
in fishing capacity,
in fishing capacity,
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所以你可以看到
捕撈量的驚人增長，
捕撈量的驚人增長，
02:39
quadrupling in the course of time,
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自二戰結束至今，
02:41
from the end of World War II
to the present time.
to the present time.
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短時間裡就翻了兩番。
02:44
And right now that means
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也就是說，
02:45
we're taking between 80 and 90 million
metric tons out of the sea every year.
metric tons out of the sea every year.
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我們現在的年均捕魚量
在 8~9千萬噸之間。
在 8~9千萬噸之間。
02:49
That's the equivalent
of the human weight of China
of the human weight of China
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這相當於每年從海裡撈出
全體中國人的重量。
全體中國人的重量。
02:52
taken out of the sea every year.
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02:54
And it's no coincidence
that I use China as the example
that I use China as the example
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我用中國做例子，
不是純屬巧合，
不是純屬巧合，
02:57
because China is now
the largest fishing nation in the world.
the largest fishing nation in the world.
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因為中國目前是世界上
捕魚量最大的國家。
捕魚量最大的國家。
03:00
Well, that's only half the story.
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這只不過是故事的一半。
03:01
The other half of the story
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故事的另一半是，
03:03
is this incredible boom
in fish farming and aquaculture,
in fish farming and aquaculture,
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魚類養殖和水產養殖快速增長，
03:07
which is now, only
in the last year or two,
in the last year or two,
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在過去短短一兩年時間內，
03:09
starting to exceed the amount
of wild fish that we produce.
of wild fish that we produce.
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就開始超過野生魚的產量。
03:12
So that if you add wild fish
and farmed fish together,
and farmed fish together,
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所以野生魚和養殖魚加在一起，
03:16
you get the equivalent
of two Chinas created from the ocean
of two Chinas created from the ocean
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就等同每年從海裡產出
全體中國人總重量的兩倍。
全體中國人總重量的兩倍。
03:20
each and every year.
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03:21
And again, it's not a coincidence
that I use China as the example,
that I use China as the example,
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再次，我用中國做例子，
不是純屬巧合，
不是純屬巧合，
03:24
because China, in addition
to being the biggest catcher of fish,
to being the biggest catcher of fish,
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因為中國不僅是最大的捕魚國，
03:27
is also the biggest farmer of fish.
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還是最大的魚類養殖國。
03:30
So let's look though at the four choices
we are making right now.
we are making right now.
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來看看現在我們選擇的四種魚類：
03:35
The first one --
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首先
03:36
by far the most consumed seafood
in America and in much of the West,
in America and in much of the West,
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在美國和許多西方國家
目前消耗最多的海鮮是
目前消耗最多的海鮮是
03:40
is shrimp.
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蝦。
03:41
Shrimp in the wild --
as a wild product --
as a wild product --
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野生蝦在野生產品當中，
03:44
is a terrible product.
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是一種糟糕的產品。
03:45
5, 10, 15 pounds of wild fish
are regularly killed
are regularly killed
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一般要殺5、10、15磅的野生魚類
03:49
to bring one pound of shrimp
to the market.
to the market.
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才能給市場帶來 1 磅蝦。
03:52
They're also incredibly fuel inefficient
to bring to the market.
to bring to the market.
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而且蝦的運輸燃油效率極低。
03:55
In a recent study that was produced
out of Dalhousie University,
out of Dalhousie University,
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達爾豪斯大學最近的一項研究發現，
03:58
it was found that dragging for shrimp
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拖網捕蝦，
04:00
is one of the most carbon-intensive
ways of fishing that you can find.
ways of fishing that you can find.
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是二氧化碳排放最高的捕魚方式之一。
你可以養殖蝦，
04:04
So you can farm them,
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04:06
and people do farm them,
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的確有人養蝦，
04:07
and they farm them a lot
in this very area.
in this very area.
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而且在這一帶養得特別多。
04:09
Problem is ...
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但問題是，
04:10
the place where you farm shrimp
is in these wild habitats --
is in these wild habitats --
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養蝦是在野生棲息地養，
04:14
in mangrove forests.
