TEDIndia 2009
Vilayanur Ramachandran: The neurons that shaped civilization
VS Ramachandran: Taraqqiyotni shakllantirgan neyronlar
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Neyroolim Vilayanar Ramchandran ko'zgu neyronlarining ajoyib vazifasini ta'kidlaydi. Faqat yaqindagina kashf etilgan bu neyronlar bizga murakkab jamoatchilik hulq atrvorini o'rganishga yordam beradi. Bu neyronlarning ba'zi birlari biz bilgan inson taraqqiyotining asosinini shakllantirgan.
Vilayanur Ramachandran - Brain expert
Neurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain. Full bio
Neurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
I'd like to talk to you today about the human brain,
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Bugun men sizga inson miyasi haqida gapirishni hohlayman.
00:18
which is what we do research on at the University of California.
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Bu bizning Califoniya Universitetitda qiladigan ilmiy ishimizdir.
00:20
Just think about this problem for a second.
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Bir soniyaga mana bu muammo haqida o'ylab ko'ringchi.
00:22
Here is a lump of flesh, about three pounds,
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Bu bir bo'lak et, chamasi 3 pound ( 1.34 kg ),
00:25
which you can hold in the palm of your hand.
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uni qo'lingiz olaqonida ushlab tura olasiz.
00:27
But it can contemplate the vastness of interstellar space.
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Lekin u yulduzlar orasidagi masofani anglay oladi.
00:31
It can contemplate the meaning of infinity,
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U cheksizlikning mano'sini anglay oladi,
00:33
ask questions about the meaning of its own existence,
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va o'z mavjudligi haqida savol so'ray oladi,
00:36
about the nature of God.
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va Xudoning tabiati haqida savol ko'tara oladi.
00:38
And this is truly the most amazing thing in the world.
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Va bu haqiqatdan dan ham dunyodagi eng ajoyib narsadir.
00:40
It's the greatest mystery confronting human beings:
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Bu insoniyatga yuzma yuz turgan eng katta jumboqdir:
00:43
How does this all come about?
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Buning hammasi qanday sodir bo'ladi?
00:45
Well, the brain, as you know, is made up of neurons.
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Xo'sh, siz bilasizki miya neyronlar- asab hujayralaridan tashkil topgan.
00:47
We're looking at neurons here.
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Biz bu yerda neyronlarga qarayapmiz.
00:49
There are 100 billion neurons in the adult human brain.
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Katta odam miyasida 100 milliardga yaqin neyronlar bor.
00:52
And each neuron makes something like 1,000 to 10,000 contacts
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Va har bir asab hujayrasi boshqa asab hujayralari bilan bir mingdan o'n mingacha o'zaro muloqat qiladi
00:55
with other neurons in the brain.
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miyadagi boshqa neyronlar bilan.
00:57
And based on this, people have calculated
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Shu asosida, odamlar hisoblan chiqishganki,
00:59
that the number of permutations and combinations of brain activity
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miya faoliyatidagi o'zgarishlar va birikmalar
01:02
exceeds the number of elementary particles in the universe.
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butun bor'liq olamdagi eng kichik zarrachalar sonidan ham oshadi.
01:05
So, how do you go about studying the brain?
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Xo'sh, miyani unda qanday o'rganish kerak?
01:07
One approach is to look at patients who had lesions
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Buning bir usuli, miyasi lat eygan bemorlarni o'rganish
01:09
in different part of the brain, and study changes in their behavior.
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miyaning har hil qismlarida, va hulq atvorning shunga binoan o'zgarishini o'rganishdir.
01:12
This is what I spoke about in the last TED.
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Men bu haqida o'tgan safar TED da gapirgandim.
01:14
Today I'll talk about a different approach,
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Bugun, men boshqacha usul haqida gapiraman
01:16
which is to put electrodes in different parts of the brain,
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bu miyaning turli qismlariga elktrodlar qo'yishdir,
01:18
and actually record the activity of individual nerve cells in the brain.
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va aslida miyadagi har bir asab hujayrasining jarayonini alohida yozib boradi.
01:22
Sort of eavesdrop on the activity of nerve cells in the brain.
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Bu miyadagi asab hujayralari jarayonining "gapiga qulo solib mo'ralashga" o'xshaydi.
01:26
Now, one recent discovery that has been made
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Yaqinda bir kashfiyor qilingan
01:29
by researchers in Italy, in Parma,
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Italiyalik ilmiy ishchilar, Parmada,
01:31
by Giacomo Rizzolatti and his colleagues,
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Giacomo Rizzaolatti va uning hamkasblari
01:34
is a group of neurons called mirror neurons,
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ko'zgu neyronlari degan bir guruh neyronlarni topishgan
01:36
which are on the front of the brain in the frontal lobes.
