TEDGlobalLondon
Jon Ronson: When online shaming goes too far
Filmed:
Readability: 4.4
3,565,658 views
Twitter gives a voice to the voiceless, a way to speak up and hit back at perceived injustice. But sometimes, says Jon Ronson, things go too far. In a jaw-dropping story of how one un-funny tweet ruined a woman's life and career, Ronson shows how online commenters can end up behaving like a baying mob -- and says it's time to rethink how we interact online.
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmaker
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio
Jon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
In the early days of Twitter,
it was like a place of radical de-shaming.
it was like a place of radical de-shaming.
0
112
5327
00:17
People would admit
shameful secrets about themselves,
shameful secrets about themselves,
1
5463
2948
00:20
and other people would say,
"Oh my God, I'm exactly the same."
"Oh my God, I'm exactly the same."
2
8435
4494
00:24
Voiceless people realized
that they had a voice,
that they had a voice,
3
12953
2802
00:27
and it was powerful and eloquent.
4
15779
2955
00:30
If a newspaper ran some racist
or homophobic column,
or homophobic column,
5
18758
4769
00:35
we realized we could do
something about it.
something about it.
6
23551
2391
00:37
We could get them.
7
25966
1369
00:39
We could hit them with a weapon
that we understood but they didn't --
that we understood but they didn't --
8
27359
3452
00:42
a social media shaming.
9
30835
2175
00:45
Advertisers would withdraw
their advertising.
their advertising.
10
33744
2752
00:48
When powerful people
misused their privilege,
misused their privilege,
11
36933
3010
00:51
we were going to get them.
12
39967
1663
00:54
This was like the
democratization of justice.
democratization of justice.
13
42312
2780
00:57
Hierarchies were being leveled out.
14
45116
2403
00:59
We were going to do things better.
15
47543
1998
01:02
Soon after that, a disgraced
pop science writer called Jonah Lehrer --
pop science writer called Jonah Lehrer --
16
50755
4209
01:06
he'd been caught plagiarizing
and faking quotes,
and faking quotes,
17
54988
3135
01:10
and he was drenched in shame
and regret, he told me.
and regret, he told me.
18
58147
3732
01:13
And he had the opportunity
19
61903
1491
01:15
to publicly apologize
at a foundation lunch.
at a foundation lunch.
20
63418
3830
01:19
This was going to be the most
important speech of his life.
important speech of his life.
21
67272
2931
01:22
Maybe it would win him some salvation.
22
70227
2284
01:25
He knew before he arrived
23
73114
1329
01:26
that the foundation was going to be
live-streaming his event,
live-streaming his event,
24
74467
3079
01:29
but what he didn't know
until he turned up,
until he turned up,
25
77570
2024
01:31
was that they'd erected a giant screen
Twitter feed right next to his head.
Twitter feed right next to his head.
26
79618
4928
01:36
(Laughter)
27
84570
1492
01:38
Another one in a monitor screen
in his eye line.
in his eye line.
28
86086
2543
01:40
I don't think the foundation did this
because they were monstrous.
because they were monstrous.
29
88653
3436
01:44
I think they were clueless:
I think this was a unique moment
I think this was a unique moment
30
92113
3154
01:47
when the beautiful naivety of Twitter
31
95291
2537
01:49
was hitting the increasingly
horrific reality.
horrific reality.
32
97852
3309
01:53
And here were some of the Tweets
that were cascading into his eye line,
that were cascading into his eye line,
33
101807
3353
01:57
as he was trying to apologize:
34
105184
1726
01:58
"Jonah Lehrer, boring us
into forgiving him."
into forgiving him."
35
106934
3262
02:02
(Laughter)
36
110220
1075
02:03
And, "Jonah Lehrer has not proven
that he is capable of feeling shame."
that he is capable of feeling shame."
37
111319
4468
02:08
That one must have been written
by the best psychiatrist ever,
by the best psychiatrist ever,
38
116589
3691
02:12
to know that about such
a tiny figure behind a lectern.
a tiny figure behind a lectern.
39
120304
3475
02:16
And, "Jonah Lehrer is just
a frigging sociopath."
a frigging sociopath."
