TEDxVienna
Carrie Poppy: A scientific approach to the paranormal
嘉莉·帕比: 用科学来解释超自然现象
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嘉莉·帕比被什么缠身了？是鬼或是什么更糟糕的东西吗？在这个演讲中，身为调查记者的嘉莉分享了令她感到毛骨悚然的遭遇，而你也会想要由此提醒并和你的朋友们解释为什么我们需要用科学来解释超自然现象。
Carrie Poppy - Writer, radio host, comedian
Carrie Poppy tells stories on the fringes of human experience through writing, live storytelling and radio. Full bio
Carrie Poppy tells stories on the fringes of human experience through writing, live storytelling and radio. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
Eight years ago, I was haunted
by an evil spirit.
by an evil spirit.
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八年前，我遭遇了闹鬼。
00:20
I was 25 at the time,
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那时我25岁，
00:22
and I was living in a tiny house
behind someone else's house
behind someone else's house
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在洛杉矶住在一个别人房子后面的
00:26
in Los Angeles.
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小房子里。
00:28
It was this guest house,
it had kind of been dilapidated,
it had kind of been dilapidated,
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那个房子是一个很破旧的客房，
00:31
not taken care of for a long time.
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很长时间没有人维护了。
00:34
And one night, I was sitting there
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一天晚上，我坐在里面，
00:38
and I got this really spooky feeling,
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然后觉得异常的阴森恐怖，
00:42
kind of the feeling
like you're being watched.
like you're being watched.
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仿佛有人在看着我。
00:45
But no one was there except my two dogs,
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但除了我跟我的两只狗以外，并无其他人，
00:48
and they were just chewing their feet.
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狗狗在咬它们的爪子。
00:51
And I looked around. No one was there.
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我又四处看了看。的确没人。
00:55
And I thought, OK,
it's just my imagination.
it's just my imagination.
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好吧，可能只是我的幻想吧。
00:59
But the feeling just kept getting worse,
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但这种感觉却愈加强烈，
01:02
and I started to feel
this pressure in my chest,
this pressure in my chest,
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我开始觉得胸闷，
01:07
sort of like the feeling
when you get bad news.
when you get bad news.
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就像你听到坏消息时候的那种感觉。
01:10
But it started to sink lower and lower
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胸越来越沉，
01:13
and almost hurt.
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都快疼起来了。
01:16
And over the course of that week,
this feeling got worse and worse,
this feeling got worse and worse,
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那一周里，这种感觉越来越糟糕。
01:19
and I started to become convinced
that something was there
that something was there
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我慢慢相信在我小小的客房里
01:25
in my little guest house, haunting me.
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真的有鬼在缠着我。
01:30
And I started to hear these sounds,
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同时，我也开始听见一些声音，
01:33
this "whoosh," kind of whisper,
like something passing through me.
like something passing through me.
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“呜呜呜，”仿佛有东西从我身上呼啸而过。
01:40
I called my best friend, Claire, and said,
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我打电话给了我最好的朋友，克莱尔，告诉她，
01:45
"I know this is going to sound crazy,
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你可能会觉得我疯了，
01:48
but, um ...
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但是……
01:50
I think there's a ghost in my house,
and I need to get rid of it."
and I need to get rid of it."
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我屋里有鬼，我得驱走它。
01:55
And she said -- she's very
open-minded -- and she said,
open-minded -- and she said,
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然后，非常开明的她，说道，
02:00
"I don't think you're crazy.
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我并不认为你疯了，
02:01
I think you just need
to do a cleansing ritual."
to do a cleansing ritual."
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我认为你需要一个驱魔法事。
02:05
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
02:07
"So get some sage and burn it,
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“找一些鼠尾草，然后烧掉，
02:12
and tell it to go away."
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把鬼驱走。”
02:15
So I said, "OK,"
and I went and I bought sage.
and I went and I bought sage.
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“好的，”我说道。然后买了鼠尾草来烧。
02:19
I had never done this before,
so I set the sage on fire,
so I set the sage on fire,
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我从没干过这种事情，我点燃了鼠尾草，
02:23
waved it about, and said, "Go away!
This is my house! I live here.
This is my house! I live here.
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四处挥舞，并说道，“快走！
这是我的房子，我住这儿。
这是我的房子，我住这儿。
02:29
You don't live here!"
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你才不住这儿呢！”
02:32
But the feeling stayed.
Nothing got better.
