TEDGlobal 2011
Misha Glenny: Hire the hackers!
美莎·格伦尼：雇佣黑客！
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Readability: 5.1
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尽管投入到网络安全的资金有数十亿之多，但其中一个问题却在很大程度上被忽视了：到底是谁编写了恶意代码？犯罪研究家美莎·格伦尼向我们介绍了全球范围一些被定罪的恶意代码案例，并发现了令人震惊的结论。
Misha Glenny - Underworld investigator
Journalist Misha Glenny leaves no stone unturned (and no failed state unexamined) in his excavation of criminal globalization. Full bio
Journalist Misha Glenny leaves no stone unturned (and no failed state unexamined) in his excavation of criminal globalization. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Now this is a very un-TED-like thing to do,
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这是一件非常不像TED风格的事情
00:18
but let's kick off the afternoon
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但是让我们用一条来自
00:21
with a message
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神秘赞助商
00:23
from a mystery sponsor.
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的信息开始这个下午
00:26
Anonymous: Dear Fox News,
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匿名：亲爱的福克斯新闻
00:28
it has come to our unfortunate attention
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很不幸得引起了我们的注意
00:31
that both the name and nature of Anonymous
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所有匿名者的名称和性质
00:33
has been ravaged.
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已经被破坏
00:35
We are everyone. We are no one.
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我们无所不在
00:38
We are anonymous. We are legion.
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我们没有姓名，我们代表着大众
00:41
We do not forgive. We do not forget.
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我们不会原谅 我们不会遗忘
00:44
We are but the base of chaos.
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我们只是混乱的根源
00:49
Misha Glenny: Anonymous, ladies and gentlemen --
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美莎·格伦尼：匿名者，女士们先生们--
00:52
a sophisticated group
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一个老练的
00:54
of politically motivated hackers
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有政治动机的黑客团体
00:56
who have emerged in 2011.
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出现于2011年
00:59
And they're pretty scary.
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他们非常可怕
01:01
You never know when they're going to attack next,
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你不会知道他们下次什么时候发动攻击
01:04
who or what the consequences will be.
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谁是受害者或后果是什么
01:07
But interestingly,
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可有趣的是
01:09
they have a sense of humor.
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他们很有幽默感
01:12
These guys hacked into Fox News' Twitter account
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他们盗取福克斯新闻的推特帐号
01:16
to announce President Obama's assassination.
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并宣布奥巴马总统被暗杀
01:20
Now you can imagine the panic that would have generated
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你可以想象当时在福克斯新闻编辑室内
01:23
in the newsroom at Fox.
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有多么的恐慌
01:25
"What do we do now?
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“我们现在该怎么办？
01:27
Put on a black armband, or crack open the champagne?"
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是该臂缠黑纱，还是开香槟庆祝？”
01:30
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
01:32
And of course, who could escape the irony
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当然，谁又能逃避默多克新闻集团的一员
01:36
of a member of Rupert Murdoch's News Corp.
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竟成为了黑客的受害者
01:39
being a victim of hacking for a change.
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这么具有讽刺意味的转变
01:42
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
01:44
(Applause)
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（掌声）
01:48
Sometimes you turn on the news
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有时你打开新闻节目
01:51
and you say, "Is there anyone left to hack?"
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你会说“还有谁没被黑吗？”
01:53
Sony Playstation Network -- done,
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索尼游戏平台网络--被侵入
01:56
the government of Turkey -- tick,
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土耳其政府--被侵入
01:58
Britain's Serious Organized Crime Agency -- a breeze,
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英国严重有组织犯罪署--易如反掌
02:01
the CIA -- falling off a log.
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美国中央情报局--轻而易举被侵入
02:03
In fact, a friend of mine from the security industry
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事实上，我的一位安保行业的朋友
02:05
told me the other day
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不久前告诉我
02:07
that there are two types of companies in the world:
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世界上有两种公司：
02:10
those that know they've been hacked, and those that don't.
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已知被侵入的和还不知道已被侵入的
02:13
I mean three companies
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我知道有三家
02:16
providing cybersecurity services to the FBI
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为美国联邦调查局提供网络安全服务的公司
02:20
have been hacked.