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在紅樹林裡面養。
04:15
Now look at those lovely
roots coming down.
roots coming down.
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大家看看那些往下生長的樹根。
04:17
Those are the things
that hold soil together,
that hold soil together,
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這些樹根鞏固土壤，
04:19
protect coasts, create habitats
for all sorts of young fish, young shrimp,
for all sorts of young fish, young shrimp,
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保護海線，為各種小魚蝦
以及各種生物創造棲息地，
以及各種生物創造棲息地，
04:23
all sorts of things
that are important to this environment.
that are important to this environment.
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而這些生物亦同時維護這個環境。
04:26
Well, this is what happens
to a lot of coastal mangrove forests.
to a lot of coastal mangrove forests.
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但是，許多沿海紅樹林
卻落得此下場。
卻落得此下場。
04:29
We've lost millions of acres
of coastal mangroves
of coastal mangroves
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在過去30-40年裡，
我們喪失了上百萬畝的沿海紅樹林。
04:31
over the last 30 or 40 years.
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04:32
That rate of destruction has slowed,
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破壞率雖然有減緩，
04:35
but we're still
in a major mangrove deficit.
in a major mangrove deficit.
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但是我們仍然損失了太多的紅樹林。
目前另外一個狀況是
04:38
The other thing that's going on here
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04:40
is a phenomenon that the filmmaker
Mark Benjamin called "Grinding Nemo."
Mark Benjamin called "Grinding Nemo."
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電影製作人Mark Benjamin所稱的
「海底碎魚總動員」現象。
「海底碎魚總動員」現象。
這個現象，對於你在熱帶珊瑚礁上
看到過的生物來說，至關重要。
看到過的生物來說，至關重要。
04:44
This phenomenon is very, very relevant
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04:47
to anything that you've ever seen
on a tropical reef.
on a tropical reef.
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04:49
Because what's going on right now,
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因為目前捕蝦，
04:51
we have shrimp draggers
dragging for shrimp,
dragging for shrimp,
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我們用拖蝦網去捕蝦，
04:53
catching a huge amount of bycatch,
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同時又兼捕大量副漁獲，
04:55
that bycatch in turn gets ground up
and turned into shrimp food.
and turned into shrimp food.
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這些副漁獲會被碾碎做蝦飼料。
04:59
And sometimes, many of these vessels --
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有時許多這些漁船，
05:01
manned by slaves --
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都是奴工在工作--
05:03
are catching these so-called "trash fish,"
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亦會捕獲到所謂的「垃圾魚」，
05:05
fish that we would love to see on a reef,
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我們喜歡在珊瑚礁上看到的魚，
05:07
grinding them up
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然後將它們碾碎，
05:09
and turning them into shrimp feed --
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將它們變成蝦飼料，
05:10
an ecosystem literally eating itself
and spitting out shrimp.
and spitting out shrimp.
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一個自己吃自己、自動產蝦
的生態系統。
的生態系統。
美國消費量第二大的海鮮，
05:15
The next most consumed seafood in America,
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05:17
and also throughout the West,
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亦備受西方國家喜愛，
05:19
is tuna.
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鮪魚（也叫吞拿魚、金槍魚）
05:20
So tuna is this ultimate global fish.
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鮪魚是頂級的全球性魚類。
05:23
These huge management areas
have to be observed
have to be observed
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這些大範圍的管理區域必須接受監測，
05:26
in order for tuna to be well managed.
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目的是更好地管理對鮪魚的捕撈。
05:28
Our own management area,
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我們的「區域漁業管理組織」，
05:30
called a Regional Fisheries
Management Organization,
Management Organization,
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05:32
is called ICCAT,
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簡稱「ICCAT」，
05:33
the International Commission
for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas.
for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas.
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「大西洋鮪類保育委員會」的簡稱。
05:37
The great naturalist
Carl Safina once called it,
Carl Safina once called it,
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偉大的自然學家
Carl Safina曾經戲稱為：
Carl Safina曾經戲稱為：
05:39
"The International Conspiracy
to Catch all the Tunas."
to Catch all the Tunas."
