TEDxStanford
Salil Dudani: How jails extort the poor
Filmed:
Readability: 3.8
1,115,590 views
Why do we jail people for being poor? Today, half a million Americans are in jail only because they can't afford to post bail, and still more are locked up because they can't pay their debt to the court, sometimes for things as minor as unpaid parking tickets. Salil Dudani shares stories from individuals who have experienced debtors' prison in Ferguson, Missouri, challenging us to think differently about how we punish the poor and marginalized.
Salil Dudani - Legal activist
Salil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing. Full bio
Salil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
One summer afternoon in 2013,
0
678
2596
00:15
DC police detained, questioned
and searched a man
and searched a man
1
3298
3128
00:18
who appeared suspicious
and potentially dangerous.
and potentially dangerous.
2
6450
3092
00:22
This wasn't what I was wearing
the day of the detention, to be fair,
the day of the detention, to be fair,
3
10316
3445
00:25
but I have a picture of that as well.
4
13785
1823
00:27
I know it's very frightening --
try to remain calm.
try to remain calm.
5
15632
2696
00:30
(Laughter)
6
18352
1093
00:31
At this time, I was interning
7
19469
2422
00:33
at the Public Defender Service
in Washington DC,
in Washington DC,
8
21915
2732
00:36
and I was visiting
a police station for work.
a police station for work.
9
24671
2419
00:39
I was on my way out,
10
27114
1160
00:40
and before I could make it to my car,
11
28298
1992
00:42
two police cars pulled up
to block my exit,
to block my exit,
12
30314
2301
00:44
and an officer approached me from behind.
13
32639
2331
00:46
He told me to stop, take my backpack off
14
34994
2272
00:49
and put my hands on the police car
parked next to us.
parked next to us.
15
37290
3076
00:52
About a dozen officers
then gathered near us.
then gathered near us.
16
40800
2995
00:55
All of them had handguns,
17
43819
1247
00:57
some had assault rifles.
18
45090
1340
00:58
They rifled through my backpack.
19
46454
1734
01:00
They patted me down.
20
48212
1405
01:01
They took pictures of me
spread on the police car,
spread on the police car,
21
49641
2361
01:04
and they laughed.
22
52026
1156
01:05
And as all this was happening --
23
53206
1540
01:06
as I was on the police car trying
to ignore the shaking in my legs,
to ignore the shaking in my legs,
24
54770
3250
01:10
trying to think clearly
about what I should do --
about what I should do --
25
58044
2335
01:12
something stuck out to me as odd.
26
60403
1999
01:14
When I look at myself in this photo,
27
62426
1994
01:16
if I were to describe myself,
28
64444
1835
01:18
I think I'd say something like,
29
66303
1787
01:20
"19-year-old Indian male,
bright T-shirt, wearing glasses."
bright T-shirt, wearing glasses."
30
68114
5389
01:25
But they weren't including
any of these details.
any of these details.
31
73527
2281
01:27
Into their police radios
as they described me,
as they described me,
32
75832
2250
01:30
they kept saying, "Middle Eastern
male with a backpack.
male with a backpack.
33
78106
2632
01:32
Middle Eastern male with a backpack."
34
80762
2029
01:34
And this description carried on
into their police reports.
into their police reports.
35
82815
3073
01:38
I never expected to be described
by my own government in these terms:
by my own government in these terms:
36
86419
4606
01:43
"lurking,"
37
91049
1258
01:45
"nefarious,"
38
93301
1231
01:47
"terrorist."
39
95832
1160
01:49
And the detention dragged on like this.
40
97016
1943
01:50
They sent dogs trained to smell explosives
to sweep the area I'd been in.
to sweep the area I'd been in.
41
98983
3878
01:54
They called the federal government
to see if I was on any watch lists.
to see if I was on any watch lists.
42
102885
3427
01:58
They sent a couple of detectives
to cross-examine me on why,
to cross-examine me on why,
43
106336
2851
02:01
if I claimed I had nothing to hide,
44
109211
2116
02:03
I wouldn't consent to a search of my car.
45
111351
2046
02:05
And I could see
they weren't happy with me,
they weren't happy with me,
46
113421
2061
02:07
but I felt I had no way of knowing
what they'd want to do next.
what they'd want to do next.