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已经被侵入了
02:22
Is nothing sacred anymore, for heaven's sake?
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天啊，难道已经没有什么是不可侵入的了吗？
02:25
Anyway, this mysterious group Anonymous --
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总之，这个神秘的匿名组织--
02:27
and they would say this themselves --
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他们自己这么称呼自己--
02:29
they are providing a service
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他们提供一种服务
02:31
by demonstrating how useless companies are
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来证明企业在保护我们的数据上
02:35
at protecting our data.
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是多么的没用
02:38
But there is also a very serious aspect to Anonymous --
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但对于匿名者还是有一个非常严重方面--
02:41
they are ideologically driven.
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他们是基于意识形态的
02:44
They claim that they are battling
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他们声称他们正在和卑鄙的
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a dastardly conspiracy.
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阴谋集团斗争
02:49
They say that governments are trying
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他们说政府正试图
02:51
to take over the Internet and control it,
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接管网络并加以控制
02:54
and that they, Anonymous,
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同时他们，匿名者们
02:56
are the authentic voice of resistance --
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才是反抗的可信的声音--
02:59
be it against Middle Eastern dictatorships,
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他们反对中东独裁者
03:01
against global media corporations,
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反对全球媒体
03:04
or against intelligence agencies,
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或是反对情报机构
03:06
or whoever it is.
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或是其他等等
03:08
And their politics are not entirely unattractive.
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他们的政治理念并不是完全没有吸引力
03:12
Okay, they're a little inchoate.
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好，他们只是刚刚开始
03:15
There's a strong whiff
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他们大力鼓吹
03:17
of half-baked anarchism about them.
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还不成熟的无政府主义
03:20
But one thing is true:
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但有一个事实
03:22
we are at the beginning
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我们正处在控制网络
03:24
of a mighty struggle
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这场强势斗争的
03:26
for control of the Internet.
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初始阶段
03:29
The Web links everything,
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网络连接着一切
03:31
and very soon
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且不久的将来
03:33
it will mediate most human activity.
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大多数人类活动都离不开网络
03:35
Because the Internet has fashioned
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因为网络已经为旧时代的进退两难
03:37
a new and complicated environment
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塑造了一个全新的复杂环境
03:39
for an old-age dilemma
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使得对安全的需求
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that pits the demands of security
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添加了
03:45
with the desire for freedom.
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对于自由的渴望
03:48
Now this is a very complicated struggle.
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如今这是个非常复杂的斗争
03:52
And unfortunately, for mortals like you and me,
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遗憾的是，对于像你我一样的凡人
03:55
we probably can't understand it very well.
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也许不会对此了解很多
03:58
Nonetheless,
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尽管如此
04:00
in an unexpected attack of hubris
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在数年前一次意外的
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a couple of years ago,
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狂妄的攻击下
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I decided I would try and do that.
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我决定试着去做些事情
04:07
And I sort of get it.
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我获得了些成果
04:11
These were the various things that I was looking at
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这些是我之前试着去弄懂的
04:13
as I was trying to understand it.
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不同的事情
04:15
But in order to try and explain the whole thing,
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但为了解释清整件事情
04:18
I would need another 18 minutes or so to do it,
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我需要再一个18分钟
04:21
so you're just going to have to take it on trust from me on this occasion,
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所以在这种情况下你要对我信任
04:26
and let me assure you that all of these issues
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我向大家保证所有的这些事情
04:28
are involved in cybersecurity and control of the Internet
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都与网络安全和对网络的控制多多少少
04:31
one way or the other,
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有关系
04:33
but in a configuration
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但是
04:35
that even Stephen Hawking would probably have difficulty
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即使是史蒂夫·霍金都有困难
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trying to get his head around.
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去转动他的头部
04:41
So there you are.
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所有就在那
04:43
And as you see, in the middle,
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就像大家看到的，在中间
04:45
there is our old friend, the hacker.
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有一位我们的老朋友， 黑客
04:47
The hacker is absolutely central
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黑客在许多政治、
04:50
to many of the political, social
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社会以及经济事件中
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and economic issues affecting the Net.
