TEDxPeachtree
Frans de Waal: Moral behavior in animals
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Empathy, cooperation, fairness and reciprocity -- caring about the well-being of others seems like a very human trait. But Frans de Waal shares some surprising videos of behavioral tests, on primates and other mammals, that show how many of these moral traits all of us share.
Frans de Waal - Primatologist
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio
Frans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I was born in Den Bosch,
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Nacín en Den Bosch
00:17
where the painter Hieronymus Bosch named himself after.
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onde o pintor Hieronymus Bosch
tomou o seu nome
tomou o seu nome
00:20
And so I've always been very fond of this painter
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por iso sempre me sentín
moi preto del,
moi preto del,
00:22
who lived and worked in the 15th century.
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que viviu e traballou no século XV.
00:25
And what is interesting about him in relation to morality
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O interesante entre el e a moralidade
00:27
is that he lived at a time where religion's influence was waning,
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é que viviu cando a influencia
da relixión minguaba
da relixión minguaba
00:30
and he was sort of wondering, I think,
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e foi unha persoa que se preguntaba
00:32
what would happen with society
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que lle sucedería á sociedade
00:34
if there was no religion or if there was less religion.
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se non houbese relixión ou
se non a houbese.
se non a houbese.
00:37
And so he painted this famous painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights,"
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E por iso pintou o seu famoso
cadro: "o Xardín das Delicias"
cadro: "o Xardín das Delicias"
00:40
which some have interpreted
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que algúns intrerpretan
00:42
as being humanity before the Fall,
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a humanidade sen perder Inocencia
00:44
or being humanity without any Fall at all.
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ou a humanidade sen
ningunha perda en absoluto.
ningunha perda en absoluto.
00:47
And so it makes you wonder,
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E iso fai que se pregunten,
00:49
what would happen if we hadn't tasted the fruit of knowledge, so to speak,
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que tería sucedido se non probaramos
da froita da sabedoría,
da froita da sabedoría,
00:52
and what kind of morality would we have?
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que tipo de moralidade teriamos?
00:55
Much later, as a student,
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Máis tarde, como estudante,
00:57
I went to a very different garden,
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fun a un xardín moi diferente,
00:59
a zoological garden in Arnhem
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o xardín zoolóxico de Arnhem
01:02
where we keep chimpanzees.
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onde viven chimpancés.
01:04
This is me at an early age with a baby chimpanzee.
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Este son eu moi novo cun bebé chimpancé.
01:06
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
01:09
And I discovered there
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E alí descubrín
01:11
that the chimpanzees are very power hungry and wrote a book about it.
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que eles teñen fame de poder
e escribín un libro sobre iso.
e escribín un libro sobre iso.
01:14
And at that time the focus in a lot of animal research
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Daquela a atención na investigación animal
01:17
was on aggression and competition.
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estaba na agresión e na competencia.
01:19
I painted a whole picture of the animal kingdom,
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Retratei unha imaxe do reino animal,
01:21
and humanity included,
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e incluín a Humanidade,
01:23
was that deep down we are competitors,
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eramos no fondo competidores,
01:25
we are aggressive,
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agresivos,
01:27
we're all out for our own profit basically.
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movémonos polo noso propio beneficio.
01:30
This is the launch of my book.
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Este é o inicio do meu libro.
01:32
I'm not sure how well the chimpanzees read it,
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Non sei se os chimpacés o leron,
01:34
but they surely seemed interested in the book.
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mais pareceron interesados no libro.
01:39
Now in the process
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Durante o proceso
01:41
of doing all this work on power and dominance
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todo este traballo sobre o poder
01:43
and aggression and so on,
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a dominación, a agresión...
01:45
I discovered that chimpanzees reconcile after fights.
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descubrín que os chimpancés se reconcilian
despois das liortas.
despois das liortas.
01:48
And so what you see here is two males who have had a fight.
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O que ven aquí son dous machos
que acaban de rifar.
que acaban de rifar.
01:51
They ended up in a tree, and one of them holds out a hand to the other.
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Rematan na copa da árbore,
sostendo a man doutro.
sostendo a man doutro.
01:54
And about a second after I took the picture, they came together in the fork of the tree
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Segundos máis tarde fixen a foto,
xuntos na galla da árbore
xuntos na galla da árbore
01:57
and they kissed and embraced each other.
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bicándose e apertándose un a outro.
