TEDxStanford
Salil Dudani: How jails extort the poor
Salil Dudani: 监狱如何敲诈穷人
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为什么人们因为贫穷而坐牢？今天，50万美国人仅因为付不起保释金而坐牢，还有更多人因为不能向法院支付债务而被关押，有时甚至是未支付的停车罚单这样的小事。Salil Dudani分享了经历过密苏里州弗格森市债务人监狱的人们的故事，挑战我们以不同的方式思考社会是如何惩罚穷人和边缘化群体的。
Salil Dudani - Legal activist
Salil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing. Full bio
Salil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing. Full bio
Double-click the English transcript below to play the video.
00:12
One summer afternoon in 2013,
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2013年夏天的一个下午，
00:15
DC police detained, questioned
and searched a man
and searched a man
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华盛顿特区的警察拘留、讯问
并搜查了一名
并搜查了一名
00:18
who appeared suspicious
and potentially dangerous.
and potentially dangerous.
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看起来可疑和并有潜在危险的男子。
00:22
This wasn't what I was wearing
the day of the detention, to be fair,
the day of the detention, to be fair,
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说实话，
这不是我被拘留那天的样子
这不是我被拘留那天的样子
00:25
but I have a picture of that as well.
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但那天的照片我也有。
00:27
I know it's very frightening --
try to remain calm.
try to remain calm.
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我知道这很吓人 ，
请大家尽量保持冷静。
请大家尽量保持冷静。
（笑声）
00:30
(Laughter)
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00:31
At this time, I was interning
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那时候，我是实习生
00:33
at the Public Defender Service
in Washington DC,
in Washington DC,
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在华盛顿特区的公设律师处实习，
00:36
and I was visiting
a police station for work.
a police station for work.
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当时我为了工作的事去的警察局。
00:39
I was on my way out,
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在我走出警局，
00:40
and before I could make it to my car,
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还没走到我的车时，
00:42
two police cars pulled up
to block my exit,
to block my exit,
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两辆警车开到我前面挡住我去路，
00:44
and an officer approached me from behind.
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一名警察从后面靠近我。
00:46
He told me to stop, take my backpack off
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他让我停下，把背包拿下来
00:49
and put my hands on the police car
parked next to us.
parked next to us.
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把手放在停在旁边的警车上。
00:52
About a dozen officers
then gathered near us.
then gathered near us.
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然后大约十多个警察
聚集在我们周围。
聚集在我们周围。
00:55
All of them had handguns,
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他们全都有手枪，
00:57
some had assault rifles.
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有些警察有突击步枪。
00:58
They rifled through my backpack.
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他们搜遍了我的背包
01:00
They patted me down.
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他们把我拍趴下
01:01
They took pictures of me
spread on the police car,
spread on the police car,
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他们给趴在警车上的我拍照，
01:04
and they laughed.
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他们还在笑。
01:05
And as all this was happening --
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在这一切发生的时候 --
01:06
as I was on the police car trying
to ignore the shaking in my legs,
to ignore the shaking in my legs,
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当我趴在警车上努力无视
我发抖的双腿，
我发抖的双腿，
01:10
trying to think clearly
about what I should do --
about what I should do --
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试图清醒地思考，我该做什么 --
01:12
something stuck out to me as odd.
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我突然想到些奇怪的事情。
01:14
When I look at myself in this photo,
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看看这张照片里的我自己，
01:16
if I were to describe myself,
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如果让我描述我自己，
01:18
I think I'd say something like,
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我想我会这样描述，
01:20
"19-year-old Indian male,
bright T-shirt, wearing glasses."
bright T-shirt, wearing glasses."
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“19岁印度男性，亮色半袖，
戴眼镜。”
戴眼镜。”
01:25
But they weren't including
any of these details.
any of these details.
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但警察并没提任何细节，
01:27
Into their police radios
as they described me,
as they described me,
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他们在向对讲机描述我时
01:30
they kept saying, "Middle Eastern
male with a backpack.
male with a backpack.
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一直在说，“中东男性，有背包。
01:32
Middle Eastern male with a backpack."
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中东男性，有背包。”
01:34
And this description carried on
into their police reports.
into their police reports.
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这个描述也写入了他们的
警方报告中。
警方报告中。
01:38
I never expected to be described
by my own government in these terms:
by my own government in these terms:
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我从没想到过被自己的政府用
这些词形容：
这些词形容：
01:43
"lurking,"
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“潜藏”，
01:45
"nefarious,"
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“邪恶的”，
01:47
"terrorist."