40
124135
3017
02:19
That last word is a very human thing
to do, to dehumanize the people we hurt.
to do, to dehumanize the people we hurt.
41
127874
5400
02:25
It's because we want to destroy people
but not feel bad about it.
but not feel bad about it.
42
133298
4177
02:30
Imagine if this was an actual court,
43
138503
2448
02:32
and the accused was in the dark,
begging for another chance,
begging for another chance,
44
140975
2826
02:35
and the jury was yelling out,
45
143825
1741
02:37
"Bored! Sociopath!"
46
145590
2687
02:40
(Laughter)
47
148301
1141
02:41
You know, when we watch
courtroom dramas, we tend to identify
courtroom dramas, we tend to identify
48
149466
3019
02:44
with the kindhearted defense attorney,
49
152509
2971
02:47
but give us the power,
and we become like hanging judges.
and we become like hanging judges.
50
155504
3506
02:51
Power shifts fast.
51
159846
1973
02:54
We were getting Jonah because he was
perceived to have misused his privilege,
perceived to have misused his privilege,
52
162284
4496
02:58
but Jonah was on the floor then,
and we were still kicking,
and we were still kicking,
53
166804
3283
03:02
and congratulating ourselves
for punching up.
for punching up.
54
170111
2782
03:05
And it began to feel weird and empty
when there wasn't a powerful person
when there wasn't a powerful person
55
173734
4199
03:09
who had misused their privilege
that we could get.
that we could get.
56
177957
3018
03:13
A day without a shaming
began to feel like a day
began to feel like a day
57
181332
3302
03:16
picking fingernails and treading water.
58
184658
2927
03:21
Let me tell you a story.
59
189387
1396
03:23
It's about a woman called Justine Sacco.
60
191561
2421
03:26
She was a PR woman from New York
with 170 Twitter followers,
with 170 Twitter followers,
61
194800
3944
03:30
and she'd Tweet little
acerbic jokes to them,
acerbic jokes to them,
62
198768
2956
03:33
like this one on a plane
from New York to London:
from New York to London:
63
201748
3623
03:37
[Weird German Dude: You're in first class.
It's 2014. Get some deodorant."
It's 2014. Get some deodorant."
64
205395
3511
03:40
-Inner monologue as inhale BO.
Thank god for pharmaceuticals.]
Thank god for pharmaceuticals.]
65
208930
3102
03:44
So Justine chuckled to herself,
and pressed send, and got no replies,
and pressed send, and got no replies,
66
212056
3263
03:47
and felt that sad feeling that we all feel
67
215343
2061
03:49
when the Internet doesn't
congratulate us for being funny.
congratulate us for being funny.
68
217428
3634
03:53
(Laughter)
69
221086
1171
03:54
Black silence when the Internet
doesn't talk back.
doesn't talk back.
70
222281
3123
03:58
And then she got to Heathrow,
and she had a little time to spare
and she had a little time to spare
71
226039
3143
04:01
before her final leg, so she thought up
another funny little acerbic joke:
another funny little acerbic joke:
72
229206
4776
04:06
[Going to Africa. Hope I don't get AIDS.
Just kidding. I'm white!]
Just kidding. I'm white!]
73
234006
4322
04:10
And she chuckled to herself, pressed send,
got on the plane, got no replies,
got on the plane, got no replies,
74
238352
6126
04:16
turned off her phone, fell asleep,
75
244502
2583
04:19
woke up 11 hours later,
76
247109
1989
04:21
turned on her phone while the plane
was taxiing on the runway,
was taxiing on the runway,
77
249122
3594
04:24
and straightaway there was
a message from somebody
a message from somebody
78
252740
2357
04:27
that she hadn't spoken
to since high school,
to since high school,
79
255121
2096
04:29
that said, "I am so sorry
to see what's happening to you."
to see what's happening to you."
80
257241
4747
04:35
And then another message
from a best friend,
from a best friend,
81
263012
2781
04:37
"You need to call me right now.
82
265817
2014
04:39
You are the worldwide number one
trending topic on Twitter."
trending topic on Twitter."