01:59
Now this is very interesting
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Isto é moi interesante
02:01
because at the time everything was about competition and aggression,
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porque daquela todo era arredor
da competencia e da agresión,
da competencia e da agresión,
02:04
and so it wouldn't make any sense.
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así que non tería sentido.
02:06
The only thing that matters is that you win or that you lose.
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O único que importa é se gañas ou perdes.
02:08
But why would you reconcile after a fight?
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Por que reconciliarse
despois de rifar?
despois de rifar?
02:10
That doesn't make any sense.
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Non ten sentido.
02:12
This is the way bonobos do it. Bonobos do everything with sex.
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Esta é a forma na que os bonobos o fan.
Usan o sexo para todo.
Usan o sexo para todo.
02:15
And so they also reconcile with sex.
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Así que tamén para se reconciliaren.
02:17
But the principle is exactly the same.
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Mais o principio é exactamente o mesmo.
02:19
The principle is that you have
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A máxima é que tes
02:21
a valuable relationship
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unha relación valiosa
02:23
that is damaged by conflict,
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que está danada por un conflito,
02:25
so you need to do something about it.
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así que necesitas facer algo.
02:27
So my whole picture of the animal kingdom,
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Daquela a miña idea do reino animal,
02:29
and including humans also,
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e inclúo tamén aos humanos,
02:31
started to change at that time.
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empezou a mudar naquela altura.
02:33
So we have this image
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Ben, temos esta imaxe
02:35
in political science, economics, the humanities,
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en ciencias políticas, económicas,
02:37
philosophy for that matter,
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humanidades e filosofía,
02:39
that man is a wolf to man.
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que o home é un lobo para o home.
02:41
And so deep down our nature's actually nasty.
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Así que o máis profundo da nosa
natureza é noxenta.
natureza é noxenta.
02:44
I think it's a very unfair image for the wolf.
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Eu creo que a imaxe é moi inxusta co lobo.
02:47
The wolf is, after all,
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O lobo
02:49
a very cooperative animal.
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é un animal moi cooperativo.
02:51
And that's why many of you have a dog at home,
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Razón pola que teñen un can na casa,
02:53
which has all these characteristics also.
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que ademais ten estas características.
02:55
And it's really unfair to humanity,
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E é moi inxusto coa humanidade,
02:57
because humanity is actually much more cooperative and empathic
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porque a humanidade é sen dúbida
moito máis cooperativa e empática
moito máis cooperativa e empática
03:01
than given credit for.
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do que se cre.
03:03
So I started getting interested in those issues
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Empecei a interesarme por eses temas
03:05
and studying that in other animals.
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e a estudalos noutros animais.
03:07
So these are the pillars of morality.
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Estes son os alicerces da moralidade.
03:09
If you ask anyone, "What is morality based on?"
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Se preguntas a alguén: "en que
se basa a moralidade?"
se basa a moralidade?"
03:13
these are the two factors that always come out.
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os dous factores que sempre aparecen son
03:15
One is reciprocity,
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a reciprocidade,
03:17
and associated with it is a sense of justice and a sense of fairness.
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asociada a ela está a noción de xustiza
e o senso de equidade.
e o senso de equidade.
03:20
And the other one is empathy and compassion.
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E a outra é a empatía e a compaixón.
03:22
And human morality is more than this,
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E a moralidade humana é máis ca isto,
03:25
but if you would remove these two pillars,
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pero se retiran estes dous piares,
03:27
there would be not much remaining I think.
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non ficaría, creo, moito.
03:29
And so they're absolutely essential.
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Polo que son absolutamente esenciais.
03:31
So let me give you a few examples here.
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Permítanme aportarlles dous exemplos.
03:33
This is a very old video from the Yerkes Primate Center
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Este vídeo vello do Yerkes
Primate Center
Primate Center
03:35
where they train chimpanzees to cooperate.
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onde adestraban chimpacés para cooperar.
03:38
So this is already about a hundred years ago
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Aproximadamente hai uns cen anos
03:41
that we were doing experiments on cooperation.
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que estamos a facer experimentos
sobre a cooperación.
sobre a cooperación.
03:44
What you have here is two young chimpanzees who have a box,
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O que teñen aquí son dous chimpacés novos
que teñen unha caixa,
que teñen unha caixa,
03:47
and the box is too heavy for one chimp to pull in.
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a caixa é demasiado pesada para que
un chimpancé turra só dela.
un chimpancé turra só dela.
03:50
And of course, there's food on the box.