Nothing got better.
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但我仍然感觉异样，事情没有好转。
02:35
And then I started to think,
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然后我开始想，
02:38
OK, well now this thing is probably
just laughing at me,
just laughing at me,
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呵呵，这个鬼现在应该在嘲笑我吧，
02:40
because it hasn't left,
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因为它并没有被赶走。
02:43
and I probably just look like
this impotent, powerless thing
this impotent, powerless thing
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我差不多就是个赶不走鬼的
02:46
that couldn't get it to go away.
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废人了。
02:48
So every day I'd come home
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每天我回家，
02:52
and you guys, this feeling got so bad
that -- I mean, I'm laughing at it now --
that -- I mean, I'm laughing at it now --
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由于太过难受，我甚至每晚都坐在床上哭。
02:58
but I would sit there in bed
and cry every night.
and cry every night.
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现在回想觉得有点好笑。
03:03
And the feeling on my chest
got worse and worse.
got worse and worse.
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但当时我胸部的压迫感越来越严重，
03:08
It was physically painful.
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已经算生理上的疼痛了。
03:11
And I even went to a psychiatrist
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我甚至去看了一个精神科的医生，
03:14
and tried to get her
to prescribe me medicine,
to prescribe me medicine,
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试图能从她那儿开点药。
03:18
and she wouldn't just because
I don't have schizophrenia, OK.
I don't have schizophrenia, OK.
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她以我没有精神分裂为理由，拒绝了我。
03:22
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
03:25
So finally I got on the internet,
and I Googled "hauntings."
and I Googled "hauntings."
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最终，我上网，搜索了“闹鬼”。
03:32
And I came upon this forum
of ghost hunters.
of ghost hunters.
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我发现了一个猎鬼者聚集的论坛。
03:35
But these were a special
kind of ghost hunters --
kind of ghost hunters --
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其中有一群人——
03:38
they were skeptics.
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他们是怀疑论者，
03:39
They believed that every case of ghosts
that they had investigated so far
that they had investigated so far
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并坚信，每一例他们所调查过的闹鬼事件，
03:45
had been explained away by science.
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都能被科学澄清。
03:47
And I was like, "OK, smart guys,
this is what's happening to me,
this is what's happening to me,
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然后，我留言写下了我的经历，
03:51
and if you have an explanation for me,
I would love to hear it."
I would love to hear it."
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“学霸们，真想听一下你们
对我遭遇的事情作何解释。”
对我遭遇的事情作何解释。”
03:55
And one of them said, "OK.
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有一个人回复，“嗯。
03:58
Um, have you heard
of carbon monoxide poisoning?"
of carbon monoxide poisoning?"
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你有没有听过一氧化碳中毒？”
04:04
And I said, "Yeah.
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我回复，“有啊。
04:09
Like, gas poisoning?"
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是气体中毒么？”
04:12
Carbon monoxide poisoning
is when you have a gas leak
is when you have a gas leak
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一氧化碳中毒发生于煤气泄漏的时候，
04:15
leaking into your home.
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泄漏到了你家里。
04:17
I looked it up, and the symptoms
of carbon monoxide poisoning
of carbon monoxide poisoning
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我查了一氧化碳中毒的症状，
04:23
include a pressure on your chest,
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有胸闷，
04:26
auditory hallucinations -- whoosh --
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幻听——呼——
04:30
and an unexplained feeling of dread.
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及莫名的恐惧感。
04:35
So that night, I called the gas company.
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当晚，我就打电话给了煤气公司，
04:38
I said, "I have an emergency.
I need you to come out.
I need you to come out.
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“我这里有个紧急情况，需要你们马上过来一趟。
04:42
I don't want to get into the story now,
but I need you to come out."
but I need you to come out."
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你们先来，我一时半会儿说不完事情的前因后果。“
04:45
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
04:46
They came out. I said,
"I suspect a gas leak."
"I suspect a gas leak."
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他们来了，我说，“我怀疑有煤气泄漏。”
04:49
They brought their carbon
monoxide detector,
monoxide detector,
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然后他们用了一氧化碳探测器，
04:51
and the man said,
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其中一人说道，
04:54
"It's a really good thing
that you called us tonight,
that you called us tonight,
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“还好你今晚叫了我们，
04:57
because you could have been
dead very soon."
dead very soon."