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“恐怖分子”。
01:49
And the detention dragged on like this.
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而我被继续拘留着，
01:50
They sent dogs trained to smell explosives
to sweep the area I'd been in.
to sweep the area I'd been in.
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他们派了训练用于闻爆炸物的狗
搜索我停留过的区域。
搜索我停留过的区域。
01:54
They called the federal government
to see if I was on any watch lists.
to see if I was on any watch lists.
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他们给联邦政府打电话，
查我是不是在监管名单里。
查我是不是在监管名单里。
01:58
They sent a couple of detectives
to cross-examine me on why,
to cross-examine me on why,
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他们派了两个侦探盘问我，
为什么 --
为什么 --
02:01
if I claimed I had nothing to hide,
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我说我没什么可隐瞒的
02:03
I wouldn't consent to a search of my car.
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却不同意警方搜查我的车。
02:05
And I could see
they weren't happy with me,
they weren't happy with me,
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我能明白他们对我的不满，
02:07
but I felt I had no way of knowing
what they'd want to do next.
what they'd want to do next.
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但我完全不知道他们下一步
要做什么。
要做什么。
02:10
At one point, the officer
who patted me down
who patted me down
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把我拍趴下的警察一度
02:13
scanned the side of the police station
to see where the security camera was
to see where the security camera was
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扫描了警局的一侧，
看安保摄像头在哪
看安保摄像头在哪
02:17
to see how much of this
was being recorded.
was being recorded.
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以便了解这件事能被录下来多少。
02:19
And when he did that,
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当他那么做时，
02:21
it really sank in how completely
I was at their mercy.
I was at their mercy.
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真的说明了，
我是多么彻底地任他们摆布。
我是多么彻底地任他们摆布。
02:24
I think we're all normalized
from a young age
from a young age
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从年幼时代开始，我们
02:27
to the idea of police officers
and arrests and handcuffs,
and arrests and handcuffs,
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对警察、拘捕和手铐的认知
被正常化，
被正常化，
02:30
so it's easy to forget how demeaning
and coercive a thing it is
and coercive a thing it is
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所以我们容易忘了，
对他人身体的控制
对他人身体的控制
是件多么贬低和强制性的事。
02:34
to seize control over
another person's body.
another person's body.
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听上去我的故事的重点好像是
02:37
I know it sounds like
the point of my story
the point of my story
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02:39
is how badly treated I was
because of my race --
because of my race --
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因为我的种族，我被恶劣地对待，
02:42
and yes, I don't think I would've been
detained if I were white.
detained if I were white.
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确实，如果我是白人，
我觉得不会被拘捕。
我觉得不会被拘捕。
02:45
But actually, what I have in mind
today is something else.
today is something else.
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但是，今天我想的是另一件事。
02:48
What I have in mind is how
much worse things might've been
much worse things might've been
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我想的是，如果我不是个富人
事情会变的多糟糕。
02:50
if I weren't affluent.
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02:52
I mean, they thought I might be trying
to plant an explosive,
to plant an explosive,
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警察以为我想安放爆炸物，
他们对这调查了一个半小时，
02:55
and they investigated that possibility
for an hour and a half,
for an hour and a half,
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但我并没有被戴上手铐，
02:58
but I was never put in handcuffs,
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03:00
I was never taken to a jail cell.
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我也没有被送进牢房。
03:02
I think if I were from one of Washington
DC's poor communities of color,
DC's poor communities of color,
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如果我来自华盛顿特区
最贫穷的有色人种族群，
最贫穷的有色人种族群，
03:06
and they thought I was
endangering officers' lives,
endangering officers' lives,
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而警察认为我威胁到了警员的生命，
03:08
things might've ended differently.
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事情可能会有不同的结局。
03:10
And in fact, in our system, I think
it's better to be an affluent person
it's better to be an affluent person
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事实上，在我们的体制中，我觉得
做个有炸掉警察局嫌疑的富人
03:13
suspected of trying
to blow up a police station
to blow up a police station
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要比做个有小案子嫌疑的穷人
03:15
than it is to be a poor person
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03:17
who's suspected of much,
much less than this.
much less than this.
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更好一些。
03:20
I want to give you an example
from my current work.
from my current work.