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Por suposto, dentro da caixa hai comida,
03:52
Otherwise they wouldn't be pulling so hard.
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senón non turrarían tan forte.
03:54
And so they're bringing in the box.
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Aquí vémolos turrando da caixa.
03:56
And you can see that they're synchronized.
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E poden observar que están sincronizados.
03:58
You can see that they work together, they pull at the same moment.
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Poden ver que traballan xuntos,
turran ao mesmo tempo.
turran ao mesmo tempo.
04:01
It's already a big advance over many other animals
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É un gran avance con respecto
a outros animais
a outros animais
04:04
who wouldn't be able to do that.
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incapaces de facer tal cousa.
04:06
And now you're going to get a more interesting picture,
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Agora temos unha imaxe máis interesante,
04:08
because now one of the two chimps has been fed.
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porque un dos chimpancés recibe comida.
04:11
So one of the two is not really interested
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Aquí un dos dous xa non quere colaborar
04:13
in the task anymore.
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no asunto
04:16
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
04:23
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
04:34
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
04:50
Now look at what happens at the very end of this.
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Agora ollen o que pasa ao final.
04:56
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
05:07
He takes basically everything.
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Adónase basicamente de todo.
05:09
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
05:12
So there are two interesting parts about this.
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Hai dúas cousas interesantes aquí.
05:14
One is that the chimp on the right
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Un é que o chimpacé da dereita
05:16
has a full understanding he needs the partner --
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entende que necesita un parceiro,
05:18
so a full understanding of the need for cooperation.
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e entende que necesita cooperación.
05:20
The second one is that the partner is willing to work
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O segundo ten intención de traballar
05:23
even though he's not interested in the food.
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aínda que non está interesado na comida.
05:25
Why would that be? Well that probably has to do with reciprocity.
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Poida que teña que ver coa reciprocidade.
05:28
There's actually a lot of evidence in primates and other animals
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Hai evidencias en primates
05:30
that they return favors.
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e outros animais que devolven os favores.
05:32
So he will get a return favor
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Conseguirá que lle devolva o favor
05:34
at some point in the future.
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máis adiante.
05:36
And so that's how this all operates.
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Así como todo isto funciona.
05:38
We do the same task with elephants.
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Fixemos o mesmo con elefantes.
05:40
Now with elephants, it's very dangerous to work with elephants.
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É moi perigoso traballarmos con elefantes.
05:43
Another problem with elephants
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Outro problema con eles
05:45
is that you cannot make an apparatus
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é que non podes facer aparatos
05:47
that is too heavy for a single elephant.
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xa que son demasiado pesados.
05:49
Now you can probably make it,
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Agora podes probablemente facelo,
05:51
but it's going to be a pretty flimsy apparatus I think.
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mais acho que será un trebello moi fráxil.
05:53
And so what we did in that case --
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Así que o que fixemos nesta ocasión
05:55
we do these studies in Thailand for Josh Plotnik --
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foi levar adiante estes estudos
en Tailandia por Josh Plotnik
en Tailandia por Josh Plotnik
05:58
is we have an apparatus around which there is a rope, a single rope.
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e facer un aparato circular que ten
unha única corda
unha única corda
06:01
And if you pull on this side of the rope,
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e se turras deste lado da corda,
06:03
the rope disappears on the other side.
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a corda desaparece doutro lado.
06:05
So two elephants need to pick it up at exactly the same time and pull.
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Dous elefantes teñen que turraren delas
á vez.
á vez.
06:08
Otherwise nothing is going to happen
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Se non o fan nada sucederá
06:10
and the rope disappears.
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e a corda desaparece.
06:12
And the first tape you're going to see
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Na primeira gravación que van ver
06:14
is two elephants who are released together
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hai dous elefantes que ceibamos a un tempo
06:16
arrive at the apparatus.
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e chegan até o trebello.
06:18
The apparatus is on the left with food on it.
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O aparato está á esquerda con comida.
06:21
And so they come together, they arrive together,
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Van xuntos, chegan xuntos.
06:24
they pick it up together and they pull together.
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Recollen e turran xuntos pola corda.
06:26
So it's actually fairly simple for them.
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Para eles é algo moi sinxelo.
06:30
There they are.
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Velaquí.
06:39
And so that's how they bring it in.
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E así é como o traen.
06:41
But now we're going to make it more difficult.
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Mais agora ímolo facer máis difícil.