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Bu oldingi miyaning peshona qismida joylashgan.
01:39
Now, it turns out there are neurons
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Endi, qarasak bu neyronlar
01:41
which are called ordinary motor command neurons in the front of the brain,
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oldingi miyadagi oddiy harakat va buyruq neyronlari ekan
01:44
which have been known for over 50 years.
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bu bizga 50 yildan buyon ma'lum bulib kelgan.
01:46
These neurons will fire when a person performs a specific action.
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Bu neyronlar odam ma'lum bir harakat qilganda ishga tushadi.
01:49
For example, if I do that, and reach and grab an apple,
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Masalan, men bunday qilsam, va cho'zilib olma olsam,
01:52
a motor command neuron in the front of my brain will fire.
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mening peshona qismimdagi harakat neyroni ishga tushadi.
01:56
If I reach out and pull an object, another neuron will fire,
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Agar men biror narsaga qo'l cho'zsam boshqa bir neyron ishga tushadi,
01:59
commanding me to pull that object.
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menga ana shu narsani tortishga buyruq beradi.
02:01
These are called motor command neurons that have been known for a long time.
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Bu uzoq vaqtdan buyon bizga ma'lum bulgan harakat neyronlaridir.
02:03
But what Rizzolatti found was
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Lekin Rizzolatti topgan narsa
02:05
a subset of these neurons,
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ushbu neyronlarning kichik bir guruhi edi,
02:07
maybe about 20 percent of them, will also fire
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balki bu neyronlarning tahminan 20 % i ishga tushadigan payt
02:09
when I'm looking at somebody else performing the same action.
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men boshqa bir odamning biror narsa qilayotganini ko'radigan paytim.
02:12
So, here is a neuron that fires when I reach and grab something,
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Xullas, bu yerda men biror narsaga cho'zilib narsani olganimda ishga tushadigan neyron
02:15
but it also fires when I watch Joe reaching and grabbing something.
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lekin, u yana men Joe ni cho'zilib narsa olganini ko'rsam ham ishga tushadi.
02:18
And this is truly astonishing.
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Ba bu chindan ham hayrtalanarlidir.
02:20
Because it's as though this neuron is adopting
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Chunki, bu huddi neyronning
02:22
the other person's point of view.
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boshqa bir odamning fikrini o'zlashtrish deganidir.
02:24
It's almost as though it's performing a virtual reality simulation
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Bu huddi hayol tasavvuriy haqiqatni bajarishi kabidir
02:28
of the other person's action.
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boshqa odamning harakatini simulyatsiyalaydi.
02:30
Now, what is the significance of these mirror neurons?
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Xo'sh, bu ko'zgu neyronlarning ahamiyati nimada?
02:33
For one thing they must be involved in things like imitation and emulation.
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Bir narsa shuki, ular taqlid qilish va o'xhsatishda ishtirok etsa kerak.
02:36
Because to imitate a complex act
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Chunki murakkab harakatga taqlid qilish uchun
02:39
requires my brain to adopt the other person's point of view.
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miya o'zga odamning dunyo qarashini o'zlashtirish kerak bo'ladi.
02:42
So, this is important for imitation and emulation.
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Xullas, bu taqlid qilish va o'xshatish uchun muhim.
02:44
Well, why is that important?
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Nima uchun bu narsa muhim?
02:46
Well, let's take a look at the next slide.
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Keling keyingi slaydga qaraylik
02:49
So, how do you do imitation? Why is imitation important?
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Siz qanday qilib taqlid qilasiz? Nima uchun taqlid muhim?
02:52
Mirror neurons and imitation, emulation.
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Ko'zgu neyronlar, va taqlid, o'xshatish.
02:54
Now, let's look at culture, the phenomenon of human culture.
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Keling madaniyatga bir qaraylik, inson madaniyatinign tabiatiga.
02:58
If you go back in time about [75,000] to 100,000 years ago,
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Agar 75 mingdan 100 ming yilacha orqaga qaytsangiz,
03:02
let's look at human evolution, it turns out
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inson evolyutsiyasida
03:04
that something very important happened around 75,000 years ago.
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juda muhim narsa 75 ming yil avval sodir bo'lgan ko'rinadi.
03:07
And that is, there is a sudden emergence and rapid spread
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Bu birdan paydo bo'lgan zaruriyat va tez tarqalgan
03:09
of a number of skills that are unique to human beings
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inson uchungina oid bo'lgan hunarlarnign paydo bo'lishidir.