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都处于绝对重要的位置
04:55
And so I thought to myself,
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所以我心想
04:58
"Well, these are the guys who I want to talk to."
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“好，他们就是我要聊聊的家伙”
05:01
And what do you know,
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你知道吗
05:04
nobody else does talk to the hackers.
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没有其他人真正跟黑客交流过
05:06
They're completely anonymous, as it were.
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他们完全是匿名的
05:09
So despite the fact
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尽管现实中
05:11
that we are beginning to pour billions,
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我们开始花费了数十亿
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hundreds of billions of dollars,
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数千亿美元
05:16
into cybersecurity --
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在网络安全上--
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for the most extraordinary technical solutions --
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花费在那些最出色的技术解决方案上--
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no one wants to talk
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却没有人希望和
05:25
to these guys, the hackers,
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那些从事各行各业
05:27
who are doing everything.
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的黑客们聊聊
05:30
Instead, we prefer these really dazzling technological solutions,
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反之，他们更青睐于这些着实让人眼花缭乱
05:35
which cost a huge amount of money.
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且成本巨大的解决方案上
05:38
And so nothing is going into the hackers.
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从没人试着走近黑客的生活
05:41
Well, I say nothing,
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我说的是没有人
05:43
but actually there is one teeny weeny little research unit
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但事实上，还是有一个非常小的研究机构
05:47
in Turin, Italy
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在意大利都灵
05:49
called the Hackers Profiling Project.
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叫做黑客分析项目
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And they are doing some fantastic research
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他们从事着非常棒的研究
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into the characteristics,
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关于黑客特征
05:57
into the abilities
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才能
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and the socialization of hackers.
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和社会化方面
06:01
But because they're a U.N. operation,
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但因为他们是联合国运作的
06:03
maybe that's why governments and corporations
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所以政府和企业
06:05
are not that interested in them.
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对他们兴趣不大
06:07
Because it's a U.N. operation,
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因为联合国的项目
06:09
of course, it lacks funding.
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当然，就缺乏资金
06:12
But I think they're doing very important work.
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但是我认为他们正做着非常重要的工作
06:15
Because where we have a surplus of technology
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因为在网络安全行业
06:19
in the cybersecurity industry,
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其实是科技过剩的
06:22
we have a definite lack of --
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我们实际缺乏的是--
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call me old-fashioned --
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你可以说我是保守派--
06:27
human intelligence.
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人类的智慧
06:29
Now, so far I've mentioned
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我到现在为止所提到的
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the hackers Anonymous
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匿名的黑客
06:33
who are a politically motivated hacking group.
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都是政治导向型的黑客组织
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Of course, the criminal justice system
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当然，刑事司法系统
06:38
treats them as common old garden criminals.
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把它们视为犯罪分子
06:40
But interestingly,
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但有趣的是
06:42
Anonymous does not make use of its hacked information
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匿名者从来不用他们所盗取的信息
06:44
for financial gain.
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进行营利
06:46
But what about the real cybercriminals?
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但是真正的网络罪犯又是怎样的呢？
06:50
Well real organized crime on the Internet
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真正的有组织网络犯罪要
06:53
goes back about 10 years
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追溯到10年前
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when a group of gifted Ukrainian hackers
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当乌克兰一个天才黑客组织
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developed a website,
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开发了一个网站
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which led to the industrialization
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形成了网络犯罪的
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of cybercrime.
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产业化
07:07
Welcome to the now forgotten realm of CarderPlanet.
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欢迎来到已经被遗忘的了CarderPlanet王国
07:13
This is how they were advertising themselves
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10年前在网络上他们就是这样
07:15
a decade ago on the Net.
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宣传自己的
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Now CarderPlanet was very interesting.
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现在CarderPlanet变得非常有趣
07:20
Cybercriminals would go there
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网络罪犯们登录网站
07:22
to buy and sell stolen credit card details,
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去买卖盗来的信用卡信息
07:25
to exchange information
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来换取新的
07:27
about new malware that was out there.
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恶意软件的信息
07:30
And remember, this is a time
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记住，这是第一次
07:32
when we're seeing for the first time
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我们看到
07:34
so-called off-the-shelf malware.