83
267855
4013
04:43
(Laughter)
84
271892
1710
04:46
What had happened is that one
of her 170 followers had sent the Tweet
of her 170 followers had sent the Tweet
85
274254
3450
04:49
to a Gawker journalist, and he
retweeted it to his 15,000 followers:
retweeted it to his 15,000 followers:
86
277728
4900
04:55
[And now, a funny holiday joke
from IAC's PR boss]
from IAC's PR boss]
87
283506
2366
04:57
And then it was like a bolt of lightning.
88
285896
1963
04:59
A few weeks later, I talked
to the Gawker journalist.
to the Gawker journalist.
89
287883
2502
05:02
I emailed him and asked him how it felt,
and he said, "It felt delicious."
and he said, "It felt delicious."
90
290409
3688
05:06
And then he said,
"But I'm sure she's fine."
"But I'm sure she's fine."
91
294121
2882
05:09
But she wasn't fine,
because while she slept,
because while she slept,
92
297650
3111
05:12
Twitter took control of her life
and dismantled it piece by piece.
and dismantled it piece by piece.
93
300785
5484
05:19
First there were the philanthropists:
94
307147
2395
05:21
[If @JustineSacco's unfortunate
words ... bother you,
words ... bother you,
95
309566
2482
05:24
join me in supporting
@CARE's work in Africa.]
@CARE's work in Africa.]
96
312072
2147
05:26
[In light of ... disgusting,
racist tweet, I'm donating to @care today]
racist tweet, I'm donating to @care today]
97
314243
3789
05:30
Then came the beyond horrified:
98
318056
1491
05:31
[... no words for that horribly disgusting
racist as fuck tweet from Justine Sacco.
racist as fuck tweet from Justine Sacco.
99
319571
4016
05:35
I am beyond horrified.]
100
323611
1151
05:36
Was anybody on Twitter
that night? A few of you.
that night? A few of you.
101
324786
2253
05:39
Did Justine's joke overwhelm
your Twitter feed the way it did mine?
your Twitter feed the way it did mine?
102
327063
3470
05:42
It did mine, and I thought
what everybody thought that night,
what everybody thought that night,
103
330557
2892
05:45
which was, "Wow, somebody's screwed!
104
333473
3088
05:48
Somebody's life is about to get terrible!"
105
336585
2340
05:50
And I sat up in my bed,
106
338949
1308
05:52
and I put the pillow behind my head,
107
340281
2924
05:55
and then I thought, I'm not entirely sure
that joke was intended to be racist.
that joke was intended to be racist.
108
343229
5247
06:00
Maybe instead of gleefully
flaunting her privilege,
flaunting her privilege,
109
348500
2762
06:03
she was mocking the gleeful
flaunting of privilege.
flaunting of privilege.
110
351286
2600
06:05
There's a comedy tradition of this,
111
353910
1813
06:07
like South Park or Colbert
or Randy Newman.
or Randy Newman.
112
355747
3688
06:11
Maybe Justine Sacco's crime was not being
as good at it as Randy Newman.
as good at it as Randy Newman.
113
359459
4445
06:16
In fact, when I met Justine
a couple of weeks later in a bar,
a couple of weeks later in a bar,
114
364444
2920
06:19
she was just crushed,
115
367388
2089
06:21
and I asked her to explain the joke,
116
369501
1949
06:23
and she said, "Living in America
puts us in a bit of a bubble
puts us in a bit of a bubble
117
371474
3635
06:27
when it comes to what is going on
in the Third World.
in the Third World.
118
375133
2494
06:29
I was making of fun of that bubble."
119
377651
2197
06:32
You know, another woman on Twitter that
night, a New Statesman writer Helen Lewis,
night, a New Statesman writer Helen Lewis,
120
380848
3886
06:36
she reviewed my book on public shaming
and wrote that she Tweeted that night,
and wrote that she Tweeted that night,
121
384758
3648
06:40
"I'm not sure that her joke
was intended to be racist,"
was intended to be racist,"
122
388430
3290
06:43
and she said straightaway she got
a fury of Tweets saying,
a fury of Tweets saying,
123
391744
2739
06:46
"Well, you're just
a privileged bitch, too."
a privileged bitch, too."