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我想举个现在我工作中的一个例子
03:23
Right now, I'm working
at a civil rights organization in DC,
at a civil rights organization in DC,
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如今，我在华盛顿民权组织工作
03:26
called Equal Justice Under Law.
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该组织称为“法律下的平等正义”。
03:28
Let me start by asking you all a question.
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首先让我问你们所有人一个问题
03:31
How many of you have ever gotten
a parking ticket in your life?
a parking ticket in your life?
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有多少人曾拿过停车罚单？
03:34
Raise your hand.
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请举手。
03:36
Yeah. So have I.
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是啊，我也拿过。
03:38
And when I had to pay it,
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当我必须交罚款时
03:39
it felt annoying and it felt bad,
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感觉有点讨厌，不高兴，
03:41
but I paid it and I moved on.
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但我交了罚款，然后就忘了它。
03:43
I'm guessing most of you
have paid your tickets as well.
have paid your tickets as well.
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我猜你们绝大多数也是交了罚款的。
03:46
But what would happen if you
couldn't afford the amount on the ticket
couldn't afford the amount on the ticket
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但是如果你付不起罚款额，
会发生什么呢？
会发生什么呢？
03:50
and your family doesn't have
the money either, what happens then?
the money either, what happens then?
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而且你的家人也没有钱，
那会发生什么？
那会发生什么？
03:54
Well, one thing that's not supposed
to happen under the law is,
to happen under the law is,
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在法律面前，
有一件不应该发生的事情是
有一件不应该发生的事情是
03:57
you're not supposed to be
arrested and jailed
arrested and jailed
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你不应该仅仅因为付不起罚款
就被捕，送监。
03:59
simply because you can't afford to pay.
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04:01
That's illegal under federal law.
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那在联邦法律下是违法的。
04:03
But that's what local governments
across the country are doing
across the country are doing
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但这个国家的各个地方政府
04:06
to people who are poor.
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对穷人就是这么做的。
04:07
And so many of our lawsuits
at Equal Justice Under Law
at Equal Justice Under Law
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在“法律下的平等正义”组织，
太多的诉讼
太多的诉讼
04:10
target these modern-day debtors' prisons.
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就是关于这些现代欠债人的监狱。
04:13
One of our cases is against
Ferguson, Missouri.
Ferguson, Missouri.
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我们的一个案子是
诉密苏里州弗格森市。
诉密苏里州弗格森市。
04:16
And I know when I say Ferguson,
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我知道一提到弗格森，
04:18
many of you will think of police violence.
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很多人会想到警察暴力。
04:20
But today I want to talk
about a different aspect
about a different aspect
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但今天我想说说另一方面，
04:22
of the relationship between
their police force and their citizens.
their police force and their citizens.
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警力与公民之间的关系。
04:26
Ferguson was issuing an average
of over two arrest warrants,
of over two arrest warrants,
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弗格森平均每年、对每人
04:29
per person, per year,
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发出两个以上逮捕令，
04:31
mostly for unpaid debt to the courts.
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大多数是为了未向法庭支付的欠债。
04:34
When I imagine what that would feel like
if, every time I left my house,
if, every time I left my house,
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当我想象一下那种感觉：
每次离开家
每次离开家
04:39
there was a chance a police officer
would run my license plate,
would run my license plate,
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都有可能有警察查我车牌，
04:42
see a warrant for unpaid debt,
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看到未支付欠款的逮捕令，
04:43
seize my body they way the did in DC
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然后像特区警察一样控制我身体，
04:46
and then take me to a jail cell,
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然后把我送进牢房，
04:47
I feel a little sick.
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我觉得有点恶心。
04:50
I've met many of the people in Ferguson
who have experienced this,
who have experienced this,
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我见过很多的经历了这些的
弗格森人，
弗格森人，
04:54
and I've heard some of their stories.
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我也听到了一些他们的故事。
04:55
In Ferguson's jail,
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在弗格森拘留所，
04:57
in each small cell,
there's a bunk bed and a toilet,
there's a bunk bed and a toilet,
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每个小牢房里，
有一个双层床和一个马桶
有一个双层床和一个马桶
05:00
but they'd pack four people
into each cell.
into each cell.
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但他们给每个牢房挤进四个人。
05:02
So there'd be two people on the bunks
and two people on the floor,
and two people on the floor,
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那么就会有两个人在床上，
两个人在地上
两个人在地上
05:05
one with nowhere to go except
right next to the filthy toilet,
right next to the filthy toilet,
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地上的其中一个
只能待在污秽的马桶旁边
只能待在污秽的马桶旁边
05:08
which was never cleaned.