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所谓现成的恶意软件
07:36
This is ready for use, out-of-the-box stuff,
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这已经是成品了，即装即用
07:39
which you can deploy
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即使你不是一个
07:41
even if you're not a terribly sophisticated hacker.
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资深的黑客 你照样可以应用
07:45
And so CarderPlanet became a sort of supermarket
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于是CarderPlanet成为了一个有点像网络罪犯超市
07:48
for cybercriminals.
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的地方
07:50
And its creators
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它的创造者
07:52
were incredibly smart and entrepreneurial,
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非常聪明且有企业家头脑
07:54
because they were faced
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因为他们作为网络罪犯
07:56
with one enormous challenge as cybercriminals.
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面临着一个巨大的挑战
07:59
And that challenge is:
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这个挑战是：
08:01
How do you do business,
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如何去经营
08:03
how do you trust
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你怎么去信任
08:05
somebody on the Web who you want to do business with
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在网络上你想与之交易的人
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when you know that they're a criminal?
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当你明知他们就是罪犯的时候？
08:10
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:12
It's axiomatic that they're dodgy,
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不说也知道他们都很狡猾
08:14
and they're going to want to try and rip you off.
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而且试图诈骗你
08:17
So the family, as the inner core of CarderPlanet was known,
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CarderPlanet 的内部核心人员对此很清楚
08:20
came up with this brilliant idea
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于是想出了个很棒的点子
08:22
called the escrow system.
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叫做托管系统
08:24
They appointed an officer
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他们任命一位职员
08:27
who would mediate between the vendor and the purchaser.
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负责在买卖双方进行协调
08:30
The vendor, say, had stolen credit card details;
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卖方说，有一个盗来的信用卡信息
08:33
the purchaser wanted to get a hold of them.
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买方如果希望买
08:36
The purchaser would send the administrative officer
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需要把出价发给
08:39
some dollars digitally,
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管理员
08:41
and the vendor would sell the stolen credit card details.
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同时卖方把盗来的信用卡信息发给管理员
08:44
And the officer would then verify
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管理员然后进行核实
08:47
if the stolen credit card worked.
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看看信用卡信息是否有效
08:50
And if they did,
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如果真实有效
08:52
he then passed on the money to the vendor
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他就会把钱转给卖方
08:54
and the stolen credit card details to the purchaser.
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同时把信用卡信息转给买方
08:57
And it was this
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这是
08:59
which completely revolutionized cybercrime on the Web.
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网络犯罪彻底的变革
09:04
And after that, it just went wild.
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从那之后，网络犯罪变的肆无忌惮
09:06
We had a champagne decade
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对于那些我们称之为Carders的人
09:08
for people who we know as Carders.
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拥有那黄金十年
09:11
Now I spoke to one of these Carders
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现在我和他们之中一员交谈
09:13
who we'll call RedBrigade --
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我们叫他红军 --
09:15
although that wasn't even his proper nickname --
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虽然那绰号不完全适合他--
09:17
but I promised I wouldn't reveal who he was.
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但是我许诺了不会说出他的身份
09:19
And he explained to me how in 2003 and 2004
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他还向我解释了他是如何在2003和2004年
09:22
he would go on sprees in New York,
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在纽约狂欢的时候
09:25
taking out $10,000 from an ATM here,
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用复制的假信用卡
09:28
$30,000 from an ATM there,
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从一台ATM机上取出1万美元
09:31
using cloned credit cards.
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另一台上取出3万美元
09:34
He was making, on average a week,
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他平均每周盗取
09:37
$150,000 --
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15万美元--
09:40
tax free of course.
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当然是免税的
09:42
And he said
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他还说
09:45
that he had so much money
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他有很多钱
09:47
stashed in his upper-East side apartment at one point
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藏匿在上东侧的公寓内
09:49
that he just didn't know what to do with it
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他都不知道用这些钱干什么
09:51
and actually fell into a depression.
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事实上还很沮丧
09:53
But that's a slightly different story,
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现在形势不同了
09:55
which I won't go into now.