06:43
Because the whole purpose of this experiment
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Porque o propósito deste experimento
06:45
is to see how well they understand cooperation.
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é saber o ben que entenden a cooperación.
06:47
Do they understand that as well as the chimps, for example?
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Enténdena tan ben como os chimpancés,
por exemplo?
por exemplo?
06:50
And so what we do in the next step
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O noso seguinte paso é
06:52
is we release one elephant before the other,
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ceibar un elefante antes ca o outro,
06:54
and that elephant needs to be smart enough
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e ese elefante necesita ser intelixente
06:56
to stay there and wait and not pull at the rope --
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para ficar alí e agardar sen turrar
06:58
because if he pulls at the rope, it disappears and the whole test is over.
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porque se turra, desaparece
e todo o experimento remata.
e todo o experimento remata.
07:01
Now this elephant does something illegal
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Agora este elefante fai algo ilegal
07:03
that we did not teach it.
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que nós non lle ensinamos.
07:05
But it shows the understanding that he has,
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Mais explica o entendemento que ten,
07:07
because he puts his big foot on the rope,
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porque pon a súa pata sobre a corda,
fica sobre ela
fica sobre ela
07:10
stands on the rope and waits there for the other,
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e espera até que o outro chega,
07:12
and then the other is going to do all the work for him.
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así o outro fará todo o traballo por el.
07:15
So it's what we call freeloading.
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Iso é que chamamos "a sopa boba".
07:18
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
07:20
But it shows the intelligence that the elephants have.
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Isto amosa a intelixencia que teñen.
07:23
They develop several of these alternative techniques
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Desenvolven varias destas
técnicas alternativas
técnicas alternativas
07:26
that we did not approve of necessarily.
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que non aprobamos necesariamente.
07:29
So the other elephant is now coming
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Agora o outro elefante aparece
07:34
and is going to pull it in.
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e disponse a turrar da corda
07:53
Now look at the other. The other doesn't forget to eat, of course.
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Agora olla ao outro. O outro non
se esquece de comer.
se esquece de comer.
07:56
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
08:00
This was the cooperation, reciprocity part.
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Esta foi a cooperación, a reciprocidade.
08:02
Now something on empathy.
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Agora algo sobre a empatía.
08:04
Empathy is my main topic at the moment of research.
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A empatía é a miña especialidade-
08:06
And empathy has sort of two qualities.
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A empatía ten dúas cualidades.
08:08
One is the understanding part of it. This is just a regular definition:
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Unha é entender ao outro. A definición
habitual é a abilidade
habitual é a abilidade
08:11
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
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de entender e compartir os sentimentos.
08:13
And the emotional part.
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E a parte emocional.
08:15
And so empathy has basically two channels.
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A empatía basicamente
ten dúas canles.
ten dúas canles.
08:17
One is the body channel.
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Unha é o corpo como canle.
08:19
If you talk with a sad person,
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Se falas cunha persoa triste,
08:21
you're going to adopt a sad expression and a sad posture,
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adoptarás unha expresión e postura triste,
08:24
and before you know it you feel sad.
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e antes de que o saibas.
08:26
And that's sort of the body channel of emotional empathy,
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Esa é a canle corporal
da empatía emocional
da empatía emocional
08:29
which many animals have.
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que teñen os animais.
08:31
Your average dog has that also.
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O voso can tamén a ten.
08:33
That's actually why people keep mammals in the home
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Razón pola que temos mamíferos
nas casas
nas casas
08:35
and not turtles or snakes or something like that
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e non tartarugas ou cobras
ou cousas
ou cousas
08:37
who don't have that kind of empathy.
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que non teñen esa clase de empatía.
08:39
And then there's a cognitive channel,
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E temos tamén a canle cognitiva.
08:41
which is more that you can take the perspective of somebody else.
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que é máis que captar a perspectiva doutro
08:43
And that's more limited.
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e iso é máis limitado.
08:45
There's few animals -- I think elephants and apes can do that kind of thing --
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Hai poucos animais
08:47
but there are very few animals who can do that.
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quen de facelo. Os elefantes e
primates poden.
primates poden.
08:50
So synchronization,
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A sincronización,
08:52
which is part of that whole empathy mechanism
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que é unha parte do mecanismo
da empatía
da empatía
08:54
is a very old one in the animal kingdom.
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é moi antiga no reino animal.
08:56
And in humans, of course, we can study that
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e en humanos podemos estudala
08:58
with yawn contagion.