124
394507
2453
06:48
And so to her shame, she wrote,
125
396984
2236
06:51
she shut up and watched
as Justine's life got torn apart.
as Justine's life got torn apart.
126
399244
4532
06:57
It started to get darker:
127
405697
1809
06:59
[Everyone go report
this cunt @JustineSacco]
this cunt @JustineSacco]
128
407530
2910
07:02
Then came the calls for her to be fired.
129
410464
2586
07:05
[Good luck with the job hunt
in the new year. #GettingFired]
in the new year. #GettingFired]
130
413074
2872
07:07
Thousands of people around the world
131
415970
1735
07:09
decided it was their duty
to get her fired.
to get her fired.
132
417729
3527
07:13
[@JustineSacco last tweet
of your career. #SorryNotSorry
of your career. #SorryNotSorry
133
421280
3170
07:17
Corporations got involved,
hoping to sell their products
hoping to sell their products
134
425162
3175
07:20
on the back of Justine's annihilation:
135
428361
2357
07:22
[Next time you plan to tweet something
stupid before you take off,
stupid before you take off,
136
430742
3217
07:25
make sure you are getting
on a @Gogo flight!]
on a @Gogo flight!]
137
433983
2151
07:28
(Laughter)
138
436158
2406
07:30
A lot of companies were making
good money that night.
good money that night.
139
438588
2606
07:33
You know, Justine's name was normally
Googled 40 times a month.
Googled 40 times a month.
140
441218
3917
07:37
That month, between December the 20th
and the end of December,
and the end of December,
141
445159
3328
07:40
her name was Googled 1,220,000 times.
142
448511
4753
07:45
And one Internet economist told me
that that meant that Google made
that that meant that Google made
143
453893
3525
07:49
somewhere between 120,000 dollars
and 468,000 dollars
and 468,000 dollars
144
457442
5010
07:54
from Justine's annihilation, whereas
those of us doing the actual shaming --
those of us doing the actual shaming --
145
462476
4066
07:58
we got nothing.
146
466566
1154
07:59
(Laughter)
147
467744
1000
08:00
We were like unpaid
shaming interns for Google.
shaming interns for Google.
148
468768
3450
08:04
(Laughter)
149
472242
3287
08:07
And then came the trolls:
150
475553
2396
08:09
[I'm actually kind of hoping
Justine Sacco gets aids? lol]
Justine Sacco gets aids? lol]
151
477973
2731
08:12
Somebody else on that wrote,
152
480728
1406
08:14
"Somebody HIV-positive should rape
this bitch and then we'll find out
this bitch and then we'll find out
153
482158
3249
08:17
if her skin color protects her from AIDS."
154
485431
2079
08:19
And that person got a free pass.
155
487534
2579
08:22
Nobody went after that person.
156
490137
2087
08:24
We were all so excited
about destroying Justine,
about destroying Justine,
157
492248
2635
08:26
and our shaming brains
are so simple-minded,
are so simple-minded,
158
494907
2627
08:29
that we couldn't also handle
destroying somebody
destroying somebody
159
497558
2385
08:31
who was inappropriately
destroying Justine.
destroying Justine.
160
499967
2937
08:35
Justine was really uniting
a lot of disparate groups that night,
a lot of disparate groups that night,
161
503695
3528
08:39
from philanthropists to "rape the bitch."
162
507247
2936
08:42
[@JustineSacco I hope you get fired!
You demented bitch...
You demented bitch...
163
510667
3839
08:46
Just let the world know you're planning
to ride bare back while in Africa.]
to ride bare back while in Africa.]
164
514530
3588
08:50
Women always have it worse than men.
165
518142
2025
08:52
When a man gets shamed, it's,
"I'm going to get you fired."
"I'm going to get you fired."
166
520191
3101
08:55
When a woman gets shamed, it's,
167
523316
1698
08:57
"I'm going to get you fired
and raped and cut out your uterus."
and raped and cut out your uterus."
168
525038
4881
09:01
And then Justine's employers got involved:
169
529943
2409
09:04
[IAC on @JustineSacco tweet: This is an
outrageous, offensive comment.
outrageous, offensive comment.