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一个从不清洗的马桶。
05:09
In fact, the whole cell was never cleaned,
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其实，整个牢房都从不清洗，
05:12
so the floor and the walls were lined
with blood and mucus.
with blood and mucus.
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地板和墙壁满是血和粘液。
05:16
No water to drink,
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没有饮用水，
05:17
except coming out of a spigot
connected to the toilet.
connected to the toilet.
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只有连在马桶上的水龙头出水。
05:19
The water looked and tasted dirty,
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水看上去很脏，喝着也脏，
05:21
there was never enough food,
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食物永远不够，
05:23
never any showers,
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没有机会洗澡，
05:24
women menstruating
without any hygiene products,
without any hygiene products,
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女性经期没有卫生用品，
05:27
no medical attention whatsoever.
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没有医疗，什么都没有。
05:29
When I asked a woman
about medical attention,
about medical attention,
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当我问一名女性关于医疗关注的事，
05:31
she laughed, and she said, "Oh, no, no.
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她大笑，她说：“噢，不，不
05:34
The only attention you get
from the guards in there is sexual."
from the guards in there is sexual."
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在这，你从狱警得到的唯一关注
是性。”
是性。”
05:37
So, they'd take the debtors
to this place and they'd say,
to this place and they'd say,
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所以，警察把欠债人带到这里，说
05:40
"We're not letting you leave
until you make a payment on your debt."
until you make a payment on your debt."
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“把债付清之前不会让你走的。”
05:44
And if you could -- if you
could call a family member
could call a family member
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如果你可以打电话,
05:46
who could somehow come up with some money,
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找个能拿出点钱的家人,
05:48
then maybe you were out.
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也许你能出狱.
05:50
If it was enough money, you were out.
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如果钱足够，你就出狱
05:52
But if it wasn't, you'd stay there
for days or weeks,
for days or weeks,
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但如果不行，你会在那等数天，
数个星期,
数个星期,
05:55
and every day the guards
would come down to the cells
would come down to the cells
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每天狱警会来牢房，
05:58
and haggle with the debtors
about the price of release that day.
about the price of release that day.
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与欠债人讨论，
当天释放出狱的价钱。
当天释放出狱的价钱。
06:02
You'd stay until, at some point,
the jail would be booked to capacity,
the jail would be booked to capacity,
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你会一直等到，牢房住满了
06:06
and they'd want to book someone new in.
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而他们还想关些新人进去。
06:08
And at that point, they'd think,
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那时他们就会考虑，
06:10
"OK, it's unlikely this person
can come up with the money,
can come up with the money,
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“好吧，这个人可能拿不出钱来，
新来的更有可能掏钱。”
06:13
it's more likely this new person will."
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那么你出去，他们进，
机器就一直这样运行。
机器就一直这样运行。
06:14
You're out, they're in,
and the machine kept moving like that.
and the machine kept moving like that.
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06:17
I met a man who,
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我遇到一名男性，
06:20
nine years ago, was arrested
for panhandling in a Walgreens.
for panhandling in a Walgreens.
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他九年前因为在便利店里乞讨被捕。
06:24
He couldn't afford his fines
and his court fees from that case.
and his court fees from that case.
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他交不起那案子的罚款和诉讼费。
06:28
When he was young
he survived a house fire,
he survived a house fire,
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他小时候从火灾中，
06:31
only because he jumped out
of the third-story window to escape.
of the third-story window to escape.
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因为跳出三楼窗户逃生才幸存。
06:34
But that fall left him
with damage to his brain
with damage to his brain
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但那次跳窗伤到他的大脑
06:36
and several parts of this body,
including his leg.
including his leg.
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以及身体几处，包括腿。
06:39
So he can't work,
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所以他不能工作，
06:40
and he relies on social security
payments to survive.
payments to survive.
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他依赖社会保险费生存。
06:42
When I met him in his apartment,
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当我在他住所见他时，
06:44
he had nothing of value there --
not even food in his fridge.
not even food in his fridge.
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他家没有任何值钱东西，
冰箱甚至没有食物。
冰箱甚至没有食物。
06:47
He's chronically hungry.
