TEDWomen 2010
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez: The mothers who found forgiveness, friendship
9.11的治愈：两位稳到谅解同友谊噶妈咪
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菲莉斯·罗德里格斯同艾莎·瓦非肩负着常人难以置信噶痛失，却在彼此间收获紧密的友情。罗德里格斯噶仔于2001年9月11日世贸大楼撞击后丧生；瓦非噶仔撒迦利亚·穆萨维因发动哩次袭击事件而被定罪并判处死刑。为了寻求和平，哩两位妈咪互相了解同互相尊重。
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez - 9/11 mothers
Aicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue. Full bio
Aicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:15
Phyllis Rodriguez: We are here today
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我地今日系哩度
00:18
because of the fact
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系因为
00:20
that we have what most people consider
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我地有一份好多人都觉得
00:22
an unusual friendship.
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不平凡噶友谊。
00:24
And it is.
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而且距的确系咁。
00:26
And yet, it feels natural to us now.
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现在，我地已经觉得好自然了。
00:29
I first learned
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当初知道
00:31
that my son had been in the World Trade Center
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我噶仔系2001年9月11日噶早上
00:35
on the morning of September 11th, 2001.
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入左世贸大楼。
00:39
We didn't know
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直到36个钟后
00:41
if he had perished yet
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我地先知道
00:43
until 36 hours later.
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距已经离开左。
00:48
At the time,
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果阵，
00:50
we knew that it was political.
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我知道同政治有关。
00:53
We were afraid of what our country was going to do
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我地担心国家会以我地个仔噶名义
00:56
in the name of our son --
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去做果D事
00:58
my husband, Orlando, and I and our family.
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我先生，奥兰多同埋我，我地一家人。
01:01
And when I saw it --
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系我睇到果阵
01:03
and yet, through the shock,
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不过，经历左哩种震惊，
01:05
the terrible shock,
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可怕噶震惊，
01:07
and the terrible explosion in our lives, literally,
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实质上生命中可怕噶震惊后，
01:13
we were not vengeful.
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我地并唔想报复。
01:16
And a couple of weeks later
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几个星期后
01:18
when Zacarias Moussaoui was indicted
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迦利亚·穆萨维受到指控
01:21
on six counts of conspiracy to commit terrorism,
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成为六名策划制造袭击噶恐怖分子之一，
01:26
and the U.S. government called for a death penalty
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美国政府将对距进行判决死刑，
01:29
for him, if convicted,
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如果定罪，
01:31
my husband and I spoke out
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我同我先生
01:34
in opposition to that, publicly.
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都会用完全唔同噶视角，群众噶角度探讨过哩D野。
01:37
Through that
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通过哩D
01:39
and through human rights groups,
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同埋人权组织，
01:41
we were brought together
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我地聚合埋一齐
01:43
with several other victims' families.
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仲有D其他受害者家属。
01:46
When I saw Aicha in the media,
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当我系媒体上见艾莎噶时候，
01:49
coming over when her son was indicted,
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距噶仔受到左指控，
01:52
and I thought, "What a brave woman.
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我想：“几咁勇敢噶女人啊。
01:55
Someday I want to meet that woman when I'm stronger."
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系我更加强大噶时候，我想见下哩个女人。“
01:58
I was still in deep grief;
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我仲沉浸于悲伤之中，
02:00
I knew I didn't have the strength.
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我知我唔够坚强。
02:02
I knew I would find her someday,
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我知终有一日我会稳到距，
02:04
or we would find each other.
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或者我地会互相稳到对方。
02:06
Because, when people heard that my son was a victim,
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因为，系人地听讲我噶仔受害后，
02:10
I got immediate sympathy.
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我即刻受到同情。
02:13
But when people learned
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但系当听到
02:15
what her son was accused of,
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距噶仔被指控果阵，
02:17
she didn't get that sympathy.
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距唔受到同情。
02:19
But her suffering is equal to mine.
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不过距同我一样甘痛苦。
02:22
So we met in November 2002,
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跟住我地系2002年11月见面了。
02:25
and Aicha will now tell you
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跟住落艾莎会话比你地听
02:28
how that came about.
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成件事系点噶。
02:33
(Translator) Aicha el-Wafi: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
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（译者）艾莎·瓦非：女士们先生们，下午好。
02:39
I am the mother of Zacarias Moussaoui.
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我系撒迦利亚·穆萨维噶妈咪。
02:48
And I asked
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我请求
02:53
the Organization of Human Rights
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人权组织
02:55
to put me in touch with the parents of the victims.