47
115506
3083
02:10
At one point, the officer
who patted me down
who patted me down
48
118613
2897
02:13
scanned the side of the police station
to see where the security camera was
to see where the security camera was
49
121534
3530
02:17
to see how much of this
was being recorded.
was being recorded.
50
125088
2872
02:19
And when he did that,
51
127984
1168
02:21
it really sank in how completely
I was at their mercy.
I was at their mercy.
52
129176
3470
02:24
I think we're all normalized
from a young age
from a young age
53
132670
2423
02:27
to the idea of police officers
and arrests and handcuffs,
and arrests and handcuffs,
54
135117
3753
02:30
so it's easy to forget how demeaning
and coercive a thing it is
and coercive a thing it is
55
138894
3942
02:34
to seize control over
another person's body.
another person's body.
56
142860
2905
02:37
I know it sounds like
the point of my story
the point of my story
57
145789
2045
02:39
is how badly treated I was
because of my race --
because of my race --
58
147858
2442
02:42
and yes, I don't think I would've been
detained if I were white.
detained if I were white.
59
150324
3120
02:45
But actually, what I have in mind
today is something else.
today is something else.
60
153468
2739
02:48
What I have in mind is how
much worse things might've been
much worse things might've been
61
156231
2718
02:50
if I weren't affluent.
62
158973
1164
02:52
I mean, they thought I might be trying
to plant an explosive,
to plant an explosive,
63
160161
2918
02:55
and they investigated that possibility
for an hour and a half,
for an hour and a half,
64
163103
3169
02:58
but I was never put in handcuffs,
65
166296
1712
03:00
I was never taken to a jail cell.
66
168032
2012
03:02
I think if I were from one of Washington
DC's poor communities of color,
DC's poor communities of color,
67
170068
4060
03:06
and they thought I was
endangering officers' lives,
endangering officers' lives,
68
174152
2423
03:08
things might've ended differently.
69
176599
1621
03:10
And in fact, in our system, I think
it's better to be an affluent person
it's better to be an affluent person
70
178244
3404
03:13
suspected of trying
to blow up a police station
to blow up a police station
71
181672
2288
03:15
than it is to be a poor person
72
183984
1667
03:17
who's suspected of much,
much less than this.
much less than this.
73
185675
2657
03:20
I want to give you an example
from my current work.
from my current work.
74
188356
2575
03:23
Right now, I'm working
at a civil rights organization in DC,
at a civil rights organization in DC,
75
191309
3250
03:26
called Equal Justice Under Law.
76
194583
2332
03:28
Let me start by asking you all a question.
77
196939
2909
03:31
How many of you have ever gotten
a parking ticket in your life?
a parking ticket in your life?
78
199872
2987
03:34
Raise your hand.
79
202883
1164
03:36
Yeah. So have I.
80
204071
1946
03:38
And when I had to pay it,
81
206041
1333
03:39
it felt annoying and it felt bad,
82
207398
2031
03:41
but I paid it and I moved on.
83
209453
1916
03:43
I'm guessing most of you
have paid your tickets as well.
have paid your tickets as well.
84
211393
2691
03:46
But what would happen if you
couldn't afford the amount on the ticket
couldn't afford the amount on the ticket
85
214616
4287
03:50
and your family doesn't have
the money either, what happens then?
the money either, what happens then?
86
218927
3170
03:54
Well, one thing that's not supposed
to happen under the law is,
to happen under the law is,
87
222121
2991
03:57
you're not supposed to be
arrested and jailed
arrested and jailed
88
225136
2104
03:59
simply because you can't afford to pay.
89
227264
2096
04:01
That's illegal under federal law.
90
229384
1804
04:03
But that's what local governments
across the country are doing
across the country are doing
91
231212
2928
04:06
to people who are poor.
92
234164
1157
04:07
And so many of our lawsuits
at Equal Justice Under Law
at Equal Justice Under Law
93
235345
2920
04:10
target these modern-day debtors' prisons.
94
238289
2453
04:13
One of our cases is against
Ferguson, Missouri.
Ferguson, Missouri.