03:12
like tool use,
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masalan asboblarni ishlatish,
03:14
the use of fire, the use of shelters, and, of course, language,
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olovdan foydalanish, pana joy izlash, va albatta tildan foydalanish
03:17
and the ability to read somebody else's mind
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va boshqa odamning fikrini o'qiy olish
03:19
and interpret that person's behavior.
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va insonnign hulqini tushuna olish.
03:21
All of that happened relatively quickly.
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Bularning hammasi juda tez sodir bo'lgan.
03:23
Even though the human brain had achieved its present size
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Inson miyasi hozirgi o'lchamiga erishgan bo'lsada
03:26
almost three or four hundred thousand years ago,
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yani 300 yoki 400 ming yil avval.
03:28
100,000 years ago all of this happened very, very quickly.
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100 ming yil avvala bu narsa juda ham tez sodir bo'lgan.
03:30
And I claim that what happened was
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Va men shunday deymanki, bunign sodir bo'lishiga sabab
03:33
the sudden emergence of a sophisticated mirror neuron system,
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oyna neyronlarning murakkablashishi uchun birdan tug'ilgan zaruriyatdir,
03:36
which allowed you to emulate and imitate other people's actions.
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qaysiki sizga boshqa odamlarning hatti harakatlariga taqlid qilish va o'xhsatishga omillik yaratdi.
03:38
So that when there was a sudden accidental discovery
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Shuning kutilmagan kashfiyot
03:42
by one member of the group, say the use of fire,
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yani guruhning bir a'zosi tomonidan, aytaylik olov ishlatish
03:45
or a particular type of tool, instead of dying out,
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yoki ma'lum bir asbobda foydalish kerak bo'lgan, qirilib ketmaslik uchun
03:47
this spread rapidly, horizontally across the population,
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bu tez tarqalgan, aholi bo'ylab gorizonatlga
03:50
or was transmitted vertically, down the generations.
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yoki vertikalchasiga, bir avloddan ikkinchi avlodga tarqalgan
03:53
So, this made evolution suddenly Lamarckian,
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Xullas, bu birdaniga Lamark evolyutsiyasiga aylandi
03:55
instead of Darwinian.
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Darvinning o'rniga.
03:57
Darwinian evolution is slow; it takes hundreds of thousands of years.
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Darvin elotyutsiyasi sekin, 100 va ming yillab davom etadi.
04:00
A polar bear, to evolve a coat,
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Qutb ayig'i jun paydo qilishi uchun
04:02
will take thousands of generations, maybe 100,000 years.
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minglab avlodlar, balki 100 minglab yillar kerak bo'lardi.
04:05
A human being, a child, can just watch its parent
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Inson, yosh bola shunchaki ota onasinining
04:08
kill another polar bear,
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qutb ayig'ini o'ldirishini ko'rib
04:11
and skin it and put the skin on its body, fur on the body,
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va terisini olib tanasiga kiyishi, junini tanaga kiyishni
04:14
and learn it in one step. What the polar bear
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birma bir o'rganadi. Buni qutb ayigi
04:16
took 100,000 years to learn,
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o'rganish uchun 100 ming yilcha ketganni
04:18
it can learn in five minutes, maybe 10 minutes.
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5 daqiqa yoki 10 daqiqa davomida o'rganoladi.
04:21
And then once it's learned this it spreads
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O'rgangach, u
04:23
in geometric proportion across a population.
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aholi bo'lyab geometrik proportsiyada tarqaladi.
04:26
This is the basis. The imitation of complex skills
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Bu asosi. Murrakkab hunarlarga taqlid qilish
04:29
is what we call culture and is the basis of civilization.
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bu inson taraqqiyoti va madaniyatining asosidir.
04:32
Now there is another kind of mirror neuron,
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Endi esa, ko'zgu neyronlarning boshqa hususiyati bor
04:34
which is involved in something quite different.
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bu juda boshqacha narsada ishtirok etishidir.
04:36
And that is, there are mirror neurons,
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Va shunday ko'zgu neyronlari borki
04:38
just as there are mirror neurons for action, there are mirror neurons for touch.
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ular faqat hatti harakat uchun, va boshqalari faqat sezgi uchun
04:41
In other words, if somebody touches me,
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Boshqa so'zlar bilan aytganda, agar kimdir meni ushlasa
04:43
my hand, neuron in the somatosensory cortex
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mening qo'limni, tana sezish bosh miya qobig'ida
04:45
in the sensory region of the brain fires.
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sezgi qismida neyron ishga tushadi.
04:47
But the same neuron, in some cases, will fire
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Lekin hudid shu neyron, ba'zi hollarda
04:50
when I simply watch another person being touched.