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「撈光所有鮪魚的國際陰謀會」。
05:43
Of course we've seen
incredible improvement
incredible improvement
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當然，我們看到ICCAT
05:45
in ICCAT in the last few years,
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在過去兩年的巨大進步，
05:46
there is total room for improvement,
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雖然還有很大的改善空間，
05:48
but it remains to be said
that tuna is a global fish,
that tuna is a global fish,
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鮪魚是不是全球性魚類
雖仍有待商榷，
雖仍有待商榷，
05:51
and to manage it,
we have to manage the globe.
we have to manage the globe.
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但要管理它，
我們就必須全球管理，
我們就必須全球管理，
05:54
Well, we could also try to grow tuna
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我們也可以試試養殖鮪魚，
05:56
but tuna is a spectacularly bad
animal for aquaculture.
animal for aquaculture.
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但鮪魚極不適合水產養殖。
很多人可能不知道，
其實鮪魚是溫血動物。
其實鮪魚是溫血動物。
05:59
Many people don't know this
but tuna are warm-blooded.
but tuna are warm-blooded.
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06:02
They can heat their bodies 20 degrees
above ambient temperature,
above ambient temperature,
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它們可以使自己身體的溫度
比環境溫度高20度，
比環境溫度高20度，
06:06
they can swim at over 40 miles an hour.
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鮪魚可以每小時游40英里。
06:08
So that pretty much eliminates
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所以這把養殖魚類的優點
完全消滅了，對吧？
完全消滅了，對吧？
06:10
all the advantages
of farming a fish, right?
of farming a fish, right?
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06:12
A farmed fish is --
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水產養殖魚或者一般魚
06:13
or a fish is cold-blooded,
it doesn't move too much.
it doesn't move too much.
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都是冷血動物，不怎麼運動。
06:16
That's a great thing for growing protein.
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這有利於蛋白質生長。
06:18
But if you've got
this crazy, wild creature
this crazy, wild creature
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但要養殖這瘋狂野生動物，
06:20
that swims at 40 miles an hour
and heats its blood --
and heats its blood --
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每小時游40英里，
又要溫熱血液，
又要溫熱血液，
06:23
not a great candidate for aquaculture.
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恐怕這對水產養殖來說
不是個好選擇。
不是個好選擇。
美國和西方國家消費最多的
另一種海鮮是
另一種海鮮是
06:25
The next creature --
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06:27
most consumed seafood in America
and throughout the West --
and throughout the West --
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06:30
is salmon.
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鮭魚（也稱三文魚）。
06:31
Now salmon got its plundering, too,
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目前鮭魚也很搶手，
06:33
but it didn't really necessarily
happen through fishing.
happen through fishing.
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但是不必通過漁業來捕捉。
06:36
This is my home state of Connecticut.
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我來自康州。
06:38
Connecticut used to be home
to a lot of wild salmon.
to a lot of wild salmon.
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康州以前是大量野生鮭魚的棲身地。
06:41
But if you look
at this map of Connecticut,
at this map of Connecticut,
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但看看康州的這張地圖，
06:43
every dot on that map is a dam.
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地圖上每個點代表一個堤壩。
06:47
There are over 3,000 dams
in the state of Connecticut.
in the state of Connecticut.
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康州有超過3,000個堤壩。
06:51
I often say this is why people
in Connecticut are so uptight --
in Connecticut are so uptight --
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我常說這就是為什麼
康州人脾氣這麼爆躁--
康州人脾氣這麼爆躁--
06:54
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
06:56
If somebody could just
unblock Connecticut's chi,
unblock Connecticut's chi,
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要是有人能把康州通通氣，
07:00
I feel that we could have
an infinitely better world.
an infinitely better world.
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我覺得我們會有
一個更美好的世界。
一個更美好的世界。
07:02
But I made this particular comment
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但是有次我對一個國家公園
的工作人員提了這個提議，
的工作人員提了這個提議，
07:04
at a convention once
of national parks officers,
of national parks officers,
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07:06
and this guy from North Carolina
sidled up to me, he says,
sidled up to me, he says,
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有個來自南卡州的人
就走過來跟我說：
就走過來跟我說：
07:09
"You know, you oughtn't be so hard
on your Connecticut,
on your Connecticut,
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「你可不要太跟你的康州過不去，
07:13
cause we here in North Carolina,
we got 35,000 dams."
we got 35,000 dams."