95
241771
2721
04:16
And I know when I say Ferguson,
96
244516
1824
04:18
many of you will think of police violence.
97
246364
2098
04:20
But today I want to talk
about a different aspect
about a different aspect
98
248486
2287
04:22
of the relationship between
their police force and their citizens.
their police force and their citizens.
99
250797
3466
04:26
Ferguson was issuing an average
of over two arrest warrants,
of over two arrest warrants,
100
254287
3534
04:29
per person, per year,
101
257845
2007
04:31
mostly for unpaid debt to the courts.
102
259876
2248
04:34
When I imagine what that would feel like
if, every time I left my house,
if, every time I left my house,
103
262996
4023
04:39
there was a chance a police officer
would run my license plate,
would run my license plate,
104
267043
3100
04:42
see a warrant for unpaid debt,
105
270167
1691
04:43
seize my body they way the did in DC
106
271882
2130
04:46
and then take me to a jail cell,
107
274036
1917
04:47
I feel a little sick.
108
275977
1634
04:50
I've met many of the people in Ferguson
who have experienced this,
who have experienced this,
109
278838
3156
04:54
and I've heard some of their stories.
110
282018
1787
04:55
In Ferguson's jail,
111
283829
1368
04:57
in each small cell,
there's a bunk bed and a toilet,
there's a bunk bed and a toilet,
112
285221
3109
05:00
but they'd pack four people
into each cell.
into each cell.
113
288354
2302
05:02
So there'd be two people on the bunks
and two people on the floor,
and two people on the floor,
114
290680
3115
05:05
one with nowhere to go except
right next to the filthy toilet,
right next to the filthy toilet,
115
293819
2927
05:08
which was never cleaned.
116
296770
1160
05:09
In fact, the whole cell was never cleaned,
117
297954
2163
05:12
so the floor and the walls were lined
with blood and mucus.
with blood and mucus.
118
300141
3555
05:16
No water to drink,
119
304088
1150
05:17
except coming out of a spigot
connected to the toilet.
connected to the toilet.
120
305262
2704
05:19
The water looked and tasted dirty,
121
307990
1720
05:21
there was never enough food,
122
309734
1515
05:23
never any showers,
123
311273
1548
05:24
women menstruating
without any hygiene products,
without any hygiene products,
124
312845
2790
05:27
no medical attention whatsoever.
125
315659
1694
05:29
When I asked a woman
about medical attention,
about medical attention,
126
317377
2180
05:31
she laughed, and she said, "Oh, no, no.
127
319581
2395
05:34
The only attention you get
from the guards in there is sexual."
from the guards in there is sexual."
128
322000
3145
05:37
So, they'd take the debtors
to this place and they'd say,
to this place and they'd say,
129
325838
2720
05:40
"We're not letting you leave
until you make a payment on your debt."
until you make a payment on your debt."
130
328582
3536
05:44
And if you could -- if you
could call a family member
could call a family member
131
332142
2630
05:46
who could somehow come up with some money,
132
334796
2141
05:48
then maybe you were out.
133
336961
1393
05:50
If it was enough money, you were out.
134
338378
2159
05:52
But if it wasn't, you'd stay there
for days or weeks,
for days or weeks,
135
340561
3318
05:55
and every day the guards
would come down to the cells
would come down to the cells
136
343903
2786
05:58
and haggle with the debtors
about the price of release that day.
about the price of release that day.
137
346713
3387
06:02
You'd stay until, at some point,
the jail would be booked to capacity,
the jail would be booked to capacity,
138
350625
4122
06:06
and they'd want to book someone new in.
139
354771
1950
06:08
And at that point, they'd think,
140
356745
1561
06:10
"OK, it's unlikely this person
can come up with the money,
can come up with the money,
141
358330
2755
06:13
it's more likely this new person will."
142
361109
1860
06:14
You're out, they're in,
and the machine kept moving like that.
and the machine kept moving like that.
143
362993
2978
06:17
I met a man who,
144
365995
2026
06:20
nine years ago, was arrested
for panhandling in a Walgreens.
for panhandling in a Walgreens.
145
368045
4267
06:24
He couldn't afford his fines
and his court fees from that case.
and his court fees from that case.