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men boshqa odamning ushlanganini ko'rsam ham ishga tushaveradi.
04:52
So, it's empathizing the other person being touched.
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Xullas, u boshqa odamning yana bir boshqa odma tomonidan qo'l tekkizilganiga urg'u beradi.
04:55
So, most of them will fire when I'm touched
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Shuning uchun ularning ko'pchilgi meni kimdir ushlasa ishga tushadi
04:57
in different locations. Different neurons for different locations.
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masalan boshqa joylarimda. Har bir joy uchun har hil neyron bor
05:00
But a subset of them will fire even when I watch somebody else
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Lekin ularning bi qismigina men boshqa odamning
05:02
being touched in the same location.
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ushlangani ko'rsam ham ishga tushaveradi.
05:04
So, here again you have neurons
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Sizda shunday neyronlar borki
05:06
which are enrolled in empathy.
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ular achinish, rahm qilishda ishtirok etadi.
05:08
Now, the question then arises: If I simply watch another person being touched,
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Shunday savol tug'iladi: agar men boshqa bir odamning ushlanganini ko'rsam
05:11
why do I not get confused and literally feel that touch sensation
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nima uchun men adashib huddi o'zim ushlangandek his qilmayman?
05:15
merely by watching somebody being touched?
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shunchaki boshqa odamni ushlashgani ko'rib?
05:17
I mean, I empathize with that person but I don't literally feel the touch.
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yani, men u odamga achinishim mumkin lekin men o'zin bu qo'l tegishini sezmayman.
05:21
Well, that's because you've got receptors in your skin,
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Chunki, siz terisingizda sezuvchi retseptorlar bor
05:23
touch and pain receptors, going back into your brain
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sezgi va og'riq retseptorlari, miyangizga boradi
05:25
and saying "Don't worry, you're not being touched.
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va xavotir olma, senga tegishmaypti deydi
05:28
So, empathize, by all means, with the other person,
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Xullas siz achinasiz boshqa odam uchun
05:31
but do not actually experience the touch,
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lekin aslida bu sezgini o'zingiz tajriba qilmaysiz
05:33
otherwise you'll get confused and muddled."
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bo'lmasa siz adashib ketgan bo'lardingiz.
05:35
Okay, so there is a feedback signal
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qaytar signal bor
05:37
that vetoes the signal of the mirror neuron
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oyna neyrondagi signalni to'xtatadigan
05:39
preventing you from consciously experiencing that touch.
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yani sizni chindna ham shu qo'l tegishini sezishingizni oldi oladigan.
05:42
But if you remove the arm, you simply anesthetize my arm,
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Lekin, agar qo'lingizni olib tashlasangiz, yoki qo'lgagina narkoz bersangiz
05:45
so you put an injection into my arm,
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masalan qo'limga ukol qilib
05:47
anesthetize the brachial plexus, so the arm is numb,
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Yelka nervlariniga narkoz bersangiz, va qo'lim sezmaydigan bo'lsa
05:49
and there is no sensations coming in,
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va sezgi bo'lmasa
05:51
if I now watch you being touched,
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va agar endi men siz birov ushlaganini ko'rsam
05:53
I literally feel it in my hand.
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men chindan ham shuni o'z qo'limda sezaman.
05:55
In other words, you have dissolved the barrier
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Boshqa so'z bilan aytganda, o'rtadagi qobiq yo'qoladi
05:57
between you and other human beings.
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siz va boshqa odamlar o'rtasidagi.
05:59
So, I call them Gandhi neurons, or empathy neurons.
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Men ularni Gandi neyronlari yoki rahmdil neyronlar deyman.
06:02
(Laughter)
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(Kulgi)
06:03
And this is not in some abstract metaphorical sense.
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Va bu mavhum tushuncha emas,
06:06
All that's separating you from him,
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yani sizni undan ajratib turgan narsa
06:08
from the other person, is your skin.
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yani boshqa odamdan ajratib turgan narsa teringizdir.
06:10
Remove the skin, you experience that person's touch in your mind.
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Teringizni olib tahslang, keyin siz boshqa insonga tegishsa buni his qila olasiz, yani o'zingizda.
06:14
You've dissolved the barrier between you and other human beings.
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Si o'zingiz va boshqa odamlar o'rtasidagi qobiq, chegarani olib tahslaysiz.
06:17
And this, of course, is the basis of much of Eastern philosophy,
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Va bu Sharqiy falsafaning asosidir
06:19
and that is there is no real independent self,
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yani siz aslida bir bo'lak mustaqil emassiz
06:22
aloof from other human beings, inspecting the world,
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boshqa odamlardan ajralmagansiz, dunyoni
06:24
inspecting other people.