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比我同果D受害者家属联系。
03:03
So they introduced me
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于是距地就将我介绍比
03:06
to five families.
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5个家庭。
03:12
And I saw Phyllis, and I watched her.
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当我见到菲莉斯果阵，我注意到距。
03:17
She was the only mother in the group.
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距系哩个团体中唯一噶妈妈。
03:22
The others were brothers, sisters.
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其他都系兄弟姐妹。
03:28
And I saw in her eyes
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我从距噶眼神睇出
03:30
that she was a mother, just like me.
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距系一位妈咪，同我一样。
03:34
I suffered a lot as a mother.
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作为一个妈咪我都受到好多惨痛经历。
03:41
I was married when I was 14.
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我14岁结婚。
03:46
I lost a child when I was 15,
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15岁无左第一个细路
03:51
a second child when I was 16.
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16岁无左第二个。
03:57
So the story with Zacarias was too much really.
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所以撒迦利亚噶事对我来讲意味住好多野。
04:03
And I still suffer,
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我仲沉浸于悲痛当中，
04:07
because my son
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因为我噶仔
04:09
is like he's buried alive.
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就好似被活埋左咁。
04:14
I know she really cried for her son.
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我知道距的确为距噶仔悲痛欲绝。
04:19
But she knows where he is.
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但系距至少知道距系边。
04:28
My son, I don't know where he is.
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但我甚至唔知道我噶仔到底系边。
04:30
I don't know if he's alive. I don't know if he's tortured.
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唔知距是否生还，唔知有无被人虐待。
04:32
I don't know what happened to him.
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唔知距身上发生左咩。
04:38
So that's why I decided to tell my story,
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哩个亦系我决定讲述我噶故事噶原因，
04:40
so that my suffering is something positive for other women.
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令我噶痛苦可以帮到其他女性。
04:48
For all the women, all the mothers that give life,
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为左所有噶女性，所有赋予生命噶妈咪，
04:55
you can give back,
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可以恢复，
04:57
you can change.
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可以改变
04:59
It's up to us women,
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哩个决定于我地女性，
05:02
because we are women,
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因为我地系女人，
05:05
because we love our children.
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我地爱我地噶仔女。
05:13
We must be hand-in-hand
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我地一定要联合起来
05:15
and do something together.
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做一D野。
05:19
It's not against women,
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哩件事唔系要反对女性，
05:21
it's for us, for us women,
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系为左我地，我地女性，
05:23
for our children.
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为左我地噶仔女。
05:34
I talk against violence, against terrorism.
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我反对暴力，反对恐怖主义。
05:37
I go to schools
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我去学校
05:39
to talk to young, Muslim girls
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同果D年轻噶穆斯林女仔交流
05:42
so they don't accept to be married against their will very young.
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叫距地少年时期唔好接受违背意志噶婚姻。
05:58
So if I can save one of the young girls,
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如果我可以拯救一个女孩，
06:03
and avoid that they get married and suffer as much as I did,
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令到避免距地太早结婚好似我咁受苦受难，
06:06
well this is something good.
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至少就系一件好事。
06:10
This is why I'm here in front of you.
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所以我要企系你地面前。
06:12
PR: I would like to say
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菲莉斯·罗德里格斯：我想讲噶系
06:14
that I have learned so much from Aicha,
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我从艾沙身上学到好多野，
06:17
starting with that day we had our very first meeting
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回忆起我地第一次见面果阵
06:20
with other family members --
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仲有其他家庭
06:22
which was a very private meeting with security,
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哩个系一个受高度保护噶私下聚会，
06:25
because it was November 2002,
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因为果阵系2002年11月，
06:28
and, frankly, we were afraid of the super-patriotism of that time in the country --
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讲实话，我地好担心国内D爱国主义者
06:34
those of us family members.
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果D家庭成员。
06:38
But we were all so nervous.
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但系我地都好紧张。
06:41
"Why does she want to meet us?"
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”点解距想见我地？“
06:44
And then she was nervous.
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距都好紧张。
06:46
"Why did we want to meet her?"
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”点解我地想见距？“
06:48
What did we want from each other?
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我地互相之间可以得到咩呢？
06:52
Before we knew each others' names, or anything,
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系我地相互了解姓名同其他野之前，
06:55
we had embraced and wept.
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我地已经缆埋一齐喊晒。
06:57
Then we sat in a circle
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跟住我地坐成一圈
07:00
with support, with help,
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系相互和解噶气氛下同经历过哩件事噶人
07:02
from people experienced in this kind of reconciliation.