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否则你很有可能很快就死掉了。“
05:01
Thirty-seven percent of Americans
believe in haunted houses,
believe in haunted houses,
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37%的美国人相信有房子会闹鬼，
05:07
and I wonder how many of them
have been in one
have been in one
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我想知道有多少人是遭遇过这样的房子，
05:11
and how many of them have been in danger.
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而有多少人其实是身处危险中的。
05:16
So that haunting story
has led me to my job.
has led me to my job.
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那段闹鬼遭遇，促使我做了现在的工作。
05:21
I'm an investigator, and I'm
an investigator in two senses:
an investigator in two senses:
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我是一个两种意义上的调查者，
05:24
I'm an investigative journalist,
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一来，我是一个调查记者，
05:26
and I'm also an investigator
of the claims of the paranormal
of the claims of the paranormal
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二来，我也是那些超自然事件的调查者，
05:29
and claims of the spiritual.
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调查那些关于鬼魂的事件。
05:31
And that means a few things.
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这就意味着，
05:32
Sometimes that means that I'm pretending
to need an exorcism
to need an exorcism
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有时我得假装我需要驱魔，
05:36
so I can get -- yes, that's right! --
so I can go to an exorcist
so I can go to an exorcist
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这样我才能，对了，去找驱魔师，
05:41
and see if he's using gimmicks
or psychological tricks
or psychological tricks
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看看他是不是在用诡计
05:45
to try to convince someone
that they're possessed.
that they're possessed.
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骗那些已经入魔了的人。
05:47
Sometimes that means
I'm going undercover in a fringe group
I'm going undercover in a fringe group
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有时候我得打入边缘群体内部，
05:51
which I report on
for a podcast that I co-host.
for a podcast that I co-host.
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这我也在播客里报道过。
05:54
And I've done over 70 investigations
like this with my co-host, Ross.
like this with my co-host, Ross.
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我和我的搭档罗斯一起
调查了类似的70宗事件。
调查了类似的70宗事件。
05:59
I would love to tell you
that nine times out of 10, science wins,
that nine times out of 10, science wins,
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我很想告诉大家，
90%的情况下，都是科学赢了，
90%的情况下，都是科学赢了，
06:04
saves the day, it's all explained.
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化险为夷，真相大白。
06:07
That's not true.
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但事实并非如此。
06:08
The truth is, 10 times out of 10,
science wins, it saves the day.
science wins, it saves the day.
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事实是，100%的情况下，
科学赢了，真相大白。
科学赢了，真相大白。
06:14
(Applause)
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（掌声）
06:27
And that doesn't mean
there's no such thing as a mystery.
there's no such thing as a mystery.
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这并不是说，世界上无迷可言。
06:29
Of course there are mysteries,
but a mystery is a mystery.
but a mystery is a mystery.
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当然有未解之谜，但迷就是迷。
06:33
It is not a ghost.
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不是鬼。
06:36
Now, I believe there are
two kinds of truth,
two kinds of truth,
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现在我认为，世上的真相有两种，
06:40
and it's taken me a while to get
to this place, but I think this is right,
to this place, but I think this is right,
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尽管我想了很久才得出这个结论，
但我认为它是正确的，
但我认为它是正确的，
06:44
so hear me out.
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所以请容我来谈一谈。
06:45
I think there is outer truth
and there's inner truth.
and there's inner truth.
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我认为世上有外在的真相和内在的真相。
06:48
So if you say to me,
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如果你对我说，
06:52
"There was a man named Jesus
and he once existed,"
and he once existed,"
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“曾有一个人叫耶稣，他曾存在过，”
06:54
that's outer truth, right?
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这是一个外在的事实对吧？
06:56
And we can go and look
at the historical record.
at the historical record.
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我们有历史记录可查。
06:58
We can determine
whether that seems to be true.
whether that seems to be true.
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我们可以决定这个事是否真实。
07:01
And I would argue,
it does seem to be true.
it does seem to be true.
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而且我觉得，的确像是真的。
07:03
If you say, "Jesus rose
from the dead," -- ooh, trickier.
from the dead," -- ooh, trickier.
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如果你说，“耶稣死而复生”——有点难办。
07:09
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
07:12
I would say that's an outer-truth claim,
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我会说这是一个客观事实的主张，
07:19
because he physically rose or he didn't.
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根据他是否复活的事实。
07:21
I'm not going to get into
whether he rose or he didn't,
whether he rose or he didn't,
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我不是要去证明他到底有没有复活，
07:24
but I would say
that's an outer-truth claim.
that's an outer-truth claim.