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va boshqa odamlarni o'rganasiz
06:26
You are, in fact, connected not just via Facebook and Internet,
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Aslida siz feysbuk va internet orqali o'zaro munosabatdasiz.
06:29
you're actually quite literally connected by your neurons.
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lekin aslida siz o'zaro neyronlaringiz bilan bo'glangansiz.
06:32
And there is whole chains of neurons around this room, talking to each other.
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Va mana shu xonada qancha neyronlar hozir bir biriga bog'anib muloqat qilmoqda.
06:35
And there is no real distinctiveness
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Va sizning ongingiz
06:37
of your consciousness from somebody else's consciousness.
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bilan boshqalarning ongi o'ratisida katta farq yo'q.
06:39
And this is not mumbo-jumbo philosophy.
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Va bu qandaydir falsafa emas
06:41
It emerges from our understanding of basic neuroscience.
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Bu neyronlarning asosiy hususiyatini o'rganishda kelib chiqqan xulosa.
06:44
So, you have a patient with a phantom limb. If the arm has been removed
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Sizda qo'li yo'q bemor yo'q qo'li tassavvur qilib sezganday bo'ladi.
06:47
and you have a phantom, and you watch somebody else
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bu holda, siz boshqa odamga qo'l tekkizilganini ko'rsangiz
06:49
being touched, you feel it in your phantom.
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siz buni yo'q qo'lingizda sezasiz.
06:51
Now the astonishing thing is,
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Bu juda hayratlanarli
06:53
if you have pain in your phantom limb, you squeeze the other person's hand,
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agar siz tassavur qilib olgan lekin aslida yo'qotilgan qo'lingizda og'riq bo'lsa
06:56
massage the other person's hand,
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va siz boshqa insonning qo'lini massaj qilinganini ko'rsangiz
06:58
that relieves the pain in your phantom hand,
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bu sizning tasavvuringizdagi " arvoh" qo'lingizdagi og'riqni yengillashtiradi.
07:00
almost as though the neuron
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Bu huddi
07:02
were obtaining relief from merely
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neyronning rohatlanishi
07:04
watching somebody else being massaged.
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boshqa odamning massaj qilinganini ko'rgandan kelib chiqadi
07:06
So, here you have my last slide.
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Bu mening oxirgi slaydim
07:09
For the longest time people have regarded science
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Uzoq paytgacha, odamlar ilmiy fanlar
07:11
and humanities as being distinct.
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va gumanitar fanlarni alohida nazarga olib kelganlar
07:13
C.P. Snow spoke of the two cultures:
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C.P Snow 2 hil madaniyat haqida gapirib o'tdi
07:16
science on the one hand, humanities on the other;
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Ilmiy fanlar bir tomonda, va gumanitar fanlar bir tomonda
07:18
never the twain shall meet.
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va ikkisi hech uchrashmaydi degandi
07:20
So, I'm saying the mirror neuron system underlies the interface
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Men aytayapmanki, koz'gu neyronlari chegara hosil qiladi
07:22
allowing you to rethink about issues like consciousness,
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sizning ong haqida qayta o'ylab chiqishingiz uchun,
07:25
representation of self,
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va o'zingizni qanday aks ettirishingiz haqida
07:27
what separates you from other human beings,
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sizni boshqa insonlardan nima ajratishi haqida
07:29
what allows you to empathize with other human beings,
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nima uchun boshqalarga rahm qilishingiz haqida
07:31
and also even things like the emergence of culture and civilization,
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va yana madaniyat va tarraqiyot qanday bunyod etiladi
07:34
which is unique to human beings. Thank you.
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chunki bilar insoniyat uchun alohida narsalardir. Rahmat.
07:36
(Applause)
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(Qarsaklar)
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Vilayanur Ramachandran - Brain expertNeurologist V.S. Ramachandran looks deep into the brain’s most basic mechanisms. By working with those who have very specific mental disabilities caused by brain injury or stroke, he can map functions of the mind to physical structures of the brain.
Why you should listen
V.S. Ramachandran is a mesmerizing speaker, able to concretely and simply describe the most complicated inner workings of the brain. His investigations into phantom limb pain, synesthesia and other brain disorders allow him to explore (and begin to answer) the most basic philosophical questions about the nature of self and human consciousness.
Ramachandran is the director of the Center for Brain and Cognition at the University of California, San Diego, and an adjunct professor at the Salk Institute. He is the author of Phantoms in the Brain (the basis for a Nova special), A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness and The Man with the Phantom Twin: Adventures in the Neuroscience of the Human Brain.
Vilayanur Ramachandran | Speaker | TED.com