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co bocexo contaxioso.
09:00
Humans yawn when others yawn.
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Os humanos bocexamos cando outros bocexan.
09:02
And it's related to empathy.
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e está relacionado coa empatía.
09:04
It activates the same areas in the brain.
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Activa a mesma área do cerebro.
09:06
Also, we know that people who have a lot of yawn contagion
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Sabemos que quen ten
o bocexo contaxioso
o bocexo contaxioso
09:08
are highly empathic.
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é moi empáticos.
09:10
People who have problems with empathy, such as autistic children,
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Por exemplo, os nenos autistas
09:12
they don't have yawn contagion.
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non teñen bocexo contaxioso.
09:14
So it is connected.
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Así que hai unha conexión.
09:16
And we study that in our chimpanzees by presenting them with an animated head.
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E o estudamos nos chimpances poñéndoos
ante unha cabeza animada.
ante unha cabeza animada.
09:19
So that's what you see on the upper-left,
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O que se ve na esquina
superior esquerda
superior esquerda
09:21
an animated head that yawns.
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é unha cabeza animada que bocexa
09:23
And there's a chimpanzee watching,
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e hai un chimpacé ollando,
09:25
an actual real chimpanzee watching a computer screen
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un chimpancé de carne e óso que
olla unha pantalla
olla unha pantalla
09:28
on which we play these animations.
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sobre o que se ven estas animacións.
09:35
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
09:37
So yawn contagion
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Bocexar é contaxioso
09:39
that you're probably all familiar with --
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algo co que estamos familiarizados.
09:41
and maybe you're going to start yawning soon now --
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E se cadra vós comezan
a bocexar axiña.
a bocexar axiña.
09:44
is something that we share with other animals.
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É algo que compartimos con outros animais
09:47
And that's related to that whole body channel of synchronization
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e está relacionado co canal
corporal da sincronización
corporal da sincronización
09:50
that underlies empathy
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que está á súa vez relacionado coa empatía
09:52
and that is universal in the mammals basically.
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e que é universal entre os mamíferos.
09:55
Now we also study more complex expressions. This is consolation.
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Ademais estudamos expresións
máis complexas. O consolo.
máis complexas. O consolo.
09:58
This is a male chimpanzee who has lost a fight and he's screaming,
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Este é un chimpacé macho que rifou
e está berrando,
e está berrando,
10:01
and a juvenile comes over and puts an arm around him
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e un novo achégase e rodéao co seu brazo
10:03
and calms him down.
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e acóugao.
10:05
That's consolation. It's very similar to human consolation.
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Iso é o consolo. É moi semellante
ao consolo humano.
ao consolo humano.
10:08
And consolation behavior,
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E o comportamento do consolo
10:11
it's empathy driven.
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está impulsado pola empatía.
10:13
Actually the way to study empathy in human children
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Hoxe se estuda a empatía nos nenos
10:16
is to instruct a family member to act distressed,
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facendo que un membro da familia
10:18
and then they see what young children do.
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actúe angustiado e así ven que fan.
10:20
And so it is related to empathy,
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E iso está relacionado coa empatía,
10:22
and that's the kind of expressions we look at.
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e ese é o tipo de expresión que vemos.
10:25
We also recently published an experiment you may have heard about.
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Hai pouco publicamos un experimento
10:28
It's on altruism and chimpanzees
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sobre o altruísmo e os chimpacés
10:31
where the question is, do chimpanzees care
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e pregúntase: preocúpanse
os chimpancés
os chimpancés
10:33
about the welfare of somebody else?
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sobre o benestar doutro?
10:35
And for decades it had been assumed
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Durante décadas asumimos
10:37
that only humans can do that,
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que só o podemos facer os humanos,
10:39
that only humans worry about the welfare of somebody else.
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que só os humanos nos preocupamos
do benestar dos demais.
do benestar dos demais.
10:42
Now we did a very simple experiment.
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Fixemos un experimento moi sinxelo.
10:44
We do that on chimpanzees that live in Lawrenceville,
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Fixémolo con chimpancés que viven
en Lawrenceville,
en Lawrenceville,
10:47
in the field station of Yerkes.
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nunha estación de campo en Yerkes.
10:49
And so that's how they live.
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E así é como viven.
10:51
And we call them into a room and do experiments with them.
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Chamámolos para que entren nun cuarto
e experimentamos con eles
e experimentamos con eles
10:54
In this case, we put two chimpanzees side-by-side.