170
532376
3306
09:07
Employee in question currently
unreachable on an intl flight.]
unreachable on an intl flight.]
171
535706
2974
09:10
And that's when the anger
turned to excitement:
turned to excitement:
172
538704
2198
09:12
[All I want for Christmas is to see
@JustineSacco's face when her plane lands
@JustineSacco's face when her plane lands
173
540926
3622
09:16
and she checks
her inbox/voicemail. #fired]
her inbox/voicemail. #fired]
174
544572
2001
09:18
[Oh man, @justinesacco
is going to have the most painful
is going to have the most painful
175
546597
2691
09:21
phone-turning-on moment ever
when her plane lands.]
when her plane lands.]
176
549312
2399
09:23
[We are about to watch this @JustineSacco
bitch get fired. In REAL time.
bitch get fired. In REAL time.
177
551735
3416
09:27
Before she even KNOWS
she's getting fired.]
she's getting fired.]
178
555175
2024
09:29
What we had was
a delightful narrative arc.
a delightful narrative arc.
179
557223
2013
09:31
We knew something that Justine didn't.
180
559260
1825
09:33
Can you think of anything
less judicial than this?
less judicial than this?
181
561109
2341
09:35
Justine was asleep on a plane
and unable to explain herself,
and unable to explain herself,
182
563474
2877
09:38
and her inability was
a huge part of the hilarity.
a huge part of the hilarity.
183
566375
3563
09:42
On Twitter that night, we were
like toddlers crawling towards a gun.
like toddlers crawling towards a gun.
184
570529
4388
09:47
Somebody worked out exactly
which plane she was on, so they linked
which plane she was on, so they linked
185
575660
3134
09:50
to a flight tracker website.
186
578818
2099
09:52
[British Airways Flight 43
On-time - arrives in 1 hour 34 minutes]
On-time - arrives in 1 hour 34 minutes]
187
580941
3112
09:56
A hashtag began trending worldwide:
188
584077
2455
09:58
# hasJustineLandedYet?
189
586556
2602
10:01
[It is kinda wild
to see someone self-destruct
to see someone self-destruct
190
589182
2166
10:03
without them even being aware of it.
#hasJustineLandedYet]
#hasJustineLandedYet]
191
591372
2723
10:06
[Seriously. I just want to go home
to go to bed, but everyone at the bar
to go to bed, but everyone at the bar
192
594119
3394
10:09
is SO into #HasJustineLandedYet.
Can't look away. Can't leave.]
Can't look away. Can't leave.]
193
597537
2960
10:12
[#HasJustineLandedYet may be the best
thing to happen to my Friday night.]
thing to happen to my Friday night.]
194
600521
3486
10:16
[Is no one in Cape Town going
to the airport to tweet her arrival?
to the airport to tweet her arrival?
195
604031
3103
10:19
Come on, twitter! I'd like pictures]
196
607158
1719
10:20
And guess what? Yes there was.
197
608901
1516
10:22
[@JustineSacco HAS in fact landed
at Cape Town international.
at Cape Town international.
198
610441
2866
10:25
And if you want to know
what it looks like to discover
what it looks like to discover
199
613331
2532
10:27
that you've just been torn to shreds
because of a misconstrued liberal joke,
because of a misconstrued liberal joke,
200
615887
3575
10:31
not by trolls, but by nice people like us,
201
619486
2008
10:33
this is what it looks like:
202
621518
1546
10:35
[... She's decided to wear
sunnies as a disguise.]
sunnies as a disguise.]
203
623088
2654
10:37
So why did we do it?
204
625766
1453
10:39
I think some people were genuinely upset,
205
627933
2901
10:42
but I think for other people,
206
630858
1428
10:44
it's because Twitter is basically
a mutual approval machine.
a mutual approval machine.
207
632310
3023
10:47
We surround ourselves with people
who feel the same way we do,
who feel the same way we do,
208
635357
2919
10:50
and we approve each other,
209
638300
1263
10:51
and that's a really good feeling.