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相互支持，相互帮助。
07:06
And Aicha started,
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艾沙头先话
07:08
and she said,
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”我唔知道
07:10
"I don't know if my son
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我噶仔
07:13
is guilty or innocent,
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有罪定系无辜，
07:15
but I want to tell you how sorry I am
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但系我想话比你地噶系我对于发生系
07:18
for what happened to your families.
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你地屋企噶事感到非常非常抱歉。
07:23
I know what it is to suffer,
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我明白咁样好痛苦，
07:26
and I feel that if there is a crime,
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而且我认为，如果有人犯罪，
07:30
a person should be tried fairly and punished."
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距应该受到公平对待和惩罚。”
07:35
But she reached out to us in that way,
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距就系感样同我地接触。
07:39
and it was, I'd like to say, it was an ice-breaker.
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我想讲，哩个系一次破冰之旅。
07:43
And what happened then is we all told our stories,
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我地所讲噶故事就系所发生噶一切，
07:47
and we all connected as human beings.
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我地因人类而相互连接住
07:49
By the end of the afternoon --
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下午结束果阵
07:51
it was about three hours after lunch --
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大概系午饭后3个钟
07:55
we'd felt as if we'd known each other forever.
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我地觉得好似彼此之间永远了解咁。
07:57
Now what I learned from her,
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我从距身上学到噶系
07:59
is a woman, not only who could be so generous
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作为一个女人，可以变得如此宽容
08:02
under these present circumstances
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唔单单系当时噶情况下
08:04
and what it was then,
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当时发生噶事情，
08:06
and what was being done to her son,
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和距噶仔经历过噶惨痛遭遇，
08:08
but the life she's had.
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仲有距经历过噶人生。
08:10
I never had met
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系我经历果咁多唔同噶文化环境入边，
08:12
someone with such a hard life,
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我从来未见过
08:14
from such a totally different culture and environment from my own.
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命运如此坎坷噶人。
08:19
And I feel
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我觉得
08:21
that we have
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我地之间有种
08:23
a special connection,
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特别噶联系，
08:25
which I value very much.
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一种我好珍惜噶联系。
08:27
And I think it's all about
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我觉得哩个都系因为
08:30
being afraid of the other,
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我地互相之间噶关心，
08:32
but making that step
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但系当时做到哩步
08:35
and then realizing, "Hey, this wasn't so hard.
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会觉得：“啊，唔系咁难姐。”
08:38
Who else can I meet that I don't know,
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我仲可以见到D我唔了解噶人，
08:40
or that I'm so different from?"
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亦或者系同我地唔同噶人。
08:44
So, Aicha,
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艾沙
08:46
do you have a couple of words
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你仲有无野
08:48
for conclusion?
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需要总结吗？
08:50
Because our time is up.
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我地时间快到了
08:52
(Laughter)
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（笑声）
09:00
(Translator) AW: I wanted to say
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（译者）艾莎·瓦非：我想讲
09:02
that we have to try to know other people, the other.
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我地要尝试了解其他人、其他事情
09:08
You have to be generous,
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你要更加大方，
09:10
and your hearts must be generous,
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同埋你噶内心都要更加宽容，
09:12
your mind must be generous.
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你噶想法要更大宽容。
09:15
You must be tolerant.
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你要学识宽恕。
09:20
You have to fight against violence.
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我地不得不同暴力抗争
09:26
And I hope that someday we'll all live together
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我希望有一日我地会生活埋一齐
09:29
in peace and respecting each other.
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和平地在尊重人地
09:32
This is what I wanted to say.
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哩个就系我想讲噶。
09:34
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez - 9/11 mothersAicha el-Wafi and Phyllis Rodriguez met around a shared tragedy -- and their friendship has become a powerful symbol for forgiveness and dialogue.
Why you should listen
Phyllis Rodriguez is an artist, a teacher and a social justice activist. On September 11, 2001, her son Greg died in the attacks on the World Trade Center. Rodriguez and her husband wrote an open letter, "Not in Our Son's Name," calling on President Bush to oppose a military response in Afghanistan.
Aicha el-Wafi is an activist with the French feminist group Ni Putes Ni Soumise, working with Muslim women. Her son, Zacarias Moussaoui, was tried in relation to the attacks on US soil, and faced the possibility of execution if convicted.
In November 2002, Phyllis Rodriguez and several other relatives of victims of the attacks were invited to meet Aicha el-Wafi. Rodriguez and el-Wafi have since appeared together throughout Europe and the US, telling their story of reconciliation and forgiveness.
Aicha el-Wafi + Phyllis Rodriguez | Speaker | TED.com