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Neste caso, poñemos un
a carón doutro.
a carón doutro.
10:56
and one has a bucket full of tokens, and the tokens have different meanings.
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Un ten unha bolsa con fichas, as pezas
teñen diferentes sensos.
teñen diferentes sensos.
10:59
One kind of token feeds only the partner who chooses,
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Unha das fichas alimenta só
ao parceiro que escolle,
ao parceiro que escolle,
11:02
the other one feeds both of them.
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a outro alimenta a ámbolos dous.
11:04
So this is a study we did with Vicky Horner.
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Este é un estudo que fixemos
con Vicky Horner.
con Vicky Horner.
11:08
And here you have the two color tokens.
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Aquí tedes as fichas de dúas cores.
11:10
So they have a whole bucket full of them.
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Así que teñen unha bolsa enteira delas.
11:12
And they have to pick one of the two colors.
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E teñen que escoller unha
entre as dúas cores.
entre as dúas cores.
11:15
You will see how that goes.
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Agora veredes como funciona.
11:18
So if this chimp makes the selfish choice,
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Se este chimpancé fai a escolla egoísta,
11:21
which is the red token in this case,
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que é neste caso a ficha vermella,
11:24
he needs to give it to us.
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necesita devolvérnola.
11:26
So we pick it up, we put it on a table where there's two food rewards,
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Nós poñémola sobre a mesa
onde hai dúas recompensas,
onde hai dúas recompensas,
11:29
but in this case only the one on the right gets food.
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neste caso só o da dereita obtén comida.
11:32
The one on the left walks away because she knows already.
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A que está á dereita marcha porque xa sabe
11:34
that this is not a good test for her.
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que este non é un bo resultado para ela.
11:37
Then the next one is the pro-social token.
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Entón o próximo é a ficha pro-social.
11:39
So the one who makes the choices -- that's the interesting part here --
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Aquel que escolle, esa é
a parte interesante,
a parte interesante,
11:42
for the one who makes the choices,
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para quen escolle,
11:44
it doesn't really matter.
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non ten neste caso importancia.
11:46
So she gives us now a pro-social token and both chimps get fed.
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Así que entrega unha ficha pro-social
e ambos reciben comida.
e ambos reciben comida.
11:49
So the one who makes the choices always gets a reward.
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O que escolle sempre obtén
unha recompensa.
unha recompensa.
11:52
So it doesn't matter whatsoever.
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polo que quen escolla non ten relevancia.
11:54
And she should actually be choosing blindly.
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E ela debería entón escoller a cegas.
11:56
But what we find
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Mais o que nos atopamos
11:58
is that they prefer the pro-social token.
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é que prefiren a ficha pro-social.
12:00
So this is the 50 percent line that's the random expectation.
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Esta é a liña cincuenta por cento que
é o esperable no azar.
é o esperable no azar.
12:03
And especially if the partner draws attention to itself, they choose more.
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Se o compañeiro atrae a atención
sobre el escollen máis,
sobre el escollen máis,
12:06
And if the partner puts pressure on them --
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e tamén se o compañeiro lles mete presión.
12:09
so if the partner starts spitting water and intimidating them --
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Se o compañeiro comeza
a cuspir e intimidalos
a cuspir e intimidalos
12:12
then the choices go down.
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entón diminúen as escollas.
12:15
It's as if they're saying,
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É como se dixesen,
12:17
"If you're not behaving, I'm not going to be pro-social today."
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"se non te comportas non
serei pro-social"
serei pro-social"
12:19
And this is what happens without a partner,
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E isto é o que pasa sen compañeiro,
12:21
when there's no partner sitting there.
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cando non hai un parceiro sentado aí.
12:23
And so we found that the chimpanzees do care
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Agora sabemos que os chimpacés
12:25
about the well-being of somebody else --
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se preocupan de que os demais estean ben
12:27
especially, these are other members of their own group.
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especialmente, se son membros
do seu mesmo grupo.
do seu mesmo grupo.
12:30
So the final experiment that I want to mention to you
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O experimento final que quero expoñer
12:33
is our fairness study.
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é o noso estudo sobre a equidade.
12:35
And so this became a very famous study.
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Esto chegou a ser un estudo moi famoso.
12:38
And there's now many more,
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Agora hai moitos máis,
12:40
because after we did this about 10 years ago,
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despois de facermos
isto hai dez anos,
isto hai dez anos,
12:42
it became very well known.