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他长期挨饿，
06:48
He had nothing of value in his apartment
except a small piece of cardboard
except a small piece of cardboard
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住所里唯一有价值的东西
是一小块纸板，
是一小块纸板，
06:52
on which he'd written
the names of his children.
the names of his children.
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上面写着他孩子们的名字。
06:54
He cherished this a lot.
He was happy to show it to me.
He was happy to show it to me.
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他视若珍宝，
非常高兴地拿给我看。
非常高兴地拿给我看。
06:56
But he can't pay his fines and fees
because he has nothing to give.
because he has nothing to give.
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但是他一无所有，付不起罚款和
诉讼费。
诉讼费。
07:00
In the last nine years,
he's been arrested 13 times,
he's been arrested 13 times,
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在过去九年，他被拘留13次
07:03
and jailed for a total of 130 days
on that panhandling case.
on that panhandling case.
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坐牢总共130天，
就为了那件乞讨的案子。
就为了那件乞讨的案子。
07:08
One of those stretches lasted 45 days.
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那些拘留中有一次持续了45天。
07:11
Just imagine spending from right now
until sometime in June
until sometime in June
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请想象一下，从现在到六月的某天，
07:16
in the place that I described to you
a few moments ago.
a few moments ago.
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在我刚才向你描述的地方度过这段时间。
07:20
He told me about all the suicide attempts
he's seen in Ferguson's jail;
he's seen in Ferguson's jail;
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4081
他跟我说了在弗格森监狱见过的所有
自杀行为；
自杀行为；
一次，一个男人想办法
07:24
about the time a man found
a way to hang himself
a way to hang himself
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在其他犯人够不着的地方上吊。
07:27
out of reach of the other inmates,
167
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1660
07:28
so all they could do
was yell and yell and yell,
was yell and yell and yell,
168
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所以大家能做的就是喊啊，
喊啊，喊啊，
喊啊，喊啊，
试图让狱警注意到上吊的人
07:31
trying to get the guards' attention
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来牢房把他绳子切断救下他。
07:33
so they could come down and cut him down.
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他告诉我，过了五分钟
狱警才回应，
狱警才回应，
07:35
And he told me that it took the guards
over five minutes to respond,
over five minutes to respond,
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等他们到时，
上吊的人已经昏迷。
上吊的人已经昏迷。
07:39
and when they came,
the man was unconscious.
the man was unconscious.
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狱警叫来医生，医生到了牢房。
07:41
So they called the paramedics
and the paramedics went to the cell.
and the paramedics went to the cell.
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07:44
They said, "He'll be OK,"
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1332
说：“他会没事的”
07:45
so they just left him there on the floor.
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2204
然后就把他留在地板上不管了。
我听过很多这样的故事，
所以他们不应该惊到我
所以他们不应该惊到我
07:48
I heard many stories like this
and they shouldn't have surprised me,
and they shouldn't have surprised me,
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因为自杀是地方拘留所中的
唯一主导死因。
唯一主导死因。
07:51
because suicide is the single leading
cause of death in our local jails.
cause of death in our local jails.
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3552
07:55
This is related to the lack
of mental health care in our jails.
of mental health care in our jails.
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这有关拘留所中非常缺乏的
心理健康护理。
心理健康护理。
07:58
I met a woman, single mother of three,
making seven dollars an hour.
making seven dollars an hour.
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我见过一名女性，三个孩子的单亲妈妈，
每小时挣七美元。
每小时挣七美元。
08:02
She relies on food stamps
to feed herself and her children.
to feed herself and her children.
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2792
她靠粮票养活自己和孩子们。
08:06
About a decade ago,
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1544
大约十年前，
08:07
she got a couple of traffic tickets
and a minor theft charge,
and a minor theft charge,
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3765
她拿到两张交通罚单，
和一个轻微偷窃罪
和一个轻微偷窃罪
08:11
and she can't afford her fines
and fees on those cases.
and fees on those cases.
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她交不起罚款和那些案子的诉讼费。
08:14
Since then, she's been jailed
about 10 times on those cases,
about 10 times on those cases,
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3500
从那时候起，
她因这些案子被关进牢房大约10次。
她因这些案子被关进牢房大约10次。
08:18
but she has schizophrenia
and bipolar disorder,
and bipolar disorder,
185
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2283
但她患有精神分裂症和躁郁症，
08:20
and she needs medication every day.