146
372336
4056
06:28
When he was young
he survived a house fire,
he survived a house fire,
147
376416
2996
06:31
only because he jumped out
of the third-story window to escape.
of the third-story window to escape.
148
379436
2973
06:34
But that fall left him
with damage to his brain
with damage to his brain
149
382433
2201
06:36
and several parts of this body,
including his leg.
including his leg.
150
384658
2435
06:39
So he can't work,
151
387117
1159
06:40
and he relies on social security
payments to survive.
payments to survive.
152
388300
2502
06:42
When I met him in his apartment,
153
390826
1686
06:44
he had nothing of value there --
not even food in his fridge.
not even food in his fridge.
154
392536
2879
06:47
He's chronically hungry.
155
395439
1165
06:48
He had nothing of value in his apartment
except a small piece of cardboard
except a small piece of cardboard
156
396628
3479
06:52
on which he'd written
the names of his children.
the names of his children.
157
400131
2238
06:54
He cherished this a lot.
He was happy to show it to me.
He was happy to show it to me.
158
402389
2572
06:56
But he can't pay his fines and fees
because he has nothing to give.
because he has nothing to give.
159
404991
3150
07:00
In the last nine years,
he's been arrested 13 times,
he's been arrested 13 times,
160
408175
3366
07:03
and jailed for a total of 130 days
on that panhandling case.
on that panhandling case.
161
411565
4331
07:08
One of those stretches lasted 45 days.
162
416659
3048
07:11
Just imagine spending from right now
until sometime in June
until sometime in June
163
419731
4406
07:16
in the place that I described to you
a few moments ago.
a few moments ago.
164
424161
2796
07:20
He told me about all the suicide attempts
he's seen in Ferguson's jail;
he's seen in Ferguson's jail;
165
428616
4081
07:24
about the time a man found
a way to hang himself
a way to hang himself
166
432721
2273
07:27
out of reach of the other inmates,
167
435018
1660
07:28
so all they could do
was yell and yell and yell,
was yell and yell and yell,
168
436702
3162
07:31
trying to get the guards' attention
169
439888
1740
07:33
so they could come down and cut him down.
170
441652
1993
07:35
And he told me that it took the guards
over five minutes to respond,
over five minutes to respond,
171
443669
3436
07:39
and when they came,
the man was unconscious.
the man was unconscious.
172
447129
2268
07:41
So they called the paramedics
and the paramedics went to the cell.
and the paramedics went to the cell.
173
449421
3171
07:44
They said, "He'll be OK,"
174
452616
1332
07:45
so they just left him there on the floor.
175
453972
2204
07:48
I heard many stories like this
and they shouldn't have surprised me,
and they shouldn't have surprised me,
176
456200
3294
07:51
because suicide is the single leading
cause of death in our local jails.
cause of death in our local jails.
177
459518
3552
07:55
This is related to the lack
of mental health care in our jails.
of mental health care in our jails.
178
463852
2987
07:58
I met a woman, single mother of three,
making seven dollars an hour.
making seven dollars an hour.
179
466863
3920
08:02
She relies on food stamps
to feed herself and her children.
to feed herself and her children.
180
470807
2792
08:06
About a decade ago,
181
474108
1544
08:07
she got a couple of traffic tickets
and a minor theft charge,
and a minor theft charge,
182
475676
3765
08:11
and she can't afford her fines
and fees on those cases.
and fees on those cases.
183
479465
2768
08:14
Since then, she's been jailed
about 10 times on those cases,
about 10 times on those cases,
184
482726
3500
08:18
but she has schizophrenia
and bipolar disorder,
and bipolar disorder,
185
486250
2283
08:20
and she needs medication every day.
186
488557
2151
08:22
She doesn't have access
to those medications in Ferguson's jail,
to those medications in Ferguson's jail,
187
490732
3038
08:25
because no one has access
to their medications.
to their medications.
188
493794
2216
08:28
She told me about what it was like
to spend two weeks in a cage,
to spend two weeks in a cage,
189
496034
4026
08:32
hallucinating people and shadows
and hearing voices,
and hearing voices,
190
500084
3553
08:35
begging for the medication
that would make it all stop,
that would make it all stop,
191
503661
2594
08:38
only to be ignored.