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你看我們南卡州這裡，
有3萬5千個堤壩呢。」
有3萬5千個堤壩呢。」
07:17
So it's a national epidemic,
it's an international epidemic.
it's an international epidemic.
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所以說美國有個堤壩流行病，
這也是個全球流行病。
這也是個全球流行病。
07:20
And there are dams everywhere,
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堤壩無處不在，
07:22
and these are precisely the things
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就是這些堤壩，
07:23
that stop wild salmon
from reaching their spawning grounds.
from reaching their spawning grounds.
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讓野生鮭魚無法到達產卵地。
07:26
So as a result,
we've turned to aquaculture,
we've turned to aquaculture,
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因此我們就轉靠水產養殖，
07:28
and salmon is one the most successful,
at least from a numbers point of view.
at least from a numbers point of view.
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而鮭魚是最成功的水產魚類，
至少從數字上看是最成功的。
至少從數字上看是最成功的。
07:32
When they first started farming salmon,
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人們剛開始養殖鮭魚時，
07:34
it could take as many
as six pounds of wild fish
as six pounds of wild fish
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要消耗多達 6 磅野生魚，
07:37
to make a single pound of salmon.
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才能產出 1 磅鮭魚。
07:39
The industry has, to its credit,
greatly improved.
greatly improved.
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鮭魚養殖業的確大有進步。
07:42
They've gotten it below two to one,
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現在是消耗 2 磅產 1 磅，
07:44
although it's a little bit of a cheat
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雖然這其中有一點欺騙性，
07:46
because if you look at the way
aquaculture feed is produced,
aquaculture feed is produced,
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因為養殖飼料的生產方式，
07:49
they're measuring pellets --
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是用顆粒計算的，
07:50
pounds of pellets per pound of salmon.
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飼料的磅數比鮭魚的磅數。
07:53
Those pellets are in turn reduced fish.
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而飼料也是用魚製造的。
07:55
So the actual -- what's called the FIFO,
the fish in and the fish out --
the fish in and the fish out --
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所以實際魚的投入和產出比--
簡稱為 FIFO--
簡稱為 FIFO--
07:59
kind of hard to say.
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就很難說出一個正確數字。
08:00
But in any case,
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但無論如何，
08:02
credit to the industry,
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養殖業功勞很大，
08:03
it has lowered the amount of fish
per pound of salmon.
per pound of salmon.
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降低了生產每磅鮭魚所需的魚量。
08:05
Problem is we've also gone crazy
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問題是：目前我們的鮭魚產量
也開始有點瘋狂了。
也開始有點瘋狂了。
08:08
with the amount of salmon
that we're producing.
that we're producing.
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08:10
Aquaculture is the fastest growing
food system on the planet.
food system on the planet.
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水產業是全球發展最快的食物系統。
08:13
It's growing at something
like seven percent per year.
like seven percent per year.
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年均增長率約為7%。
08:16
And so even though
we're doing less per fish
we're doing less per fish
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雖然我們消耗更少的魚，
08:20
to bring it to the market,
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產出更多的鮭魚，
08:22
we're still killing
a lot of these little fish.
a lot of these little fish.
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我們還是在捕殺很多小魚。
08:25
And it's not just fish
that we're feeding fish to,
that we're feeding fish to,
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而且我們不僅用魚來餵魚，
08:28
we're also feeding fish
to chickens and pigs.
to chickens and pigs.
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我們也用魚餵雞和豬。
所以我們吃雞，雞吃魚，
08:31
So we've got chickens
and they're eating fish,
and they're eating fish,
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08:34
but weirdly, we also have fish
that are eating chickens.
that are eating chickens.
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但見怪不怪，我們也有魚吃雞，
08:38
Because the byproducts of chickens --
feathers, blood, bone --
feathers, blood, bone --
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因為雞的副產品：
雞毛、雞血、雞骨，
雞毛、雞血、雞骨，
08:41
get ground up and fed to fish.