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而是说这是一个客观事实陈述。
07:26
It happened or it didn't happen.
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发生了，或者没有发生。
07:28
But if you say, "I don't care
whether he rose from the dead.
whether he rose from the dead.
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但如果你说：“不管他有没有复活，
07:31
It's symbolically important to me,
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这件事对我来说就是象征性地重要，
07:34
and that metaphor is so meaningful,
so purposeful to me,
so purposeful to me,
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这现象对我来说是非常有意义的、意味深远的，
07:37
and I'm not going to try
to persuade you of it,"
to persuade you of it,"
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而我也没有要尝试说服你同意我。
07:39
now you've moved it
from outer truth to inner truth,
from outer truth to inner truth,
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现在你已经把这从客观事实转换成主观事实，
07:42
from science to art.
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从科学转变成艺术。
07:44
And I think we have a tendency
to not be clear about this,
to not be clear about this,
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我认为我们有不想搞清楚这些事情的倾向，
07:47
to try to move our inner truths
to outer truths,
to outer truths,
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不想将我们认定的主观事实转换成客观事实，
07:50
or to not be fair about it to each other,
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或者给予这两种事实不公平的认同。
07:53
and when people are telling us
their inner truths,
their inner truths,
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在人们告诉我们他们的主观事实时
07:56
to try to make them defend them
by outer-truth standards.
by outer-truth standards.
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试着使主观事实抵御着客观事实的准则，
07:59
So I'm talking here about outer truth,
about objective things.
about objective things.
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所以我将要讨论和客观事情有关的客观事实
08:03
And there was an objective reality
in my haunted house, right?
in my haunted house, right?
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有个客观的事实在我被恶灵占据的房子，对吧？
08:08
Now that I've told you about the gas leak,
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现在我已经告诉你这是因为瓦斯外泄了，
08:10
I doubt a single person here
would be like,
would be like,
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但我怀疑这里有个人还是会觉得，
08:13
"I still think there was a ghost, too" --
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“我还是认为那里有鬼”——
08:15
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
08:16
because as soon as we have
these scientific explanations,
these scientific explanations,
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因为一当我们有这些科学解释时，
08:18
we know to give up the ghost.
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我们就知道该放弃有鬼的的想法了。
08:20
We use these things as stopgaps
for things that we can't explain.
for things that we can't explain.
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我们用这些想法来暂时解决
我们所无法解释的事情，
我们所无法解释的事情，
08:24
We don't believe them because of evidence;
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我们不因为有证据而不相信；
08:26
we believe them because
of a lack of evidence.
of a lack of evidence.
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我们却因为缺少证据而相信。
08:30
So there is a group in Los Angeles
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所以在洛杉矶有个组织，
08:32
called the Independent
Investigations Group, or the IIG,
Investigations Group, or the IIG,
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叫做独立调查组织，或是IIG（英文简称），
08:36
and they do great work.
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他们做得很棒。
08:38
They'll give a $10,000 prize
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他们提供10000美金的奖赏，
08:41
to anyone who can show,
under scientific conditions,
under scientific conditions,
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给任何可以在科学佐证下，
08:45
that they have a paranormal ability.
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展现他们超自然能力的人。
08:48
No one's done it yet,
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目前没有人做过这个，
08:49
but they've had a couple people
who claim that they were clairaudients,
who claim that they were clairaudients,
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但他们让几个声称他们有阴阳耳的人，
08:54
which means that they can hear voices
either from the great beyond
either from the great beyond
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也就是他们可以听到来自阴间的声音，
08:59
or they can read minds.
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或是有读心术。
09:00
And they had one person
who was very sincere,
who was very sincere,
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然后他们找了一个很诚实，
09:03
who believed that he could read minds.
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真的相信自己有读心术的人。
09:06
And a lot of these people --
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他们开始测试他，而这总是有效。
09:09
(Laughter)
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09:12
That wasn't a laugh line, but OK.
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这个组织说，
“好！我们有一套方法，
“好！我们有一套方法，
我们可以用科学方法验证你的能力。
09:15
A lot of these people really are sincere,
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你同意吗？“
那个人说好，然后他们开始测试。
09:20
and I believe this guy was.
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取得双方同意是非常重要的事情。
09:22
He really thought he had this power.