192
506279
1370
08:40
And this isn't anomalous, either:
193
508370
1846
08:42
thirty percent of women in our local jails
have serious mental health needs
have serious mental health needs
194
510240
3525
08:45
just like hers,
195
513789
1156
08:46
but only one in six receives
any mental health care while in jail.
any mental health care while in jail.
196
514969
4517
08:51
And so, I heard all these stories
about this grotesque dungeon
about this grotesque dungeon
197
519510
3825
08:55
that Ferguson was operating
for its debtors,
for its debtors,
198
523359
2198
08:57
and when it came time
for me to actually see it
for me to actually see it
199
525581
2293
08:59
and to go visit Ferguson's jail,
200
527898
1954
09:01
I'm not sure what I was expecting to see,
201
529876
2040
09:03
but I wasn't expecting this.
202
531940
1954
09:06
It's an ordinary government building.
203
534495
1839
09:08
It could be a post office or a school.
204
536358
2456
09:10
It reminded me that these illegal
extortion schemes
extortion schemes
205
538838
3692
09:14
aren't being run somewhere in the shadows,
206
542554
2088
09:16
they're being run out in the open
by our public officials.
by our public officials.
207
544666
2716
09:19
They're a matter of public policy.
208
547406
1700
09:21
And this reminded me
that poverty jailing in general,
that poverty jailing in general,
209
549130
2839
09:23
even outside the debtors' prison context,
210
551993
2208
09:26
plays a very visible and central role
in our justice system.
in our justice system.
211
554225
2921
09:29
What I have in mind is our policy of bail.
212
557818
2212
09:32
In our system, whether
you're detained or free,
you're detained or free,
213
560054
2552
09:34
pending trial is not a matter
of how dangerous you are
of how dangerous you are
214
562630
3130
09:37
or how much of a flight risk you pose.
215
565784
2248
09:40
It's a matter of whether you can afford
to post your bail amount.
to post your bail amount.
216
568056
3086
09:43
So Bill Cosby, whose bail
was set at a million dollars,
was set at a million dollars,
217
571166
2712
09:45
immediately writes the check,
and doesn't spend a second in a jail cell.
and doesn't spend a second in a jail cell.
218
573902
3460
09:49
But Sandra Bland, who died in jail,
219
577386
1732
09:51
was only there because her family
was unable to come up with 500 dollars.
was unable to come up with 500 dollars.
220
579142
3998
09:55
In fact, there are half a million
Sandra Blands across the country --
Sandra Blands across the country --
221
583164
3387
09:58
500,000 people who are in jail right now,
222
586575
2266
10:00
only because they can't afford
their bail amount.
their bail amount.
223
588865
2661
10:03
We're told that our jails
are places for criminals,
are places for criminals,
224
591550
3057
10:06
but statistically that's not the case:
225
594631
2013
10:08
three out of every five people
in jail right now are there pretrial.
in jail right now are there pretrial.
226
596668
4301
10:12
They haven't been convicted of any crime;
227
600993
2182
10:15
they haven't pled guilty to any offense.
228
603199
2511
10:18
Right here in San Francisco,
229
606351
1344
10:19
85 percent of the inmates
in our jail in San Francisco
in our jail in San Francisco
230
607719
3390
10:23
are pretrial detainees.
231
611133
1744
10:24
This means San Francisco is spending
something like 80 million dollars
something like 80 million dollars
232
612901
3385
10:28
every year
233
616310
1170
10:29
to fund pretrial detention.
234
617504
1716
10:33
Many of these people who are in jail
only because they can't post bail
only because they can't post bail
235
621240
4419
10:37
are facing allegations so minor
236
625683
2246
10:39
that the amount of time it would take
for them to sit waiting for trial
for them to sit waiting for trial
237
627953
3383
10:43
is longer than the sentence
they would receive if convicted,
they would receive if convicted,
238
631360
3052
10:46
which means they're guaranteed
to get out faster
to get out faster
239
634436
2268
10:48
if they just plead guilty.