186
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2151
每天都需要吃药，
08:22
She doesn't have access
to those medications in Ferguson's jail,
to those medications in Ferguson's jail,
187
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3038
在弗格森监狱她拿不到药物，
08:25
because no one has access
to their medications.
to their medications.
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2216
因为没有任何人能拿到自己的药。
08:28
She told me about what it was like
to spend two weeks in a cage,
to spend two weeks in a cage,
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4026
她告诉我在一个笼子里关两个星期
是怎样的，
是怎样的，
08:32
hallucinating people and shadows
and hearing voices,
and hearing voices,
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500084
3553
神志不清的她幻视到人，影子，幻听，
08:35
begging for the medication
that would make it all stop,
that would make it all stop,
191
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2594
她不停乞求能治疗这些症状的药物，
08:38
only to be ignored.
192
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1370
但总是被忽略。
08:40
And this isn't anomalous, either:
193
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1846
这并不是特例，
08:42
thirty percent of women in our local jails
have serious mental health needs
have serious mental health needs
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3525
地方监狱中，百分之三十的女性
有严重心理健康问题，
有严重心理健康问题，
08:45
just like hers,
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1156
就像刚才那位女性，
08:46
but only one in six receives
any mental health care while in jail.
any mental health care while in jail.
196
514969
4517
但只有六分之一能在监狱里
获得心理健康护理。
获得心理健康护理。
08:51
And so, I heard all these stories
about this grotesque dungeon
about this grotesque dungeon
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我听过关于这所“恐怖地牢”的
所有故事，
所有故事，
08:55
that Ferguson was operating
for its debtors,
for its debtors,
198
523359
2198
这所弗格森为其欠债人运营的监狱，
08:57
and when it came time
for me to actually see it
for me to actually see it
199
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2293
当我真正见到它时
08:59
and to go visit Ferguson's jail,
200
527898
1954
造访弗格森监狱时，
09:01
I'm not sure what I was expecting to see,
201
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2040
我虽不确定自己会见到什么，
09:03
but I wasn't expecting this.
202
531940
1954
但我没想到这个。
09:06
It's an ordinary government building.
203
534495
1839
它所是正常的政府建筑
09:08
It could be a post office or a school.
204
536358
2456
看起来也可以是邮局或学校。
它提醒我，这些非法勒索行为
09:10
It reminded me that these illegal
extortion schemes
extortion schemes
205
538838
3692
09:14
aren't being run somewhere in the shadows,
206
542554
2088
并不是在阴影中运作，
09:16
they're being run out in the open
by our public officials.
by our public officials.
207
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2716
它们正由公职人员公开运作。
09:19
They're a matter of public policy.
208
547406
1700
它们是公共政策的问题。
09:21
And this reminded me
that poverty jailing in general,
that poverty jailing in general,
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549130
2839
这提醒我，普遍来说，
关押穷人，
关押穷人，
09:23
even outside the debtors' prison context,
210
551993
2208
甚至在债务人监狱的情况之外，
09:26
plays a very visible and central role
in our justice system.
in our justice system.
211
554225
2921
在我们的司法系统里
扮演非常明显的中心角色。
扮演非常明显的中心角色。
09:29
What I have in mind is our policy of bail.
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2212
我想到的是我们的保释政策。
在我们的系统中，
无论你被拘留还是释放
无论你被拘留还是释放
09:32
In our system, whether
you're detained or free,
you're detained or free,
213
560054
2552
09:34
pending trial is not a matter
of how dangerous you are
of how dangerous you are
214
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3130
等候审判并不有关你多危险，
09:37
or how much of a flight risk you pose.
215
565784
2248
也有关你带来多大威胁，
09:40
It's a matter of whether you can afford
to post your bail amount.
to post your bail amount.
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568056
3086
而是看你是否能负担保释金额度。
09:43
So Bill Cosby, whose bail
was set at a million dollars,
was set at a million dollars,
217
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2712
因此，面对一百万美元的保释金
比尔·考斯比
比尔·考斯比
09:45
immediately writes the check,
and doesn't spend a second in a jail cell.
and doesn't spend a second in a jail cell.
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3460
立即写支票，完全不用进牢房。
09:49
But Sandra Bland, who died in jail,
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577386
1732
但是， Sandra Bland
死在拘留所里
死在拘留所里
09:51
was only there because her family
was unable to come up with 500 dollars.
was unable to come up with 500 dollars.