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我不会去做了
09:57
Now the interesting thing about RedBrigade
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现在关于红军有趣的是
10:00
is that he wasn't an advanced hacker.
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他并不是一个高级的黑客
10:02
He sort of understood the technology,
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他略懂技术
10:04
and he realized that security was very important
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同时意识到安全非常重要
10:07
if you were going to be a Carder,
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如果你想成为Carder的一员
10:10
but he didn't spend his days and nights
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但是他不会日以继夜干着
10:12
bent over a computer, eating pizza,
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在电脑前工作，吃着批萨
10:14
drinking coke and that sort of thing.
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喝着可乐之类的事情
10:16
He was out there on the town
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他在一个镇上
10:18
having a fab time enjoying the high life.
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享受着高质量生活
10:20
And this is because
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这是因为
10:22
hackers are only one element
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黑客只是网络犯罪业
10:25
in a cybercriminal enterprise.
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的一个环节
10:28
And often they're the most vulnerable element of all.
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而且他们通常是所有环节中最脆弱的
10:34
And I want to explain this to you
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这点我想通过向大家介绍6位
10:36
by introducing you to six characters
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我做调查时遇到的人
10:38
who I met
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来进行
10:40
while I was doing this research.
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解释
10:43
Dimitry Golubov, aka SCRIPT --
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迪米特里·戈卢博夫，亦称“脚本”--
10:46
born in Odessa, Ukraine in 1982.
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1982年生于乌克兰奥德萨市
10:49
Now he developed his social and moral compass
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上世纪90年代，他在黑海港口的生活
10:52
on the Black Sea port during the 1990s.
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塑造了他的人生观
10:55
This was a sink-or-swim environment
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那是一个生死完全靠自己的环境
10:58
where involvement in criminal or corrupt activities
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那种环境中，犯罪、腐败行为
11:02
was entirely necessary
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是生存的
11:04
if you wanted to survive.
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必要条件
11:06
As an accomplished computer user,
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最为一名熟练的电脑使用者
11:08
what Dimitry did
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迪米特里所做的是
11:10
was to transfer the gangster capitalism of his hometown
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把他家乡的强盗资本主义那一套
11:14
onto the Worldwide Web.
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移植到了互联网上
11:16
And he did a great job in it.
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他干的非常棒
11:18
You have to understand though
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你要知道
11:20
that from his ninth birthday,
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从他9岁生日开始
11:22
the only environment he knew
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他所处的环境就只有
11:24
was gangsterism.
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强盗
11:26
He knew no other way of making a living
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除此之外他根本不懂如何用其他方法
11:28
and making money.
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维持生计
11:30
Then we have Renukanth Subramaniam,
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下一位是 瑞努坎斯·撒布莱姆尼安
11:32
aka JiLsi --
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亦称JiLsi --
11:34
founder of DarkMarket,
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黑市创始人
11:36
born in Colombo, Sri Lanka.
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生于斯里兰卡的科伦坡
11:38
As an eight year-old,
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在他八岁时
11:40
he and his parents fled the Sri Lankan capital
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他随父母逃离了斯里兰卡首都
11:42
because Singhalese mobs were roaming the city,
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因为僧伽罗人在他们的城市里搜寻并杀害
11:45
looking for Tamils like Renu to murder.
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像他全家这样的泰米尔族人
11:48
At 11, he was interrogated by the Sri Lankan military,
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11岁的时候，他被斯里兰卡军方审讯
11:50
accused of being a terrorist,
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并控告其为恐怖分子
11:52
and his parents sent him on his own to Britain
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他的父母把他一个人送到了英国
11:56
as a refugee seeking political asylum.
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作为难民寻求政治庇护
11:59
At 13,
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13岁时
12:01
with only little English and being bullied at school,
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仅会一点点英文的他在学校被欺负
12:04
he escaped into a world of computers
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于是他逃进了电脑的世界
12:07
where he showed great technical ability,
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这是个能展示他伟大才能的地方
12:09
but he was soon being seduced
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但是他不久就被网上的人
12:12
by people on the Internet.