240
636728
1284
10:50
So now the choice is:
241
638036
1559
10:51
Should I stay here in this horrible place,
242
639619
2873
10:54
away from my family and my dependents,
243
642516
2110
10:56
almost guaranteed to lose my job,
244
644650
2477
10:59
and then fight the charges?
245
647151
1621
11:00
Or should I just plead guilty to whatever
the prosecutor wants and get out?
the prosecutor wants and get out?
246
648796
3569
11:04
And at this point, they're pretrial
detainees, not criminals.
detainees, not criminals.
247
652389
2935
11:07
But once they take that plea deal,
we'll call them criminals,
we'll call them criminals,
248
655348
2892
11:10
even though an affluent person
would never have been in this situation,
would never have been in this situation,
249
658264
3380
11:13
because an affluent person
would have simply been bailed out.
would have simply been bailed out.
250
661668
2874
11:16
At this point you might be wondering,
251
664566
2090
11:18
"This guy's in the inspiration section,
what is he doing --
what is he doing --
252
666680
2794
11:21
(Laughter)
253
669498
1160
11:22
"This is extremely depressing.
I want my money back."
I want my money back."
254
670682
2806
11:25
(Laughter)
255
673512
1206
11:26
But in actuality,
256
674742
2399
11:29
I find talking about jailing much less
depressing than the alternative,
depressing than the alternative,
257
677165
4390
11:33
because I think if we don't talk
about these issues
about these issues
258
681579
2436
11:36
and collectively change
how we think about jailing,
how we think about jailing,
259
684039
2401
11:38
at the end of all of our lives,
260
686464
1504
11:39
we'll still have jails full of poor people
who don't belong there.
who don't belong there.
261
687992
3131
11:43
That really is depressing to me.
262
691147
1554
11:44
But what's exciting to me is the thought
that these stories can move us
that these stories can move us
263
692725
3424
11:48
to think about jailing in different terms.
264
696173
2043
11:50
Not in sterile policy terms
like "mass incarceration,"
like "mass incarceration,"
265
698240
3371
11:53
or "sentencing of nonviolent offenders,"
266
701635
1986
11:55
but in human terms.
267
703645
1166
11:56
When we put a human being in a cage
for days or weeks or months
for days or weeks or months
268
704835
4585
12:01
or even years,
269
709444
1444
12:02
what are we doing
to that person's mind and body?
to that person's mind and body?
270
710912
2349
12:05
Under what conditions
are we really willing to do that?
are we really willing to do that?
271
713285
2758
12:08
And so if starting with a few
hundred of us in this room,
hundred of us in this room,
272
716569
2806
12:11
we can commit to thinking about
jailing in this different light,
jailing in this different light,
273
719399
3044
12:14
then we can undo that normalization
I was referring to earlier.
I was referring to earlier.
274
722467
3480
12:17
If I leave you with anything today,
I hope it's with the thought
I hope it's with the thought
275
725971
3038
12:21
that if we want anything
to fundamentally change --
to fundamentally change --
276
729033
2432
12:23
not just to reform our policies
on bail and fines and fees --
on bail and fines and fees --
277
731489
3280
12:26
but also to make sure that whatever
new policies replace those
new policies replace those
278
734793
3053
12:29
don't punish the poor and the marginalized
in their own new way.
in their own new way.
279
737870
3051
12:32
If we want that kind of change,
280
740945
1632
12:34
then this shift in thinking
is required of each of us.
is required of each of us.
281
742601
2525
12:37
Thank you.
282
745150
1184
12:38
(Applause)
283
746358
3670
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Salil Dudani - Legal activistSalil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing.
Why you should listen
As a John Gardner Public Service fellow, Salil Dudani worked on civil rights cases challenging debtors' prisons and money bail. These included cases in Ferguson, Missouri, where people who could not pay fines and court fees were routinely jailed; Rutherford County, Tennessee, where a private probation company would extort impoverished probationers with the threat of jail; and San Francisco and Houston, where thousands of people are in jail cells every night because they cannot afford to post bail. Before this work, Salil was a defense investigator at the Public Defender Service in Washington, D.C. He is now a student at Yale Law School.
Salil Dudani | Speaker | TED.com