220
579142
3998
仅仅因为她家里拿不出500美元。
09:55
In fact, there are half a million
Sandra Blands across the country --
Sandra Blands across the country --
221
583164
3387
事实上，全国有50万个
Sandra Bland,
Sandra Bland,
09:58
500,000 people who are in jail right now,
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2266
此刻被关在拘留所里
有500,000人，
有500,000人，
10:00
only because they can't afford
their bail amount.
their bail amount.
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2661
仅仅是因为支付不起保释金。
10:03
We're told that our jails
are places for criminals,
are places for criminals,
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3057
我们被告知，拘留所是
关押罪犯的地方，
关押罪犯的地方，
10:06
but statistically that's not the case:
225
594631
2013
但统计数据不是这样的：
10:08
three out of every five people
in jail right now are there pretrial.
in jail right now are there pretrial.
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4301
此刻，拘留所每五个人中
有三个是审判前的状态。
有三个是审判前的状态。
10:12
They haven't been convicted of any crime;
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2182
他们还没有被定罪，
10:15
they haven't pled guilty to any offense.
228
603199
2511
他们没有对任何犯罪行为认罪。
10:18
Right here in San Francisco,
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1344
就在旧金山本地，
10:19
85 percent of the inmates
in our jail in San Francisco
in our jail in San Francisco
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3390
旧金山拘留所中85%的犯人
10:23
are pretrial detainees.
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1744
是审判前的被拘留者。
10:24
This means San Francisco is spending
something like 80 million dollars
something like 80 million dollars
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3385
这意味着旧金山市每年花费
10:28
every year
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1170
大约8千万美元
10:29
to fund pretrial detention.
234
617504
1716
用于审判前的拘留。
10:33
Many of these people who are in jail
only because they can't post bail
only because they can't post bail
235
621240
4419
这些人中的许多人，
仅仅因为不能付保释金而坐牢，
仅仅因为不能付保释金而坐牢，
10:37
are facing allegations so minor
236
625683
2246
他们被起诉的原因很轻微，
10:39
that the amount of time it would take
for them to sit waiting for trial
for them to sit waiting for trial
237
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3383
以至于他们坐等审判花掉的时间
10:43
is longer than the sentence
they would receive if convicted,
they would receive if convicted,
238
631360
3052
比认罪后被判的时间还长，
10:46
which means they're guaranteed
to get out faster
to get out faster
239
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2268
也就是说，如果认罪，
其实可以保证自己更快离开拘留所。
10:48
if they just plead guilty.
240
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1284
10:50
So now the choice is:
241
638036
1559
所以现在的选择是：
10:51
Should I stay here in this horrible place,
242
639619
2873
我应该留在这个恐怖的地方
10:54
away from my family and my dependents,
243
642516
2110
远离家人和孩子们
10:56
almost guaranteed to lose my job,
244
644650
2477
几乎确定要丢工作
10:59
and then fight the charges?
245
647151
1621
那样打这场官司？
11:00
Or should I just plead guilty to whatever
the prosecutor wants and get out?
the prosecutor wants and get out?
246
648796
3569
还是应该对检察官给的罪名都认罪，
然后出狱？
然后出狱？
11:04
And at this point, they're pretrial
detainees, not criminals.
detainees, not criminals.
247
652389
2935
此时此刻，他们是审判前被拘留者，
而不是罪犯。
而不是罪犯。
可是一旦认罪，
我们就称之为罪犯了。
我们就称之为罪犯了。
11:07
But once they take that plea deal,
we'll call them criminals,
we'll call them criminals,
248
655348
2892
但是有钱人从不会处于这样的境况
11:10
even though an affluent person
would never have been in this situation,
would never have been in this situation,
249
658264
3380
因为有钱人会很容易地被保释出去。
11:13
because an affluent person
would have simply been bailed out.
would have simply been bailed out.
250
661668
2874
此时你可能会想，
11:16
At this point you might be wondering,
251
664566
2090
11:18
"This guy's in the inspiration section,
what is he doing --
what is he doing --
252
666680
2794
“这家伙本应是激励演讲啊，
他干啥呢？”
他干啥呢？”
11:21
(Laughter)
253
669498
1160
（笑声）
11:22
"This is extremely depressing.
I want my money back."
I want my money back."