210
639587
1651
10:53
And if somebody gets in the way,
we screen them out.
we screen them out.
211
641262
2648
10:55
And do you know what
that's the opposite of?
that's the opposite of?
212
643934
2087
10:58
It's the opposite of democracy.
213
646045
1741
11:00
We wanted to show that we cared
about people dying of AIDS in Africa.
about people dying of AIDS in Africa.
214
648336
3997
11:04
Our desire to be seen to be compassionate
is what led us to commit
is what led us to commit
215
652357
4007
11:08
this profoundly un-compassionate act.
216
656388
3045
11:11
As Meghan O'Gieblyn wrote
in the Boston Review,
in the Boston Review,
217
659887
2530
11:14
"This isn't social justice.
It's a cathartic alternative."
It's a cathartic alternative."
218
662441
4411
11:19
For the past three years,
219
667686
1199
11:20
I've been going around the world
meeting people like Justine Sacco --
meeting people like Justine Sacco --
220
668909
3278
11:24
and believe me, there's a lot
of people like Justine Sacco.
of people like Justine Sacco.
221
672211
2784
11:27
There's more every day.
222
675019
1706
11:28
And we want to think they're fine,
but they're not fine.
but they're not fine.
223
676749
3292
11:32
The people I met were mangled.
224
680065
2135
11:34
They talked to me about depression,
225
682224
1841
11:36
and anxiety and insomnia
and suicidal thoughts.
and suicidal thoughts.
226
684089
3916
11:40
One woman I talked to,
who also told a joke that landed badly,
who also told a joke that landed badly,
227
688029
4739
11:44
she stayed home for a year and a half.
228
692792
2214
11:47
Before that, she worked with adults
with learning difficulties,
with learning difficulties,
229
695427
4442
11:51
and was apparently really good at her job.
230
699893
2438
11:55
Justine was fired, of course,
because social media demanded it.
because social media demanded it.
231
703306
3869
11:59
But it was worse than that.
232
707607
1744
12:01
She was losing herself.
233
709375
1959
12:03
She was waking up in the middle
of the night, forgetting who she was.
of the night, forgetting who she was.
234
711358
4060
12:08
She was got because she was perceived
to have misused her privilege.
to have misused her privilege.
235
716079
3956
12:12
And of course, that's a much better thing
to get people for than the things
to get people for than the things
236
720059
3561
12:15
we used to get people for,
like having children out of wedlock.
like having children out of wedlock.
237
723644
3160
12:18
But the phrase "misuse of privilege"
is becoming a free pass
is becoming a free pass
238
726828
2831
12:21
to tear apart pretty much
anybody we choose to.
anybody we choose to.
239
729683
3428
12:25
It's becoming a devalued term,
240
733135
2306
12:27
and it's making us lose
our capacity for empathy
our capacity for empathy
241
735465
2985
12:30
and for distinguishing between serious
and unserious transgressions.
and unserious transgressions.
242
738474
4920
12:36
Justine had 170 Twitter followers,
and so to make it work,
and so to make it work,
243
744334
3529
12:39
she had to be fictionalized.
244
747887
1969
12:41
Word got around that she was the daughter
the mining billionaire Desmond Sacco.
the mining billionaire Desmond Sacco.
245
749880
4815
12:46
[Let us not be fooled by #JustineSacco
her father is a SA mining billionaire.
her father is a SA mining billionaire.
246
754719
3624
12:50
She's not sorry.
And neither is her father.]
And neither is her father.]
247
758367
2055
12:52
I thought that was true about Justine,
248
760446
1823
12:54
until I met her at a bar, and I asked her
about her billionaire father,
about her billionaire father,
249
762293
3338
12:57
and she said, "My father sells carpets."
250
765655
1913
12:59
And I think back on
the early days of Twitter,
the early days of Twitter,
251
767592
2157
13:01
when people would admit
shameful secrets about themselves,
shameful secrets about themselves,
252
769773
2730
13:04
and other people would say,
"Oh my God, I'm exactly the same."
"Oh my God, I'm exactly the same."
253
772527
2926
13:07
These days, the hunt is on
for people's shameful secrets.
for people's shameful secrets.