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會被碾碎用來餵魚。
08:44
So I often wonder,
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所以我經常想，
08:45
is there a fish that ate
a chicken that ate a fish?
a chicken that ate a fish?
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有沒有魚吃過吃過魚的雞？
好像雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題。好吧——
08:49
It's sort of a reworking
of the chicken and egg thing. Anyway --
of the chicken and egg thing. Anyway --
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08:52
(Laughter)
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（笑聲）
08:53
All together, though,
it results in a terrible mess.
it results in a terrible mess.
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總的來說，結果是非常糟糕的。
08:56
What you're talking about
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我們看到的是，
08:57
is something between 20 and 30 million
metric tons of wild creatures
metric tons of wild creatures
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2 - 3千萬公噸的野生動物
09:03
that are taken from the ocean
and used and ground up.
and used and ground up.
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從海裡捕撈出來，
被碾碎使用。
被碾碎使用。
09:06
That's the equivalent
of a third of a China,
of a third of a China,
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也就是三分之一中國人的重量，
09:08
or of an entire United States of humans
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或者是整個美國的總人口體重，
09:10
that's taken out of the sea
each and every year.
each and every year.
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每年從海裡被撈出來。
四種魚裡的最後一種，
定義有點模糊，
定義有點模糊，
09:14
The last of the four
is a kind of amorphous thing.
is a kind of amorphous thing.
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09:16
It's what the industry calls "whitefish."
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業界一般稱為「白魚」。
09:20
There are many fish that get cycled
into this whitefish thing
into this whitefish thing
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很多種魚最後變成了所謂的「白魚」，
09:23
but the way to kind of tell
the story, I think,
the story, I think,
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但要解釋個中故事，
09:25
is through that classic piece
of American culinary innovation,
of American culinary innovation,
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要先提一下美國飲食
的革命性發明:
的革命性發明:
09:28
the Filet-O-Fish sandwich.
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麥香魚堡。
09:29
So the Filet-O-Fish sandwich
actually started as halibut.
actually started as halibut.
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麥香魚堡一開始用的是大比目魚。
09:32
And it started because
a local franchise owner
a local franchise owner
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原因是當時一個本地食店老闆發現
09:35
found that when he served
his McDonald's on Friday, nobody came.
his McDonald's on Friday, nobody came.
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星期五他的麥當勞店沒有顧客。
09:40
Because it was a Catholic
community, they needed fish.
community, they needed fish.
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因為當地人信基督教，需要吃魚。
09:43
So he went to Ray Kroc and he said,
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所以他去找Ray Kro，說：
09:45
"I'm going to bring you a fish sandwich,
going to be made out of halibut."
going to be made out of halibut."
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「我要做一種魚肉堡，
用大比目魚做。」
用大比目魚做。」
09:48
Ray Kroc said, "I don't think
it's going to work.
it's going to work.
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Ray Kroc就說：「我看不太好吧!」
09:51
I want to do a Hula Burger,
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「我想做一種呼拉漢堡，
09:52
and there's going to be
a slice of pineapple on a bun.
a slice of pineapple on a bun.
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2524
在麵包上放一片菠蘿。
09:54
But let's do this, let's have a bet.
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我們倆各做各的，
打賭看誰贏。
打賭看誰贏。
09:56
Whosever sandwich sells more,
that will be the winning sandwich."
that will be the winning sandwich."
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誰的漢堡賣得多，
誰的漢堡是冠軍漢堡。」
誰的漢堡是冠軍漢堡。」
10:00
Well, it's kind of sad for the ocean
that the Hula Burger didn't win.
that the Hula Burger didn't win.
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哎，呼拉漢堡最後沒有贏，
對大海真是件悲傷的事，
對大海真是件悲傷的事，
10:04
So he made his halibut sandwich.
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所以他就做了比目魚堡。
10:06
Unfortunately though,
the sandwich came in at 30 cents.
the sandwich came in at 30 cents.
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不過不妙的是，
魚堡賣30美分一個，
魚堡賣30美分一個，
10:10
Ray wanted the sandwich
to come in at 25 cents,
to come in at 25 cents,
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Ray想要做到25美分。
10:12
so he turned to Atlantic cod.