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他们开始测试他。
09:24
So they set up a test with him,
and this is the way it always works.
and this is the way it always works.
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他们说：“好，你知道吗？
你没有能力预测丽莎在想什么。
09:30
The group says, "OK, we have a protocol,
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这只是偶然的吻合。
09:32
we have a way to scientifically test this.
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你似乎没有超能力。“
09:34
Do you agree with it?"
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这给了他们一个赋予同理心的机会，
09:35
The person says yes. Then they test it.
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坐下来进行一个艰难的讨论，
09:37
It's very important that both sides agree.
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09:39
They did that, they tested him.
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09:42
They said, "OK, you know what?
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基本上等同于，
“嘿！我们知道你是诚实的，而我们的意思是，
09:44
You weren't able to predict
what Lisa was thinking.
what Lisa was thinking.
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09:48
It matched up about the same as chance.
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你真的听到了一些声音，
但只是来自你自己脑中。”
但只是来自你自己脑中。”
09:50
Looks like you don't have the power."
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而那个人需要作出一个艰难，
09:52
And that gave them the opportunity
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09:54
to compassionately sit down with him
and have a very difficult discussion,
and have a very difficult discussion,
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几乎要改变命运的决定，
关于是否要寻求协助。
关于是否要寻求协助。
09:59
which basically amounted to,
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10:01
"Hey, we know you're sincere,
and what that means is,
and what that means is,
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我们事实上是在帮助人们做出一些连结，
10:06
you do hear something in your head."
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将一些以前似乎会用
有另一个世界来解释的事情，
有另一个世界来解释的事情，
10:08
And that's a tough thing to face.
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10:11
(Laughter) (Applause)
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拉回到现实层面，
而这或许可以让我们的生活更美好。
而这或许可以让我们的生活更美好。
10:16
But that day, that guy got to make
the very difficult decision,
the very difficult decision,
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另一方面，或许哪天鬼会变成事实。
10:22
but really the life-changing decision
about whether to go get help.
about whether to go get help.
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或许我们会发现这世上真的有鬼。
这将会是最棒的事情！
10:29
(Laughter)
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每当我听到有关这方面的调查时，
我还是会非常兴奋，
10:31
But that really could be
the first day of the rest of your life,
the first day of the rest of your life,
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我就像是有75分感兴趣，
但当到达76分感兴趣时，
我就会说：“这就是了！”
我就会说：“这就是了！”
10:36
because when we challenge these beliefs,
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（笑声）
10:40
we're actually helping people
to make these connections
to make these connections
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或许我只是常常很乐观，
但我希望我不要失去这样的希望，
但我希望我不要失去这样的希望，
10:45
that maybe before seemed like
otherworldly explanations,
otherworldly explanations,
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我鼓励你采取一样的态度，
用在别人们和你分享他们的客观事实时。
10:50
help draw us into reality
and maybe change our lives for the better.
and maybe change our lives for the better.
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当谈论到可以辩论的主张时，
给他们足够的尊重，
让他们提出些很棒的问题。
让他们提出些很棒的问题。
10:57
Now, on the other hand,
maybe one time it'll turn out to be true.
maybe one time it'll turn out to be true.
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挑战并观察你可以怎么一起检视他们，
因为你无法相信一个看法，
11:03
Maybe we'll find out there are ghosts,
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2023
而一直挑战它，这是不对的。
11:05
and holy shit, it will be the best thing!
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11:08
And every time I do
one of these investigations,
one of these investigations,
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当我们转动锁，当我们检视主张，
11:10
I still get so excited,
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我们会说：好的，我尊重你，
我会听你想说的话，
我会听你想说的话，
11:12
and I'm like 75 into them,
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2063
11:14
and still I swear on number 76,
I'm going to be like, "This is the one!"
I'm going to be like, "This is the one!"
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我将会和你一起验证。
我们都有这样的经验，
当你在告诉某人某些事情时，
当你在告诉某人某些事情时，
11:18
(Laughter)
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11:20
Maybe I'm just eternally optimistic,
but I hope I never lose this hope,
but I hope I never lose this hope,
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他们会说：“哇，这真的非常有趣，对诶，”
你可以知道你被认同了。
11:24
and I invite you to take
this same attitude
this same attitude
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但当他们说：“真的吗？唔。
11:28
when people share
their outer beliefs with you.
their outer beliefs with you.