254
775477
4173
13:11
You can lead a good, ethical life,
255
779674
2042
13:13
but some bad phraseology in a Tweet
can overwhelm it all,
can overwhelm it all,
256
781740
4434
13:18
become a clue to your secret inner evil.
257
786198
2984
13:21
Maybe there's two types
of people in the world:
of people in the world:
258
789797
2439
13:24
those people who favor
humans over ideology,
humans over ideology,
259
792260
3527
13:27
and those people who favor
ideology over humans.
ideology over humans.
260
795811
2906
13:31
I favor humans over ideology,
261
799107
2648
13:33
but right now, the ideologues are winning,
262
801779
2761
13:36
and they're creating a stage
for constant artificial high dramas
for constant artificial high dramas
263
804564
4670
13:41
where everybody's either
a magnificent hero
a magnificent hero
264
809258
2428
13:43
or a sickening villain,
265
811710
1608
13:45
even though we know that's not true
about our fellow humans.
about our fellow humans.
266
813342
3017
13:48
What's true is that
we are clever and stupid;
we are clever and stupid;
267
816383
3986
13:52
what's true is that we're grey areas.
268
820393
3186
13:55
The great thing about social media
was how it gave a voice
was how it gave a voice
269
823603
2878
13:58
to voiceless people,
270
826505
1396
13:59
but we're now creating
a surveillance society,
a surveillance society,
271
827925
2654
14:02
where the smartest way to survive
is to go back to being voiceless.
is to go back to being voiceless.
272
830603
4350
14:07
Let's not do that.
273
835423
1433
14:08
Thank you.
274
836880
1152
14:10
(Applause)
275
838056
5718
14:21
Bruno Giussani: Thank you, Jon.
276
849410
1485
14:22
Jon Ronson: Thanks, Bruno.
277
850919
1246
14:24
BG: Don't go away.
278
852189
1174
14:26
What strikes me about Justine's story
279
854939
1795
14:28
is also the fact that if you
Google her name today,
Google her name today,
280
856758
2433
14:31
this story covers the first
100 pages of Google results --
100 pages of Google results --
281
859215
2747
14:33
there is nothing else about her.
282
861986
2212
14:36
In your book, you mention another story
283
864222
2588
14:38
of another victim who actually got
taken on by a reputation management firm,
taken on by a reputation management firm,
284
866834
4531
14:43
and by creating blogs and posting nice,
innocuous stories about her love for cats
innocuous stories about her love for cats
285
871389
5084
14:48
and holidays and stuff,
managed to get the story
managed to get the story
286
876497
2716
14:51
off the first couple pages of Google
results, but it didn't last long.
results, but it didn't last long.
287
879237
3923
14:55
A couple of weeks later, they started
creeping back up to the top result.
creeping back up to the top result.
288
883184
4953
15:00
Is this a totally lost battle?
289
888161
1948
15:02
Jon Ronson: You know, I think
the very best thing we can do,
the very best thing we can do,
290
890483
2834
15:05
if you see a kind of unfair
or an ambiguous shaming,
or an ambiguous shaming,
291
893341
4574
15:09
is to speak up, because I think
the worst thing that happened to Justine
the worst thing that happened to Justine
292
897939
3400
15:13
was that nobody supported her --
like, everyone was against her,
like, everyone was against her,
293
901363
3016
15:16
and that is profoundly traumatizing,
294
904403
1725
15:18
to be told by tens of thousands of people
that you need to get out.
that you need to get out.
295
906152
3822
15:21
But if a shaming happens and there's
a babble of voices, like in a democracy,
a babble of voices, like in a democracy,
296
909998
4090
15:26
where people are discussing it,
I think that's much less damaging.
I think that's much less damaging.
297
914112
3096
15:29
So I think that's the way forward,
298
917232
1627
15:30
but it's hard, because if you do
stand up for somebody,
stand up for somebody,
299
918883
2596
15:33
it's incredibly unpleasant.
300
921503
1696
15:35
BG: So let's talk about your experience,
301
923223
1920
15:37
because you stood up by writing this book.