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所以他就去用大西洋鱈魚。
10:14
We all know what happened to
Atlantic cod in New England.
Atlantic cod in New England.
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新英格蘭的大西洋鱈魚，
不用說大家都知道。
不用說大家都知道。
10:17
So now the Filet-O-Fish sandwich
is made out of Alaska pollock,
is made out of Alaska pollock,
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所以如今的麥香魚堡
用的是阿拉斯加黃線狹鱈，
用的是阿拉斯加黃線狹鱈，
10:20
it's the largest fin fish fishery
in the United States,
in the United States,
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它是美國捕撈量最大的魚類，
10:23
2 to 3 billion pounds of fish
taken out of the sea every single year.
taken out of the sea every single year.
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每年捕撈20到30億磅。
10:28
If we go through the pollock,
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如果黃線狹鱈撈完了，
10:29
the next choice is probably
going to be tilapia.
going to be tilapia.
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下一個選擇應該就是羅非魚。
10:32
Tilapia is one of those fish
nobody ever heard of 20 years ago.
nobody ever heard of 20 years ago.
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羅非魚在20年前不出名，
10:35
It's actually a very efficient converter
of plant protein into animal protein,
of plant protein into animal protein,
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但可以非常有效地將植物蛋白質
轉為動物蛋白質，
轉為動物蛋白質，
10:39
and it's been a godsend
to the third world.
to the third world.
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羅非魚一直是第三世界的福音。
10:41
It's actually a tremendously
sustainable solution,
sustainable solution,
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它其實是一種極好的
可持續發展解決方案，
可持續發展解決方案，
10:43
it goes from an egg
to an adult in nine months.
to an adult in nine months.
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它從卵成長為成魚只需九個月。
10:46
The problem is that when you
look about the West,
look about the West,
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問題是從西方角度看，
10:48
it doesn't do what the West
wants it to do.
wants it to do.
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羅非魚卻沒有西方想要的特點。
10:50
It really doesn't have what's called
an oily fish profile.
an oily fish profile.
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羅非魚沒有所謂的“魚油”賣點。
10:53
It doesn't have the EPA and DHA omega-3s
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也沒有EPA，DHA、
omega-3不飽和脂肪酸，
omega-3不飽和脂肪酸，
10:55
that we all think are going
to make us live forever.
to make us live forever.
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這些我們覺得吃了
可以長生不老的東西。
可以長生不老的東西。
10:59
So what do we do?
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那我們該怎麼辦？
11:00
I mean, first of all,
what about this poor fish, the clupeids?
what about this poor fish, the clupeids?
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首先來說，
這種小魚怎麼樣，鯡魚？
這種小魚怎麼樣，鯡魚？
11:03
The fish that represent a huge part
of that 20 to 30 million metric tons.
of that 20 to 30 million metric tons.
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在上面提到的二、三千萬噸裡，
這種魚占了很大比例。
這種魚占了很大比例。
許多保護主義者
都提到這種可能性，
都提到這種可能性，
11:08
Well, one possibility
that a lot of conservationists have raised
that a lot of conservationists have raised
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11:11
is could we eat them?
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我們可以吃鯡魚嗎？
11:13
Could we eat them directly
instead of feeding them to salmon?
instead of feeding them to salmon?
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我們可不可以直接吃它，
而不是用來餵鮭魚？
而不是用來餵鮭魚？
11:16
There are arguments for it.
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這有些爭論。
11:17
They are tremendously fuel efficient
to bring to market,
to bring to market,
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鯡魚的燃油經濟性極高，
11:20
a fraction of the fuel cost
of say, shrimp,
of say, shrimp,
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只佔蝦的燃油費用的冰山一角，
11:22
and at the very top
of the carbon efficiency scale.
of the carbon efficiency scale.
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碳效率的排名也相當可觀。
11:25
They also are omega-3 rich,
a great source for EPA and DHA.
a great source for EPA and DHA.
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4136
鯡魚含豐富EPA、DHA、
omega-3不飽和脂肪酸。
omega-3不飽和脂肪酸。
11:30
So that is a potential.