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怂恿
12:14
He was convicted of mortgage and credit card fraud,
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他因抵押贷狂和信用卡欺诈被定罪
12:17
and he will be released from Wormwood Scrubs jail in London
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他将于2012年从伦敦Wormwood Scrubs监狱
12:20
in 2012.
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被释放
12:22
Matrix001,
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马提克斯001
12:26
who was an administrator at DarkMarket.
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一位黑市管理员
12:29
Born in Southern Germany
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生于德国南部
12:31
to a stable and well-respected middle class family,
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一个稳定而且受人尊重的中产家庭中
12:33
his obsession with gaming as a teenager
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他青年时期沉迷于游戏 并因此
12:36
led him to hacking.
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开始了黑客行为
12:38
And he was soon controlling huge servers around the world
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不久就控制了世界上大量的服务器
12:42
where he stored his games
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并在这些服务器上储存
12:44
that he had cracked and pirated.
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盗版来的破解版游戏
12:46
His slide into criminality
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他逐步滑向了
12:48
was incremental.
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犯罪的深渊
12:50
And when he finally woke up to his situation
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当他终于意识到自己所处的境地
12:53
and understood the implications,
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清楚了自己的所作所为时
12:55
he was already in too deep.
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他早已深陷其中
12:58
Max Vision, aka ICEMAN --
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Max Vision，亦称 冰人--
13:00
mastermind of cardersMarket.
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cardersMarket的幕后操纵者
13:02
Born in Meridian, Idaho.
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生于密烈地安，爱达荷州
13:04
Max Vision was one of the best penetration testers
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他是最好的侵入测试人员之一
13:08
working out of Santa Clara, California
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在90年代后期加利福尼亚州圣克拉拉
13:11
in the late 90s for private companies
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供职于私营企业，并以自由形式
13:13
and voluntarily for the FBI.
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服务于美国联邦调查局
13:16
Now in the late 1990s,
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在90年代后期
13:18
he discovered a vulnerability
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他开始为美国政府的
13:20
on all U.S. government networks,
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所有网络服务
13:23
and he went in and patched it up --
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他参与并为其进行补丁工作--
13:25
because this included nuclear research facilities --
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因为这其中包括了原子研究设施--
13:29
sparing the American government
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节约了美国政府
13:31
a huge security embarrassment.
307
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大笔安全维护费用
13:33
But also, because he was an inveterate hacker,
308
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但同时，因为他毕竟是个黑客出身
13:36
he left a tiny digital wormhole
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他留了个微小数字漏洞
13:38
through which he alone could crawl.
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只有他自己了解
13:40
But this was spotted by an eagle-eye investigator,
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但是这些都被叫鹰眼的调查员发现
13:43
and he was convicted.
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他因此被定罪
13:45
At his open prison,
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在开放式监狱中
13:47
he came under the influence of financial fraudsters,
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他被金融犯所影响
13:49
and those financial fraudsters
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同时那些金融犯
13:51
persuaded him to work for them
316
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教唆他出狱后为其
13:53
on his release.
317
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工作
13:55
And this man with a planetary-sized brain
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这位拥有天才头脑的家伙
13:58
is now serving a 13-year sentence
319
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正在在加利福尼亚服13年的
14:00
in California.
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刑期
14:02
Adewale Taiwo, aka FeddyBB --
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阿德瓦勒·泰沃， 亦称FeddyBB--
14:05
master bank account cracker
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著名银行账户黑客
14:07
from Abuja in Nigeria.
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生于尼日利亚阿布贾
14:10
He set up his prosaically entitled newsgroup,
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他成立了自己的银行诈骗组织
14:13
bankfrauds@yahoo.co.uk
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bankfrauds@yahoo.co.uk
14:18
before arriving in Britain
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在2005年
14:20
in 2005
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进入
14:22
to take a Masters in chemical engineering
328
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英国曼彻斯特大学学习
14:24
at Manchester University.
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化学工程硕士之前
14:26
He impressed in the private sector,
330
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在私营企业中
14:29
developing chemical applications for the oil industry
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他不仅在石油化学方面表现出色
14:32
while simultaneously running
332
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同时运作着
14:34
a worldwide bank and credit card fraud operation that was worth millions
333
859000
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一家全球性的银行账户和信用卡欺诈网络，资产高达百万
14:37
until his arrest in 2008.