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chegou a ser moi coñecido.
12:44
And we did that originally with capuchin monkeys.
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O primeiro foi con monos capuchinos.
12:46
And I'm going to show you the first experiment that we did.
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Vou amosarlles o noso experimento.
12:49
It has now been done with dogs and with birds
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Foi feito con cans e paxaros
12:52
and with chimpanzees.
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e con chimpacés.
12:54
But with Sarah Brosnan we started out with capuchin monkeys.
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Mais con Sarah Brosnan empezamos
con monos capuchinos.
con monos capuchinos.
12:58
So what we did
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Así que o que fixemos foi
13:00
is we put two capuchin monkeys side-by-side.
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poñer dous capuchinos
cóbado con cóbado.
cóbado con cóbado.
13:02
Again, these animals, they live in a group, they know each other.
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Viven en grupo
e coñécense entre eles.
e coñécense entre eles.
13:04
We take them out of the group, put them in a test chamber.
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Tirámolos do grupo e puxémolos
nunha cámara de experimentación.
nunha cámara de experimentación.
13:07
And there's a very simple task
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E hai unha tarefa moi simple
13:09
that they need to do.
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que necesitan facer.
13:11
And if you give both of them cucumber for the task,
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Se lle dan aos dous cogombro
para faceren a tarefa,
para faceren a tarefa,
13:14
the two monkeys side-by-side,
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os dous monos un a carón doutro,
13:16
they're perfectly willing to do this 25 times in a row.
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son capaces de facelo 25 veces seguidas.
13:18
So cucumber, even though it's only really water in my opinion,
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Así que o cogombro, que para min
non é máis que auga,
non é máis que auga,
13:22
but cucumber is perfectly fine for them.
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para eles é algo estupendo.
13:25
Now if you give the partner grapes --
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Agora se lle dan uvas ao compañeiro,
13:28
the food preferences of my capuchin monkeys
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a comida preferida dos capuchinos,
13:30
correspond exactly with the prices in the supermarket --
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corresponde exactamente cos prezos
no supermercado
no supermercado
13:33
and so if you give them grapes -- it's a far better food --
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polo tanto se lle dan uvas, unha comida
moito mellor
moito mellor
13:36
then you create inequity between them.
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entón crean desigualdade entre eles.
13:39
So that's the experiment we did.
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Ben este é o experimento que fixemos.
13:41
Recently we videotaped it with new monkeys who'd never done the task,
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Hai pouco gravámolo con novos monos
que non fixeran esta tarefa
que non fixeran esta tarefa
13:44
thinking that maybe they would have a stronger reaction,
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pensando que reaccionarían
máis forte
máis forte
13:46
and that turned out to be right.
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e tiñamos razón.
13:48
The one on the left is the monkey who gets cucumber.
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O da esquerda é o que recibe o cogombro.
13:50
The one on the right is the one who gets grapes.
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O da dereita recibe uvas.
13:53
The one who gets cucumber,
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O que recibe cogombro,
13:55
note that the first piece of cucumber is perfectly fine.
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vexan como a primeira peza está ben.
13:57
The first piece she eats.
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O primeiro anaco o come.
14:00
Then she sees the other one getting grape, and you will see what happens.
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Agora o outro recibe unha uva,
verán que lle sucede.
verán que lle sucede.
14:03
So she gives a rock to us. That's the task.
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Entréganos unha pedra. Esa é a tarefa.
14:06
And we give her a piece of cucumber and she eats it.
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E nós dámoslles un anaco
de cogombro e o comen.
de cogombro e o comen.
14:09
The other one needs to give a rock to us.
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O outro debe darnos unha pedra
14:12
And that's what she does.
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e así o fai.
14:15
And she gets a grape and she eats it.
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E ela consegue unha uva e a come.
14:18
The other one sees that.
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O outro observa.
14:20
She gives a rock to us now,
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Dános unha pedra
14:22
gets, again, cucumber.
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e recibe, outra vez, cogombro.
14:27
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
14:42
She tests a rock now against the wall.
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Proba a pedra contra a parede.
14:45
She needs to give it to us.
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Ten que entregárnola.
14:47
And she gets cucumber again.
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E recibe cogombro outra vez.
14:52
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
14:58
So this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here.
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O que aquí vemos é a protesta
contra Wall Street.
contra Wall Street.
15:02
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
15:05
(Applause)
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(Aplauso)
15:08
Let me tell you --
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Permítanme,
15:10
I still have two minutes left, let me tell you a funny story about this.