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所以鯡魚有潛力。
11:31
And if we were to go down that route
what I would say is,
what I would say is,
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如果我們從這點說開來，
我想說的是，
我想說的是，
11:35
instead of paying a few bucks a pound --
or a few bucks a ton, really --
or a few bucks a ton, really --
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與其在每磅上支出幾美元--
實際是每噸幾美元--
實際是每噸幾美元--
11:39
and making it into aquafeed,
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用來把鯡魚變成魚飼料，
11:41
could we halve the catch
and double the price for the fishermen
and double the price for the fishermen
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我們是不是可以將捕撈量減半，
讓漁民的售價提升一倍，
讓漁民的售價提升一倍，
11:44
and make that our way
of treating these particular fish?
of treating these particular fish?
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以此作為我們對待
這些魚類的做法嗎？
這些魚類的做法嗎？
11:49
Other possibility though,
which is much more interesting,
which is much more interesting,
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另外一個選擇更有趣：
11:51
is looking at bivalves,
particularly mussels.
particularly mussels.
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雙殼貝類，特別是貽貝。
11:54
Now, mussels are very high in EPA and DHA,
they're similar to canned tuna.
they're similar to canned tuna.
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貽貝含豐富EPA和DHA，
跟鮪魚罐頭相似。
跟鮪魚罐頭相似。
11:59
They're also extremely fuel efficient.
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貽貝的燃油經濟性也極高。
12:01
To bring a pound of mussels to market
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上市一磅貽貝的碳排放，
12:03
is about a thirtieth of the carbon
as required to bring beef to market.
as required to bring beef to market.
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只有上市一磅牛肉的十三分之一。
12:06
They require no forage fish,
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它們也不用吃魚，
12:08
they actually get their omega-3s
by filtering the water of microalgae.
by filtering the water of microalgae.
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它們實際上可以過濾水中的藻類
得到自己的omega-3不飽和脂肪酸。
得到自己的omega-3不飽和脂肪酸。
12:12
In fact, that's where omega-3s come from,
they don't come from fish.
they don't come from fish.
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這其實是omega-3不飽和脂肪酸
的來源，而不是魚。
的來源，而不是魚。
12:15
Microalgae make the omega-3s,
they're only bioconcentrated in fish.
they're only bioconcentrated in fish.
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omega-3不飽和脂肪酸由藻類製造，
它們在魚類體內進行生物富集，
它們在魚類體內進行生物富集，
12:19
Mussels and other bivalves
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貽貝和其他雙殼類
12:21
do tremendous amounts of water filtration.
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能過濾大量的水。
12:23
A single mussel can filter
dozens of gallons every single day.
dozens of gallons every single day.
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一個貽貝每天可以過濾幾十加侖水。
12:26
And this is incredibly important
when we look at the world.
when we look at the world.
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這對地球的發展相當重要。
如今，水體中過量的氮和磷
12:29
Right now, nitrification,
overuse of phosphates in our waterways
overuse of phosphates in our waterways
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12:33
are causing tremendous algal blooms.
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使得藻類大量繁殖。
12:35
Over 400 new dead zones
have been created in the last 20 years,
have been created in the last 20 years,
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過去20年裡新形成的死水區
有超過400個，
有超過400個，
12:39
tremendous sources of marine life death.
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造成大量的海洋生物死亡。
我們還可以完全不考慮魚類，
12:44
We also could look at not a fish at all.
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12:46
We could look at a vegetable.
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我們可以考慮植物，
12:47
We could look at seaweed, the kelps,
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我們可以吃海帶，褐藻，
12:49
all these different varieties of things
that can be high in omega-3s,
that can be high in omega-3s,
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它們有許多不同品種，
均富含ω-3不飽和脂肪酸，
均富含ω-3不飽和脂肪酸，
12:53
can be high in proteins,
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富含蛋白質，
12:54
tremendously good things.
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極好的優質食品。
12:56
They filter the water
just like mussels do.
just like mussels do.
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這些植物可以像貽貝那樣過濾水。
12:58
And weirdly enough,
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而且信不信由你，
13:00
it turns out that you
can actually feed this to cows.
can actually feed this to cows.