334
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直至2008年被捕
14:41
And then finally, Cagatay Evyapan,
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最后一位，卡格特·艾维亚潘
14:43
aka Cha0 --
336
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外号 Cha0--
14:45
one of the most remarkable hackers ever,
337
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曾经最牛的黑客之一
14:47
from Ankara in Turkey.
338
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生于土耳其安卡拉
14:49
He combined the tremendous skills of a geek
339
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他是有着天才头脑的科学怪人
14:52
with the suave social engineering skills
340
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同时又兼有高级罪犯所具有的
14:56
of the master criminal.
341
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优雅的社会工程技巧
14:59
One of the smartest people I've ever met.
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我所见过的最聪明的人之一
15:02
He also had the most effective
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他拥有
15:04
virtual private network security arrangement
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警方所遇到过的全球网络罪犯中
15:06
the police have ever encountered
345
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最有效的
15:08
amongst global cybercriminals.
346
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虚拟私人网络安全管理方案
15:10
Now the important thing
347
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最重要的是
15:12
about all of these people
348
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关于所有这些人
15:14
is they share certain characteristics
349
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他们都共有同一种特性
15:16
despite the fact that they come from very different environments.
350
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尽管他们来自完全不同的生活环境
15:20
They are all people who learned their hacking skills
351
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但都是在十几岁的时候
15:23
in their early to mid-teens.
352
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学习的黑客技术
15:26
They are all people
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并且都
15:28
who demonstrate advanced ability
354
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在数学和科学领域展现了
15:30
in maths and the sciences.
355
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高超的才能
15:33
Remember that, when they developed those hacking skills,
356
918000
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记住一点，当他们开始开发自己的黑客技术之时
15:35
their moral compass had not yet developed.
357
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都还没有成熟的价值观
15:39
And most of them, with the exception of SCRIPT and Cha0,
358
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他们中的大多数，除了SCRIPT 和 Cha0
15:42
they did not demonstrate
359
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都没有展示出
15:46
any real social skills in the outside world --
360
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真正的社会技能--
15:49
only on the Web.
361
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仅在网络中展现了
15:51
And the other thing is
362
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另一个问题是
15:53
the high incidence of hackers like these
363
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黑客高发于
15:55
who have characteristics which are consistent
364
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具有唐氏综合症
15:58
with Asperger's syndrome.
365
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的人群中
16:01
Now I discussed this
366
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我和西蒙·拜龙·库何教授
16:03
with Professor Simon Baron-Cohen
367
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讨论过这个问题
16:05
who's the professor of developmental psychopathology at Cambridge.
368
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他是剑桥大学发展心理学的教授
16:09
And he has done path-breaking work on autism
369
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在自闭症方面作了开创性的研究
16:13
and confirmed, also for the authorities here,
370
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并且确认
16:15
that Gary McKinnon --
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加里·麦金农--
16:17
who is wanted by the United States
372
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被美国因侵入五角大楼
16:19
for hacking into the Pentagon --
373
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通缉的罪犯--
16:21
suffers from Asperger's
374
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患有唐氏综合症
16:23
and a secondary condition
375
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和中度的
16:25
of depression.
376
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抑郁症
16:27
And Baron-Cohen explained
377
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拜龙·库何解释到
16:29
that certain disabilities
378
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某些缺陷
16:31
can manifest themselves in the hacking and computing world
379
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可以让他们在黑客和电脑世界中展现
16:34
as tremendous skills,
380
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惊人的技能
16:36
and that we should not be throwing in jail
381
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同时我们不应该把
16:38
people who have such disabilities and skills
382
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拥有这些缺陷和技能的人关进监狱
16:41
because they have lost their way socially
383
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因为他们已经失去了社交能力
16:44
or been duped.
384
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且容易被骗
16:46
Now I think we're missing a trick here,
385
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我觉得这个问题上我们得不偿失
16:49
because I don't think people like Max Vision should be in jail.
386
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因为我不认为像Max Vision这样的人应该被抓进监狱
16:52
And let me be blunt about this.