254
670682
2806
“这太压抑了，我要退钱。”
11:25
(Laughter)
255
673512
1206
（笑声）
11:26
But in actuality,
256
674742
2399
但实际上，
11:29
I find talking about jailing much less
depressing than the alternative,
depressing than the alternative,
257
677165
4390
我发现与其它方式相比，
谈一谈拘留比较不压抑，
谈一谈拘留比较不压抑，
11:33
because I think if we don't talk
about these issues
about these issues
258
681579
2436
因为如果我们不去说出这些问题，
11:36
and collectively change
how we think about jailing,
how we think about jailing,
259
684039
2401
从而集体改变我们对拘留的看法，
11:38
at the end of all of our lives,
260
686464
1504
那么在我们生命终结时，
11:39
we'll still have jails full of poor people
who don't belong there.
who don't belong there.
261
687992
3131
监狱里仍将关满了
本不该在那的穷人。
本不该在那的穷人。
11:43
That really is depressing to me.
262
691147
1554
那对我来说真的太压抑了。
11:44
But what's exciting to me is the thought
that these stories can move us
that these stories can move us
263
692725
3424
但让我兴奋的是，
这些故事推动我们
这些故事推动我们
从不同方面思考一下监禁这件事。
11:48
to think about jailing in different terms.
264
696173
2043
11:50
Not in sterile policy terms
like "mass incarceration,"
like "mass incarceration,"
265
698240
3371
并不是用枯燥的政策用语，
比如“大规模监禁”
比如“大规模监禁”
11:53
or "sentencing of nonviolent offenders,"
266
701635
1986
或者“非暴力罪犯的量刑”，
11:55
but in human terms.
267
703645
1166
而是从人的角度。
11:56
When we put a human being in a cage
for days or weeks or months
for days or weeks or months
268
704835
4585
当我们把一个人关进笼子，
数天、数周、数月
数天、数周、数月
12:01
or even years,
269
709444
1444
甚至数年
12:02
what are we doing
to that person's mind and body?
to that person's mind and body?
270
710912
2349
我们在对这个人的心灵和身体
做些什么？
做些什么？
12:05
Under what conditions
are we really willing to do that?
are we really willing to do that?
271
713285
2758
在什么条件下，
我们才真的想要那么做？
我们才真的想要那么做？
12:08
And so if starting with a few
hundred of us in this room,
hundred of us in this room,
272
716569
2806
如果从这会场的几百个人开始
12:11
we can commit to thinking about
jailing in this different light,
jailing in this different light,
273
719399
3044
大家可以承诺开始思考监禁，
12:14
then we can undo that normalization
I was referring to earlier.
I was referring to earlier.
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然后我们可以去掉
我之前提到的正常化。
我之前提到的正常化。
12:17
If I leave you with anything today,
I hope it's with the thought
I hope it's with the thought
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如果我今天启发了你们，
我希望是这种想法：
我希望是这种想法：
12:21
that if we want anything
to fundamentally change --
to fundamentally change --
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如果想要任何事从根本上改变，
12:23
not just to reform our policies
on bail and fines and fees --
on bail and fines and fees --
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而不是仅仅改革保释、罚款、费用，
12:26
but also to make sure that whatever
new policies replace those
new policies replace those
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而是要确保替代它们的新政策
12:29
don't punish the poor and the marginalized
in their own new way.
in their own new way.
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不会用新的方式去惩罚穷人和
边缘化群体。
边缘化群体。
12:32
If we want that kind of change,
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如果我们想要的是这种改变
12:34
then this shift in thinking
is required of each of us.
is required of each of us.
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那么变化思考方式
是我们每一个人都需要的。
是我们每一个人都需要的。
12:37
Thank you.
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谢谢。
12:38
(Applause)
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（掌声）
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Salil Dudani - Legal activistSalil Dudani has experienced the legal system from two vantage points: being detained by D.C. police on suspicion of "terrorist activity," and working as an investigator with civil rights lawyers challenging poverty-jailing.
Why you should listen
As a John Gardner Public Service fellow, Salil Dudani worked on civil rights cases challenging debtors' prisons and money bail. These included cases in Ferguson, Missouri, where people who could not pay fines and court fees were routinely jailed; Rutherford County, Tennessee, where a private probation company would extort impoverished probationers with the threat of jail; and San Francisco and Houston, where thousands of people are in jail cells every night because they cannot afford to post bail. Before this work, Salil was a defense investigator at the Public Defender Service in Washington, D.C. He is now a student at Yale Law School.
Salil Dudani | Speaker | TED.com