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你還可以用海帶來餵牛。
13:02
Now, I'm not a big fan of cattle.
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我不是那麼喜歡吃牛。
13:04
But if you wanted to keep growing cattle
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但要是你想養牛，
13:06
in a time and place
where water resources are limited,
where water resources are limited,
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但是養殖時間和地點
不能提供很多水源，
不能提供很多水源，
13:09
you're growing seaweed in the water,
you don't have to water it --
you don't have to water it --
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你可以在水裡養海草，
又不需要去澆水——
又不需要去澆水——
13:12
major consideration.
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這點很重要。
13:14
And the last fish is a question mark.
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最後一種魚是一個問號。
13:17
We have the ability
to create aquacultured fish
to create aquacultured fish
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我們現在有能力
去創造一種水產養殖魚，
去創造一種水產養殖魚，
13:21
that creates a net gain
of marine protein for us.
of marine protein for us.
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給我們帶來豐富海洋蛋白。
13:24
This creature would have to be vegetarian,
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這種魚要只吃植物，
13:26
it would have to be fast growing,
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又要生長得很快，
13:28
it would have to be adaptable
to a changing climate
to a changing climate
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既要容易適應氣候變化，
13:31
and it would have to have
that oily fish profile,
that oily fish profile,
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又要有油性魚類的好處，
13:33
that EPA, DHA, omega-3
fatty acid profile that we're looking for.
fatty acid profile that we're looking for.
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給我們帶來EPA、DHA、
omega-3不飽和脂肪酸。
omega-3不飽和脂肪酸。
13:37
This exists kind of on paper.
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這似乎只存在於紙面上。
13:40
I have been reporting
on these subjects for 15 years.
on these subjects for 15 years.
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過去15年我一直報導這類話題。
13:44
Every time I do a new story,
somebody tells me,
somebody tells me,
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每次我做一個新報導，
人們就說：
人們就說：
13:47
"We can do all that. We can do it.
We've figured it all out.
We've figured it all out.
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「這些我們都可以做到。沒問題。
我們已經有辦法了。」
我們已經有辦法了。」
13:49
We can produce a fish
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「我們可以生產一種魚，
13:51
that's a net gain of marine protein
and has omega-3s."
and has omega-3s."
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富含海洋蛋白和
omega-3不飽和脂肪酸。」
omega-3不飽和脂肪酸。」
13:53
Great.
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了不起。
13:54
It doesn't seem to be getting scaled up.
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但好像做不成規模。
13:57
It is time to scale this up.
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是時候要把這規模做大。
13:58
If we do,
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要是做到，
14:00
30 million metric tons of seafood,
a third of the world catch,
a third of the world catch,
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三千萬噸海鮮，
全球捕撈量的三分之一，
全球捕撈量的三分之一，
14:03
stays in the water.
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就可以留在水裡。
14:05
So I guess what I'm saying is
this is what we've been going with.
this is what we've been going with.
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所以我想說的就是，
這些是我們一直以來的選擇。
這些是我們一直以來的選擇。
14:09
We tend to go with our appetites
rather than our minds.
rather than our minds.
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我們傾向於聽從自己的胃口，
而不是我們的思想。
而不是我們的思想。
14:12
But if we went with this,
or some configuration of it,
or some configuration of it,
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但要是我們選擇這些，
或者類似的組合，
或者類似的組合，
14:15
we might have a little more of this.
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那我們就可以有更多魚類。
14:19
Thank you.
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謝謝。
14:20
(Applause)
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（掌聲）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Paul Greenberg - AuthorPaul Greenberg researches and writes about fish, aquaculture and the future of the ocean.
Why you should listen
Paul Greenberg is the author of the James Beard Award winning New York Times bestseller Four Fish and a regular contributor to The New York Times. He has also written for National Geographic Magazine, GQ, The Times (of London) and Vogue, and he lectures on seafood and the environment around the world. He is currently a fellow with The Safina Center and a Pew Fellow in Marine Conservation.
His most recent book, American Catch, the story of how we lost and how we might regain American local seafood, was published by The Penguin Press in June of 2014 and was featured on Fresh Air with Terry Gross.
Paul Greenberg | Speaker | TED.com