302
925167
2008
15:39
By the way, it's mandatory
reading for everybody, okay?
reading for everybody, okay?
303
927199
2589
15:41
You stood up because the book
actually puts the spotlight on shamers.
actually puts the spotlight on shamers.
304
929812
4310
15:46
And I assume you didn't only
have friendly reactions on Twitter.
have friendly reactions on Twitter.
305
934146
3032
15:49
JR: It didn't go down that well
with some people.
with some people.
306
937202
2680
15:51
(Laughter)
307
939906
1001
15:52
I mean, you don't want
to just concentrate --
to just concentrate --
308
940931
2104
15:55
because lots of people understood,
and were really nice about the book.
and were really nice about the book.
309
943059
3397
15:58
But yeah, for 30 years I've been writing
stories about abuses of power,
stories about abuses of power,
310
946480
3353
16:01
and when I say the powerful people
over there in the military,
over there in the military,
311
949857
3280
16:05
or in the pharmaceutical industry,
everybody applauds me.
everybody applauds me.
312
953161
2768
16:07
As soon as I say, "We are the powerful
people abusing our power now,"
people abusing our power now,"
313
955953
4375
16:12
I get people saying,
"Well you must be a racist too."
"Well you must be a racist too."
314
960352
2724
16:15
BG: So the other night --
yesterday -- we were at dinner,
yesterday -- we were at dinner,
315
963100
2675
16:17
and there were two discussions going on.
316
965799
1915
16:19
On one side you were talking
with people around the table --
with people around the table --
317
967738
3048
16:22
and that was a nice,
constructive discussion.
constructive discussion.
318
970810
2163
16:24
On the other, every time
you turned to your phone,
you turned to your phone,
319
972997
2347
16:27
there is this deluge of insults.
320
975368
1561
16:28
JR: Yeah. This happened last night.
We had like a TED dinner last night.
We had like a TED dinner last night.
321
976953
3391
16:32
We were chatting and it was lovely
and nice, and I decided to check Twitter.
and nice, and I decided to check Twitter.
322
980368
3800
16:36
Somebody said, "You are
a white supremacist."
a white supremacist."
323
984192
2120
16:38
And then I went back and had
a nice conversation with somebody,
a nice conversation with somebody,
324
986336
2974
16:41
and then I went back to Twitter,
325
989334
1541
16:42
somebody said my very existence
made the world a worse place.
made the world a worse place.
326
990899
3088
16:46
My friend Adam Curtis says
327
994011
2747
16:48
that maybe the Internet is like
a John Carpenter movie from the 1980s,
a John Carpenter movie from the 1980s,
328
996782
3808
16:52
when eventually everyone
will start screaming at each other
will start screaming at each other
329
1000614
3041
16:55
and shooting each other,
and then eventually everybody
and then eventually everybody
330
1003679
2530
16:58
would flee to somewhere safer,
331
1006233
1996
17:00
and I'm starting to think of that
as a really nice option.
as a really nice option.
332
1008253
3900
17:04
BG: Jon, thank you.
JR: Thank you, Bruno.
JR: Thank you, Bruno.
333
1012177
1953
17:06
(Applause)
334
1014154
3998
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Jon Ronson - Writer, filmmakerJon Ronson is a writer and documentary filmmaker who dips into every flavor of madness, extremism and obsession.
Why you should listen
For his latest book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed, Jon Ronson spent three years traveling the world and talking to people who'd been subjected to high-profile public shamings. Whatever their transgression, the response was to be faced by an angry mob, as Ronson calls them "collective outrage circles" devoted to tearing down said person from any position of power. It does not, Ronson suggests gently, reflect so well on society as a whole.
In a previous book, The Psychopath Test, Ronson explored the unnerving world of psychopaths -- a group that includes both incarcerated killers and, one of his subjects insists, plenty of CEOs. In his books, films and articles, Ronson explores madness and obsession of all kinds, from the US military's experiments in psychic warfare to the obscene and hate-filled yet Christian rap of the Insane Clown Posse. He wrote a column for the Guardian, hosted an essay program on Radio 4 in the United Kingdom, and contributes to This American Life.
Jon Ronson | Speaker | TED.com