387
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我说的直接一点
16:54
In China, in Russia and in loads of other countries
388
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在中国，俄罗斯和许多国家
16:57
that are developing cyber-offensive capabilities,
389
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都在发展网络攻击能力
17:00
this is exactly what they are doing.
390
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这就是他们在做的
17:02
They are recruiting hackers
391
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他们雇用黑客
17:04
both before and after they become involved
392
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不论从事网络犯罪还是间谍活动的黑客
17:07
in criminal and industrial espionage activities --
393
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或是还未参与的--
17:10
are mobilizing them
394
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把他们组织起来
17:12
on behalf of the state.
395
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为国家工作
17:14
We need to engage
396
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我们要雇用他们
17:16
and find ways of offering guidance
397
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同时找到一种方法
17:18
to these young people,
398
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为这些年轻人提供指导
17:20
because they are a remarkable breed.
399
1025000
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因为他们都是了不起的人
17:22
And if we rely, as we do at the moment,
400
1027000
2000
如果我们像现在这样仅仅依靠
17:24
solely on the criminal justice system
401
1029000
3000
刑事司法系统
17:27
and the threat of punitive sentences,
402
1032000
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和惩罚性的刑罚
17:30
we will be nurturing a monster we cannot tame.
403
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将会培养出我们无法驯服的怪兽
17:33
Thank you very much for listening.
404
1038000
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谢谢大家的倾听
17:35
(Applause)
405
1040000
13000
（掌声）
17:48
Chris Anderson: So your idea worth spreading
406
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克里斯·安德森：你的想法很值得推广
17:50
is hire hackers.
407
1055000
2000
即雇用黑客
17:52
How would someone get over that kind of fear
408
1057000
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可是如何让人消除这样的顾虑呢
17:56
that the hacker they hire
409
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所雇用的黑客
17:58
might preserve that little teensy wormhole?
410
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也许会带来微小的隐患
18:00
MG: I think to an extent,
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MG:我认为在一定程度上
18:02
you have to understand
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你应该了解
18:04
that it's axiomatic among hackers that they do that.
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他们明白自己在做什么
18:07
They're just relentless and obsessive
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只是对于所作的事情已经
18:10
about what they do.
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无法自拔
18:12
But all of the people who I've spoken to
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但我所交流过触犯了法律底线
18:14
who have fallen foul of the law,
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的所有黑客
18:16
they have all said, "Please, please give us a chance
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他们都说“求求你，请给我们一次机会
18:19
to work in the legitimate industry.
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为合法的领域工作
18:22
We just never knew how to get there, what we were doing.
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因为我们以前根本不知道如何用于正道，才做了那些
18:25
We want to work with you."
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我们希望为你效力”
18:27
Chris Anderson: Okay, well that makes sense. Thanks a lot Misha.
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克里斯·安德森：好，这就说的通了，非常感谢美莎
18:30
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Misha Glenny - Underworld investigatorJournalist Misha Glenny leaves no stone unturned (and no failed state unexamined) in his excavation of criminal globalization.
Why you should listen
In minute detail, Misha Glenny's 2008 book McMafia illuminates the byzantine outlines of global organized crime. Whether it's pot smugglers in British Columbia, oil/weapons/people traffickers in Eastern Europe, Japanese yakuza or Nigerian scammers, to research this magisterial work Glenny penetrated the convoluted, globalized and franchised modern underworld -- often at considerable personal risk.
The book that resulted is an exhaustive look at an unseen industry that Glenny believes may account for 15% of the world's GDP.
Legal society ignores this world at its peril, but Glenny suggests that conventional law enforcement might not be able to combat a problem whose roots lie in global instability.
While covering the Central Europe beat for the Guardian and the BBC, Glenny wrote several acclaimed books on the fall of Yugoslavia and the rise of the Balkan nations. He's researching a new book on cybercrime, of which he says: "The key to cybercrime is what we call social engineering. Or to use the technical term for it, there's one born every minute."
Watch TED's exclusive video Q&A with Glenny: "Behind the Scenes of McMafia" >>
Misha Glenny | Speaker | TED.com