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这听起来有点陌生，不过我正在听。”
11:31
When talking about testable claims,
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至少你知道，你是被肯定且受尊重的。
11:33
respect them enough to ask
these good questions.
these good questions.
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这也是一种我们对他人看法
需要有表现的态度。
需要有表现的态度。
11:37
Challenge and see
how you can examine them together,
how you can examine them together,
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表现出你重视别人在说什么。
11:40
because there's this idea
that you can't respect a belief
that you can't respect a belief
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这是尊重。
11:44
and still challenge it,
but that's not true.
but that's not true.
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没错，多数的调查都没什么结果，
11:47
When we jiggle the lock,
when we test the claim,
when we test the claim,
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2747
11:49
we're saying, OK, I respect you,
I'm listening to what you're saying,
I'm listening to what you're saying,
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但这就是所有科学的运作方式。
到目前为止，每个治疗癌症的方法
都还没成功，
都还没成功，
11:53
I'm going to test it out with you.
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1992
11:55
We've all had that experience
where you're telling someone something,
where you're telling someone something,
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但我们并没有停止追寻。
11:59
and they're like, "Oh,
that's really interesting, yeah,"
that's really interesting, yeah,"
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这有两个原因。
第一，这答案很重要。
12:01
you know you're being had.
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2123
不管我们是探索晚年还是超自然现象，
或是癌症的治疗方法，
或是癌症的治疗方法，
12:04
But when someone says, "Really? Huh.
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这全部都指向一个共同的问题：
12:08
Sounds a little sketchy to me,
but I'm listening,"
but I'm listening,"
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我们需要花多少时间来解决这些问题？
12:10
you at least know
you're being engaged and respected.
you're being engaged and respected.
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2657
12:13
And that's the kind of attitude
we should have with these claims.
we should have with these claims.
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第二，因为寻找真相，
12:16
That's showing someone
that you care what they're saying.
that you care what they're saying.
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2707
敞开心胸，
乐于犯错并且改变你的世界观
12:19
That's respect.
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是令人振奋的。
12:25
Now, yes, most of these searches
will come up empty,
will come up empty,
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我每次听到有关鬼的故事
还是都非常兴奋。
还是都非常兴奋。
12:29
but that's how all of science works.
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1833
我依旧认为每个我加入的组织
很有可能是对的，
很有可能是对的，
12:32
Every cure for cancer so far
has not panned out,
has not panned out,
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而我也希望从不失去希望。
我们都别失去希望，
12:36
but we don't stop looking,
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2332
因为找寻客观的事实
12:38
for two reasons.
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1530
会帮助我们更了解内在事实。
12:40
Because number one, the answer matters.
219
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12:42
Whether it's looking at the afterlife
or the paranormal or the cure for cancer,
or the paranormal or the cure for cancer,
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750580
4022
除此之外，请大家在家里
安置一个一氧化碳检探测器。
安置一个一氧化碳检探测器。
12:46
it all amounts to the same question:
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12:48
How long will we be here?
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谢谢。
（掌声）
12:52
And two, because looking for the truth,
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3784
12:56
being open-minded,
224
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1309
12:57
and being willing to be wrong
and to change your whole worldview
and to change your whole worldview
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4369
13:02
is awe-inspiring.
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2048
13:05
I still get excited at ghost stories
every single time.
every single time.
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3813
13:09
I still consider that every group
I join might be right,
I join might be right,
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13:12
and I hope I never lose that hope.
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13:14
Let's all never lose that hope,
230
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13:15
because searching for what's out there
231
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13:18
helps us understand what's in here.
232
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13:21
And also, please have
a carbon monoxide detector in your home.
a carbon monoxide detector in your home.
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6461
13:29
Thank you.
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13:30
(Applause)
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ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Carrie Poppy - Writer, radio host, comedianCarrie Poppy tells stories on the fringes of human experience through writing, live storytelling and radio.
Why you should listen
On her podcast, Oh No, Ross and Carrie, Carrie Poppy and her cohost join fringe spiritual groups, undergo freaky alternative medical treatments, and examine any extraordinary claims that come their way. Oh No, Ross and Carrie receives millions of downloads a year and has been celebrated by outlets like The Guardian, The A.V. Club, Gizmodo, Boing Boing, SplitSider and many others. Poppy received her master's degree in investigative journalism from the University of Southern California, and her journalism work can be seen and heard in outlets across the internet and the airwaves. She is now writing a book about cults.
Carrie Poppy | Speaker | TED.com