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permítanme contar unha historia graciosa.
15:12
This study became very famous
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Este estudo chegou a ser moi famoso
15:14
and we got a lot of comments,
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e recibimos moitos comentarios,
15:16
especially anthropologists, economists,
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en concreto de antropólogos,
economistas,
economistas,
15:18
philosophers.
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filósofos.
15:20
They didn't like this at all.
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Non lles gustou en absoluto.
15:22
Because they had decided in their minds, I believe,
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Porque dicidiran nas súas mentes, creo,
15:25
that fairness is a very complex issue
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que a equidade é un asunto moi complexo
15:27
and that animals cannot have it.
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e que os animais non a teñen.
15:29
And so one philosopher even wrote us
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Incluso un filósofo escribiunos
15:31
that it was impossible that monkeys had a sense of fairness
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que é imposible que un mono
teña a noción da equidade
teña a noción da equidade
15:34
because fairness was invented during the French Revolution.
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porque a equidade foi inventada
durante a Revolución Francesa.
durante a Revolución Francesa.
15:37
(Laughter)
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(Risas)
15:39
Now another one wrote a whole chapter
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Outro escribiu un capítulo enteiro
15:42
saying that he would believe it had something to do with fairness
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dicindo que crería que todo isto
tiña algo que ver coa equidade
tiña algo que ver coa equidade
15:46
if the one who got grapes would refuse the grapes.
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se o que obtiña as uvas renunciase a elas.
15:48
Now the funny thing is that Sarah Brosnan,
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Agora o chiste esta en que Sarah Brosnan,
15:50
who's been doing this with chimpanzees,
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que leva fai isto mesmo con chimpancés,
15:52
had a couple of combinations of chimpanzees
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tiña unha parella de combinacións deles
15:54
where, indeed, the one who would get the grape would refuse the grape
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onde, sen dúbida, aquel que recibía
a uva refugábaa
a uva refugábaa
15:57
until the other guy also got a grape.
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até que o seu compañeiro obtivese unha.
15:59
So we're getting very close to the human sense of fairness.
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Aquí nos achegamos moito á
noción humana de equidade.
noción humana de equidade.
16:02
And I think philosophers need to rethink their philosophy for awhile.
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Acho que os filósofos necesitan repensar
a súa filosofía durante un momento.
a súa filosofía durante un momento.
16:06
So let me summarize.
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Resumindo,
16:08
I believe there's an evolved morality.
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coido que hai unha moralidade evolutiva.
16:10
I think morality is much more than what I've been talking about,
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e que é moito máis do que levamos falado,
16:12
but it would be impossible without these ingredients
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mais sería imposible sen
estes ingredientes
estes ingredientes
16:15
that we find in other primates,
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que atopamos noutros primates,
16:17
which are empathy and consolation,
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que son a empatía e o consolo,
16:19
pro-social tendencies and reciprocity and a sense of fairness.
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as tendencias pro-sociais, a reciprocidade
16:22
And so we work on these particular issues
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e a noción de xustiza. Traballamos
para ver se podemos
para ver se podemos
16:25
to see if we can create a morality from the bottom up, so to speak,
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crear unha moralidade de abaixo a arriba
16:28
without necessarily God and religion involved,
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sen implicar a Deus e a relixión,
16:30
and to see how we can get to an evolved morality.
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e ver como podemos chegar até
unha moralidade evolutiva
unha moralidade evolutiva
16:33
And I thank you for your attention.
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Grazas pola súa atención.
16:36
(Applause)
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(Aplausos)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Frans de Waal - PrimatologistFrans de Waal studies primate social behavior -- how they fight and reconcile, share and cooperate.
Why you should listen
Dutch/American biologist and ethologist Frans de Waal draws parallels between primate and human behavior, from peacemaking and morality to culture. Looking at human society through the lens of animal behavior, de Waal's first book, Chimpanzee Politics (1982), compares the schmoozing and scheming of chimpanzees involved in power struggles with that of human politicians. Named one of the 100 Most Influential People Today by Time Magazine, de Waal has written hundreds of peer-reviewed scientific articles, and his popular books have been translated in over 20 languages. He is a professor in Emory University's psychology department and Director of the Living Links Center at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center, in Atlanta. His next book is on animal and human emotions, entitled Mama's Last Hug (Norton, 2019).
Frans de Waal | Speaker | TED.com